- The ward of Batman like Richard. I think this solves the mystery.
Nope, Dick and Tim were adopted.
- False. Jason was the ward of Bruce just like Richard was.
- Feel free to argue with canon facts simply because they displease you.
- I think Jason and Tim would know if Jason was Bruce's ward or not better than you sir.
Click and watch on your own discretion.
So yeah it looks like Damian Wayne is Nightwing in the game
Don't believe me?
- This is interesting, if this weren't a MK reskin , i might have considered getting this game.
- However, i'll just watch the entire story on youtube and then move on about my buisness.
I said it once and ill say it again: if bruce chooses another robin after damian's death, he's definitely nuts
- I believe that he's pretty much nuts already in more ways than one.
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/grant-morrison-no-new-robin.html
My first inclination was "go away Mr. Morrison, you've gotten too weird and people have moved on from your self-absorbed storytelling." After further consideration though, I kind of agree with him and wish that Batman would remain solo for a while.
I don't think it can be done properly though without canceling out much of the greater bat family. Furthermore, Bats would need to cut down on all these social visits he makes in other books. Also, nix his JLA membership (it's not like Johns understands him anyway). If Batman is truly angry over Damian's fall and wants to do the solo thing, there should be no half-assing it.
Seeing as that won't happen (the other bat titles sell too well, and DC won't cut down on his appearances), you might as well give the Batman another Robin.
- Good lord, i actually agree with Grant Morrison!!!
- This is the day the Good Lord has made....
@thejman250: If you mean the requiem issue I have and I am glad that Jason has "officially" re-joined the Bat-family but there's still the issue with him killing.
(I know his dead teacher said to let go of the past which could mean move on from killing people but its kind of vague. Plus I don't like the idea that Jason was taught by Zen monk assassins when he first appears as such an angry some what brat-ish character assuming that Under the hood is still cannon).
- Sure he kills however, it's not really an issue of him killing anyone and everyone.
- He'll kill if he deems it necessary however, we see that he didn't simply kill Freeze right away although he threatened to do so. Tim also says that it's nice to have someone who will do the things they "can't" do.
- If him killing was really an issue, then he probably would have killed Suzie in their first encounter and not in the hospital after giving her a chance to walk away.
- We can probably agree that the old Jason would have killed Suzie and probably Freeze on the spot. However, this is not the old Jason, he's changed in multiple ways.
- I believe Under the hood is still cannon, i'm not completely sure how much of it is though. However, if it is still canon it's probably different in some ways.
- If anything, Jason only kills criminals and only certain criminals when necessary unlike before where he shot them down left and right.
- Additionally, i doubt that Bruce has the authority to tell Jason anything. He didn't even have the balls to avenge his own kid (then or now), so i honestly don't give a damn about what Bruce thinks and i'm not sure if Jason does to that capacity either.
I like the way you think
- Thanks.
@thejman250: With all due respect DC wouldn't kill off freeze (or at least his death would later turn out to be fake) because he's to well known in DC & I really hate the new Tim Drake because in my opinion he isn't being handled properly (but that for another time) and so I don't really count his opinion and that quote is directed towards the Joker which is a special case.
When he first met Suzie it was when he was still training with the assassins and he did kill some of her family (I forget which ones) so "sparing" her life shouldn't count since it was before he "changed".
- You are correct (well, i agree with you at least) in saying that DC probably wouldn't have killed off Freeze.
- I don't think Tim is being done Justice either, but that is for another time, place, forum,etc.
- Yes that was the joker, and i agree that it was a special case but it does still exist.
- He spared her then, and he spared her in one of the first few issues.
- Here is the page if you needed to see:
- Additionally, he put Crux (the alien who tried to kill starfire) in arkham instead of killing him or letting starfire kill him.
@thejman250: well you know, I dont think it is really over with. i think for the most part, Jason has let go a lot of his anger, and during his time within his mind, he realizes that he had a lot to do with his current predicament. I don't like the idea that Jason needs to be Wingman, or that it is only with Bruce that he can be redeemed. I love that they had that moment together, and to know that Jason doesn't necessarily hate Bruce anymore offers new stories to tell which I think will be great, but Bruce isn't perfect, and i dont see Jason stopping what he is doing. I see him more enlightened, and more aware that the Bat-family isn't an enemy. I would love to see more interaction between him and Tim, and maybe some conflict with Dick in the future, but for the most part he really isn't an integral part of the Bat-fam. I think he might be considered an ally, as he has helped out in a long list of occasions, but he does still kill, he does things his own way, and for Jason to be an Outlaw is the best thing he can be. I would like to see a real Red Hood and Batman team up, which we might see in B&R numba 20 that is coming in May.
I feel that the Outlaws are going to have a mindset like; ok we had that little side step, now it is time to go back to work. And that may be where Jason's past will come back, as the solicits show that he had a history with the League of Assassins. So the future looks to be very interesting.
Ya, I feel that Dick held Jason to a really high standard, and when he came back with a vengeance, Dick really wasn't sympathetic, and neither was Babs or Damian. I really don't see the Babs Jason friendship anytime in the future, and even though Damian is dead, they did share some adventures together as Wingman and Redbird, which I didn't particularly care for, but still happened. With Dick going to Chicago, Damian dead, and Babs really in her own world ( I think that DOTF really hit her hard, and her trust with Bruce) the family really is too broken to judge Jason at the moment as a whole. On an individual level, I don't think Dick will like it that much if Jason teamed up with Bruce as Red Hood, Babs really wouldn't like it, but I think Tim would be supportive, though he is off with the Titans, and rarely hangs with the Bat-Clan ( which bums me out). So it really is up in the air as to how the whole family will feel, as the family is pretty broken at this point in time.
I read the DC Presents, and truly felt that the writer didn't necessarily grasp the new 52 Roy. I mean he seemed so cold, and Jason seemed so much like Roy. I felt they were really switched, and I just couldn't get into the plot. I am glad that Roy finally got a spotlight but it wasn't my taste.
- I think Jason being wingman was more of a Grant Morrison thing, and Lobdell simply used that. I'm sure that he doesn't need to be Wingman, but it's somewhat interesting.
