Is Jason Todd better off alone, or is he better with a team/GF?

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#1 Edited by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

From the moment DC announced that Jason was going to be apart of a team called the Outlaws, I was like What the Hell? That is totally out of character for Jason as he pretty much hates everyone and he is a character that was made to be solo since his return from the dead. Why on earth would DC want Jason apart of a team as his time on the Teen Titans when he was Robin didnt go so well, he doesnt get along with anyone. But it gets me thinking should Jason be apart of a team, should he have a girlfriend or should he be alone as i pretty much prefer.

#2 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

I cannot let go of RTAO but I'd love him to let loose more and really rip some villain apart like he was in Under the Hood.

#3 Posted by briangsharon (147 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah hes become kind of soft in a team. If anything he should be on a team but one that is far more savage than the Outlaws.

Jason Todd w/suicide squad for example.

#4 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, Jason was more hardcore when he was solo, I didnt really like scarlett in batman and robin.

#5 Posted by BlackReaper (594 posts) - - Show Bio

@briangsharon said:

Yeah hes become kind of soft in a team. If anything he should be on a team but one that is far more savage than the Outlaws.

Jason Todd w/suicide squad for example.

I agree, although, I like Roy. They should replace Starfire with someone more on their level.

#6 Posted by wessaari (613 posts) - - Show Bio

I cant imagine him with the suicide squad, that would mean he would be taking orders instead of making up his own orders. And Rhto has made a smart move in acting as they are not really a team, just a group of loose cannons hanging with each other. thats what i love about it, Jason has these tendencies to be like, ok guys leave me alone now, i wanna kill this person and they just tag along. I love the group dynamic between all of them, and the series continues to be good, even though it has a few issues that are better than others. But when i do feel in the mood to read jason without kori and roy at his side, i pick up Lost Days. I highly recommend it guys.

But back to matter at hand. I would find it weird if he were on a legitimate team. People say, oh the outlaws are stupid, he as gone soft, put him on suicide squad. Well like i said, thats actually regressing him further. yes he as toned down alot, but i think its more due to his new past with the All-Caste, and thinking more level headed. He still kills bad guys, but lately the only bad guys he's been facing are aliens. Dont forget Isuue 1, 6, and 8 were Jason was going all Beast Mode on people. Deep inside, i think Jason wants to limit the people he kills to those who really deserve it. If thats him going soft, well then i guess thats a point, but he hasn't become gun-shy.

#7 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

ultimately, roy and starfire are just dragging his character down, I like him solo, he doesnt need to talk to enough, and he has the balls to take down lots of criminals all by himself.

#8 Posted by wessaari (613 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13: he does but Jason doesnt always have to be killing criminals, he is trying to live a life dedicated to his ideals. yes lately the series hasnt featured that, mainly becuase they were on a different planet, but the upcoming Joker arc should unleash Jason's best.

Kori and Roy dont necessarily bring his character down, they just serve as people he can express himself to. If Jason had gone solo, there wouldnt be much interest in him just killing criminals. It would have to depend on who he would be after, and how he would overceom the challenges. If he does go solo, im afraid that DC is gonna turn him back into a Punisher moniker. Morrison basically did that in his run, and it about ruined the character. I understand if you like him solo, and obviously RHTO woldnt be a good fit with you, but i would recommend the Joker story in two weeks. Jason is more on his own, but working with Tim fighting against the Joker. Even if you dont like RHTO its really hard to pass that up

#9 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari: I dont really think Jason has a life anymore since hes legally dead, so he has only one side of his new life, just being the Red Hood. RHATO is just an unrealistic take on him, i mean the last time he was in a group was in countdown with donna troy and kyle rayner and told them to screw themselves before he left them. My country hasnt got the RHATO yet, it barely has anything from the new 52, i am interested in the Joker storyline coming up Death of the Family, is it? Working with Tim... I dont know he still hates Tim for replacing him, even with that one friendly conversation. Jason is not a social person, that is why I think Roy and Starfire bring his character down, plus he would have to worry about their safety, when hes solo he doesnt have to worry about anyone else except himself. I think there would be interesting stories if Jason went back to being solo, there might be stories confronting issues lie what will happen to Jason in the future, will he be able to let go of the past when the joker killed him? stuff like that i would like to see if hes solo.

