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#101 Edited by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

Broly isnt canon so I just completely ignore those movies

#102 Posted by reikai (3418 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_last_son_of_czarnia said:

My one problem with the movie was that Goku should've played to Vegeta's ego more when it came time to defeat Broly. Would've made more sense than Vegeta just caving in for no apparent reason.

Also, a power level of 10,000 as a NEWBORN should be addressed.

Thing is Vegeta knew the stories and the history of the Saiyans. Nobody else did, except maybe the Kai's. So he knew better than anyone what the appearance of the Legendary Super Saiyan meant. Goku, Vegeta and everyone else had to work for their status. For Brolly it was natural. And his transformations are more unique.

Brolly is essentially a mutant among Saiyans. He is a once in three-thousand year figure. His immense PL at birth signified what he was. So there isn't anything to address. It's abnormal. Sort of like how half-saiyans are abnormal.

Gohan at age 5 had a pl of over 700, without training of any kind, and possessed a mysterious, unknowable rage. (well, when your mother force-feeds you books and doesn't give you a choice in life and you spend your entire childhood reading books and studying and your father is about as interested in that as counting grass clippings, maybe he had every right to be angry to the point of just wanting to destroy everything).

But essentially Brolly was a special case among Saiyans and King Vegeta's fear may very well have brought about the calamity that Brolly inflicted on the South Galaxy due to his decision to try and have Brolly killed. It's always been my belief that Brolly's hatred of Goku was only a result of his trauma at being stabbed as an infant and the only way his infant mind could cope was to subconsciously connect Goku's wailing that upset him with the shock of nearly dying. If it wasn't for that, Brolly may never have gone insane.

If you think of it that way, if Paragus or even Brolly's mother (who is never explored) had taken Brolly away from the planet before King Vegeta issued his kill order, he may have ended up as the universes greatest enforcer rather than a mad destroyer. Hell he could've effortlessly killed Freeza and without Freeza and Cold hitting up Earth, Cell's progress would've been greatly diminished without the genetic information from them.

Anyway, that's just a huge what if.

#103 Edited by The_PAIN (719 posts) - - Show Bio

Broly isnt canon so I just completely ignore those movies

I think that we cannot do that because he is the subject of OP

#104 Posted by TifaLockhart (13830 posts) - - Show Bio

I was referring more to the whole "why should I give my energy to a lower ranking Saiyan"

#105 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_pain: yea i know, so people have to talk about it BUT in actuality, there is no such thing as Broly in canon DBZ

#106 Posted by TifaLockhart (13830 posts) - - Show Bio

It's no different from using an elseworlds or what if character.

#107 Edited by reikai (3418 posts) - - Show Bio

Technically he does exist since DBZ is a multiverse. Brolly just exists in an Alternate Universe. BoG makes mention of 12 Gods of Destruction and Twelve Universes. Mirai (Future) Trunks' timeline is different from that of the Main Timeline, which proves the existence of alternate realities/timelines. Brolly just exists in one of those where the power system is different from the Main Universe stories.

#108 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

@reikai: broly wasnt created by akiro toriyama therefore He's not a DBZ character to me.

#109 Posted by TifaLockhart (13830 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel the same way about New 52.

#110 Edited by OverLordArgeist (5245 posts) - - Show Bio

@reikai said:

@the_last_son_of_czarnia said:

My one problem with the movie was that Goku should've played to Vegeta's ego more when it came time to defeat Broly. Would've made more sense than Vegeta just caving in for no apparent reason.

Also, a power level of 10,000 as a NEWBORN should be addressed.

Thing is Vegeta knew the stories and the history of the Saiyans. Nobody else did, except maybe the Kai's. So he knew better than anyone what the appearance of the Legendary Super Saiyan meant. Goku, Vegeta and everyone else had to work for their status. For Brolly it was natural. And his transformations are more unique.

Brolly is essentially a mutant among Saiyans. He is a once in three-thousand year figure. His immense PL at birth signified what he was. So there isn't anything to address. It's abnormal. Sort of like how half-saiyans are abnormal.