- Well, in my opinion, Bruce is the only person that he needs to be redeemed with as he doesn't have to answer to Richard and Alfred already told him that he's still a member of the family.
- I doubt Jason will stop what he's doing, and i don't think he should have to either. Who is Bruce to tell him how to live? He certainly isn't the father who avenged his child (now or then). He clearly didn't have the balls to do what was necessary and as far as i'm concerned, he's lost any say as to what Jason should or should not do. With all of that being said, Bruce already gave Jason his blessings and admitted that although he disliked his methods, Jason brought results and got the job done. He also said that Jasond deserved it. Moreover, Jason in the New 52 is a more moderated version of his pre New 52 self. He wen't from shooting down criminals left and right, to only killing those who he thought deserved to be killed, to only killing when necessary (killing suzie after giving her a chance to walk away, and not killing crux at all) and avoiding killing in gotham for respect (Jason still respecting Bruce, imagine that!) for Bruce. Thus, i'm pretty sure that he'll keep the killing to a minimum when around Bruce.
- Yea, i think he's best with the outlaws as well however, he'll probably be helping out Bruce more as in Batman and Red Hood #20.
- I also think things with Richard need to be straightened out and that would possibly allow for some Richard and Starfire explanation
- I agree, the future issues look interesting.
- I get the feeling that Richard and Jason never really got along and his coming back didn't help that either. Barbra is stuck up as always, and Damian is simply a rude ass. The only person that Damian was actually (somewhat) nice to was Richard, and that was because he respected richard.
- I agree that the family is somewhat spread out however, Richard and Barbra are both dealing with big things from their past at the moment. Richard and tim didn't seem to object much to Jason being in the cave in Inc, so i doubt that it will be that big of an issue. Sure Richard and Jason won't be best friends, but i think they'll manage. Tim does seem to spend more time with the Titans instead of the family in his own book though.
- Interesting, I still have to read that issue of DC Presents.
- Replace one black character with another black character.
- Because Batwing definitely has to be black. Interesting.
Could've been asian or hispanic would've been cool too I think. Personally I think anything but white male could fit at this point because we all know we need another white guy running around in a batsuit policing people .
- If DC's going to make a character Black, simply to have a Black character i think that they should be more discreet about it.
Like how? Replace a white Character with a Black Character, cause would go totally different, or just create a new Black character and give him a new title as soon as they cancel Batwing and call him something else (DreadWing anyone)? I know, lets wait a year or 10 before launching the next Black character?
I mean when Barry got replaced with Wally, I didn't hear any of this reasoning, Batman gets replaced with several other family members and no one applies this logic, but a Black character gets replaced with a Black Character, heaven forbid that DC "might" clearly want a Black character in that role...
- "Like how"? Perhaps in a way that wasn't so painfully obvious.
- Am i supposed to care that you have a Black character just to have one? At least Simon Baz was inserted in a more discreet manner.
- Diversity simply for the sake of diversity is not something i'm fond of. What's next, create a random gay arabic black character simply for the sake of having a gay arabic black character?
- Yes, this applies because Wally definitely wasn't a part of the series thus far. Oh wait, it doesn't and your argument fails. Surprise, surprise.
- Batman gets replaced by Family members who weren't a part of the series thus far. Oh wait, your argument fails here as well.
- Replacing one black character with another black character simply to have a black character fill that role is completely different than having your sidekick replace you when you happen to fall in the line of fire as they've basically been training for that scenario.
- Try again, and hopefully you'll have better arguments next time.
---------
"Like how"? Perhaps in a way that wasn't so painfully obvious.
Like give an example to back up your point, under their current constraints (Their goal to introduce a character close to Batman, different and unattached to David, and yes, a Black one at that, and under their obligation to finish off story lines of the current Batwing).
- Am i supposed to care that you have a Black character just to have one? At least Simon Baz was inserted in a more discreet manner.
How was it more discrete, explain, don't just state
- Diversity simply for the sake of diversity is not something i'm fond of. What's next, create a random gay arabic black character simply for the sake of having a gay arabic black character?
You repeated you first statement but replaced Black with Diversity, what does any of this prove? Will you be complaining about women next too? Here, is something to chew on: the first 2 versions of Batgirl were introduced in the same manner(out of nowhere, related to per-existing characters). Chew Away!!!
- Yes, this applies because Wally definitely wasn't a part of the series thus far. Oh wait, it doesn't and your argument fails. Surprise, surprise.
What difference does it make if he was part of the series before or not, Was Simon, your example, part of the series before they introduced him? NO! You need to be introduced at some point, there is no rule of when.
- Batman gets replaced by Family members who weren't a part of the series thus far. Oh wait, your argument fails here as well.
No it does not, because nobody cried about them replacing Batman with another WHITE character, which was my point, because you're crying that a Black character was replaced with another Black character without discretion. The only thing that fails is your comprehension. Trying to point out that Luke is a new Character, which apparently his has been shown prior, is pointless because it is nothing new for a new character to appear out of nowhere. So there is nothing indiscreet about just introducing a new character and retconning them into history, which means your basically crying about a Black on Black replacement and looking for reasons to justify it.
- Replacing one black character with another black character simply to have a black character fill that role is completely different than having your sidekick replace you when you happen to fall in the line of fire as they've basically been training for that scenario.
Except, no one complained that a White character replaced a white character, like when Azriel took over Batman, I didn't recall him being a side-kick. You still never explained why DC needs to be discrete either, but nice attempt to dodge the main point I was making. It has not escaped me with your "responses" ...
Try again, and hopefully you'll have better arguments next time.
The only thing I failed at was getting a proper response from you.
Like give an example to back up your point, under their current constraints (Their goal to introduce a character close to Batman, different and unattached to David, and yes, a Black one at that, and under their obligation to finish off story lines of the current Batwing).
- I don't need an example to back up my point sir. I'm not obligated to brainstorm for DC simply because they lack the brain capacity to do it themselves.
- Yes, Batwing has to be black, because they must have a black character. Oh ok. Having a black character, just for the sake of having a black character. Surprise, surprise.