#10 Posted by wessaari (613 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13: Well they can take care of themselves. and I can see Jason getting some time away from them, and i would love to see Jason solo for a bit. but i actually love their interactions, they dont act like a team and Jason still acts like himself. But some solo stories would be nice, but atm i dont think that is going to happen.

#11 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari: yes, its unfortunate that jason is stuck with people who are nothing like him, and unfortunate that hes not solo. To me Jason is the "angry" ex-robin out for vengeance and i dont know if his portrayal in RHATO shows that.

#12 Posted by wessaari (613 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13: Well RHTO is more focused on Jason actually getting past his revenge and moving on with his life on trying to exact vengeance on Batman.

#13 Posted by KnightRise (4753 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCrowbar said:

I cannot let go of RTAO but I'd love him to let loose more and really rip some villain apart like he was in Under the Hood.

This

#14 Edited by jobbernos (1420 posts) - - Show Bio

alone. hes a solo kind of guy not a teamer, and hes more badass when hes alone.

#15 Posted by SUNMAN (6902 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends on the team. But if we are just comparing Jason on RHATO vs Jason alone, than I've got to go with Jason alone every time. He was a much more compelling character on his own. With the team he's just another former robin on a random team now.

#16 Posted by redhoodnet (153 posts) - - Show Bio

So much to say... so few words to do it with

Jason has moved on with his life and his hatred against the Bat. Many have said that he wear the bat symbol on his chest to show that he is trying to come back to the good side. While that is debatable Jason is becoming more of a hero and is an Anti-Hero now. Please see Batman INC #4 if you do not believe me. Id you have been reading RHO then you know why he ends up on this team. The backstory is very well done and their is a purpose to this new team. They ended up together for a reason. Roy and Jason are both "cast off" sidekicks in their own way. Jason could stand on his own merit but he chooses to stand with his friends and his new team. In fact in both Batman and Robin and Batman INC Jason has been shown to be a team player in his own way. In his appearance in Batman and Robin he even shoots to injury as opposed to kill because he knows he is fighting for the Bat. Jason is one of the more interesting people in the new 52. He still has very deep anger issues and who can not understand that? The Joker killed him. But if you have followed the series he has made real connections. Tim Drake and him seem to have developed a real friendship. So as we see in RHO Jason has his own friends. And that is okay. If you have not been reading RHO then you are missing out. And even Superman says "Batman vouches for you"... What more do you need?

#17 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari: Yeah, but how could Jason get to the place with "moving on" with his life? Before the New 52, he still had a hatred for the bat family, and there is nothing to explain his change in attitude. Jason was far more awesome trying to destroy the bat family on his own than hanging out with people he barely knows and has more ties to dick grayson than him.

@redhoodnet: I dont like him having the bat symbol on his chest, he made it perfectly clear in the pre 52 continuity that he no longer wants to be any part of the bat family as nobody cared when he died and he was forgotten, thats the Jason I like. RHATO make no sense for jason to be apart of it, because I heard he had to deal with zombies and aliens, which is not Jasons kind of work, he is more on the batmans line of work in Gotham fighting common thugs and super criminals. I dont like it that he "made peace" with Tim supposedly, Jason is suppose to hate Tim for replacing him (I havent got anything against Tim, because i like him as well), I wouldnt call Tim, Starfire, and Roy his friends, i dont think he said they were his friends, and he does not need friends as he is at his best alone.

#18 Posted by ThanosIsMad (2168 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

@wessaari: Yeah, but how could Jason get to the place with "moving on" with his life? Before the New 52, he still had a hatred for the bat family, and there is nothing to explain his change in attitude. Jason was far more awesome trying to destroy the bat family on his own than hanging out with people he barely knows and has more ties to dick grayson than him.