Gohan at age 5 had a pl of over 700, without training of any kind, and possessed a mysterious, unknowable rage. (well, when your mother force-feeds you books and doesn't give you a choice in life and you spend your entire childhood reading books and studying and your father is about as interested in that as counting grass clippings, maybe he had every right to be angry to the point of just wanting to destroy everything).

But essentially Brolly was a special case among Saiyans and King Vegeta's fear may very well have brought about the calamity that Brolly inflicted on the South Galaxy due to his decision to try and have Brolly killed. It's always been my belief that Brolly's hatred of Goku was only a result of his trauma at being stabbed as an infant and the only way his infant mind could cope was to subconsciously connect Goku's wailing that upset him with the shock of nearly dying. If it wasn't for that, Brolly may never have gone insane.

If you think of it that way, if Paragus or even Brolly's mother (who is never explored) had taken Brolly away from the planet before King Vegeta issued his kill order, he may have ended up as the universes greatest enforcer rather than a mad destroyer. Hell he could've effortlessly killed Freeza and without Freeza and Cold hitting up Earth, Cell's progress would've been greatly diminished without the genetic information from them.

Anyway, that's just a huge what if.

Your what if scenario is interesting, indeed Broly even as a child is impressive. King Vegeta should have hidden him from Freeza's eyes instead of playing the insecure monarch.

Here is the PARADOX, would broly attain LSSJ if he is not in his homicidal state.

#111 Posted by reikai (3418 posts) - - Show Bio

@overlordarhas said:

Your what if scenario is interesting, indeed Broly even as a child is impressive. King Vegeta should have hidden him from Freeza's eyes instead of playing the insecure monarch.

Here is the PARADOX, would broly attain LSSJ if he is not in his homicidal state.

It's still quite possible. Usually there is some kind of trigger. But since Brolly is already a special case. it may be something he is naturally gifted at doing. Before the control circlet broke he'd never used that form before. It's a form only he possesses as the Legendary Super Saiyan. Besides, Goku and Vegeta both attained SS2 through training over a traumatic experience like Gohan. Goku even learned SS3 through meditation.

#112 Posted by OverLordArgeist (5245 posts) - - Show Bio

@reikai said:

@overlordarhas said:

Your what if scenario is interesting, indeed Broly even as a child is impressive. King Vegeta should have hidden him from Freeza's eyes instead of playing the insecure monarch.

Here is the PARADOX, would broly attain LSSJ if he is not in his homicidal state.

It's still quite possible. Usually there is some kind of trigger. But since Brolly is already a special case. it may be something he is naturally gifted at doing. Before the control circlet broke he'd never used that form before. It's a form only he possesses as the Legendary Super Saiyan. Besides, Goku and Vegeta both attained SS2 through training over a traumatic experience like Gohan. Goku even learned SS3 through meditation.

I see some similarity between Broly and SBP, potential that came to waste.

BTW, the LSSJ in the Saiyan Myth is Bardock

#113 Posted by reikai (3418 posts) - - Show Bio

Bardock being the LSSJ in the past may or may not be true since we don't know how far into the past he was flung, and I believe it was said that Chilled was Freeza's Grandfather or something along those lines. What happens with Bardock was never really full explained...nor even partly. Liike how he ended up back in time to begin with,

I think that was more done along the premise of the Dragonball Online story with there being multiple cracks time where people and things have ended up in different times and places as a result of temporal interference from the prime villain in the games timeline. It also has Mirai Trunks who had formed a task force called the Time Police to help fix things and prevent this time-traveling group from taking over the universe.

It starts in the year 1000, which is 200+yrs after the end of DBZ, and some of the games heroes/figures end up there from different eras in time. It is something I would like to play sometime. Still hoping they'll someday allow it to be downloaded in english.

I liked the 2nd cinematic opening where it's at the Budokai Tournament. Really does make you want to play.

#114 Posted by OverLordArgeist (5245 posts) - - Show Bio

@reikai: Yeah, but the stigma in Freeza's family concerning SSJ start with Chilled's death.