You don't need to back up your points in a debate? .... Concession accepted
How was it more discrete, explain, don't just state
- Figure it out. I don't have to explain my opinion to you sir. Try again.
Concession accepted
You repeated you first statement but replaced Black with Diversity, what does any of this prove? Will you be complaining about women next too? Here, is something to chew on: the first 2 versions of Batgirl were introduced in the same manner(out of nowhere, related to per-existing characters). Chew Away!!!
- Yes, because David was definitely related to someone else prior to his inception. Oh wait. Your point fails once again.
- If you are illiterate i'm not going to keep reiterating myself. My point is clear as day, figure it out.
Except I'm clearly talking about Luke. Notice I used the word "replaced"? Before you talk about illiteracy, you should learn to read.
What difference does it make if he was part of the series before or not, Was Simon, your example, part of the series before they introduced him? NO! You need to be introduced at some point, there is no rule of when.
- Everything sir. Your examples that you brought up failed completely. RIchard and Wally didn't suddenly turn white when they became Batman and the flash, they had been white for what is most likely a longer period of time than you have been alive.
And Luke didn't suddenly turn black so you fail. I also find it funny you comment about their starting color has nothing to do with the actual point regarding how Simon's introduction varied in being discrete, You'll need to troll harder kid.
No it does not, because nobody cried about them replacing Batman with another WHITE character, which was my point, because you're crying that a Black character was replaced with another Black character without discretion. The only thing that fails is your comprehension. Trying to point out that Luke is a new Character, which apparently his has been shown prior, is pointless because it is nothing new for a new character to appear out of nowhere. So there is nothing indiscreet about just introducing a new character and retconning them into history, which means your basically crying about a Black on Black replacement and looking for reasons to justify it.
- Your point that failed atrociously.
- Richard didn't suddenly turn white a couple years ago, he had been white for a time period that is most likely longer than your life. People were going to complain about Richard replacing Bruce because he was white, even though it was the logical step and he had been white for over 50 years? I highly doubt that. The same thing goes for Wally. Two of your pathetic attempts at examples. Surprise, surprise.
Luke started off as Black, so again, your point about Dick's stating color is nonsense and adds nothing to your "argument". The point about someone complaining that DC replaces white characters with others, is that is dumb, just like complaining that DC is replacing a Black character with another because you have failed to give a reason why Luke is clearly not a logical step to be the next Batwing. DC didn't want to cannibalize another character or plotline, so they went with a new character and someone they purposely didn't want associated with David. And as Luke is a new character, as everyone is quick to point out, I find it baffling they would say his is not a logical/good/whatever choice as we know little about him. All people really know is he is black, and that seems like an issue. And Batgirl has already shown that you can introduce a character abruptly and have them make a strong impact.
So by your own reasoning of why Dick can replace Bruce and not be subject to scrutiny of Same race replacements and your use of Simon base as an example of discrete introduction, I'm still waiting for a solid reason that makes Luke an illogical choice. OH wait you don't need to back up your statements do you?
- My comprehension failing is your opinion, try again. As far as i'm concerned, DC is making a character Black just to be Black.
- That's your opinion that there's nothing "indiscreet" and i'm not going to argue with you as i don't really care what you think. As far as i'm concerned, they should do it more discretely. The end.
- I don't need to justify my opinion sir, and especially not to you. You have no authority on the internet, nor does DC.
- I think it's indiscreet and i won't be buying this trash. The end.
LOL you build such a solid argument, however will I overcome this disassemblement of my argument, this staggering analyses and rebuttal, and your killer closing statement.
Except, no one complained that a White character replaced a white character, like when Azriel took over Batman, I didn't recall him being a side-kick. You still never explained why DC needs to be discrete either, but nice attempt to dodge the main point I was making. It has not escaped me with your "responses" ...
- Why i think DC needs to be discreet? I don't have to explain my opinion to you. I don't know who you think you are, but get over it.
Here is a hint, if you're going to post your opinion on the forums, people will question it. You choose to respond to my comments, don't cry because you can't back it up. Concession accepted!
- Because Azriel suddenly appeared after Bruce was crippled, and he definitely wasn't a previously established white character in the series. Another failing point. Surprise surprise. Bruce told Tim to train him. He was basically a sidekick of sorts. Try again.
Barbra appeared out of nowhere and took up the Batgirl mantel out of nowhere. That was my example, not Azriel. The only difference between Barbra and Luke is that there was a gap between the 1st and second Batgirl. Batwing does not have that option because they don't want to cancel the comic. Azriel is just one example of replacing a character of a particular skin color with another character of the same skin color without there being uproar.
Since you clearly don't understand what I've done. Let me explain, I've have deconstructed your argument into its various components.
A proper argument requires each of its points to individually stand scrutiny. Every time I attack point 1 you've been trying to use point 2 as a crutch even though point 2 is invalidated by your own use of Simon as an example as well as Barbra.
If the concept of replacing a person of a specifically color with a person of the same color is not in itself taboo (point number one), and Introducing a character abruptly is not Taboo I can't see why the combination of the 2 situations would suddenly be so uncanny, especially for Black characters.
I find it laughable that you're unwilling/unable to clearly state why a Black replacement character needs to be intruded discretely, while at the same time, not willing to even define what you mean by discretely, while taking into consideration that the choice to swap was itself relatively sudden.
You don't need to back up your points in a debate? .... Concession accepted
- There definitely wasn't a concession and definitely not to the likes of you. Nice reach.
- I'm not obligated to follow your every demand, try again.
- There is no reason i should have to come up with solutions for DC's idiocy because i'm not being paid to do so. They pay people for a reason, they can figure it out.
- However, me not giving you an example of how it could be done doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. If this is your argument, it's one of the most pathetic arguments i've ever heard. The "absence of evidence = evidence of absence " crap again, hilarious. Wherever i am, that argument never ceases to amuse me.
- I'll throw you a bone though. Simon Baz was introduced discreetly as far as i'm concerned. There's more on this below if you actually read it.
Concession accepted
- Once again, this is cute because there was never a concession. Try again.
Basically you spent 5 points to mention you ain't got jack to back up your statement. And no, I never used the fallacy of ignorance because I never concluded I'm right because you don't have proof, I just pointed your argument has no substance and you have failed to provide any logic.
