#151 Posted by Freefa11 (2485 posts) - - Show Bio

@bossmonster: Going by the image as drawn doesn't help at all, IMO. I mean, in panel 1 we already see the explosion. That means the light from the explosion has already reached the place Flash is supposedly moving all these people to at massive FTL speeds, which also means all the EM radiation released should have reached most of the populace and blinded, killed, or rendered everyone in range terminally ill. A mushroom cloud also doesn't form immediately, but within a few seconds or so, a vastly greater timeframe than the 0.00001 microseconds given.

It's pretty obvious the author just wanted to have the Flash do something totally amazing, without actually thinking of what it would entail. The actual "feat," supposedly saving the entire populace of the city after a nuclear bomb detonated, using pure speed, is pretty much contradicted by both the author's statement he was moving slower than light, and by what we are actually shown, which is survivors not showing up until well after the light of the bomb reached the same location.

Moreover, I would say it is ultimately PIS anyway. There are a number of high-profile events that involved Wally just barely surpassing the light barrier, or needing great effort to do so. In Final Crisis he and Barry really needed to push it to surpass lightspeed at the end, even though the Black Racer had been pursuing them for a while. When he was fighting Zoom, he needed Bart and Gary to accelerate to lightspeed. I'm pretty sure there have been at least a couple of other times as well. Going trillions of times lightspeed is, IMO, akin to when Quicksilver was written as outrunning radio waves (i.e. its nonsense and the author didn't quite understand what he was actually doing).

Since he's going at near-light speed, we can use E = mc^2

No, that's just his total mass-energy at rest. Relativistic kinetic energy is given by the Lorentz equation E=mc^2/[(1-v^2/c^2)^1/2]. As you can see, if v=0, then the equation reduces to E=mc^2, so that is the minimum total energy an object can have. The maximum energy goes to infinity as v goes to c, and becomes undefined at v=c due to dividing by zero (and becomes complex at v>c due to taking the square root of a negative number).

#152 Posted by Raw_Material (3472 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman. Anyone who says he doesn't is clueless. Flash is not superhuman in strength and generates his force through supersonic speed. Supes is already built of strength, and steel.

#153 Edited by AngryHulks (3116 posts) - - Show Bio

@freefa11 said:

@angryhulks said:

Since he's going at near-light speed, we can use E = mc^2

No, that's just his total mass-energy at rest. Relativistic kinetic energy is given by the Lorentz equation E=mc^2/[(1-v^2/c^2)^1/2]. As you can see, if v=0, then the equation reduces to E=mc^2, so that is the minimum total energy an object can have. The maximum energy goes to infinity as v goes to c, and becomes undefined at v=c due to dividing by zero (and becomes complex at v>c due to taking the square root of a negative number).

I'll use Lorentz equation to calculate for energy again, but however, I'm still right when I said that it takes infinite amount of energy to accelerate a mass to the speed of light, and so the amount of kinetic energy should also be infinite, which we know that's as good as a universe buster which Flash isn't even a planet buster.

I'm using 99.99% the speed of light here and 300 g for the mass of the fist.

According to Lorentz equation, E = 5.3936097e+16 Joules, that's 12.9 megaton, that's twice of my erroneous E = mc^2 figure, but that's about the maximum yield of Ivy Mike, the first H-Bomb.

Regardless, Superman should punch harder by feats (using artistic evaluation instead).

#154 Edited by Freefa11 (2485 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks: I wasn't questioning the infinite energy part, which is correct, just where you used E=mc^2 for the maximum energy Superman could hit with.

When I run the numbers you just gave, I get 1.9E18 J. I'm also doubtful using just the mass of the fist is appropriate, since it is not a discreet object, but directly connected to the rest of his body. I've seen people try to make this kind of argument in real-world situations, and it is usually shot down pretty quickly.