#115 Edited by alcoholbob (1190 posts) - - Show Bio

Maximum power godomp

#116 Edited by OverLordArgeist (5245 posts) - - Show Bio

I was referring more to the whole "why should I give my energy to a lower ranking Saiyan"

The Pride of the SAIYAN PRINCE. The reason why Babidi almost took control of him, the irony of it all is, the same manage to bail him out.

#117 Edited by HereComesTheBoom_Headshot (321 posts) - - Show Bio

@reikai said:

Bardock being the LSSJ in the past may or may not be true since we don't know how far into the past he was flung, and I believe it was said that Chilled was Freeza's Grandfather or something along those lines.

Bold #1: It was clarified by Akira Toriyama that Bardock is indeed the LSSJ from the past.

Bold #2: Chilled is the ascendent of Frieza, but was never clarified more than that.

#118 Edited by OverLordArgeist (5245 posts) - - Show Bio

To be fair, Broly was starving, dehydrated and frozen in a comet for a decade. He woke up and still beat an SS2. That's on top of the further insulation that the movies aren't canon and therefore violate any number of DB basics.

In the second movie, I think he shielded himself unconsciously so that he would not freeze to death. Plus 7 years without food is something.

#119 Edited by The_PAIN (719 posts) - - Show Bio

@misterguyman said:

To be fair, Broly was starving, dehydrated and frozen in a comet for a decade. He woke up and still beat an SS2. That's on top of the further insulation that the movies aren't canon and therefore violate any number of DB basics.

In the second movie, I think he shielded himself unconsciously so that he would not freeze to death. Plus 7 years without food is something.

He still has his old battle wounds in the first movie, so he may not be fighting at full capacity

#120 Posted by reikai (3418 posts) - - Show Bio

@overlordarhas said:

In the second movie, I think he shielded himself unconsciously so that he would not freeze to death. Plus 7 years without food is something.

Actually what he did was subconsciously drain the ki and life force of the land around him while he was asleep in the ice. This lead to a seven year long drought in the region that nobody could explain. It's what enabled him to survive his hibernation over such a lengthy time and why his wounds had healed while frozen. If Goten hadn't pulled his little baby stunt, Brolly could've remained there indefinitely. Or at least until everything in that sector was dead.

Bold #1: It was clarified by Akira Toriyama that Bardock is indeed the LSSJ from the past.

Bold #2: Chilled is the ascendent of Frieza, but was never clarified more than that.

Not sure if Toriyama said that or not, but it is the reason why Freeza is afraid of the SSJ legend. Also, the TFS version was better.

#121 Posted by cyborgx (142 posts) - - Show Bio

I dunno, probably Vegeta? I don't think Broly should be much more powerful than SSJ2 Gohan (who was more powerful than all the other Z fighters combined, which was what beat Broly), and Majin Vegeta surpasses him in skill, power, and ruthlessness.

#122 Posted by SirMethos (1269 posts) - - Show Bio

Are we watching the same movie? It clearly said "has been shattered" to which king Kai said, "it's all gone"

Yea, not so much. That's the erroneous translation in the English dub.

In the original Japanese, the narrator, and King Kai, says as I quoted.

@inconvenient_truth said:

@reikai: broly wasnt created by akiro toriyama therefore He's not a DBZ character to me.

Actually, that's not entirely correct.

Toriyama designed both Broly and Bojack

Also, by Toriyama's own words, the movies are an alternate reality.

Toriyama has been involved with the creation of all the movies.

And again, the first Broly movie takes place in the wait before the Cell games, which puts his(broly's) power level accordingly.

Majin Vegeta is considerably more powerful than that. Not to mention his superior skill and experience.

#123 Edited by MisterGuyMan (1965 posts) - - Show Bio

Broly isn't canon so he can destroy a galaxy without falling into the normal power levels of the Cell games.

Whether he destroyed the entire galaxy is merely semantics. He obviously destroyed the vast majority of it already by the end of the intro:

By the time Goku got these Broly already left and Goku says Broly destroyed it:

Then there's the fact that if Broly really destroyed the galaxy over time then he absolutely speedblitzes Maijin Vegeta. Broly destroying the galaxy over time stomps the Broly that destroyed the galaxy quickly.

