Malevolent1

@warlordeternal: Not seeing how Mongul last long against Tyrant here... dude took out several heralds, Gladiator and Beta Ray Bill without much effort at all. I'm supposed to believe Mongul is in the same category? I'd have to see some convincing scans...

I think speed kills in any battle forum, particularly if all other things are equal. Seems I saw scans of Lobo moving at FTL speeds and kicking Superman's butt. That's been some time ago, and I've never read the book, therefore I can't validate...but...

I DO know Gladiator is in an elite category of superheroes that can move and think and react while time is frozen:

These scans, from Fantastic Four 339, give the context for the scan below

Many remember this fight...what I missed about it the first time I read it. Because I was geeking out about the fight between Gladiator and Thor, I didn't catch the context the first time around...tech allows Thor and the FF and Iron Man to move around and think and react while time is frozen...Gladiator does it on sheer speed. He is right up there with the Silver Surfer and The Flash (Wally West) in terms of reaction/combat speed. Unless someone can show me scans of Lobo doing the same, I guess I gotta go with Gladiator.

Honestly, I don't know anything about DC's Ares...but I've heard he pimp slapped Wonder Woman around, which is impressive enough for me.

But with Odin, who is a confirmed galaxy buster? Seriously?

Above, Odin's fight with Seth. Not sure how Thanos and Darkseid against Odin AND Ares can pull this off. Gotta go with Odin and Ares.

@lorbo: Well, no doubt, I think that is why Marvel has been more popular than DC characters and they have so many blockbusters year after year...like you said, and like Stan Lee said, characters with "feet of clay". I still geek out on old issues of the Fantastic Four, with Ben's...ahem...witticisms....dude makes me laugh, but the guy has a heart of gold and the courage of a lion. I read DC early on when I was a kid and promptly departed from DC at that time because the characters were a) corny, b) Superman ALWAYS has to win, c) and they had annoying side-kicks. Then a friend of mine turned me on to Thor and I was hooked. One thing led to another and before you know it, I was reading FF, Defenders, Silver Surfer, X-men, etc...I couldn't get enough. I have since started reading some DC titles again (they finally caught on!). But you're right, one of the reasons Iron Man is so popular at the movie theater is for the reasons Robert Downey junior indicated in the video....yes, the man has feet of clay...and he struggled with some addictions of his own...but so did Stark, see? The man is perfect for the job. Can't wait for the third Iron Man!!

LONG LIVE MARVEL!!!

@isaac_clarke said:

@vaeternus said:

Yeah, very likely isaac. MMH will mindrape SS...he did it to a reality warper, so ss wont be an issue...

Nonsensical ABC arguments in abundance. It's this complete denial and completely contradictory attitude here that makes an argument with you entirely pointless here.

The Surfer is far from defenseless against individuals attacking his mind, he's got the showings to prove that. He's even stood up to his very being being manipulated - which a shout and a bit of power cosmic reminding himself who he is.

But what's the point if you're just going to play dumb because you can get away with it as you insist you're not trolling. Only by the sheer miracle of a glitch can you even post on your accounts and you're doing exactly what you did prior to the ban -to multiple posters in these forums - ignoring their points as you lead them on in an argument until they realize how entirely futile it is. You don't care what I write, because you can ignore it and mutter on things that are either not relevant, don't make sense or plainly lies.

Great post above. Incidentally, an enhanced Moondragon could not "mind-rape" the Silver Surfer (Infinity Crusade...), so how does MM get away with it? Having said that, I have not kept up with MM in New 52...I'm curious (question directed at any and everyone who sees this...), what feats does J'on have that didn't previously have?

@pfcoolio14:

A valid question.

Despite what many say on these forums say, the Flash is not the unbeatable character he's painted to be. A lot of his fans, who frequent these very forums, would have you believe he is. But he's not.

Now, having said that, ALL battles should be considered under these conditions, at all times:

1) each character bloodlusted/without morals...giving you their "A" game.