Except I'm clearly talking about Luke. Notice I used the word "replaced"? Before you talk about illiteracy, you should learn to read
- Right kid.
the first 2 versions of Batgirl were introduced in the same manner(out of nowhere, related to per-existing characters).
- Introduced is now replaced? I think you need to go back to second grade and learn how to read.
You remember that talk about comprehension? I'm talking about Luc replacing David but being introduced in the similar manner to the 2 Batgirls. I don't think you've even gotten to grade 2 with this deplorable attention span.
And Luke didn't suddenly turn black so you fail. I also find it funny you comment about their starting color has nothing to do with the actual point regarding how Simon's introduction varied in being discrete, You'll need to troll harder kid.
- Because i was definitely speaking about luke and not david and i definitely brought up Wally and Richard. Oh wait, that's not the case. Try again.
- They had been there for years, if there starting color was an issue it would have been one over 50 years ago or so. Try again.
- You brought up wally and richard, i brought up Simon. Try again.
- Wally and Richard definitely do not have anything to do with Simon.
No, but you did mention several Characters (I brought up) starting off as white, which has nothing to do with anything relevant on the topic of a character replacing a character of the same color, because All of these characters started off the same color as they now. So your last 4 points are wasted text. But nice try.
Luke started off as Black, so again, your point about Dick's stating color is nonsense and adds nothing to your "argument". The point about someone complaining that DC replaces white characters with others, is that is dumb, just like complaining that DC is replacing a Black character with another because you have failed to give a reason why Luke is clearly not a logical step to be the next Batwing. DC didn't want to cannibalize another character or plotline, so they went with a new character and someone they purposely didn't want associated with David. And as Luke is a new character, as everyone is quick to point out, I find it baffling they would say his is not a logical/good/whatever choice as we know little about him. All people really know is he is black, and that seems like an issue. And Batgirl has already shown that you can introduce a character abruptly and have them make a strong impact.
So by your own reasoning of why Dick can replace Bruce and not be subject to scrutiny of Same race replacements and your use of Simon base as an example of discrete introduction, I'm still waiting for a solid reason that makes Luke an illogical choice. OH wait you don't need to back up your statements do you?
- Then i think you need better examples for your point than Batman being replaced by Batman jr. who has been there for over 50 years or so. Not some random black guy being introduced in africa, and then being replaced by a guy who wasn't even in continuity at all as far as i know.
I did mention Barbra didn't I? I'm pretty sure I did. Learn to read. The 1st 2 Batgirls were introduced abruptly, the only difference is in the time between replacement, but clearly putting a gap between the 2 Batwings would have cancelled the comics unless they used a stand in which they clearly didn't want to do. Not that the concept of sudden replacement is tied to race either.
- I think you would be the one to give a reason why Luke would be a logical step to the next Batman. You brought him up the same way you attempted to bring up Richard and Wally, and those points certainly failed. You'll have to do better than that.
My Comparison of him to Wally was the aspect of a character of one race replacing another of the same race, to show you how absurd crying about a character of one race complaining about being replaced by a character of the same race was just that, absurd. To argue your points I have to only show examples of where they individually fail, not where the amalgamation of them fails because it is not required to show how empty your argument is. Hence why Barbra is my example of an abrupt introduction.
The reason for Luc being a replacement are yet to be given, which is why I find it laughable that you would argue against it with no basis other than he "had to be black" which seems to be where your true issue lies.
I'm not saying Luc is a logical choice for the same reasons, I'm baffled people are crying about him. because DC has not provided much detail, which indicates there seems to be an issue about his race. I don't need to have an opposing opinion to see your argument is empty, I just need to be objective. I may find Luc to be a bad fit later on, but my objections won't have anything to do with his race.
- So now you're telling me what DC wanted to do? Ok, you would definitely know what DC's mindset was.
You do know there was an interview on this right? The only thing they didn't say they didn't want to cannibalism a more established character, but that action obviously speaks for itself because they didn't.
I will point out I also find this comment funny coming from someone who so adamantly feels DC's mindset is to just have a Black Character in the Bat-family for diversity sake, so were you in the office when DC officials said we must have a Black member of the Bat-family for diversity sake? Or is it only okay for you to know what DC's true motives are and no-one else to surmise?
- Because introducing a character abruptly was definitely a one of my points before. Oh wait, it wasn't as this is nothing new in comics. Try again, and read properly.
Because you have spent several pages arguing this Black Character should have been introduced more discretely when you have not defined how at this point, so I'm giving you you the benefit of the doubt, which you clearly don't deserve. So you've been so adamant to show that Dick was more established when he took over from Batman as reason as to why no-one shouldn't have questioned this as a race issue perspective but it is not one of your points? LOL, Really? Because in order to differentiate Dick replacing Bruce vs Luc replacing David, you yourself said
Then i think you need better examples for your point than Batman being replaced by Batman jr. who has been there for over 50 years or so. Not some random black guy being introduced in africa, and then being replaced by a guy who wasn't even in continuity at all as far as i know.
And that's the closest thing I've seen you give a reason to defend your "opinion". But now it is not one of your points? LOL? But you use it again in the next statement to defend Dick replacing Bruce free of racial scrutiny vs. Luke& David..... Lets not forget YOU brought up the character integration when I pointed out examples of white characters replacing other white characters (without race being questioned), so yes, this was "your" point.
Either
Now, since character integration is not one of your points (despite using it in your next statement). You're back to just having an issue with role staying with a Black character (for diversity sake) ...
- You mean why your point of RIchard replacing Bruce fails after he had been there for over 50 years? That's the logical reason, he had been there for over 50 years and had been established as white from BATMAN #1. If the first Robin from Batman #1 wasn't going to become Robin, please tell me who was. John Stewart? The Joker? Or perhaps Aladdin?
So what? Luke needed to be established as a Black character for 50 years before he could take up the Batwing Mantle, when the their choice to replace Batwing was less than a year? I'm pretty sure that even if this were the case you would still be crying about Luc replacing David.