#124 Posted by P0rtal (856 posts) - - Show Bio

Broly is not a galaxy buster, it was a foreshadowing scene that was supposed to scare the fans into believing this was eventually going to happen. That was an image of the South Galaxy being imploded, yet the entire movie took place inside the South Galaxy. The original Japanese dub disproved it and King Kai said he would eventually do destroy each planet one by one. Having said that, Majin Vegeta would wreck Broly in the first movie. Broly would then Wreck Majin Vegeta in the second movie. SSJ2 Teen Gohan was weaker than Vegeta but surely able to physically harm him, yet was unable to do so with Broly. Brolys shield withstood the final blast but pushed him backwards into the sun at a few hundred times light speed, he didn't have much time to react to it after being caught off gaurd.

#125 Edited by MisterGuyMan (1965 posts) - - Show Bio

@p0rtal said:

Broly is not a galaxy buster, it was a foreshadowing scene that was supposed to scare the fans into believing this was eventually going to happen. That was an image of the South Galaxy being imploded, yet the entire movie took place inside the South Galaxy. The original Japanese dub disproved it and King Kai said he would eventually do destroy each planet one by one. Having said that, Majin Vegeta would wreck Broly in the first movie. Broly would then Wreck Majin Vegeta in the second movie. SSJ2 Teen Gohan was weaker than Vegeta but surely able to physically harm him, yet was unable to do so with Broly. Brolys shield withstood the final blast but pushed him backwards into the sun at a few hundred times light speed, he didn't have much time to react to it after being caught off gaurd.

Goku states that the galaxy was destroyed though. Moreover we never see the entirety to the galaxy during any point of the movie after the intro. Just because we see a few stars and a few planets can't be used as proof that the galaxy wasn't destroyed. Showing us a scene with the galaxy actually being destroyed though is strong proof. Is there any other evidence that it's foreshadowing?

#126 Edited by P0rtal (856 posts) - - Show Bio

Sure is a lot of evidence. The first is that the Galaxy dissolved, didn't blow up and I had a theory that I posted on line a long time ago that stated it was an anti spirit bomb technique, or something ki based. Instead of stealing a small bit of energy from all life, it stole most energy from most the stars in the galaxy. The second is that the original audio in japanese said this " the south galaxy is under attack" then King Kai says " So the south galaxy really is being destroyed, at this rate, even my north galaxy will be destroyed. The snap shot you posted was a mistranslation, actually a made up one. I can't even consider that a mistranslation lol. Its like saying banana originally, and then a dub editor says trash can...I can take it a step further than prove it via power levels.

Base

SSJ1 = 50x base

SSj2 = 2x SSJ1

SSJ3 = 4x SSJ2

SSJ4 = 10x SSJ3

Perfect Cell boasted about having the ability to one shot a solar system. In this case, if Cell could do that, so could Broly. To Cell, that was a huge boast and scare tactic. Over time Broly clearly did this, later in the movie Broly was shown uncontrolable and puttering around destroying planets and god knows what else. SSJ2 = roughly the assumed capability to destroy a Solar system. Our solar system is roughly 1 light year across without the Ort cloud counted, our galaxy is roughly 100,000 light years. With apparent struggle, perfect cell could wipe out 1 light years worth of space. He needs to be 100,000x as powerful to match Bills from the new movie in a casual sense, as Bills was confirmed as a true galaxy buster.

Broly in the first movie was undamaged by a SSJ1 but the combined half potentials of Piccolo ( SSj1 level ), SSJ1 Gohan, SSJ1 Trunks, SSJ1 Vegeta and Goku were enough to punch a hole in Broly. Later, Broly received a huge zenaki for almost dying and made SSJ2 Gohan a fool. However, the combined potential of a low level SSJ2 and SSJ1 Goten ( potentially SSJ1 Goku nobody knows for sure ) were still not enough to tank Broly. His shield was up, he didn't take any physical damage but was caught off gaurd, remeber broly cant sense power levels so he had no clue what was coming his way. He gets shot into the sun at a few hundred x light speed reaching it in a few seconds and gets incinerated via the sun, his power level likely instantly draining from the stress and then the blast blowing him to pieces.