#155 Edited by Dredeuced (6210 posts) - - Show Bio

@freefa11 said:

@bossmonster: Going by the image as drawn doesn't help at all, IMO. I mean, in panel 1 we already see the explosion. That means the light from the explosion has already reached the place Flash is supposedly moving all these people to at massive FTL speeds, which also means all the EM radiation released should have reached most of the populace and blinded, killed, or rendered everyone in range terminally ill. A mushroom cloud also doesn't form immediately, but within a few seconds or so, a vastly greater timeframe than the 0.00001 microseconds given.

It's pretty obvious the author just wanted to have the Flash do something totally amazing, without actually thinking of what it would entail. The actual "feat," supposedly saving the entire populace of the city after a nuclear bomb detonated, using pure speed, is pretty much contradicted by both the author's statement he was moving slower than light, and by what we are actually shown, which is survivors not showing up until well after the light of the bomb reached the same location.

Moreover, I would say it is ultimately PIS anyway. There are a number of high-profile events that involved Wally just barely surpassing the light barrier, or needing great effort to do so. In Final Crisis he and Barry really needed to push it to surpass lightspeed at the end, even though the Black Racer had been pursuing them for a while. When he was fighting Zoom, he needed Bart and Gary to accelerate to lightspeed. I'm pretty sure there have been at least a couple of other times as well. Going trillions of times lightspeed is, IMO, akin to when Quicksilver was written as outrunning radio waves (i.e. its nonsense and the author didn't quite understand what he was actually doing).

@angryhulks said:

Since he's going at near-light speed, we can use E = mc^2

No, that's just his total mass-energy at rest. Relativistic kinetic energy is given by the Lorentz equation E=mc^2/[(1-v^2/c^2)^1/2]. As you can see, if v=0, then the equation reduces to E=mc^2, so that is the minimum total energy an object can have. The maximum energy goes to infinity as v goes to c, and becomes undefined at v=c due to dividing by zero (and becomes complex at v>c due to taking the square root of a negative number).

Wally has never needed help to accelerate to lightspeed since he learned the speed formula/kobra incident (didn't need the formula after that). When he took Jay and Bart's speed he instantly and involuntarily jumped to lightspeed without even attempting to accelerate, which is different from NEEDING it considering both Jay and Bart are lightspeeders in their own right. I can show you a dozen times where Flash breaks lightspeed without any help if you really want. It was a limitation he surpassed in 1995.

I also think high profile events are the worst indications of character consistency and ability. In order for everyone to shine, all characters are reduced to a median level of ability, or sometimes even worse, like when stuff like Identity Crisis happens. Generally speaking, the guy who's writing the big event has not, and is not expected to have, read every single issue of every appearance of every character that is included in the event he is writing to make sure everything is 100% logically consistent. I'd never base what a character is capable of more heavily on major events.

#156 Edited by AngryHulks (3116 posts) - - Show Bio

@freefa11 said:

@angryhulks: I wasn't questioning the infinite energy part, which is correct, just where you used E=mc^2 for the maximum energy Superman could hit with.

When I run the numbers you just gave, I get 1.9E18 J. I'm also doubtful using just the mass of the fist is appropriate, since it is not a discreet object, but directly connected to the rest of his body. I've seen people try to make this kind of argument in real-world situations, and it is usually shot down pretty quickly.

Hmm... This looks weird, I'll show you my math, just in case one of us get it wrong we can address it. But this time I'll use the mass of the entire body.

Oh, and I think Google's calculator make a mistake when I take the square root.

At near light speed, we can actually estimate by doubling the E = mc^2 figure, I calculated for 100 kg and I get about 4.2 gigatons.

Variables:

99% of light speed = 299,762,479 m/s

Light speed = 299,792,458 m/s

Mass of Wally West = 86 kg

Calculation:

I'm not typing in unit because it looks messy in computer, but I already done this on paper so it's alright.

E=mc^2/[(1-v^2/c^2)^1/2]

E = [(86)(299,792,458)^2] / {[1-(299,762,479)^2] / [1-(299,792,458)^2]}^1/2

E = (7.729294537e+18) / {[-8.985754382e+16] / [-8.987551787e+16]}^1/2

E = (7.729294537e+18) / (0.9998000115)^1/2

E = (7.729294537e+18) / 0.9999000008

E = 7.73e+18 joules

Which is 1,847 megatons, which is about 1/3 the total yield of the world's nuclear arsenal at the height of Cold War.