So again, Dick replacing Batman was more about his integration into Batman's Methos than a white character replacing a white character. My point is no-one had an issue with that, or any of the other Temp Batmen being white. But you clearly have an issue with Luc being Black. You keep trying to use the amount of time a character has establish themselves which is a completely different concept from a character of one race replacing a character of the same race, so stop trying to use one point to defend the other. It won't work, they are 2 different concepts that don't feed into each-other.
I find it an offense to the concept of logic that you would acknowledge that the other examples of a characters taking up the Batman Mantle has nothing to do with keeping him white, but seem to somehow think Luc's lack of pre-existing integration somehow supports your argument and objection to keeping him black (for the sake of diversity).
- I don't see why anyone would tell you that this point would work sir.
- You mean the way Luke is and obvious attempt to have a black character just to have a black character and that DC is getting rid of David simply because they don't like the sales of the book and nothing more?
Again, whats wrong with wanting to have a black character? If Lucius Fox, David, and Luc were white and they added Luc in the exact same manner, would you be saying they wanted to a white character for the sake of having a white character? Clearly you wouldn't.
- If you actually read Green Lantern, you would have known that Simon becoming green lantern has little with him being arabic, nothing to do with sales, and nearly everything to do with the plot. Moreover, it wasn't forced in the least. Oh, for your information Sinestro is back as well now and apparently hal will be back shortly as well.
Yet they tied Simon in with a terrorist plot-line in an attempt to show him struggle through "an" Arabic stereotype? Nope, nothing to do with him being Arabic. Completely coincidental as all nations have terrorists right? Yet Fox who we know nothing about, oh it is all about him being black just because the last character was.
It wasn't forced? The guy showed up and got a ring in the same issue. Luc has not even been ordained yet, even if he gets the mantel next issue, it wouldn't be any less "forced" than Baz! The only difference is Baz was planned a lot longer in advance as he appeared in a free issue (with no story line but detailing the new characters).
And while this new approach might effect David's story, it shouldn't effect the manner in which Luc presents himself to the point of him being more forced upon us than Simone to take up a mantle. As for the the effects on the story, DC does that with the cancellations, the stories are rushed to tie up lose ends. Regardless of who they used, the transition was going to be rushed once they decided to replace him, if thats what you're getting at, so this concept is not specifically tied to race issue nor support a hint of it at all.
Even the recent Stormwatch issue had a reboot for instance (which used a timeline change to suddenly reboot the characters, change roosters and story after the last storyline ended ... and without any build up at that). While the exact nuances are different it is similar that they gave a reboot of sorts to keep the series alive and did so in an abrupt manner. But no-one is trying to look through the changes in an attempt to call out diversity mandates, because these things happen.
- I don't need to back up my opinion, because opinions can't be true regardless but i damn sure can if i choose, and especially against your pathetic arguments.
Because you're doing such a great job at repeating you're statements....hint you're not!
Here is a hint, if you're going to post your opinion on the forums, people will question it. You choose to respond to my comments, don't cry because you can't back it up. Concession accepted!
- If only i needed to back something up against your pathetic arguments. I'm not here to please you kid, try again.
- You can question my opinion all you want as i don't care what you think either way.
- Being unable to back it up is different from choosing not to kid, because you seem to ignorantly think i have some obligation to do so in order to please you. Try again kid.
- As if there was a concession to the likes of you.
The guy who has an issue with DC wanting a character to be Black (and feels they need to "discrete" about it) with not real reasoning has no business calling "me" ignorant. ;)
The guy who didn't think he should have to defend his points in a debate, thinks to call me "ignorant".
Barbra appeared out of nowhere and took up the Batgirl mantel out of nowhere. That was my example, not Azriel. The only difference between Barbra and Luke is that there was a gap between the 1st and second Batgirl. Batwing does not have that option because they don't want to cancel the comic. Azriel is just one example of replacing a character of a particular skin color with another character of the same skin color without there being uproar.
Since you clearly don't understand what I've done. Let me explain, I've have deconstructed your argument into its various components.
- Replacing a character with of one race with a character of the same race.
- Introducing a character abruptly (which can include replacing characters)
- Azriel, Dick, Jason, Wally, apply to point 1
- Barbra, Simon apply to point 2 (and technically 2 as well)
A proper argument requires each of its points to individually stand scrutiny. Every time I attack point 1 you've been trying to use point 2 as a crutch even though point 2 is invalidated by your own use of Simon as an example as well as Barbra.
If the concept of replacing a person of a specifically color with a person of the same color is not in itself taboo (point number one), and Introducing a character abruptly is not Taboo I can't see why the combination of the 2 situations would suddenly be so uncanny, especially for Black characters.
I find it laughable that you're unwilling/unable to clearly state why a Black replacement character needs to be intruded discretely, while at the same time, not willing to even define what you mean by discretely, while taking into consideration that the choice to swap was itself relatively sudden.
- Oh, Barbra was your example not Azreal even though you brought Azreal up? Is it because Azreal fails at this point? The answer is obviously yes. Nice try.
- Azreal was already there within canon continuity.
I know that comprehension is not your strong suit, but I did clearly mention that Azriel was an example of a White character replacing a white character, not that he was an example of a white character replacing a white character abruptly.
I have clearly indicated I am arguing the of a character of 1 race replacing a character of the same race separate from the concept of a character suddenly appearing into continuity because that is what they are, and trying to act as if joining the to concepts suddenly make it an issue when it individual components do not, only shows your argument has nothing to stand on.
- Additionally, the second Batgirl was Asian /Asian american if i'm not mistaken. OH LOOK, DIVERSITY THAT ISN'T SIMPLY FOR THE SAKE OF DIVERSITY.
- They didn't get rid of Barbra specifically to have some Asian replace her did they? No, she had a specific story with the joker that resulted in her being crippled? I suppose this is your concession then.
The second Batgirl was Barbra Gordan, the first Batgirl was Bette Kane, so yes you are clearly mistaken.
- My argument is that they are having a Black character simply to have a Black character and nothing more.
Clearly that is a problem for you.
- When was "point 2" ever a part of my argument? Sure, it makes it obvious what their doing, but what they're doing is the important thing here which you apparently failed to read.