SSj2 =/ Perfect Cell and can blow up at least 2x the solar system. Broly was almost killed by a low level SSJ2+SSj1 Goten. This likely puts him right on the level of Majin Vegeta and SSJ2 Goku in the Buu Saga. Odds are SUPER high that Brolys potential at that time was likely a good deal beyond that, not once did Broly struggle against SSJ2 Gohan. He was clearly holding back and toying, he got scared and put up his shield at the end of the movie. I think it is safe to say that Broly in that movie was roughly on par with SSJ3.

SSJ3 = 4x solar system buster at minimum.

SSj4 = 40x solar system buster

Omega Shenron - I don't know, maybe 70x? He seemed a bit weaker than Gogeta

SSJ4 Gogeta = 80x+ solar system buster at minimum ( how much did he show up Omega Shenron again? lol )

Bills = 100,000x solar system buster

Odin from Marvel = A Casual Galaxy buster like Bills as well.

Thanos tanked a Galactic level god blast from Odin and asked for more please. For reference and giggles, where does SSj2-SSJ3 destructive potential lay again? :)

Broly would need to be arond 25,000 times as powerful to reach galactic level destruction. Based on what we saw of Broly in the 2nd movie, he seems right on par with Majin Vegeta and the calcuations support it. However, he didn't at all seem to struggle against Gohan, whom really is not that much inferior to Vegeta. Could Gohan punch vegeta in the face during the buu saga and bruise him? You bet. Majin Vegeta is certainly not 2-3x as powerful as Gohan. Which puts Brolys potential far beyond that. The battle of Majin Vegeta vs Broly in the 2nd movie would be a bit of a slaughter. RIP Vegeta. Again.

#127 Posted by reikai (3418 posts) - - Show Bio

Calculations like that don't really work (and SS3 is 500x base) and other figures for GT don't even place the cast members very high. Omega Shenron was 2.9billion for PL. Which, as I have explained before, is just really, really dumb since a SS3 Goku should in fact be much stronger than that.

GT fails so hard because the Original Creator wasn't part of the writing process. They asked him for some character designs. He did them and went back to working on other projects. GT is just so terrible it's not funny. And if I were to take Goku's base level at the start of the Android Saga with the SS4 increase, his PL would be around 40billion. GT writers can't do math, nor keep things consistent.

Such with the Para-Para brothers, whose powers revolved around Sound and Music, which only moves at the Speed of Sound (Mach 1). Which shouldn't have even done anything to Goku, Trunks and Pan who should, by all estimations at this level, be in the FTL range of ability. Meaning exploding the boombox with a glance before any of that ridiculousness even started. And that whole garbage pile that was Lude.

#128 Edited by P0rtal (856 posts) - - Show Bio

Calculations work just fine, its the fanyboys who don't want to accept factual information. But, everyone knows thats common with DB fans...they just make up figures and powers every few seconds and pass it off as perfectly acceptable. SSJ3 is only 4x SSJ2, not 500x base. Its official. How can you debate. I don't consider GT to have actually occured but since SSJ4s power rating is official, why not include it for the giggles?

Gokus official power level at SSJ1 = 150 million

SSJ2 = 300 million

SSJ3 = 1.2 billion

SSJ4 = 12 billion or so.

Gogeta = at least 24 billion, with Omega Shenron a bit less. Where did you get 2.9 billion for Omega Shrenrons power level? Makes no sense at all to me, can you provide your calculations again?

Bills = 300,000,000,000 ( 300 trillion ) CASUALLY. I consider Brolys power around the level of an SSJ3 in his second movie. He needs to be 25,000x as powerful to perform on the level of Bills, which means he needs to up his power level 25,000 to around 300 trillion from his original 1.2 billion, just to begin to compare with Bills and SSJG Goku. Official ratings don't lie, only Goku extremists who make up numbers :) Even the dragonball wiki got the calculations wrong, but mine are based on SSJ1 Goku being 150million in the freeza saga. Dunno if thats authentic but it seems so. Based on that, my figures are perfect. Omega Shenron with a power level that low means the official ratings for each super saiyan level are not valid. Well, they are valid. As is Cells boast about blowing up a solar system ( in the manga, its official ) as is Bills having the power to one shot a galaxy casually )

#129 Posted by logy5000 (5525 posts) - - Show Bio

Why isn't this locked? Was it not announced to the vine that DBZ threads are banned?