@redhoodnet: I dont like him having the bat symbol on his chest, he made it perfectly clear in the pre 52 continuity that he no longer wants to be any part of the bat family as nobody cared when he died and he was forgotten, thats the Jason I like. RHATO make no sense for jason to be apart of it, because I heard he had to deal with zombies and aliens, which is not Jasons kind of work, he is more on the batmans line of work in Gotham fighting common thugs and super criminals. I dont like it that he "made peace" with Tim supposedly, Jason is suppose to hate Tim for replacing him (I havent got anything against Tim, because i like him as well), I wouldnt call Tim, Starfire, and Roy his friends, i dont think he said they were his friends, and he does not need friends as he is at his best alone.

Jason made peace with Tim prior to the reboot anyway, during the Gotham gang wars following Batman RIP. Hell, Tim even gave him a one-time password to use the JLA teleporter for him to bust out of jail. DCnU Jason is essentially a continuation of Jason post-RIP and pre-Battle For The Cowl, which butchered his personality in the first place.

#19 Posted by God_Spawn (35981 posts) - - Show Bio

Let's let him grow as a character instead of keeping him in a single dimension.

Moderator
#20 Posted by danhimself (21903 posts) - - Show Bio

he's better in a team...I feel like RHatO is kind of like Jason working his way back to being an active member of the DC Universe

#21 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThanosIsMad: No jason didnt actually, he actually tried to kill Tim in Battle for the Cowl which is after Batman R.I.P. Still they havent actually explained how Jason reached the stage of trying to become a better person, I liked Jason better when he hated Tim, it fits with the pattern. Dick hates Jason, Jason hates Tim and Tim hates Damian.

@danhimself: I dont think so, so far hes fighting zombies and aliens which is out of his area of expertise, hes a person who deals with the criminals of earth, not star wars and supernatural type villains. Hes way better solo.

#22 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1486 posts) - - Show Bio

Better in a team, as long as its the Outlaws anyways. I don't think any other team would really work save this one, because it's made up of people who are misfits at the moment just like Jason. (NOTE: I am in no way saying they've been through as much, or that they're all exactly the same. I'm simply saying they're all like outcasts at the moment. Outlaws.) Regardless, Jason's stories have massively improved since joining the Outlaws. Before he was just constantly screwing with the bat family and whining about his death and such. Now at least he's sorta put that behind him and is even making the steps to peace with them. (Before Flashpoint you NEVER would've had him sitting down to breakfast with Tim.) He also gets to forge some real connections with other characters, though I hates it's basically two of his older brother's best friends. Growth's needed in every character at some point.

#23 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: uh, what I heard so far was RHATO have crap stories, dealing with Zombies and aliens, those are the types of things that Jason does not deal with, he deals with common thugs and supervillains not the supernatural or space aliens. Starfire and Roy arent misfits, Starfire is more a hero than anti hero, and roy, the reasons for his anti-heroism were retconned for the New 52, so hes back to his hero days and they are nothing like Jason. These stories are probably worse than Batman and Robin where jason had scarlett. Jason wasnt whining abut his death, thats just a stupid thing to say, he is not the whining type, he was just saying how everyone rejected him as a hero when he was Robin and how no one cared when he died, which I dont blame him for. From what I hear he is still at odds with the Bat family and still hates the whole lot of them, probably going to try and kill them again in the future. he doesnt need them, Jason is his own man now, he doesnt his brothers friends softening his character and ruining him.

#24 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1486 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: uh, what I heard so far was RHATO have crap stories, dealing with Zombies and aliens, those are the types of things that Jason does not deal with, he deals with common thugs and supervillains not the supernatural or space aliens. Starfire and Roy arent misfits, Starfire is more a hero than anti hero, and roy, the reasons for his anti-heroism were retconned for the New 52, so hes back to his hero days and they are nothing like Jason. These stories are probably worse than Batman and Robin where jason had scarlett. Jason wasnt whining abut his death, thats just a stupid thing to say, he is not the whining type, he was just saying how everyone rejected him as a hero when he was Robin and how no one cared when he died, which I dont blame him for. From what I hear he is still at odds with the Bat family and still hates the whole lot of them, probably going to try and kill them again in the future. he doesnt need them, Jason is his own man now, he doesnt his brothers friends softening his character and ruining him.