That's how powerful it is.

#157 Posted by Freefa11 (2485 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: I'm not saying I don't think Wally can't pass lightspeed, I'm just doubtful how easily he can do it, because there are a number of times, even in his own comics, where it seems being able to casually hit 1,000,000c would be incredibly helpful, and yet he doesn't seem to even come close to it.

I actually understand your issues with "major events" (particularly Identity Crisis, which had loads of problems for everyone who wasn't Deathstroke), but to me the most telling one is Zoom. That was an event purely from the Flash comics, and involved no one but speedsters, so it seems like the writer should have had free reign to make Wally run however fast he felt like. And in the scene I mentioned before, Wally was getting his butt kicked by Zoom, and he didn't hit lightspeed until after he took Jay and Bart's. If Wally can get to 1 trillion c in 0.00001 microseconds, why is he bumming around at sublight while Zoom is making a fool of him? Even in the climax of the arc, I don't think Wally was hitting a trillion c.

I don't know what comic the bomb feat comes from, so I also don't know when it takes place in Wally's chronology, but I have read a few of the more prominent Flash stories, and trillions of c seems grossly disproportionate to everything else I've seen from him. I would find it vastly more consistent with his abilities if he had actually just used time travel to go back and rescue everyone moments before the bomb went off, than being able to hit such a ludicrous velocity.

@freefa11 said:

@angryhulks: I wasn't questioning the infinite energy part, which is correct, just where you used E=mc^2 for the maximum energy Superman could hit with.

When I run the numbers you just gave, I get 1.9E18 J. I'm also doubtful using just the mass of the fist is appropriate, since it is not a discreet object, but directly connected to the rest of his body. I've seen people try to make this kind of argument in real-world situations, and it is usually shot down pretty quickly.

Hmm... This looks weird, I'll show you my math, just in case one of us get it wrong we can address it. But this time I'll use the mass of the entire body.

Oh, and I think Google's calculator make a mistake when I take the square root.

At near light speed, we can actually estimate by doubling the E = mc^2 figure, I calculated for 100 kg and I get about 4.2 gigatons.

Variables:

99% of light speed = 299,762,479 m/s

Light speed = 299,792,458 m/s

Mass of Wally West = 86 kg

Calculation:

I'm not typing in unit because it looks messy in computer, but I already done this on paper so it's alright.

E=mc^2/[(1-v^2/c^2)^1/2]

E = [(86)(299,792,458)^2] / {[1-(299,762,479)^2] / [1-(299,792,458)^2]}^1/2

I think that last line might be the problem. 1-v^2/c^2 doesn't break up into two expressions like that. If you check the units, you can see that you're subtracting m/s from 1 (unit-less), which shouldn't give a meaningful answer. The easiest way to simplify it is to use a percentage of lightspeed, i.e. you're using 99% lightspeed = 0.99c. So the denominator (the gamma factor) looks like (1-0.99^2*c^2/c^2)^(1/2), the c's cancel, and it just becomes

(1-0.99^2)^(1/2)

At .99c I get E=6.37E17J.

#158 Posted by AngryHulks (3116 posts) - - Show Bio

@freefa11 said:

@dredeuced: I'm not saying I don't think Wally can't pass lightspeed, I'm just doubtful how easily he can do it, because there are a number of times, even in his own comics, where it seems being able to casually hit 1,000,000c would be incredibly helpful, and yet he doesn't seem to even come close to it.

I actually understand your issues with "major events" (particularly Identity Crisis, which had loads of problems for everyone who wasn't Deathstroke), but to me the most telling one is Zoom. That was an event purely from the Flash comics, and involved no one but speedsters, so it seems like the writer should have had free reign to make Wally run however fast he felt like. And in the scene I mentioned before, Wally was getting his butt kicked by Zoom, and he didn't hit lightspeed until after he took Jay and Bart's. If Wally can get to 1 trillion c in 0.00001 microseconds, why is he bumming around at sublight while Zoom is making a fool of him? Even in the climax of the arc, I don't think Wally was hitting a trillion c.