#130 Posted by reikai (3418 posts) - - Show Bio

@p0rtal said:

Calculations work just fine, its the fanyboys who don't want to accept factual information.

Gokus official power level at SSJ1 = 150 million

That was only true for the time he was fighting Freeza on Namek when Goku's base level was 3million. He doesn't stay at a base of 3mil for the rest of the series. And Perfect Cell's pl was apparently set at 900million. If a SS2 is only 300mil, then Gohan and everyone else would've die instantly.

I used the "Revenge of Cooler" movie as a measuring stick for Goku. Since Cooler's Ultimate Form is clocked at 470mil and Goku as only a SSJ beat him, means Goku's PL as a SSJ had to be around 500mil at the time. Which means his Base Level had increased to 10mil since the SSJ increase is 50x base. And since this movie is timed in around before the start of the Android Saga, we have a base we can work with before the training in the Room of Spirit and Time he does before the Cell Games.

#131 Edited by Pope052 (2601 posts) - - Show Bio

@logy5000: Don't bother, alot of people on this site will just ignore it...

However, Majin Vegeta would make short work of Broly...

#132 Posted by reikai (3418 posts) - - Show Bio

Vegeta punches Brolly in the face

Brolly tilts his head slightly and just grins

Vegeta leaps back with a grimace and mutters; "God...damnit..Nappa."

Brolly then proceeds to kill Vegeta

And there was much rejoicing.

#133 Posted by P0rtal (856 posts) - - Show Bio

where was it ever stated that power levels change over time? Once again, with all due respect, made up feats and powers are tossed into the salad bowl as official or acceptable. In that case, its not at all acceptable. Also, there is in fact a set range between, ssj1 and ssj2. Goku for example would be able to obtain a higher level of SSJ1 over time, sure but its still not like in 50 years his SSJ1 will be stronger than ssj2 in the past. That is the entire point of SSJ levels and I am not sure some people understand that. Goku trains, breaks a barrier and ascends to a higher level because now SSj1 is inferior. Power levels in each level change only slightly. No SSJ1 can ever achieve more power than SSJ2.

Broly destroys Majin Vegeta. SSJ2 Gohan didn't stand a chance, Majin Vegeta is also an SSJ2 so why on earth would anyone assume Vegeta would take care of Broly? Lol. He would do a bit better than Gohan.

#134 Posted by MisterGuyMan (1965 posts) - - Show Bio

@p0rtal:

The problem with any SS calculations for Broly is that the entire movie isn't canon. They're set in alternate universe unless otherwise stated. So if Broly ever made his way into mainline Zverse we could discuss it. He's not part of that universe though.

That's why he can destroy a galaxy and be destroyed by a bunch of SS and a Super Namekian without altering the main timeline.

#135 Posted by reikai (3418 posts) - - Show Bio

Transformations just multiply their base levels. Base level increases over time via training. Stated and Proven through the entirety of the series. Otherwise Goku would still only have a PL of 420 from fighting Raditz in the beginning. Unless you want to suggest he was always at 3mil and having a hard time fighting Vegeta in Saiyan Saga who was 18thousand.

No SSJ1 can ever achieve more power than SSJ2.