I'mma be honest and say you shouldn't judge something if you haven't read it for yourself.

Starfire's a stranger without any solid connection to anything. Roy was fired from his position with Green Arrow and had his stocks in Queen's company taken away due to some unknown incident. This led to him becoming depressed and an alcoholic, and he attempted suicide. I'm not sure how that's back to his hero days, but that's what i'm talking about. You shouldn't talk about something if you haven't read it.

It was basically whining, with every action he took after his return being centered around what happened to him and blaming others instead of moving on as he has now.

"From what I hear" again, read the stories instead of going off second hand information. He currently hasn't attacked any of them, and has in fact helped them in numerous situations. He and Tim also seem to have a fairly good relationship now.

Call it what you want (Though I fail to see how possibly having a good relationship with his brother's softens him), but that doesn't change what's written.

#25 Posted by daredevil21134 (9093 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

Let's let him grow as a character instead of keeping him in a single dimension.

#26 Posted by neiliusprime (242 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

Let's let him grow as a character instead of keeping him in a single dimension.

Agree. I like how he is in the New 52. I definitely like him solo, but so far his character hasn't been bad.

@SUNMAN said:

Depends on the team. But if we are just comparing Jason on RHATO vs Jason alone, than I've got to go with Jason alone every time. He was a much more compelling character on his own. With the team he's just another former robin on a random team now.

totally agree, it depends on the team and what kind of offer a team has for him.

#27 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

starfire and roy provide nothing for jason's character.

#28 Posted by God_Spawn (35981 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

starfire and roy provide nothing for jason's character.

Starfire provided peace of mind for Jason. Roy has offered him a kindred friend.

Moderator
#29 Posted by jobbernos (1420 posts) - - Show Bio

anti-heroes are supposed to roll alone and it makes them more badass and interesting and the writers get to focus more on red hood himself and let him grow as a character so he can stand out instead of a whole team. having a team means that he needs people to back him up which are mostly for heroes or villains but not anti-heroes.

#30 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1486 posts) - - Show Bio

@jobbernos said:

anti-heroes are supposed to roll alone and it makes them more badass and interesting and the writers get to focus more on red hood himself and let him grow as a character so he can stand out instead of a whole team. having a team means that he needs people to back him up which are mostly for heroes or villains but not anti-heroes.

Perhaps, personal opinion after all, but how long do you think a solo series of Red Hood would last? He's got pretty much no connection to the universe save the Bat Family. What exactly would he be doing? The same things he did Pre-Flashpoint where he just showed up and messed with Bruce, Dick, and Tim in their own cities? Having a team means there are other stories/adventures he can take part in (Hell he was just in space helping Kori!) which allows for opportunity to show different sides to his character. Countdown to Final Crisis and RHATO are the only times since his resurrection that he's been doing something besides messing with his old family and I think that alone makes a team good for the characters growth.

#31 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: Piece of mind? i dont think so, Jason is still pretty angry with Bruce not avenging him. And Roy cant be a kindred friend because he and Jason have nothing in common.

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Jason is the type of character that doesnt want to connect with other characters of the DCU, because they provide him with nothing. Being solo means he can have more interesting stories than what RHATO provides, like he journeys around the world trying to find out why hes come back from the grave, to find the purpose hes come back for. The Outlaws are stunting his growth as a character, there is nothing about them that can help him grow as a character. Anyway Jason deals with street thugs and supervillains not aliens and zombies, he is not a Jedi you know.

#32 Posted by DarkDay (492 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@JasonTodd13 said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: uh, what I heard so far was RHATO have crap stories, dealing with Zombies and aliens, those are the types of things that Jason does not deal with, he deals with common thugs and supervillains not the supernatural or space aliens. Starfire and Roy arent misfits, Starfire is more a hero than anti hero, and roy, the reasons for his anti-heroism were retconned for the New 52, so hes back to his hero days and they are nothing like Jason. These stories are probably worse than Batman and Robin where jason had scarlett. Jason wasnt whining abut his death, thats just a stupid thing to say, he is not the whining type, he was just saying how everyone rejected him as a hero when he was Robin and how no one cared when he died, which I dont blame him for. From what I hear he is still at odds with the Bat family and still hates the whole lot of them, probably going to try and kill them again in the future. he doesnt need them, Jason is his own man now, he doesnt his brothers friends softening his character and ruining him.