I don't know what comic the bomb feat comes from, so I also don't know when it takes place in Wally's chronology, but I have read a few of the more prominent Flash stories, and trillions of c seems grossly disproportionate to everything else I've seen from him. I would find it vastly more consistent with his abilities if he had actually just used time travel to go back and rescue everyone moments before the bomb went off, than being able to hit such a ludicrous velocity.

@angryhulks said:

@freefa11 said:

@angryhulks: I wasn't questioning the infinite energy part, which is correct, just where you used E=mc^2 for the maximum energy Superman could hit with.

When I run the numbers you just gave, I get 1.9E18 J. I'm also doubtful using just the mass of the fist is appropriate, since it is not a discreet object, but directly connected to the rest of his body. I've seen people try to make this kind of argument in real-world situations, and it is usually shot down pretty quickly.

Hmm... This looks weird, I'll show you my math, just in case one of us get it wrong we can address it. But this time I'll use the mass of the entire body.

Oh, and I think Google's calculator make a mistake when I take the square root.

At near light speed, we can actually estimate by doubling the E = mc^2 figure, I calculated for 100 kg and I get about 4.2 gigatons.

Variables:

99% of light speed = 299,762,479 m/s

Light speed = 299,792,458 m/s

Mass of Wally West = 86 kg

Calculation:

I'm not typing in unit because it looks messy in computer, but I already done this on paper so it's alright.

E=mc^2/[(1-v^2/c^2)^1/2]

E = [(86)(299,792,458)^2] / {[1-(299,762,479)^2] / [1-(299,792,458)^2]}^1/2

I think that last line might be the problem. 1-v^2/c^2 doesn't break up into two expressions like that. If you check the units, you can see that you're subtracting m/s from 1 (unit-less), which shouldn't give a meaningful answer. The easiest way to simplify it is to use a percentage of lightspeed, i.e. you're using 99% lightspeed = 0.99c. So the denominator (the gamma factor) looks like (1-0.99^2*c^2/c^2)^(1/2), the c's cancel, and it just becomes

(1-0.99^2)^(1/2)

At .99c I get E=6.37E17J.

So it's only 152 megatons, given the Flash's mass and speed, I don't think 6.37e+17 Joules is a reasonable answer. It's far lesser than the minimum total energy a mass could have. From mass-energy equation, it yielded 1,847 megatons. It should be greater than the rest value if it at near-light speed.

#159 Edited by Freefa11 (2485 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry, it should be 6.37E19, not E17, so around 15,000 megatons.

#160 Edited by AngryHulks (3116 posts) - - Show Bio

@freefa11 said:

Sorry, it should be 6.37E19, not 17, so around 15,000 megatons.

That's probably better, though it's still a bit too large, I'll try to validate it other way around.

Oh, and I look up on my physics text book again, the way you write the equation is confusing, that's why I make a mistake during the calculation. This is how the clean one looks like.

#161 Posted by theviperrko (411 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash becuse of the speed force

#162 Posted by Bossmonster (2594 posts) - - Show Bio

@freefa11: I'm surprised this popped up again.

So anyway.

1) I'm not going to say that what the author wrote was a contradiction. Reason being, is that it's clear (to me) the author was trying to make a feat that was spectacular. Something to prove his prowess. The thought and time of creating the feat itself shows this. However, throwing in the bit about the speed of light was the author just making a mistake. Had it been left out completely, this feat would be exactly what it was intended and we wouldn't have a debate on our hands about it. However he put it in there and people are like "what?" It is more likely that the author though the speed of light was faster than he wanted Wally to be slower.

2)I think you and I just have different perspectives. As I said somewhere before, the bomb had went off. People should have already been killed. Yet, the fact of the matter his, he was able to start moving after the explosion, reach the city, and move all of it's people before the city was fully destroyed. Even if we ignore all of the other stuff and just focus on the feat itself, he would be proven FTL.