Since you clearly refuse to define how or why DC need to introduce a Black replacement character discretely, I'm left to guess what you're actual reasoning is. But considering you're always talking about how Dick has been around for 50 years, as you're defense for point 1, I would say it is part of you're argument. I mean you should at least know what you yourself wrote.
- Every time you "attack" "point 1" your examples have been utterly, utterly trivial so i suggest you do better. As i said before, i , along with other people, frown on diversity simply for the sake of diversity.
Yet you defend the concept with point 2 every time, which gets shot down, so can't be that trivial.
- Again, both of these points make it obvious what they're doing. However, it is apparently not obvious enough for you.
- Have you been reading? I don't care if you replace one character with one of the same race, but if you're just having diversity just to have it then i will frown upon it.
- Replacing a character with one of the same race may be frowned upon depending on how it's done, and it makes certain things painfully obvious.
- You're clearly illiterate as you apparently don't understand the phrase "diversity only/simply for the sake of diversity". It's funny that your "points" weren't actually points of my argument, they just made my point clear as day.
- Clearly a Black character doesn't need to be introduced discreetly as Luke certainly isn't being introduced discreetly. However, if you don't introduce them discreetly it's obviously diversity for the sake of diversity. I'm not sure if you understand what that is though.
Once Again, comprehension is not your ally. I'm pointing out that no-one makes similar arguments when DC replaces white characters with white, so why is it so different when they do so with color? I'm pretty certain that there are different circumstances beyond various character replacements, but I would be baffled if race was an issue for white characters, so why does it need to be for Blacks? Why does DC need to worry about discretion for blacks (for the sake of being black).
You have had to put several different points together to make an argument when those individual points fail on themselves, and continue to use one failed point to support another. Race to race replacement and character integration (before taking up a mantel) are 2 separate concepts that have existed long before Luc ever appeared. So that both concepts are suddenly being applied to Luc at the same time shouldn't be an issue as they are 2 different concepts that don't feed into eachother.
And your point about "diversity only/simply for the sake of diversity" is just ignorance. This implies that when an author adds the character of an ethnic group without some clear explanation, we assume its for no reason other than adding someone of that group. And while it might be true, this attitude implies there needs to be a reason for adding someone from that group. There is very little way to take this other than a writer needs to justify adding a non-white male (or whatever the norm is for the Author's location) to a plot and this should not be the case.
- Discreetly doesn't necessarily have to do with time sir, i suggest you familiarize yourself with a dictionary
Yet you'reonly defense to the points I've made have revolved around Luc's abrupt introduction to the series and so my responses have been geared towards that. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with your own arguments ... or lack of.
Basically you spent 5 points to mention you ain't got jack to back up your statement. And no, I never used the fallacy of ignorance because I never concluded I'm right because you don't have proof, I just pointed your argument has no substance and you have failed to provide any logic.
- I don’t have anything to back up my opinion? You must be illiterate.
- Oh, you mean your opinion that my argument has no substance? Understood.
- If you don’t know what diversity simply for the sake of diversity is, you are incredibly ignorant. You don’t need logic to understand that, only common sense.
Yet you'reonly defense to the points I've made have revolved around Luc's abrupt introduction to the series and so my responses have been geared towards that. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with your own arguments ... or lack of.
You remember that talk about comprehension? I'm talking about Luc replacing David but being introduced in the similar manner to the 2 Batgirls. I don't think you've even gotten to grade 2 with this deplorable attention span.
- The word is "your" child. English obviously isn't your friend, or even distant associate, along with common sense.
- You remember that talk with your parents about using common sense? My posts have definitely been about luke and not DC having diversity simply for the sake of having diversity. Oh wait.
- I don't think you've even been accepted into pre school with this minimal brain capacity that you have been putting on display.
No, but you did mention several Characters (I brought up) starting off as white, which has nothing to do with anything relevant on the topic of a character replacing a character of the same color, because All of these characters started off the same color as they now. So your last 4 points are wasted text. But nice try.
- Oh, I mentioned characters that you brought up to defeat points that you fabricated into my argument after you brought the examples up? Surprise, surprise
I did mention Barbra didn't I? I'm pretty sure I did. Learn to read. The 1st 2 Batgirls were introduced abruptly, the only difference is in the time between replacement, but clearly putting a gap between the 2 Batwings would have cancelled the comics unless they used a stand in which they clearly didn't want to do. Not that the concept of sudden replacement is tied to race either.
- Not that you didn’t fabricate either of these “concepts” into my argument, either. Oh wait.
- No, I definitely mentioned batgirl, Richard, wally, Azriel, and "point 1" and "point 2". Oh wait, try again.
My Comparison of him to Wally was the aspect of a character of one race replacing another of the same race, to show you how absurd crying about a character of one race complaining about being replaced by a character of the same race was just that, absurd. To argue your points I have to only show examples of where they individually fail, not where the amalgamation of them fails because it is not required to show how empty your argument is. Hence why Barbra is my example of an abrupt introduction.
The reason for Luc being a replacement are yet to be given, which is why I find it laughable that you would argue against it with no basis other than he "had to be black" which seems to be where your true issue lies.
I'm not saying Luc is a logical choice for the same reasons, I'm baffled people are crying about him. because DC has not provided much detail, which indicates there seems to be an issue about his race. I don't need to have an opposing opinion to see your argument is empty, I just need to be objective. I may find Luc to be a bad fit later on, but my objections won't have anything to do with his race.
- To argue the points that you fabricated into my argument? It’s quite pathetic that you couldn’t even properly defeat points that you yourself fabricated.
- You can find whatever you want “funny” , I don’t give a damn about what you think.
- My argument being “empty” is your opinion kid, and you obviously don’t understand what diversity simply for the sake of diversity means. Try again, or perhaps return to grade school(if you’re even out of grade school, I may be giving you too much credit by speaking to you as if you actually are) . I think the latter option might be the best for someone like you.
You do know there was an interview on this right? The only thing they didn't say they didn't want to cannibalism a more established character, but that action obviously speaks for itself because they didn't.
I will point out I also find this comment funny coming from someone who so adamantly feels DC's mindset is to just have a Black Character in the Bat-family for diversity sake, so were you in the office when DC officials said we must have a Black member of the Bat-family for diversity sake? Or is it only okay for you to know what DC's true motives are and no-one else to surmise?
- Yes, as far as I’m concerned that’s what they’re doing.
- I wasn’t in the office just like you weren’t However; you apparently lack the brain capacity to understand that.
Because you have spent several pages arguing this Black Character should have been introduced more discretely when you have not defined how at this point, so I'm giving you you the benefit of the doubt, which you clearly don't deserve.So you've been so adamant to show that Dick was more established when he took over from Batman as reason as to why no-one shouldn't have questioned this as a race issue perspective but it is not one of your points?LOL, Really? Because in order to differentiate Dick replacing Bruce vs Luc replacing David, you yourself said
- Oh yes, I’m supposed to do DC’s job for DC, when they pay people to do it. I’m not obligated to brainstorm for you or DC child, get over it.
- I don’t deserve something? That’s a nice opinion and nothing more.
- Because a 50 year old character replacing a 70 year old character is the same as a random character replacing another randomly introduced character. Try again.
And that's the closest thing I've seen you give a reason to defend your "opinion". But now it is not one of your points? LOL? But you use it again in the next statement to defend Dick replacing Bruce free of racial scrutiny vs. Luke& David..... Lets not forget YOU brought up the character integration when I pointed out examples of white characters replacing other white characters (without race being questioned), so yes, this was "your" point.
Either
- You tried to point out that somehow their integration made it okay for Dick, Jason, and Wally to replace their predecessors free of racial scrutiny while Luc's lack of, somehow does allows for scrutiny for keeping the character black (for the sake of being black).
- You mentioned it because you liked the sound of your keyboard as you type.
- I need to learn to read and stop being illiterate
- Some other reason that you don't feel obligated to tell me, because I don't ownz the Internets
- <Maybe you will actually surprise me and clarify>
Now, since character integration is not one of your points (despite using it in your next statement). You're back to just having an issue with role staying with a Black character (for diversity sake) ...
- Actually, it was one the points ("point 1" and "point 2") that you fabricated into my argument because you appearently had nothing to speak about.
- I used one of the examples that you brought up to defeat the points that you frabicated into my argument to show you that your examples didn't actually defeat the points you frabricated as you had intended? Ok.
- Like you said "point 1" and "point 2" were my points? Ok you imbecile , you're clearly illiterate.
- I brought up something as a response to your drivel? If anything, whatever point i brought up was only a response to your drivel and not my actual argument however, that was after you attempted to fabricate "point 1" and "point 2" into my argument.
- "Back to", you mean back to my initial argument and not the idiotic "point 1" and "point 2" which you attempted to fabricate into my argument? Understood.
- Either you have the brain capacity of a fish, or you're simply illiterate. Which one is it?
So what? Luke needed to be established as a Black character for 50 years before he could take up the Batwing Mantle, when the their choice to replace Batwing was less than a year? I'm pretty sure that even if this were the case you would still be crying about Luc replacing David.
So again, Dick replacing Batman was more about his integration into Batman's Methos than a white character replacing a white character. My point is no-one had an issue with that, or any of the other Temp Batmen being white. But you clearly have an issue with Luc being Black. You keep trying to use the amount of time a character has establish themselveswhich is a completely different concept from a character of one race replacing a character of the same race, so stop trying to use one point to defend the other. It won't work, they are 2 different concepts that don't feed into each-other.
I find it an offense to the concept of logic that you would acknowledge that the other examples of a characters taking up the Batman Mantle has nothing to do with keeping him white, but seem to somehow think Luc's lack of pre-existing integration somehow supports your argument and objection to keeping him black (for the sake of diversity).
- I'm pretty sure that you don't know a damned thing about me you utterly ignorant child.
- When did i say that luke needed to be a 50 year old character? The time was simply a response to your examples that failed to defeat points that you fabricated into my argument in the first place. However, i doubt you have the brain capacity to understand this.
- Any of the other temp Batman who were previously a part of the series and related to Bruce in some way? Obviously.
- I doubt that they would be upset with a character that was previously established as white in canon continuity was white.
- If they were going to complain about Richard being white, they would have done it long ago. I doubt people were going to complain that the second Batman was white, when all of his sons who were trained to replace him as Batman were white for years.
- You mean the two concepts that you fabricated into my argument are different? Ok sir. It's not as though you were even capable of bringing in examples to defeat the ponits that you fabricated, as you failed at that as well.
- I find it insulting to the intelligence of the human race that you would have the audacity to fabricate "points" into my argument in order to avoid my actual argument, then fail at your attempts to defeat the points you yourself fabricated.
- You obviously don't know what the term diversity simply for the sake of diversity means. That's pretty evident after reading your posts.
Again, whats wrong with wanting to have a black character? If Lucius Fox, David, and Luc were white and they added Luc in the exact same manner, would you be saying they wanted to a white character for the sake of having a white character? Clearly you wouldn't.
- Again, you don't know what diversity for the sake of diversity means. You're clearly ignorant and i don't really need to have a conversation with an ignorant child.
Yet they tied Simon in with a terrorist plot-line in an attempt to show him struggle through "an" Arabic stereotype? Nope, nothing to do with him being Arabic. Completely coincidental as all nations have terrorists right? Yet Fox who we know nothing about, oh it is all about him being black just because the last character was.
- I'm pretty sure that Johns didn't make Simon Arabic simply to have an Arabic character sir. If he did, he did it so well that i , along with many others, did not notice.
- Completely coincidental that there was a terrorist plot line in a comic book that mainly took place in the U.S. after 9/11 right? I think not sir.
- Your ignorance apparently knows no bounds.
It wasn't forced? The guy showed up and got a ring in the same issue. Luc has not even been ordained yet, even if he gets the mantel next issue, it wouldn't be any less "forced" than Baz! The only difference is Baz was planned a lot longer in advance as he appeared in a free issue (with no story line but detailing the new characters).
- Oh, you determine what is forced and what isn't forced for all comic book characters, and comic book readers alike? No you don't child. Your opinion or definition of the word forced only applies to you and i suggest you keep it to yourself. Your opinion is not a fact child. Common sense.
And while this new approach might effect David's story, it shouldn't effect the manner in which Luc presents himself to the point of him being more forced upon us than Simone to take up a mantle. As for the the effects on the story, DC does that with the cancellations, the stories are rushed to tie up lose ends. Regardless of who they used, the transitionwas going to be rushed once they decided to replace him, if thats what you're getting at, so this concept is not specifically tied to race issue nor support a hint of it at all.
- You're determining what others should view as forced and what they shouldn't? That's a nice opinion child.
- You still don't know what i'm "getting at"? Surprise surprise that will happen when you don't read properly and when you make up nonsense.
Even the recent Stormwatch issue had a reboot for instance (which used a timeline change to suddenly reboot the characters, change roosters and story after the last storyline ended ... and without any build up at that). While the exact nuances are different it is similar that they gave a reboot of sorts to keep the series alive and did so in an abrupt manner. But no-one is trying to look through the changes in an attempt to call out diversity mandates, because these things happen.
- I doubt you know what everyone's opinion on one book is, as if you've actually spoken to ever individual who reads the book in the world.
Because you're doing such a great job at repeating you're statements....hint you're not!
- That's a nice opinion there.
The guy who has an issue with DC wanting a character to be Black (and feels they need to "discrete" about it) with not real reasoning has no business calling "me" ignorant. ;)
The guy who didn't think he should have to defend his points in a debate, thinks to call me "ignorant".
- "with not real reasoning". As if you could actually determine what was "real reasoning" for me child. I don't really care for your ignorant opinion child.
- If i were to enter in a debate with someone i thought was worthy of having a debate with me, then i would proceed to prove , or provide evidence, to my points. Unfortunately, you do not meet that criteria and this "conversation" is probably the closest you will ever get to having a debate with me.
I know that comprehension is not your strong suit, but I did clearly mention that Azriel was an example of a White character replacing a white character, not that he was an example of a white character replacing a white characterabruptly.
I have clearly indicated I am arguing the of a character of 1 race replacing a character of the same race separate from the concept of a character suddenly appearing into continuity because that is what they are, and trying to act as if joining the to concepts suddenly make it an issue when it individual components do not, only shows your argument has nothing to stand on.
- I know that common sense isn't your friend , or even a distant associate, because you apparently felt the need to fabricate points into my argument and then you failed at providing examples that would defeat those points.
- You can't even give examples to defeat the points that you fabricated, that's quite pathetic child.
The second Batgirl was Barbra Gordan, the first Batgirl was Bette Kane, so yes you are clearly mistaken.
- So be it. I'm sure we all know who the Asian batgirl was, it's quite irrelevant which one she came after.
Clearly that is a problem for you.
- I won't dignify this ignorance with a response.
Since you clearly refuse to define how or why DC need to introduce a Black replacement character discretely, I'm left to guess what you're actual reasoning is. But considering you're always talking about how Dick has been around for 50 years, as you're defense for point 1, I would say it is part of you're argument. I mean you should at least know what you yourself wrote.
- You clearly don't know what diversity simply for the sake of diversity means.
- I don't work for DC and therefore, i'm not obligated to brainstorm ideas or scenarios for them.
- Considering, you brought up Richard, Wally, Batgirl, Azirel, "point 1", and "point 2" i would say that all of that is a part of your incompetent and incoherent drivel. You obviously don't know what you yourself wrote. How ironic.
Yet you defend the concept with point 2 every time, which gets shot down, so can't be that trivial.
- Actually, your examples were so trivial and incompetent that they couldn't even defeat the points that you fabricated into my argument the way you wanted them to. Again, that's quite pathetic.
Once Again, comprehension is not your ally. I'm pointing out that no-one makes similar arguments when DC replaces white characters with white, so why is it so different when they do so with color? I'm pretty certain that there are different circumstances beyond various character replacements, but I would be baffled if race was an issue for white characters, so why does it need to be for Blacks? Why does DC need to worry about discretion for blacks (for the sake of being black).
- You clearly don't know what diversity simply for the sake of diversity means.
You have had to put several different points together to make an argument when those individual points fail on themselves, and continue to use one failed point to support another. Race to race replacement and character integration (before taking up a mantel) are 2 separate concepts that have existed long before Luc ever appeared. So that both concepts are suddenly being applied to Luc at the same time shouldn't be an issue as they are 2 different concepts that don't feed into eachother.
- Actually, you've attempted to fabricate nonsense into my argument and you lack the brain capacity to even do that properly. Surprise, surprise.
And your point about "diversity only/simply for the sake of diversity" is just ignorance. This implies that when an author adds the character of an ethnic group without some clear explanation, we assume its for no reason other than adding someone of that group. And while it might be true, this attitude implies there needs to be a reason for adding someone from that group. There is very little way to take this other than a writer needs to justify adding a non-white male (or whatever the norm is for the Author's location) to a plot and this should not be the case.
- My opinion is just ignorance? Typical child believing that their opinion is fact, and is above that of others. Surprise surprise. That's a nice opinion you have there by the way.
- Who is "we"? I doubt that you're included in that, however you don't determine what people do and what they don't sir. Try again.
- They clearly don't need a reason for doing so , as they're doing one without this reason. However, i won't be buying this racist trash which DC is making diverse, simply to have diversity.
- You don't determine what should not be the case for all comic book readers sir. People have, and are entitled to their own opinions and you can't do a damned thing about it. Get over it.
Yet you'reonly defense to the points I've made have revolved around Luc's abrupt introduction to the series and so my responses have been geared towards that. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with your own arguments ... or lack of.
- That would be "your" sir. Did you really underline and bold a word after you misspelled it? Hilarious.
- Or perhaps you should learn what "diversity simply/only for the sake of diversity" is instead of fabricating drivel and then attempting to say that it is a part of my argument because you apparently have nothing to speak about.
Tim and Dick is his ward.
- Feel free to argue with a canon fact from Jason.
- Here's another pic.
- The ward of Batman like Richard. I think this solves the mystery.
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