I'mma be honest and say you shouldn't judge something if you haven't read it for yourself.

Starfire's a stranger without any solid connection to anything. Roy was fired from his position with Green Arrow and had his stocks in Queen's company taken away due to some unknown incident. This led to him becoming depressed and an alcoholic, and he attempted suicide. I'm not sure how that's back to his hero days, but that's what i'm talking about. You shouldn't talk about something if you haven't read it.

It was basically whining, with every action he took after his return being centered around what happened to him and blaming others instead of moving on as he has now.

"From what I hear" again, read the stories instead of going off second hand information. He currently hasn't attacked any of them, and has in fact helped them in numerous situations. He and Tim also seem to have a fairly good relationship now.

Call it what you want (Though I fail to see how possibly having a good relationship with his brother's softens him), but that doesn't change what's written.

Personally I think I dig the "I'm never going to forgive our father, but I'm starting to understand my brothers" dynamic that's going on. Sure he's put aside his issues with Batman but he's also moving on with his life, and that I think I love honestly because to me that's a legitimate, interesting, and very real family dynamic. Jason is sort of the black sheep making good. The rest of his family might not approve (either of him or how he's decided to live), but then he doesn't care. So very cool to me.

#33 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1486 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Jason is the type of character that doesnt want to connect with other characters of the DCU, because they provide him with nothing. Being solo means he can have more interesting stories than what RHATO provides, like he journeys around the world trying to find out why hes come back from the grave, to find the purpose hes come back for. The Outlaws are stunting his growth as a character, there is nothing about them that can help him grow as a character. Anyway Jason deals with street thugs and supervillains not aliens and zombies, he is not a Jedi you know.

Countdown to Final Crisis and RHATO both say differently, I don't see how him questioning that is supposed to be interesting but that's just me.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ComplainingAboutShowsYouDontWatch

The above is you. You've already admitted you haven't read RHATO so i'm not sure how you can judge whether the story's interesting or not. You claim Kori hasn't provided him with any piece of mind, when it's been mentioned and shown in the actual story. You claim him and Roy have nothing in common when it's been shown they do. You haven't even had the chance to read what his character's currently like, yet you say his growth's being stunted and you complain about it. You talk about how he hates the Bat Family when he outright apologized to Tim for his actions in the past. SMH, makes no sense.

Jason's at the exact same level as Bruce, Dick, and Tim as far as i'm concerned and therefore capable of dealing with more than just "street thugs".

That's exactly how I see it and why I like his current direction. Thing's aren't fixed. He's not best friends with everyone, there aren't any big family dinners, but he's moving on and letting go of the past. Doing his own thing apart from them. Very cool.

#34 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkDay: He hates the whole Batfamily, as I have said a hundred times, one friendly conversation with Tim does not mean he made peace with his adopted brothers. Jason has moved on his life yes, but i think its because hes sick of the batfamily.

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Countdown to Final Crisis isnt really applicable, at the end he told Donna Troy and Kyle Rayner to go screw themselves and left reverting back to his anti hero ways. Yes, I now I havent read Red Hood and the Outlaws, but what I hear about it is unrealistice for Jason's character, hes one of those characters determined to hate everyone. TV shows and comic books are different by the way, so that link doesnt apply to me. Tell me what do Roy and Jason have in common? I know a lot about Roy, they retconned his missing arm, and his daughter existing removing the reason he became an anti hero in the first place, so what does he have in common? nothing. All i have heard is that jason has sex with starfire, thats not peace of mind, its just screwing each other. he never apologised to Tim, never "Im sorry", he said he was not very nice to tim thats all. Jason doesnt deal with space aliens and zombies, that is not in his experienced area, hes a human who deals with human problems, yes batman is human and deals with aliens, but thats because hes part of the justice League. so far all roy and starfire are doing is holding Jason back from his true potential.

#35 Edited by DarkDay (492 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

@DarkDay: He hates the whole Batfamily, as I have said a hundred times, one friendly conversation with Tim does not mean he made peace with his adopted brothers. Jason has moved on his life yes, but i think its because hes sick of the batfamily.

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Countdown to Final Crisis isnt really applicable, at the end he told Donna Troy and Kyle Rayner to go screw themselves and left reverting back to his anti hero ways. Yes, I now I havent read Red Hood and the Outlaws, but what I hear about it is unrealistice for Jason's character, hes one of those characters determined to hate everyone. TV shows and comic books are different by the way, so that link doesnt apply to me. Tell me what do Roy and Jason have in common? I know a lot about Roy, they retconned his missing arm, and his daughter existing removing the reason he became an anti hero in the first place, so what does he have in common? nothing. All i have heard is that jason has sex with starfire, thats not peace of mind, its just screwing each other. he never apologised to Tim, never "Im sorry", he said he was not very nice to tim thats all. Jason doesnt deal with space aliens and zombies, that is not in his experienced area, hes a human who deals with human problems, yes batman is human and deals with aliens, but thats because hes part of the justice League. so far all roy and starfire are doing is holding Jason back from his true potential.

Personally I think you might be right but I also think it could go either way. I think he and Tim might have come to enough of an understanding that he could be the exception to the rule rather than the rule itself, but agreed with the bat hate but I rather like that he's stop caring. Before it seemed like his hate of them was all he had as a character, him not caring is much more awesome to me and I for one think of it as growth.

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@JasonTodd13 said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Jason is the type of character that doesnt want to connect with other characters of the DCU, because they provide him with nothing. Being solo means he can have more interesting stories than what RHATO provides, like he journeys around the world trying to find out why hes come back from the grave, to find the purpose hes come back for. The Outlaws are stunting his growth as a character, there is nothing about them that can help him grow as a character. Anyway Jason deals with street thugs and supervillains not aliens and zombies, he is not a Jedi you know.

Countdown to Final Crisis and RHATO both say differently, I don't see how him questioning that is supposed to be interesting but that's just me.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ComplainingAboutShowsYouDontWatch

The above is you. You've already admitted you haven't read RHATO so i'm not sure how you can judge whether the story's interesting or not. You claim Kori hasn't provided him with any piece of mind, when it's been mentioned and shown in the actual story. You claim him and Roy have nothing in common when it's been shown they do. You haven't even had the chance to read what his character's currently like, yet you say his growth's being stunted and you complain about it. You talk about how he hates the Bat Family when he outright apologized to Tim for his actions in the past. SMH, makes no sense.

Jason's at the exact same level as Bruce, Dick, and Tim as far as i'm concerned and therefore capable of dealing with more than just "street thugs".

That's exactly how I see it and why I like his current direction. Thing's aren't fixed. He's not best friends with everyone, there aren't any big family dinners, but he's moving on and letting go of the past. Doing his own thing apart from them. Very cool.

Agreed pretty much. I think it would be stupid if he just instantly made up with them and all was forgiven or he and Batman started working together. That's not ever going to happen, ever. But I do however think that a few members of The Bat Family can understand where Jason is coming from and while they'd never turn against their patriarch they still understand and thus even if they are towing the party line he can at least have words with them. I'm not talking easy and readily identifiable relationships, but rather something complex and maybe even a little long suffering for everyone involved. I'd be tempted to say Xavier/Magneto but even that is just sort proxy. I think the Bat family is made of those sorts of relationships though and I don't think it's particularly out of character for Jason to be the Black Sheep instead of the villain.

#36 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1486 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Countdown to Final Crisis isnt really applicable, at the end he told Donna Troy and Kyle Rayner to go screw themselves and left reverting back to his anti hero ways. Yes, I now I havent read Red Hood and the Outlaws, but what I hear about it is unrealistice for Jason's character, hes one of those characters determined to hate everyone. TV shows and comic books are different by the way, so that link doesnt apply to me. Tell me what do Roy and Jason have in common? I know a lot about Roy, they retconned his missing arm, and his daughter existing removing the reason he became an anti hero in the first place, so what does he have in common? nothing. All i have heard is that jason has sex with starfire, thats not peace of mind, its just screwing each other. he never apologised to Tim, never "Im sorry", he said he was not very nice to tim thats all. Jason doesnt deal with space aliens and zombies, that is not in his experienced area, hes a human who deals with human problems, yes batman is human and deals with aliens, but thats because hes part of the justice League. so far all roy and starfire are doing is holding Jason back from his true potential.

Let's see, where to begin?

I didn't mean it's applicable in terms of him being friends with said people, I meant in terms of him having interesting adventures and dealing with larger threats than just street thugs.

I'm not sure where you've ever gotten that Jason was "determined to hate everyone". Yet, if he's written as not doing so then that makes your point moot. Even Pre-Flashpoint he didn't hate everyone.

Can't judge something off of what you've heard. Makes no sense. You didn't look at the link did you? Because if you did you'd see it applies to all mediums of entertainment. Weak argument on your part by the way.

Yep. Admitting that he was a jerk and had messed up.

That's exactly what i'm talking about. You've only heard one thing so you assume that all Jason and Starfire do is have sex. Makes no sense.

Same could be said about Bruce and Dick at one point, yet they branched out to dealing with larger threats. They were able to do it, Jason can do it.

You haven't read RHATO, yet you continue to comment on it. This describes you perfectly:

"An all too common phenomenon among people who bash things: they don't actually look at what they're bashing."

"If you want to comment on the quality of something, try to actually watch/read/play/listen to at least a substantial part of that work."

#37 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkDay: Yes, I agree with that at least, him not caring about the Bat family is a form of growth to me.

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Jason is not the type of character who deals with the larger threats, hes a human being for goodness sake he has his limits, hes not as strong as Batman, so how can he deal with space aliens and zombies, its completely out of his character. There is no one that Jason really actually liked, I mean why on earth would he like someone, no one cared when he died, no one remembered him, the very memory of him was thrown in the garbage which obviously enraged Jason, so why would like people when no one cared? the links says tv shows, so its not comic books, and comic books are not a from of media. Starfire doesnt really talk to Jason at any point i mean it seems to me is that all she does is have sex in the new 52. Jason is the one character in the bat family that isnt suppose to do with those threats, only the rest of the batfamily is supose to deal with those thrests, because those threats dont concern jason.

#38 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1486 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

@DarkDay: Yes, I agree with that at least, him not caring about the Bat family is a form of growth to me.

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Jason is not the type of character who deals with the larger threats, hes a human being for goodness sake he has his limits, hes not as strong as Batman, so how can he deal with space aliens and zombies, its completely out of his character. There is no one that Jason really actually liked, I mean why on earth would he like someone, no one cared when he died, no one remembered him, the very memory of him was thrown in the garbage which obviously enraged Jason, so why would like people when no one cared? the links says tv shows, so its not comic books, and comic books are not a from of media. Starfire doesnt really talk to Jason at any point i mean it seems to me is that all she does is have sex in the new 52. Jason is the one character in the bat family that isnt suppose to do with those threats, only the rest of the batfamily is supose to deal with those thrests, because those threats dont concern jason.

Countdown and RHATO both say otherwise.

Everything else is exaggeration or ignorance.

#39 Posted by God_Spawn (35981 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13: He's already stated in issue 3,4, or 5 (can't remember which) of RHTO that he doesn't care about Bruce or Joker as it doesn't matter anymore. He's passed it so yes, they gave him peace of mind. They are not stunting his growth, if you have actually read the series you could see that.

Moderator
#40 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: He probably said that to shut Starfire and Roy up, because it is impossible to get over what happened to him, he was bashed by a crowbar and was caught in the explosion that killed him, then he comes back and finds his murderer still alive , murdering other people, nobody can get over that, not Jason not everyone else. they are stunting his growth, they are trying to ruin his character, trying to make him into a hero, but his hero days were over the day he died, hes an anti hero now, always will be.

#41 Posted by God_Spawn (35981 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13: No he wasn't. He was talking to himself in monologue during a fight with one of the Unknown. He said that he has to kill these things and his whole revenge against Joker and Batman doesn't matter anymore. Kori and Roy had nothing to with anything at that instance.

Moderator
#42 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: Then its talking to distract the Unknown, hes been known to talk to distract people, and usually its talk of things he doesnt mean. His vengeance for Batman and Joker is still there somewhere.

#43 Posted by God_Spawn (35981 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13: He wasn't talking to Unknown. He was talking to himself in mid thought. The Unknown had no idea what was going on his head either so you can't come up it being a telepath excuse. You can deny this all you want but this book has been going on for over a year. If you haven't read any of it then you really have no place in saying the Outlaws have held him back when if anyone has read the book is blatantly obvious.

Moderator
#44 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: Then he thinking about thoughts of what would happen if he did let go of his vengeance for Batman and the Joker, thinking of those thughts but it doesnt mean he actually did let go of his vengeance, and its not denial its truth. I heard enough of the outlaws to know hes being held back, aliens and zombies, jason is not a star wars person or a humter from supernatural.

#45 Posted by God_Spawn (35981 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13: He did because he stated on panel and to himself. No reason at all in mid fight would push beyond his issue in that position if his conviction didn't allow him too. And yeah, he is a supernatural hunter of sorts killing monsters from his training with the All Caste.

Moderator
#46 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: no he didnt, he thought of it not actually did it, big difference. And no he is not a supernatural hunter, hes a person who guns down the common street thugs.

#47 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1486 posts) - - Show Bio
Indeed then.
#48 Edited by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: lol. but never said i was an expert. by the way do you know what issue of the teen titans when dick finds out about jason's death, and he has an arguement with Bruce? i want to put it on my to get list.

#49 Posted by jobbernos (1420 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@jobbernos said:

anti-heroes are supposed to roll alone and it makes them more badass and interesting and the writers get to focus more on red hood himself and let him grow as a character so he can stand out instead of a whole team. having a team means that he needs people to back him up which are mostly for heroes or villains but not anti-heroes.

Perhaps, personal opinion after all, but how long do you think a solo series of Red Hood would last? He's got pretty much no connection to the universe save the Bat Family. What exactly would he be doing? The same things he did Pre-Flashpoint where he just showed up and messed with Bruce, Dick, and Tim in their own cities? Having a team means there are other stories/adventures he can take part in (Hell he was just in space helping Kori!) which allows for opportunity to show different sides to his character. Countdown to Final Crisis and RHATO are the only times since his resurrection that he's been doing something besides messing with his old family and I think that alone makes a team good for the characters growth.

he could start off with a team to get a story going so he can have some villains to fight then he can slowly drift away from the league. just like how hal jordan just left the justice league.

and im sure a red hood title would do fairly well since hes quite popular and has a fanbase.

he could be the DC's punisher.

#50 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1486 posts) - - Show Bio

@jobbernos said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@jobbernos said:

anti-heroes are supposed to roll alone and it makes them more badass and interesting and the writers get to focus more on red hood himself and let him grow as a character so he can stand out instead of a whole team. having a team means that he needs people to back him up which are mostly for heroes or villains but not anti-heroes.

Perhaps, personal opinion after all, but how long do you think a solo series of Red Hood would last? He's got pretty much no connection to the universe save the Bat Family. What exactly would he be doing? The same things he did Pre-Flashpoint where he just showed up and messed with Bruce, Dick, and Tim in their own cities? Having a team means there are other stories/adventures he can take part in (Hell he was just in space helping Kori!) which allows for opportunity to show different sides to his character. Countdown to Final Crisis and RHATO are the only times since his resurrection that he's been doing something besides messing with his old family and I think that alone makes a team good for the characters growth.

he could start off with a team to get a story going so he can have some villains to fight then he can slowly drift away from the league. just like how hal jordan just left the justice league.

and im sure a red hood title would do fairly well since hes quite popular and has a fanbase.

he could be the DC's punisher.

Well that's the beauty of a team book. It allows multiple people to branch out at once, while introducing villains and character development.

Well he doesn't really kill people as a hobby anymore, unlike Punisher who kills quite often.

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