#163 Edited by dum529001 (2115 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks:

The particles waves that the sun throws out are not infinite in energy.

Are you saying that every burst of electromagnietic radiation that occurs is infinte in energy?

Are you of the opinion that light-speed is the "universal-speed limit"? If so, why?

That theory sure skips over things like black holes and the expanding universe at large.

The speed of light is not infinte. The speed of light is a finite number. it's just a finite variable in an infinite universe. I don't see why some scientist and people in general cling to the idea of a "universal-speed limit".

#164 Posted by AngryHulks (3116 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks:

The particles waves that the sun throws out are not infinite in energy.

Are you saying that every burst of electromagnietic radiation that occurs is infinte in energy?

Are you of the opinion that light-speed is the "universal-speed limit"? If so, why?

That theory sure skips over things like black holes and the expanding universe at large.

The speed of light is not infinte. The speed of light is a finite number. it's just a finite variable in an infinite universe. I don't see why some scientist and people in general cling to the idea of a "universal-speed limit".

I'm not sure what ticks you. I'm saying it require the infinite amount of energy to accelerate a mass to the speed of light. Well, except for the light and any other electromagnetic radiation of course.

Speed of light is finite, and I never said that speed of light is infinite. Electromagnetic radiation (photon of every frequencies) are massless particle, that's why they don't need infinite energy, they're unlike baryonic matters. It's an exception. Even neutrinos are not light speed because it have mass.

#165 Edited by dum529001 (2115 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks:

Electromagnetic radiation is a prarticle wave.

Without mass there is no force. Force is about mass and its rate of motion. There is nothing "massless" about force.

#166 Posted by AngryHulks (3116 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks:

Electromagnetic radiation is a prarticle wave.

Without mass there is no force. Force is about mass and its rate of motion. There is nothing "massless" about force.

I can guaranteed that I'm right about this, in fact, this should even be common knowledge.

Electromagnetic conveyor particle (photon) is massless, and this has been solidly established in the scientific community. It can travel as fast as light, well, because it's light and is massless.

Light is had a very weird behavior, and actually force can't affect light, and no, according to general relativity, gravity is not a force.

#168 Edited by dum529001 (2115 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks:

Gravity is a force. Who told told you that gravity is not a force? Its about how much one object accelerates toward another due the effect of mass diffences.

There is no force without mass.

Electromagnetic radiation is a particle wave. I'm sure you'll find this defintion to be the more logical one and accepted in the scienctific communtiy as well.

Force is about mass and its rate of motion. There is nothing "massless" about force.

#169 Edited by AngryHulks (3116 posts) - - Show Bio

@dum529001 said:

@angryhulks:

Gravity is a force. Who told told you that gravity is not a force? Its about how much one object accelerates toward another due the effect of mass diffences.

There is no force without mass.

Electromagnetic radiation is a prarticle wave. I'm sure you'll find this defintion to be the more logical one and accepted in the scinctific communtiy as well.

Force is about mass and its rate of motion. There is nothing "massless" about force.

It's from Cornell University.

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=782

If you're still in doubt, type in "photon massless" and I can bet that all the credible source will say that photon is massless.

I didn't say that electromagnetic radiation is not a particle wave nor I'm denying that. I know electromagnetic radiation is a particle, but it also behave as a wave. What is this have to do with debate anyway? Light is a particle, but not baryonic particle, so it doesn't have mass.

And no force without mass, it's true in someway, but it's way more complicated than that. There are a lot of exceptions and something else.

#170 Posted by dum529001 (2115 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks:

Like I said before: No matter the way you want to say it, there is no such thing as a "massless" force.

#171 Posted by AngryHulks (3116 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks:

Like I said before: No matter the way you want to say it, there is no such thing as a "massless" force.

When did I say anything about massless force? These two words doesn't even make sense to begin with.

And still, photon is massless, that's pretty much my main point here. Where are you trying to get to anyway?