Yeah, they can, if their base levels are different. Put it like this;

Saiyan (A) has a PL of 20million and can only go SSJ rank 1

Saiyan (B) has a PL of 10million and can go SSJ rank 2

SSJ rank 1 increases base PL by a factor of 50

SSJ rank 2 increases base PL by a factor of 100

Saiyan (A) increases from 20mil to 1billion

Saiyan (B) increases from 10million to 1billion

Saiyan (A) as a SSJ rank 1 has a Total PL = to Saiyan (B) as a SSJ rank 2

#136 Posted by MisterGuyMan (1965 posts) - - Show Bio

@reikai said:

Transformations just multiply their base levels. Base level increases over time via training. Stated and Proven through the entirety of the series. Otherwise Goku would still only have a PL of 420 from fighting Raditz in the beginning. Unless you want to suggest he was always at 3mil and having a hard time fighting Vegeta in Saiyan Saga who was 18thousand.

No SSJ1 can ever achieve more power than SSJ2.

Yeah, they can, if their base levels are different. Put it like this;

Saiyan (A) has a PL of 20million and can only go SSJ rank 1

Saiyan (B) has a PL of 10million and can go SSJ rank 2

SSJ rank 1 increases base PL by a factor of 50

SSJ rank 2 increases base PL by a factor of 100

Saiyan (A) increases from 20mil to 1billion

Saiyan (B) increases from 10million to 1billion

Saiyan (A) as a SSJ rank 1 has a Total PL = to Saiyan (B) as a SSJ rank 2

Just to emphasize the point Goku at the end of BoG was fighting Bills and doing well even in base form. Also Vegeta in SS2 did better than Mystic Gohan and arguably Goku in SS3.

#137 Posted by reikai (3418 posts) - - Show Bio

Just to emphasize the point Goku at the end of BoG was fighting Bills and doing well even in base form. Also Vegeta in SS2 did better than Mystic Gohan and arguably Goku in SS3.

Vegeta had a moment of Extreme Rage (much like Gohan had in his youth) that bolstered his abilities enough to surprise Birus, but only for a moment before Birus completely stomped him. As for Goku reversion, he still retained the GM power for a while and Birus' power was quickly draining. And note Goku had to use IT multiple times to get the drop on him

Also noted that Birus started off with only 70% of his power and that he would require further rest before he could use his total power. Goku still ended up losing. Another point was that Birus wasn't trying to kill Goku or any of them and was just there to entertain himself and see how good a SSJ God could be.

#138 Posted by MisterGuyMan (1965 posts) - - Show Bio

@reikai:

All true. Just wanted to show that the base power of Saiyans can still reach high levels.

#139 Edited by reikai (3418 posts) - - Show Bio

Base power of anyone can reach high levels. One of the reasons why Piccolo was so tough. Without transformations of his own he was comparable to a SSJ in the Android Saga.

A number of internal speculations believe he and others like Tien learned some form of the Kaioken on their own in order to bolster themselves more evenly and more sustainable without the aura. Only way to explain either of them doing so well against Cell's earlier forms. Piccolo in part due to merging with Kami and after training for Cell Games, said that "most of them" could beat Cell in his Semi-Perfect form once #18 was hacked up (which is somewhere around a Pl of 600mil).

#140 Edited by P0rtal (856 posts) - - Show Bio

This actually doesnt not at all matter in a debate against a canon and non canon character. Mute point, but understandable. Sorry, I disagree that any of their forms change in power over time. Base level means base level. Thats just about the worst logic ive ever read in a db debate, and that is SERIOUSLY saying something Reikai.

d@misterguyman said:

@p0rtal:

The problem with any SS calculations for Broly is that the entire movie isn't canon. They're set in alternate universe unless otherwise stated. So if Broly ever made his way into mainline Zverse we could discuss it. He's not part of that universe though.

That's why he can destroy a galaxy and be destroyed by a bunch of SS and a Super Namekian without altering the main timeline.

#141 Edited by reikai (3418 posts) - - Show Bio

You're not understanding something.

Goku, Saiyan Saga. PL of 8000

Goku, Arrival on Namek (35-37 days later) after 100x Gravity training. Pl of 90thusand.

Goku, Zenkai upgrade from multiple body switches and critical injuries received leading up to beginning of fight with Freeza. PL of 3million.

Person (A) with a power of 10 does not remain with a power of 10 unless Person (A) does nothing to improve on that power.

#142 Edited by P0rtal (856 posts) - - Show Bio

There is no proof of this in the slightest. In my view, each SSJ level has a set range of power levels.

X for low end, whatever is the bare minimun - X for the highest value possible before SSJ2 becomes obtainable. This requires training and rage, otherwise there would be no need for any super saiyan levels beyond the first. By the time SSJ2 rolled around, based on your theory, Gokus base level should have been significantly higher and that his x50 multipler for SSJ1 would skyrocket him way past Perfect Cell and the others. Sadly, that is not the case. Facts and calculations support my theory, but yours is 100% speculation. Each official saiyan level increase is fairly small.

x2 for SSJ2

x4 for SSJ4

With those tiny little multipliers, Gokus base form in the Buu saga by your theory would obliterate SSj2 and SSJ3. His base x SSJ1 would be insane. Too Bad thats not how the series played out.

#143 Posted by reikai (3418 posts) - - Show Bio

No, you are just being dense. Goku's Base Level in Freeza Saga as Noted in the Daizenshuu, the Official Dragon Ball Encyclopedia, is Three Million. It is Not a Power Up. That is his Base Standing Power. And an Ability that the Z-Fighters possess is to Suppress their Power Level so others cannot Detect it or Determine their True Strength.

#144 Posted by OverLordArgeist (5245 posts) - - Show Bio

@logy5000 said:

Why isn't this locked? Was it not announced to the vine that DBZ threads are banned?

DBZ VS DBZ is not against the rules

#145 Posted by Soothing_Sounds (1718 posts) - - Show Bio

@p0rtal: What would be the point of training if each SSJ has a set power level throughout the series?

#146 Edited by NeonGameWave (7207 posts) - - Show Bio

Broly is definitely a galaxy buster, the entire galaxy was shown to have vanished and Broly carries an ever increasing generation of ki energy also the destruction of the Southern Galaxy occurred within his base form not LSSJ form which means he is far capable of more than that of the destruction of a galaxy. Also Omega Shenron is a universal buster, characters in DBZ usually have an ability called Ki Sense in which they can sense one`s energy and Power Level which means they know how much power they carry throughout their attacks or in terms of capability in the production of the necessary energy to achieve certain types of destruction. This is why many of the characters make and in heart state what they mean, it proves a multitude of things logically also it disapproves of the idea which involves hyperbole or scare tactics and hype effects, its obvious that Vegeta`s Galick Gun, and Final Flash were powerful enough to destroy the earth or were capable of much more. Also this is also why Bills is a galaxy buster, Piccolo like the other characters has Ki Sense and is skilled as well when it comes to perceiving things, what he said was not an exaggeration, Piccolo meant what he said in regards to the galaxy`s destruction by the hands of Birusu. During Dragon Ball GT, Goku in his base form destroyed a dimension with a Kamehameha blast and Omega Shenron is a lot more powerful than SSJ4 Goku so him being able to destroy a universe is very evidently plausible.

#147 Posted by OverLordArgeist (5245 posts) - - Show Bio
#148 Posted by TifaLockhart (13830 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought they discontinued power levels after the Android Saga?

#149 Posted by OverLordArgeist (5245 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought they discontinued power levels after the Android Saga?

I do not know about that, but I think this is from a 2004 issue

#150 Posted by reikai (3418 posts) - - Show Bio

They were going on about Movie Power levels. Cooler's ultimate form had a PL of 470million. Brolly at the moment he first turned into the LSSJ was 1.4billion, which isn't the final measure as Brolly's power continually increases.

Super Gogeta's in "Fusion Reborn" is made out as 2.5billion and happens around the time of the Buu Saga, not long after "Broly 2nd Coming". Gogeta only ever uses the SSJ form, unlike Gotenks who had to go SS3.

Mathematically, Goku as a SS3 has a higher PL than Super Gogeta. Problem is SS3 has a huge power drain so he can't sustain the output for long. Fusion lasts for 30min unless SS3 is used which uses more energy and diminishes the amount of time the fusion is held as Goten and Trunks had found out.

Anyway it places Super Janemba close to the 2billion mark for giving SS3 Goku some trouble, but also getting completely pwned by Gogeta.