A new universe but still the same problem.

#1 Posted by comkid100 (243 posts) - - Show Bio

One problem Jason todd has had since his resurection (in pre-52 and new 52) this that his ideals, loyalties and code of conduct would change. In some story arcs he would openly hate his family and hurt anyone who got in his way but in others he'd say he would never hurt them because they're his family & then in battle for the cowl he almost killed tim drake.

In batman inc. it was revealed that he is wingman and is trying to be redeem himself.

But now we're at the biggest problem I have with new 52 Jason Todd. He's back to killing and no one seems to care. I admit this problem really hasn't got a lot to do we Jason but more with everyone else. In new 52 it's said that Jason has changed and try to let go of his anger. That's fine but we never really see that in story, in a flashback or a prequal story arc. The closest we see is Jason having 1 conversation with Starfire that thats about it (I think it's in issue 6), one heart -to-heart talk with a skimpy dressed alien shouldn't fix all of Jasons problems. he was brutally murdered came back under weird circumstances and finds out his "foster" father had done nothing to avenge him and that nothing had changed. Jason should have issues & it should scar him and honestly does it really matter that Jason isn't as angry as he was when he still kills people? At first it was him trying to control crime in gotham & then just kill criminals because he thought they deserved it but now it just seems like he's doing it because he just happoends to have guns & not batarangs.

I wouldn't call this a real issue if superheroes had issues with this I mean in the red hood and the outlaws issue with superman we find out that Batman is ok with what Red Hood is doing. What? So batmans ok with Jason killing people now?

A theory I have is that Batman sees what Jason is doing as a necessary evil while he helps Batman Inc as wingman but it isn't ever brought up. Am I wrong in thinking that batman inc takes place in new 52?

Oh and one last thing Jason has a batman symbol on his shirt, Scott Lobdell in interviews said it was like a middle finger to batman, but that isn't brought up either in Red Hood and the outlaws so unless you find the interviews you won't know, you'd think that Aresonal or Starfire would be curious about Jason wearing a batman symbol on his chest.

Tell me your thoughts on this, I can some times become narrow minded. Am I over re-acting or missing some point?

#2 Posted by RaceAddict (33 posts) - - Show Bio

Isn't the Batman symbol on his shirt just there because that's the outfit he happened to have found on Kori's ship back in the beginning of the series? If it's a middle-finger to Batman it was Lobdell's choice... not something that happened on the page to make Jason choose it.

#3 Posted by The_jackolantern (445 posts) - - Show Bio

Want that outfit he found one of dicks old ones that he left there

#4 Posted by comkid100 (243 posts) - - Show Bio

@RaceAddict: @The_jackolantern: That maybe so but he's had time to change his outfit and he chooses to keep it on.

Lobdell was the starting writer for the character , Scott Lobdell chose to give him that outfit and he said giving Batman a middle-finger was that reason (according for him anyway).

Also is his outfit the only thing you have an opinion on?

#5 Posted by consolemaster001 (4938 posts) - - Show Bio

@comkid100: I always want jason to become good like batman

#6 Posted by dngn4774 (2718 posts) - - Show Bio

I honestly thought they had an unspoken arrangement where Batman wouldn't get in his way every time Red Hood decided to take justice in his own hands but in return, if he's ever in Gotham or working with a member of the bat family he's supposed to obey Batman's rules.

#7 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (5143 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm glad he doesn't have an issue with killing. At least someone in the Bat Family does , instead of locking someone up who's gonna escape in 6 months. After all he's been through Bats really doesn't have the right to tell him what to do.

#8 Edited by dngn4774 (2718 posts) - - Show Bio

@wavemotioncannon: If I was Red Hood I would never stop playing the "remember that time you let the joker kill me" card.

#9 Posted by daredevil21134 (10828 posts) - - Show Bio

@dngn4774 said:

@wavemotioncannon: If I was Red Hood I would never stop playing the "remember that time you let the joker kill me" card.

hell yeah

#10 Posted by thejman250 (154 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm glad he doesn't have an issue with killing. At least someone in the Bat Family does , instead of locking someone up who's gonna escape in 6 months. After all he's been through Bats really doesn't have the right to tell him what to do.

- He's not afraid to do what's necessary. Bruce clearly doesn't have the balls to do what's necessary, and i've lost a huge amount of respect for him.

#11 Posted by daredevil21134 (10828 posts) - - Show Bio

@wavemotioncannon said:

I'm glad he doesn't have an issue with killing. At least someone in the Bat Family does , instead of locking someone up who's gonna escape in 6 months. After all he's been through Bats really doesn't have the right to tell him what to do.

- He's not afraid to do what's necessary. Bruce clearly doesn't have the balls to do what's necessary, and i've lost a huge amount of respect for him.

I have to

#12 Posted by thejman250 (154 posts) - - Show Bio

One problem Jason todd has had since his resurection (in pre-52 and new 52) this that his ideals, loyalties and code of conduct would change. In some story arcs he would openly hate his family and hurt anyone who got in his way but in others he'd say he would never hurt them because they're his family & then in battle for the cowl he almost killed tim drake.

In batman inc. it was revealed that he is wingman and is trying to be redeem himself.

But now we're at the biggest problem I have with new 52 Jason Todd. He's back to killing and no one seems to care. I admit this problem really hasn't got a lot to do we Jason but more with everyone else. In new 52 it's said that Jason has changed and try to let go of his anger. That's fine but we never really see that in story, in a flashback or a prequal story arc. The closest we see is Jason having 1 conversation with Starfire that thats about it (I think it's in issue 6), one heart -to-heart talk with a skimpy dressed alien shouldn't fix all of Jasons problems. he was brutally murdered came back under weird circumstances and finds out his "foster" father had done nothing to avenge him and that nothing had changed. Jason should have issues & it should scar him and honestly does it really matter that Jason isn't as angry as he was when he still kills people? At first it was him trying to control crime in gotham & then just kill criminals because he thought they deserved it but now it just seems like he's doing it because he just happoends to have guns & not batarangs.

I wouldn't call this a real issue if superheroes had issues with this I mean in the red hood and the outlaws issue with superman we find out that Batman is ok with what Red Hood is doing. What? So batmans ok with Jason killing people now?

A theory I have is that Batman sees what Jason is doing as a necessary evil while he helps Batman Inc as wingman but it isn't ever brought up. Am I wrong in thinking that batman inc takes place in new 52?

Oh and one last thing Jason has a batman symbol on his shirt, Scott Lobdell in interviews said it was like a middle finger to batman, but that isn't brought up either in Red Hood and the outlaws so unless you find the interviews you won't know, you'd think that Aresonal or Starfire would be curious about Jason wearing a batman symbol on his chest.

Tell me your thoughts on this, I can some times become narrow minded. Am I over re-acting or missing some point?

- I wonder if you've read current issues of RHATO.

#13 Posted by comkid100 (243 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman250: If you mean the requiem issue I have and I am glad that Jason has "officially" re-joined the Bat-family but there's still the issue with him killing.

(I know his dead teacher said to let go of the past which could mean move on from killing people but its kind of vague. Plus I don't like the idea that Jason was taught by Zen monk assassins when he first appears as such an angry some what brat-ish character assuming that Under the hood is still cannon).

#14 Posted by thejman250 (154 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman250: If you mean the requiem issue I have and I am glad that Jason has "officially" re-joined the Bat-family but there's still the issue with him killing.

(I know his dead teacher said to let go of the past which could mean move on from killing people but its kind of vague. Plus I don't like the idea that Jason was taught by Zen monk assassins when he first appears as such an angry some what brat-ish character assuming that Under the hood is still cannon).

- Sure he kills however, it's not really an issue of him killing anyone and everyone.

- He'll kill if he deems it necessary however, we see that he didn't simply kill Freeze right away although he threatened to do so. Tim also says that it's nice to have someone who will do the things they "can't" do.

- If him killing was really an issue, then he probably would have killed Suzie in their first encounter and not in the hospital after giving her a chance to walk away.

- We can probably agree that the old Jason would have killed Suzie and probably Freeze on the spot. However, this is not the old Jason, he's changed in multiple ways.

- I believe Under the hood is still cannon, i'm not completely sure how much of it is though. However, if it is still canon it's probably different in some ways.

- If anything, Jason only kills criminals and only certain criminals when necessary unlike before where he shot them down left and right.

- Additionally, i doubt that Bruce has the authority to tell Jason anything. He didn't even have the balls to avenge his own kid (then or now), so i honestly don't give a damn about what Bruce thinks and i'm not sure if Jason does to that capacity either.

#15 Posted by daredevil21134 (10828 posts) - - Show Bio

@comkid100 said:

@thejman250: If you mean the requiem issue I have and I am glad that Jason has "officially" re-joined the Bat-family but there's still the issue with him killing.

(I know his dead teacher said to let go of the past which could mean move on from killing people but its kind of vague. Plus I don't like the idea that Jason was taught by Zen monk assassins when he first appears as such an angry some what brat-ish character assuming that Under the hood is still cannon).

- Sure he kills however, it's not really an issue of him killing anyone and everyone.

- He'll kill if he deems it necessary however, we see that he didn't simply kill Freeze right away although he threatened to do so. Tim also says that it's nice to have someone who will do the things they "can't" do.

- If him killing was really an issue, then he probably would have killed Suzie in their first encounter and not in the hospital after giving her a chance to walk away.

- We can probably agree that the old Jason would have killed Suzie and probably Freeze on the spot. However, this is not the old Jason, he's changed in multiple ways.

- I believe Under the hood is still cannon, i'm not completely sure how much of it is though. However, if it is still canon it's probably different in some ways.

- If anything, Jason only kills criminals and only certain criminals when necessary unlike before where he shot them down left and right.

- Additionally, i doubt that Bruce has the authority to tell Jason anything. He didn't even have the balls to avenge his own kid (then or now), so i honestly don't give a damn about what Bruce thinks and i'm not sure if Jason does to that capacity either.

I like the way you think

#16 Edited by comkid100 (243 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman250: With all due respect DC wouldn't kill off freeze (or at least his death would later turn out to be fake) because he's to well known in DC & I really hate the new Tim Drake because in my opinion he isn't being handled properly (but that for another time) and so I don't really count his opinion and that quote is directed towards the Joker which is a special case.

When he first met Suzie it was when he was still training with the assassins and he did kill some of her family (I forget which ones) so "sparing" her life shouldn't count since it was before he "changed".

#17 Posted by thejman250 (154 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman250: With all due respect DC wouldn't kill off freeze (or at least his death would later turn out to be fake) because he's to well known in DC & I really hate the new Tim Drake because in my opinion he isn't being handled properly (but that for another time) and so I don't really count his opinion and that quote is directed towards the Joker which is a special case.

When he first met Suzie it was when he was still training with the assassins and he did kill some of her family (I forget which ones) so "sparing" her life shouldn't count since it was before he "changed".

- You are correct (well, i agree with you at least) in saying that DC probably wouldn't have killed off Freeze.

- I don't think Tim is being done Justice either, but that is for another time, place, forum,etc.

- Yes that was the joker, and i agree that it was a special case but it does still exist.

- He spared her then, and he spared her in one of the first few issues.

- Here is the page if you needed to see:

- Additionally, he put Crux (the alien who tried to kill starfire) in arkham instead of killing him or letting starfire kill him.

#18 Posted by thejman250 (154 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman250 said:

@comkid100 said:

@thejman250: If you mean the requiem issue I have and I am glad that Jason has "officially" re-joined the Bat-family but there's still the issue with him killing.

(I know his dead teacher said to let go of the past which could mean move on from killing people but its kind of vague. Plus I don't like the idea that Jason was taught by Zen monk assassins when he first appears as such an angry some what brat-ish character assuming that Under the hood is still cannon).

- Sure he kills however, it's not really an issue of him killing anyone and everyone.

- He'll kill if he deems it necessary however, we see that he didn't simply kill Freeze right away although he threatened to do so. Tim also says that it's nice to have someone who will do the things they "can't" do.

- If him killing was really an issue, then he probably would have killed Suzie in their first encounter and not in the hospital after giving her a chance to walk away.

- We can probably agree that the old Jason would have killed Suzie and probably Freeze on the spot. However, this is not the old Jason, he's changed in multiple ways.

- I believe Under the hood is still cannon, i'm not completely sure how much of it is though. However, if it is still canon it's probably different in some ways.

- If anything, Jason only kills criminals and only certain criminals when necessary unlike before where he shot them down left and right.

- Additionally, i doubt that Bruce has the authority to tell Jason anything. He didn't even have the balls to avenge his own kid (then or now), so i honestly don't give a damn about what Bruce thinks and i'm not sure if Jason does to that capacity either.

I like the way you think

- Thanks.

#19 Posted by daredevil21134 (10828 posts) - - Show Bio

yup

#20 Edited by comkid100 (243 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman250:

Thanks I forgot about those pages but wasn't she later transferred to Gotham hospital for bullet wounds? (I think its the issue before the court of owls crossover) so Jason could've thought she'd bled out.

(I admit it is unlikely.)

#21 Edited by thejman250 (154 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman250:

Thanks I forgot about those pages but wasn't she later transferred to Gotham hospital for bullet wounds? (I think its the issue before the court of owls crossover) so Jason could've thought she'd bled out.

(I admit it is unlikely.)

- Yea her father transferred her to Gotham because it had some of the best hospitals.

- He knew her father was still alive as well, so i doubt that he would think she wouldn't have been saved. However, this is still a possibility.

- He did also give her a chance in gotham before she made her choice(I'm not sure if i mentioned this already).

#22 Posted by daredevil21134 (10828 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason rules

#23 Posted by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio

@dngn4774 said:

I honestly thought they had an unspoken arrangement where Batman wouldn't get in his way every time Red Hood decided to take justice in his own hands but in return, if he's ever in Gotham or working with a member of the bat family he's supposed to obey Batman's rules.

Yep

#24 Posted by wessaari (622 posts) - - Show Bio

I wouldn't say that he is "officially" part of the Bat-Family again, but he might be considered an ally. Jason has let go alot of his anger, and realized that he has had a part in what he has become, but I still think that Jason shouldn't be so buddy buddy with everyone. I like the idea of Tim and Jason being close, as Tim is sort of on the outs of the Bat-Clan in the storeis, besides Batman Inc (which I really dont like and glad that it will end in July). But, Jason doesn't need to redeem himself to Bruce, Bruce needs to be willing to not hate his son, and I think he has done that. He doesn't want to fight Jason anymore, and admits that he has proven himself when time has called for it, but he doesn't need to be Wingman to do that. Jason can still be Red Hood, still do some good, while still having the will to kill.

I think Bats is ok with what Jason is doing, because he can't control what Jason is doing anymore. He will accpet his help, and Jason has shown to have restraint in these situations, so Bruce can count on him when the chips are down, but Jason will do what he wants on his own time. Batman Inc is really not benefitial to Jason, as Wingman isn't something that he needs to be.

The Bat-symbol thing started out as a middle finger thing, but it was revealed that in issue 6, it was the armor that Jason found on Kori's ship.

I think you have some valid concerns, especially with Batman inc, but Jason really has let go alot of his anger, and that doesn't mean he has to stop at what he sees as necessary. My hope is that Jason will be only Red Hood for the future, and that he will continue with his own brand of justice, even if he and Bruce are on a better level.

This edit will also create new pages on Comic Vine for:

Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

Comment and Save

Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other Comic Vine users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll send you an email once approved.