#172 Posted by tensor (6244 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash durability has to be higher than superman to have a harder punch

#174 Posted by SlimJ87D (11831 posts) - - Show Bio

@tensor said:

Flash durability has to be higher than superman to have a harder punch

Flash's durability increases the faster he goes as his time zone is changed from you and I. Yes indeed his durability increases, he has commented on being able to take blows from heavy hitters many times because of the speed force.

#175 Posted by CaptnMcDeadpool (976 posts) - - Show Bio

@freefa11 said:

@dredeuced: I'm not saying I don't think Wally can't pass lightspeed, I'm just doubtful how easily he can do it, because there are a number of times, even in his own comics, where it seems being able to casually hit 1,000,000c would be incredibly helpful, and yet he doesn't seem to even come close to it.

And this indeed, was the case when Wally first started regularly crossing the light speed barrier. In fact, crossing the light speed barrier meant "skirting the edge of the speed force". However, as time went on, Wally had over the top feats (sorry, I know this is probably repetitive...) like searching a crowd of 1/2 million faces in a pico second or carrying on a fight on two sides of the planet (JLA Elite?)...with different opponents, disabling Mirror Masters gun in a pico second, etc...all which place Wally way, way over light speed...yet, no skirting of the edge of the speed force is mentioned. You also have to take into account different writers, who all made their mark on the character, most prominently, Mark Waid, Grant Morrision and Geoff Johns. Each one had a different way to express Wally's speed; obviously, there are going to be some inconsistencies and I tend to chalk said discrepancies up to just that.

I actually understand your issues with "major events" (particularly Identity Crisis, which had loads of problems for everyone who wasn't Deathstroke), but to me the most telling one is Zoom. That was an event purely from the Flash comics, and involved no one but speedsters, so it seems like the writer should have had free reign to make Wally run however fast he felt like. And in the scene I mentioned before, Wally was getting his butt kicked by Zoom, and he didn't hit lightspeed until after he took Jay and Bart's. If Wally can get to 1 trillion c in 0.00001 microseconds, why is he bumming around at sublight while Zoom is making a fool of him? Even in the climax of the arc, I don't think Wally was hitting a trillion c.

Well...you could also consider the perspective that Johns was trying to get across with the character Zoom. He created (in my opinion) the fastest character in all of comic books. Wally's needing to be amped from Jesse Quick, Jay Garrick and Bart simply underscored this fact. So, I guess I'm saying Wally should not have been undersold on that so much as Zolomon's speed was simply being underscored in that book.

I don't know what comic the bomb feat comes from, so I also don't know when it takes place in Wally's chronology, but I have read a few of the more prominent Flash stories, and trillions of c seems grossly disproportionate to everything else I've seen from him.

JLA 89. That is a bit of a wonky feat because the narration says he was "a hair under light speed".

I would find it vastly more consistent with his abilities if he had actually just used time travel to go back and rescue everyone moments before the bomb went off, than being able to hit such a ludicrous velocity.

I actually agree with this statement. Wally had proven capable of regularly travelling time on sheer speed alone at this point and easily could've performed this feat within the same frozen time line. This would've made logical sense. Again, different writers throw us curves.

#176 Posted by CaptnMcDeadpool (976 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@tensor said:

Flash durability has to be higher than superman to have a harder punch

Flash's durability increases the faster he goes as his time zone is changed from you and I. Yes indeed his durability increases, he has commented on being able to take blows from heavy hitters many times because of the speed force.

I tend to agree with this statement, as the speed force aura appears to grant him a measure of protection against the blunt force trauma he delivers. I don't think this scan is the best to support the idea, however.

Notice the speed force revved his reflexes at the last instant, so Mongul got a smaller piece of him than if he had not moved at the last instant. On the previous page, he is not moving hardly at all:

Just a thought.

#177 Edited by Bruticus112 (132 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't answered the quetion yet lol, I've been commenting to much about force. Power=force (strength) x velocity (speed). Strength is actially the ability to produce a lot of force, for example when you lift something you use force against that object, and if you try to force your punch through something you definitly need to be strong. And then we have speed, the ability to move quickly. Power is makes you able to produce force quickly. Superman is far stronger but Flash is much faster. Since Superman has a heck a lot of strength and speed, and Flash only has speed, Superman should hit harder.

BTW, I edited this comment, I learned that strength is the ability to produce force just a couple of hours ago at this site:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Difference_between_strength_and_power

#178 Edited by dum529001 (2115 posts) - - Show Bio

@bruticus112:

Strength and power are the same when it comes to skeleto-muscular strength since it involves speed, durabilty, and producing force within certain time-span(how short a time depends on the velocity of the punch).

"The hardest punch is the one you don't see coming".

#179 Posted by Dredeuced (6210 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@tensor said:

Flash durability has to be higher than superman to have a harder punch

Flash's durability increases the faster he goes as his time zone is changed from you and I. Yes indeed his durability increases, he has commented on being able to take blows from heavy hitters many times because of the speed force.

I tend to agree with this statement, as the speed force aura appears to grant him a measure of protection against the blunt force trauma he delivers. I don't think this scan is the best to support the idea, however.

Notice the speed force revved his reflexes at the last instant, so Mongul got a smaller piece of him than if he had not moved at the last instant. On the previous page, he is not moving hardly at all:

Just a thought.

Yeah but it's not the only time Wally's taken a direct hit from a heavy hitter. I mean there are guys who've one hit KO'd superman that tried to crush Wally and didn't even significantly injure him, he's eaten dozens of punches from Amazo who hits harder than Superman etc etc.

#180 Posted by Petey_is_Spidey (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

In theory Flash should have it, but Superman has shown far better feats, so Supes.

#181 Edited by hardcorefakes (694 posts) - - Show Bio

In theory Flash should have it, but Superman has shown far better feats, so Supes.

Feats trump theory any day.

#182 Edited by CaptnMcDeadpool (976 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: I dont rank Flashs durability as upper echelon...there are just as many feats of him getting hurt. No doubt Flash is powerful....his durability is questionable at best. And again...Flash 102 against Mongul is not a good feat to use to support this notion.

#183 Edited by Dredeuced (6210 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: I dont rank Flashs durability as upper echelon...there are just as many feats of him getting hurt. No doubt Flash is powerful....his durability is questionable at best. And again...Flash 102 against Mongul is not a good feat to use to support this notion.

Taking thousands of hits from Zoom, dozens from Amazo, untold from Professor Zoom (they kind that destroy the city around them), etc etc. Wally frequently and consistently takes hits from people who hit incredibly hard without going down. While his durability isn't as touted as Superman, basically everyone who punches Superman in the JL comics punches Flash, too, and Flash ain't dead yet.

#184 Edited by CaptnMcDeadpool (976 posts) - - Show Bio

@captnmcdeadpool said:

@dredeuced: I dont rank Flashs durability as upper echelon...there are just as many feats of him getting hurt. No doubt Flash is powerful....his durability is questionable at best. And again...Flash 102 against Mongul is not a good feat to use to support this notion.

Taking thousands of hits from Zoom, dozens from Amazo, untold from Professor Zoom (they kind that destroy the city around them), etc etc. Wally frequently and consistently takes hits from people who hit incredibly hard without going down. While his durability isn't as touted as Superman, basically everyone who punches Superman in the JL comics punches Flash, too, and Flash ain't dead yet.

These are all true...I just meant in the broader spectrum of the term durability, like enduring flesh wounds (puncture, cuts, etc...). But yeah, as I mentioned, the speed force aura does grant a measure of protection against the blunt force trauma he delivers. He still appears to exercise caution even then:

#185 Posted by JayAaerow (522 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman can most definitely punch harder. Did anyone forget he too can do the Infinite Mass Punch? He's not as fast as Flash yeah but he's fast enough to pull it off.

#186 Posted by Guardian_of_Gravity (2990 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks: Your math forgets to take in relatavistic mass gain. For which a handy calculator is available on the interwebs.

#187 Posted by AngryHulks (3116 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks: Your math forgets to take in relatavistic mass gain. For which a handy calculator is available on the interwebs.

Another guy did not mention this, so I think I'll save this for later. There are a lot of confusion in here.

Summer is almost over anyway, by then I can seek help from physics major students.

#188 Posted by TJSH96 (937 posts) - - Show Bio

The more speed you have the more powerful you're punch will be, so the Flash has more powerful punches than Superman.

#189 Posted by Bruticus112 (132 posts) - - Show Bio

@tjsh96: Actially you also have to be strong to hit hard because power=force (strength) x velocity (speed). Strength produces force, speed makes a punch harder to see coming which makes it more powerful aswell.

#190 Posted by TJSH96 (937 posts) - - Show Bio

@bruticus112:

Lifting weights and being strong has nothing to do with hitting hard or producing speed. If it did, then weight-lifters and strongmen would be able to hit harder than UFC fighters, be faster and not get beaten by UFC fighters every-time they get into a fight with a UFC fighter.

Superman is much better than Flash at lifting things but the Flash is faster and has more powerful punches and kicks.

Also, if you want to reply to me, click the reply button on the top-right-hand-side if one of my messages so that I know that you've replied to me.

#191 Posted by Ifoughtgalactus (386 posts) - - Show Bio

I think this question needs to have more rules attached to it, otherwise this debate can go on for a while... It's hard to conclude an experiment without there being any controls right?

Are both in a stand still position? Are they allowed to fly/run to boost the velocity of their punch? Which Flash is this? Which Supes is this? Does Flash's nose itch? It's hard to make an educated answer without this knowledge (at least for me).

But if we're just theorizing, then I give the edge to Flash. The Speed-force's capabilities trump that of even a sun-dipped Kryptonian (not to sure about DC one million Kal El). But I think that if Flash taps into the deepest depths of the Speed-force, the multiverse would just implode or it (Speed-force) would prevent him from even unleashing such a devastating punch. Who knows what kind of crap would happen to space-time.

#193 Posted by TheAllOutBrawl (19 posts) - - Show Bio

F=MA (mass and acceleration). Superman has a bit more mass, just a little bit more, and Flash is MUCH faster. I like Superman more, but I'll have to go with Flash.

#194 Edited by Bruticus112 (132 posts) - - Show Bio
#195 Posted by TJSH96 (937 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash. Superman is stronger than Flash, but being strong has nothing to do with punching-power.

#196 Edited by TJSH96 (937 posts) - - Show Bio

@bruticus112:

If you want to reply to me then click on the reply button so that I know that you've replied to me.

That Wiki answers article is incorrect. And although Superman is stronger than the Flash, STRENGTH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PUNCHING POWER! The Flash could hit with a LOT more power than Superman.

#197 Edited by Bruticus112 (132 posts) - - Show Bio

@tjsh96:

I do click on the reply button. Comic vine must mess something up.

I guess Flash can hit harder than Supes if Flash and Supes punches with all their power, since Wonder Woman said that Zooms punches hurts more than Supermans punches and I think Flash is as fast or faster than Zoom (I dont know much about Zoom though). Even if strength aint a part in punching power, mass and density is still important, which probably is why strong but slow characters still can hit hard. I'm just trying to say why speed is not the only factor in punching power. Sorry for the trouble.

#198 Edited by Omnicrono (2837 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:

Everyone should follow this link about common strength and speed misconceptions, it will show how Flash can punch harder then just about the entire comic universe. SPEED/STRENGTH

Also, here's a scan that shows Wonder Woman saying Zoom's punches hurt more then Superman's because he can run light speed, not because of his strength.

Does it explain how Flash's fist/body is durable enough to withstand the force of such a blow? (Seeing as how his durability isn't much more than a regular human's, as far as I know.)

This has never really made sense to me. Does the speed and force behind the punch somehow support and protect the body?

EDIT: Nevermind. I just read the post stating that the Speed Force somehow shields him.

#199 Posted by kingmark14 (1025 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash might have a faster punch, but Supes has immense super strength along with the speed. Flash might send you flying with a headache, but Supes will send you flying HEADLESS. That's just my two cents

#200 Edited by SlimJ87D (11831 posts) - - Show Bio