2) no PIS, atypical comic baloney (an example is given in the rules about a Superman comic lasting longer than two pages against some of his more mortal adversaries.

3) fight takes place on uninhabited planet approximately earth's gravity and atmosphere.

Too often, what the character "has done in the comic" is taken into consideration. It should not be. Why? Because, the PIS circumstances many of the stories are written under easily bleeds into a battle forums discussion. It should have absolutely NO PLACE on a battles forums.

Nevertheless, if Wally is considered under the circumstances indicated above, he will win a good portion of battle forum fights. Why? One word: speed. However, with the Flash character, his durability should always be part of the discussion. I understand that as a general rule, character's low showings should be omitted as "mulligans", or poor writing, take your pick...but Flash's showing of very human durability have been consistent from his first comic in 1987, when he was only a mach level speedster even until now that he has attained the status of 'poster boy for faster than light feats'.

The source of Flash's speed is the speed force, as well as all of the little tricks it affords him, including his vibratory powers, speed lending, speed steal, speed force dump, etc...however, like any energy source, that power can be siphoned away. This has happened to Wally on a few occasions. Additionally, at least one of Wally's adversaries generates a "negative speed force" (Professor Zoom I presume?). Some characters can mimic this power.

As a general rule, Wally should win a lot of battles under the above indicated circumstances. However, there are some that would consistently make short work of Wally under the same circumstances.

*EDIT: and one thing...around here, this is a very...DC oriented forum, just so you know. You'll get to know who they are. They tend to run around in packs. At any rate, I would encourage you to do your own research and arrive at your own conclusions. Amazon has entire runs of certain comic characters...I recently finished my fifth one (well, actually four, since one run I'd previously read...but decided to re-read...) You may have to do some searching, but they are out there.

Other than that, welcome to the Vine!

I recently re-read the entire run of the Silver Surfer, because I was debating this very topic a few months ago. The simple answer: he is faster than fast. What I mean by that is he is faster than is humanly quantifiable because when a character can travel so fast that they can control time, either moving the clock back...or moving it forward on sheer speed? That's ridiculously fast. However, the time for confession has come. In the past, I made assertions indicating that certain speed feats for the Silver Surfer were not related to hyperspace. And my confession now is NOT a guarantee of absolute accuracy. However, those feats that were debated did not indicate hyperspace anywhere.

What I failed to remember about hyperspace was this: it was invented by science fiction authors who wanted to lend credence to the idea that space craft could travel faster than the speed of light. How else could those ships travel such fantastically enormous distances without being able to move faster than light? In line with Einstein's Theory of Relativity, some author's also surmised that FTL speeds would make it impossible for the folks inside the space craft to interact with one another in real time...hence, the beauty of hyperspace, which not only would allow for faster than light travel but people on the craft could interact in real time as if the craft were not moving faster than the speed of light, and also, with little to no time dilation when they returned to normal space. Many question when the term hyperspace was used with reference to the Silver Surfer. It was his first appearance in Fantastic Four 48 (1966):

Many believe the term hyperspace to have first been used during John Byrne's one-shot, Silver Surfer from 1982:

Some on these forums some have asserted that the use of hyperspace with regard to the Silver Surfer was not regularly used until the mid 90's. Unfortunately, those folks are about to proven wrong. As the scans above clearly indicate, Stan and Jack were familiar with the term hyperspace when the character first appeared, as was John Byrne. When Stan decided to do a book featuring the Silver Surfer, the term "hyperspace" is strangely absent. However, many will remember that Norrin Radd's conscience and sense of humanity were awakened by Alicia Masters. The Surfer valiantly fought against his seemingly omnipotent master Galactus...unsuccessfully. In reprisal for his rebellion against his master, Galactus took away one of Norrin's greatest loves: roaming the endless cosmos and learning about the universe around him first hand, by removing his "space-time" powers:

How are we to understand the use of the term "space-time" powers? This would be a reference to the Surfer's ability to utilize hyperspace to travel even faster and further than he would be able to in normal space. Taking away his ability to enter hyperspace (hyperspace being a parallel dimension to ours) then would confine him to the vicinity of the earth with the people he fought so valiantly for. However, many may recall that in 1968, Stan decided it was time to unleash the Silver Surfer in his own mag. This he did with the great John Buscema illustrating. Many may also recall a particular issue, issue 6 to be exact, where the Surfer manages to figure out a way out of his little confinement. How? While hyperspace decidedly removes one from that current plane of existence, so does time travel. When a character can control time...essentially...control the hands of a clock while the world around him is frozen in THAT time line...that is fast. Below, the Silver Surfer does it on sheer speed alone:

So while hyperspace may have been the Surfer's preferred method of space travel, he is clearly not limited to light speed travel in hyperspace only. Not one time is the term hyperspace mentioned in the Silver Surfer's first run. However, the first run ended in 1970 after only 18 issues. It was not until 1987 that Steve Englehart was selected to helm the second run of the Silver Surfer. Clearly, Mr. Englehart had hyperspace in mind when he showcased the Silver Surfer's speed. Obviously, there will be discrepancies not only from writer to writer, but even by the same writer as evidenced below from Silver Surfer 2 (second volume):

During Englehart's run, there are numerous other references to hyperspace, including Silver Surfer 9, 15, 19 and 31. However, Silver Surfer Annuals 1, 2 and 3 all make references to hyperspace as well (3 however was written by Jim Starlin and Ron Marz). However, the only definition IN CONTINUITY of how the Silver Surfer enters hyperspace is in Englehart's reference to hyperspace in Annual 2 (written in 1989) which appears to be the opposite of what is indicated above:

This notion is later substantiated by Silver Surfer Annual 3, where Galactus (the narrator) explains the Surfer has the option of travelling in normal space and even hyperspace:

By issue 34, the team of Jim Starlin and Ron Lim (THE BEST SILVER SURFER ARTIST!) began their collaboration. Now, it's possible I missed, but to recollection, there is not one mention of hyperspace by Jim Starlin. It was Jim Starlin who wrote the Infinity Gauntlet. Adam Warlock in a last ditch effort to take away the gauntlet from Thanos, employs distraction with the other heroes. Finally, Captain America stands alone against Thanos. However, poised for action, over a light year away, is the Silver Surfer. Thanos raises his fist to strike Cap and....

Breathtaking speed (and reaction time to boot) by the Silver Surfer. Obviously, this could not have taken place in hyperspace. Hyperspace would effectively have put the Surfer in another dimension in relation to his target, Thanos, making a faster than light speed blitz irrelevant. In only a moment's time, Norrin Radd travels over a light year, just missing his mark, presumably at tens of millions of times the speed of light.

Right around this time, in issue 51, the Surfer tries to reason with Nova, Frankie Ray, to leave her service to Galactus. Unable to convince her with a "frontal assault", he appeals to her to "help" him, indicating he "needs" her help to go somewhere:

The final result?

Thereafter, Nova decides to leave her service to Galactus. And all without the use of hyperspace. Previously to this event, but after Silver Surfer 6, in Mighty Thor 193, the Surfer successfully traveled time in order to dispense with the mega threat, Durok, again on sheer speed.

However, fast forward in time now to issue 107 of the Silver Surfer and we find 3 references to hyperspace. In issue 109, with Legacy in tow, the Surfer decides to double time it from the Andurian galaxy to Galactus' Worldship in breathtaking fashion, albeit...hyperspace and a direct reference to "warp speed", an obvious reference to hyperspace. However, in issue 129, The Silver Surfer and Alicia Masters are buffeted in time by a "chronal wave"...all the way back to 1947. However, it was not until issue 131 that the Surfer and Alicia return to the present once more. However, they are able to interact with one another in "real time" despite the obviously staggering speeds required to time travel. How did they do it? Hyperspace, which would allow interaction in real time. Take note of Silver Surfer 15 and compare to issue 131, although hyperspace is not mentioned:

Above, the FF appear to be aware of their surroundings from hyperspace...in issue 131, Alicia and Norrin are able to converse with one another in real time despite the astronomical speed needed to achieve time travel. However, in Silver Surfer Annual 8, Thor and the Surfer battle Millenius. To get there, they must leave their "dimensional plane" and do so in only moments, and without the benefit of hyperspace:

Now some will refer to the appearance of the light that the two time travelers disappear into as an obvious reference to hyperspace. However, if one exceeds light speed alone, not to mention the speeds required to travel time, the average human would be incapable of perceiving this and they would apparently "disappear" from sight. Therefore, the supposed "portal of light" they are disappearing into is really just them disappearing from the human eye to follow. You will notice in the scan above, this apparent "disappearance" happens twice. One only needs to enter hyperspace once. The above are depictions of the characters disappearing from the human eye's ability to follow.

To sum up: the Surfer is outrageously fast. Only two or three characters may be faster to my mind: Makkari, The Runner and Zoom (Hunter Zolomon).

The Silver Surfer is capable of achieving faster than light speeds and even speeds fast enough to travel time on sheer speed alone. Hyperspace is only an option to get there even faster.

Heh. Lobo is immortal.

So is Bob essentially.

If win is determined by knockout, Lobo might have it. Can't validate, but thought I saw some scan of him with bonafide FTL reflexes. Can't validate though.

There are a number of incorrect notions on the Vine concerning the Silver Surfer's combat/reaction speed. Typically, he is classified at "nano-second" reaction time. A nano-second is billionth of a second. The distance light travels in a light nano-second is about 12 inches. The Surfer has two reaction feats designated as such. However, they are only the beginning of the Surfer's insane reaction speed.

With Jack of Hearts in tow, Surfer decides the best way to penetrate the craft's defenses? Blitz at over light speed! Again, clear evidence that the Surfer is able to seek and destroy at FTL speeds.

Starhawk is away at three times the speed of light...Surfer is able to track and intercept in only a moment.

Norrin's greatest reaction feats involve his ability to move and think and react while time travelling. Time was, when crossing the light speed barrier meant one was time travelling. The feats above indicate this to no longer be true. And while nano second reaction feats can be quantified by humans, they are still only quantifiable on this side of the time line. When one travels time, they are not travelling points in space. They are travelling points in time. From the standpoint of the character's perception, this becomes...strange. All the normal visual indicators become irrelevant when one time travels, because one is way, way beyond light speed at this point. For example, a bullet will strike it's target often before the sound of the gun reaches the ears of the person being hit. Same principle: all the normal visual cues that go along with traveling faster than light, or in this case, traveling fast enough to control time, are entirely different.

The scans above clearly show the Surfer is able to move and think and react at speeds fast enough to travel time. In Fantastic Four 156, realizing the life of (who he thinks is) Shalla Bal is in grave danger, the Surfer locks the Fantastic Four in a stasis beam and with breathtaking speed, literally freezes time with sheer speed, leaving New York and suddenly appearing on the horizon of Latveria to Dr Doom. In Mighty Thor 193, realizing neither he nor Thor are capable of dealing with Loki's creation Durok, he does the only thing he can: BFR's (battlefield removal) him...in a future time line no less. Incapable of dealing with the temporal buffeting, Durok loses consciousness and the Silver Surfer dumps him off thousands of years in the future. Therefore, as the scans clearly indicate, the Surfer is able to perceive his surroundings at time travelling speed and react during that time frame. Very few can equal The Silver Surfer in combat/reaction speed.

Both character's pinnacle of speed is time travel. Traveling time involves traveling points in TIME....not space. Therefore, the ability of a character to navigate time, solely on speed is different than the ability to of a character to move quickly traveling two random points of distance. How a character is able to perceive their surroundings at that speed differs slightly for each character. The speed force allows Wally to navigate time. The Silver Surfer's ultra senses allow him to navigate time travel. Each character is able to navigate at those speeds and therefore able to perceive their surroundings at such speeds and are able to react at those speeds: