#201 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:
@kingmark14 said:

Flash might have a faster punch, but Supes has immense super strength along with the speed. Flash might send you flying with a headache, but Supes will send you flying HEADLESS. That's just my two cents

Come back after you read this.

http://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-training/boxing-workouts/why-lifting-weights-wont-increase-punching-power

However, I've watched documentary where they tested the punching strength of the strongmen (they're not martial artists) and when the force gauge reading come out, the documentary crews stated that they "punched harder than most heavy weight boxer." In human's experience, human can't build up as much punching speed to make significant difference compared to the mass of the fist.

7.63 x 39 mm Soviet is about twice as heavy as 5.56 x 45 mm NATO, it is 30% slower but can delivers more kinetic energy against target even with noticeable speed difference. The difference between humans are smaller than that.

Anyway, in comic, feats > actual facts, Superman throughout his career have shown that he can punch roughly the same magnitude as Flash and sometimes even harder. Not to mention Flash's IMP is Flash's maximum force, while many of the similar achievement have been done by Superman while he's holding back. Mr. Majestic have clearly and consistently shown to be faster than Superman in both combat and travel speed, and he does not hold back his fists like Superman does, but Captain Atom commented that Mr. Majestic's punch is not "Superman-strong."

#202 Posted by SlimJ87D (9389 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:
@kingmark14 said:

Flash might have a faster punch, but Supes has immense super strength along with the speed. Flash might send you flying with a headache, but Supes will send you flying HEADLESS. That's just my two cents

Come back after you read this.

http://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-training/boxing-workouts/why-lifting-weights-wont-increase-punching-power

However, I've watched documentary where they tested the punching strength of the strongmen (they're not martial artists) and when the force gauge reading come out, the documentary crews stated that they "punched harder than most heavy weight boxer." In human's experience, human can't build up as much punching speed to make significant difference compared to the mass of the fist.

7.63 x 39 mm Soviet is about twice as heavy as 5.56 x 45 mm NATO, it is 30% slower but can delivers more kinetic energy against target even with noticeable speed difference. The difference between humans are smaller than that.

Anyway, in comic, feats > actual facts, Superman throughout his career have shown that he can punch roughly the same magnitude as Flash and sometimes even harder. Not to mention Flash's IMP is Flash's maximum force, while many of the similar achievement have been done by Superman while he's holding back. Mr. Majestic have clearly and consistently shown to be faster than Superman in both combat and travel speed, and he does not hold back his fists like Superman does, but Captain Atom commented that Mr. Majestic's punch is not "Superman-strong."

That ammo analogy doesn't work well, there are a lot of factors that come into play with bullets.

How is the IMP the Flash maximum force when he has moved at speeds greater than light? All we know is that he knew a IMP would be enough to KO the white martian and he didn't need to do anymore than that. Unless I'm mistaken and on that panel it says that this is the maximum force he can deliver.

#203 Edited by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@angryhulks said:

@slimj87d said:
@kingmark14 said:

Flash might have a faster punch, but Supes has immense super strength along with the speed. Flash might send you flying with a headache, but Supes will send you flying HEADLESS. That's just my two cents

Come back after you read this.

http://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-training/boxing-workouts/why-lifting-weights-wont-increase-punching-power

However, I've watched documentary where they tested the punching strength of the strongmen (they're not martial artists) and when the force gauge reading come out, the documentary crews stated that they "punched harder than most heavy weight boxer." In human's experience, human can't build up as much punching speed to make significant difference compared to the mass of the fist.

7.63 x 39 mm Soviet is about twice as heavy as 5.56 x 45 mm NATO, it is 30% slower but can delivers more kinetic energy against target even with noticeable speed difference. The difference between humans are smaller than that.

Anyway, in comic, feats > actual facts, Superman throughout his career have shown that he can punch roughly the same magnitude as Flash and sometimes even harder. Not to mention Flash's IMP is Flash's maximum force, while many of the similar achievement have been done by Superman while he's holding back. Mr. Majestic have clearly and consistently shown to be faster than Superman in both combat and travel speed, and he does not hold back his fists like Superman does, but Captain Atom commented that Mr. Majestic's punch is not "Superman-strong."

That ammo analogy doesn't work well, there are a lot of factors that come into play with bullets.

How is the IMP the Flash maximum force when he has moved at speeds greater than light? All we know is that he knew a IMP would be enough to KO the white martian and he didn't need to do anymore than that. Unless I'm mistaken and on that panel it says that this is the maximum force he can deliver.

There are a lot of factors in ballistic, true, but the energy measured between those two infamous bullets are pretty much theoretical quantities. You can calculate for the bullet's ideal kinetic energy without advance instruments. And by the way, trying to calculate for the kinetic energy of a biological matter, which includes superhuman are much more complex than a bullet.

Flash does not delivers IMP at faster-than-light and he did make a reference about that, and Flash's safe speed limit is pretty much near-light speed anyway. A lot of Flash's "faster-than-light" feats are from author's mathematical overlook when really Flash didn't even go faster-than-light. When he goes faster-than-light, he will almost certainly get inducted into Speed Force or time traveled. I never see Flash attacking someone at above the speed of light, even when he's fighting Zoom.

And to be precise, the energy of a mass going faster-than-light is undefined and modern physics can't explain what happens at faster than speed of light. Don't pull out faster-than-light, even at light speed, the energy delivered would be infinite and that'll essentially make Flash a universe buster or at unrealistically, very least kill Zum outright, which he didn't. All current physical laws are rendered null and void at faster-than-light speed. Regardless, Superman always hold back even when he seemingly "bloodlusted," which prevents him from severely injured his opponent. Even then, he is capable of sending his opponents into the orbit more than once, and apparently could have killed Black Adam in one punch.

#204 Edited by SlimJ87D (9389 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks: there's actually a lot that affects bullets and how they transfer their energy to another object.

I'm not saying you can't calculate them but you can't calculate them as simple as you think you all kinds of things from shapes, material, the gun itself and how it handles the pressure, etc. There are a lot of variables.

The only two guns that come to mind immediately are the SCAR L and H model of are mechanically the same.

I just visited a world known gunsmith over the weekend.

I'd you're trying to pull the inconsistency card due to writers, I'm sure Superman has his fair share of things too. But sure, let's assume he caps out at light speed then, what does this change? Superman can't punch or fight as fast, a lot of his impressive feats are when he projectiles himself like a bullet into objects. Not really a punch.

The physics isn't null in void, that is up for debate. You're just making things overly complicated. Obviously newton's laws don't apply well the faster things go, that omits pretty much everything in kinematics and forces when it comes to light speeds but it doesn't because Flash is a large body of mass that can travel at light speeds and above. That omits special relativity there. So what is Flash? He's a person, with the help of the speed force, can apply Newtons laws at light speed. Again, he's a body of mass that can travel at light speeds and probably above that.

#205 Edited by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@angryhulks: there's actually a lot that affects bullets and how they transfer their energy to another object.

I'm not saying you can't calculate them but you can't calculate them as simple as you think you all kinds of things from shapes, material, the gun itself and how it handles the pressure, etc. There are a lot of variables.

The only two guns that come to mind immediately are the SCAR L and H model of are mechanically the same.

I just visited a world known gunsmith over the weekend.

I'd you're trying to pull the inconsistency card due to writers, I'm sure Superman has his fair share of things too.

The physics isn't null in void, that is up for debate. You're just making things overly complicated. Obviously newton's laws don't apply well the faster things go, that omits pretty much everything in kinematics and forces when it comes to light speeds but it doesn't because Flash is a large body of mass that can travel at light speeds and above. That omits special relativity there. So what is Flash? He's a person, with the help of the speed force, can apply Newtons laws at light speed. Again, he's a body of mass that can travel at light speeds and probably above that.

When you have to make a statistic about bullet, you want a theoretical yield, you don't want the data when it already struck an object due to complexity. Regardless, 7.62 mm Soviet's muzzle velocity is still greater than that of 5.56 mm's regardless of which gun you used, even with 18'' barrel, 5.56 mm still strike not as hard as 7.62 mm. As a hobby shooter myself, I'm no foreign to ballistic and I have played around the ballistic math a lot. You must disregard the integrity of the bullet when you calculate for kinetic energy at a certain distance, and you don't calculate the energy when it already hit the target because that would be too complicated and not as predictable. What I'm saying here is that right now, we don't need to considers how the bullet transfer energy because we the data of the bullet once it hit the target is irrelevant to the ballistic table.

Again, there're many things going on in human's fist than a bullet, which makes it even harder to calculate.

Yeah, show me a theory of what happens when a mass move faster than light speed, we already know that at light speed, the energy of the mass is already undefined, what can you do to find for faster-than-light? Physicists debated about this, and many of them actually couldn't care about this because it's well known among science community that for a mass to go even as fast as light is physically impossible.

I didn't trying to lowball Flash with his inconsistency, but it's clearly stated on the panel that Flash did not go beyond light speed for most of the time, and the authors, no matter who actually abide to that law unless they wants to pull out upper end feats. Superman have achieve impressive punching feats of similar magnitude even more often than Flash, and thus can be said that he's more consistent in this aspect.

Speed Force actually make physics less relevant, no different than Dr. Strange's magic, Flash already ignored the special relativity, one of the major aspect of science. So you couldn't said that Speed Force allows Newton laws to be used at light speed because they're no context in the panel that indicated that, and Flash never punch at light speed or above anyway, at best he only went 99.99 with more 9s percent of light speed because even the authors are not completely retarded in physics. Contextually, Flash rarely went at light speed anyway, he's mostly only zip close to it. And he never fought anyone at beyond light speed, he only do that when he need to time travel or simply get lost into the SF.

#206 Posted by SlimJ87D (9389 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks:

Look, discussing our belief in theories and debating about the physics of the comic probably ain't going to get us anywhere. So let's just cut it simple and short.

It's already established in the DC that super speed has a lot to do with the power behind a punch.

There's two things that quickly proves Flash punches with a greater force than Superman. Flash is faster than Superman and one shots a White Martian whom is as durable as Superman due to his speed and Diana talks about how Zoom hitting her at great speeds hurts more than Superman's punches. All this obviously proves that thanks to speed in the DC Universe, one can hit with greater force than someone who can lifts hundreds of tons and one could easily one shot and knock that person out with ease.

#207 Edited by catofellow (256 posts) - - Show Bio

Why do people use physics in arguments over characters who defy the laws of physics? Just a rhetorical question.

Physics is like a Sudoku puzzle. Once one assumption is proved incorrect, everything else will unravel.

But to play along, has anyone thought through the mechanics of a punch? What if Flash's punch has rapid deceleration after the moment of impact, but Superman's punch continues accelerating after impact while maintaining contact with target for a longer period of time (i.e. flash's punch recoils, superman follows through)? No reason to say that would happen, just a what if.

Edit: for this argument, guns and punches are not analogues. Your fist has your arm, and upper body to drive the punch forward. A bullet has only the initial shock which drives it forward. Its like comparing a car driving 80 mph, vs. a car coasting 80 mph in neutral. Assuming the engine is not destroyed at impact (which admittedly is very likely), the first would do more damage.

#208 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@angryhulks:

Look, discussing our belief in theories and debating about the physics of the comic probably ain't going to get us anywhere. So let's just cut it simple and short.

It's already established in the DC that super speed has a lot to do with the power behind a punch.

There's two things that quickly proves Flash punches with a greater force than Superman. Flash is faster than Superman and one shots a White Martian whom is as durable as Superman due to his speed and Diana talks about how Zoom hitting her at great speeds hurts more than Superman's punches. All this obviously proves that thanks to speed in the DC Universe, one can hit with greater force than someone who can lifts hundreds of tons and one could easily one shot and knock that person out with ease.

You can't use Zoom's feats for Wally's, mainly because Zoom is in relative, far faster than Wally. Even Wally is hopeless to even see even a slight hint of his movements. And Superman's punches are generally less focuses and often consistently causes earthquakes across the land even when he landed direct punch on his opponent, and getting worst as he exerts more, that's why he don't give all he got against his opponent. And I can guaranteed you that he didn't give it all even when he fought Doomsday, because he have to keep balance between collateral damage and punching power. Wally got Speed Force to isolate his action from the environment and Superman don't have that.

Also, Diana is trying to quantify Zoom's attacks with tactile sense, not systematically, which make it more believable as an exaggeration. During the battle with Superman, Diana is battered after few punches from Superman and Zoom probably delivers thousands in between panels already and her condition is still better than when she fought Superman.

Oh, and Superman once delivered a punch from space that sent Diana pummeled into the Earth, created large crater and that knocked her out cold, which is no different than when Flash punched Zum, and the crater is even larger and he also did it in one punch. Superman didn't even accelerate his entire body to achieve that. There are more feats that hinted that Superman can delivers a punch with similar or greater magnitude than Wally's, which I can show you but not now. Again, regardless of how physics worked in real life, feats still overwhelm facts when we put comics into debate.

And the logic that a guy who can lift trillions of tons always delivers weaker punch than a guy who can move at super speed is not always applicable. Regardless, I still stand by a point that Superman displayed more feats than Flash in this department, and Flash's only 1 or 2 feats of IMP ain't going to cut it.

#209 Posted by silkyballfro94 (1565 posts) - - Show Bio

May or may not be a stupid question, but would Flash's arm/shoulder break if he is punching with so much force?

#210 Posted by spiderbuck (2449 posts) - - Show Bio

May or may not be a stupid question, but would Flash's arm/shoulder break if he is punching with so much force?

He's protected by the speed force.


As to the thread, Superman hits harder based on feats and that's what counts.

#211 Edited by SlimJ87D (9389 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks: so it's all about quantity and what is written doesn't count?

Say what you want. Diana says a light speed punch hurts more than what Superman delivers, we all know Flash can deliver something close to that magnitude, this fact, it's not even a theory, will always contradict your argument.

#212 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio
@slimj87d said:

@angryhulks: so it's all about quantity and what is written doesn't count?

Say what you want. Diana says a light speed punch hurts more than what Superman delivers, we all know Flash can deliver something close to that magnitude, this fact, it's not even a theory, will always contradict your argument.

Again, the biggest problem here is that you're using Zoom's feat for Wally. How many times I have to say that Zoom is far faster than Wally, who is already near light speed? Zoom hits harder than Flash, and we see that Wonder Woman can take it, so it probable that Flash hit not as hard as Superman. Unless Diana said that Flash hits harder than Superman, the argument that Zoom = Flash will still be invalid.

#213 Edited by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

#214 Posted by SlimJ87D (9389 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't understand what showing me a image of Superman punching Wonder Woman near the sun is supposed to prove, where the sun is the source of his power and the higher concentration of luminous from it's rays would have amplified him to who knows what levels. Unless if the OP is going to allow Superman to get near the sun and get a strength boost from it.

#215 Posted by SlimJ87D (9389 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@angryhulks: so it's all about quantity and what is written doesn't count?

Say what you want. Diana says a light speed punch hurts more than what Superman delivers, we all know Flash can deliver something close to that magnitude, this fact, it's not even a theory, will always contradict your argument.

Again, the biggest problem here is that you're using Zoom's feat for Wally. How many times I have to say that Zoom is far faster than Wally, who is already near light speed? Zoom hits harder than Flash, and we see that Wonder Woman can take it, so it probable that Flash hit not as hard as Superman. Unless Diana said that Flash hits harder than Superman, the argument that Zoom = Flash will still be invalid.

You're interpreting it in a fashion that only supports your argument. Diana says "I've been punched by Superman before. This hurts more than that. Being punched at the speed of light will do that."

If it said that "Being punched by Zoom would do that," then your argument would hold up but it doesn't. It states that a punch at the speed of light hurts more than a punch than Superman. Simple.

#216 Edited by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

I don't understand what showing me a image of Superman punching Wonder Woman near the sun is supposed to prove, where the sun is the source of his power and the higher concentration of luminous from it's rays would have amplified him to who knows what levels. Unless if the OP is going to allow Superman to get near the sun and get a strength boost from it.

Still, I don't think few moments near the Sun is going to have significant impact on his speed. All Superman writers follow the rule that Superman should be sub-light speed regardless of situation. Not to mention Diani have Kryptonite here, so it may negate any benefit Superman may have from the Sun.

I have other scan, and we know that John Byrne's Superman is one of the weakest portrayal of Superman. Yep, and Superman said he simply wants to get Lobo away from Earth, not to actually hurt or kill him.

#217 Posted by SlimJ87D (9389 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks: I respect your opinion and I understand your reasoning behind it. I simply don't agree with it because there will always be this that contradicts it.

#218 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

And still, another possible contradiction. We know that Mr. Majestic can move and react in just the time it takes for a light particle to move across your living room.

And yet... Of course, Mr. Majestic hold back less than Superman.

#219 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: I also have more contradictions up my sleeve (or my image gallery). I'll take a short rest now.

#220 Posted by kingmark14 (768 posts) - - Show Bio

Can flash's punch knock a crater into the earth? Because Superman can.

#221 Posted by kingmark14 (768 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks: why are superman and Diana fighting in that issue anyway?

#224 Posted by Pipxeroth (500 posts) - - Show Bio

Hulk

- Pip

#226 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: Ok, I forgot about this thread for quite a time. There're some contradiction here, Zoom's light speed kicks fails to KO Wonder Woman. We all see that Flash's one punch can knock Zum out, but why Wonder Woman still keep on tanking it and eventually get a hold of Zoom? That means Flash and Zoom's magnitude of their punching force is not the same even at same velocity, right?

#227 Edited by NoBody134 (282 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash once used an IMP on White Martian... he survived. Superman once use an IMP on a Shadowmoon... Nothing left but little pieces of rock. I guess Superman hits harder but Flash can potentially hit harder than Sups if we go for pure physics.

#228 Posted by Spartan101 (2290 posts) - - Show Bio

if supes really really wants to hit harder,,he will..supes in bad ass mode hits pretty much as hard or harder than anyone. He broke doomsdays neck,flash I doubt could of stopped doomsday with one hit.

#229 Posted by SlimJ87D (9389 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: Ok, I forgot about this thread for quite a time. There're some contradiction here, Zoom's light speed kicks fails to KO Wonder Woman. We all see that Flash's one punch can knock Zum out, but why Wonder Woman still keep on tanking it and eventually get a hold of Zoom? That means Flash and Zoom's magnitude of their punching force is not the same even at same velocity, right?

When Zoom was fighting Wonder Woman, I don't even think he was using his powers to his full extent. He was just toying with her. Wonder Woman was also blindfolded, I doubt she even knew what was going on. The only thing her senses could feel at that moment was pain. To her, all she felt were some painful strikes, but since she's not nearly as fast as Zoom or Flash is, how could she perceive how fast zoom was actually hitting her? He could hit her at ANY speed that she can't see and it would all look the same to her.

The only fact of knowledge gained from the whole thing is that speed and acceleration do attribute to the power in a punch, quite obviously. The faster you are, the more power will be behind your punch.

#230 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio
@slimj87d said:

@angryhulks said:

@slimj87d: Ok, I forgot about this thread for quite a time. There're some contradiction here, Zoom's light speed kicks fails to KO Wonder Woman. We all see that Flash's one punch can knock Zum out, but why Wonder Woman still keep on tanking it and eventually get a hold of Zoom? That means Flash and Zoom's magnitude of their punching force is not the same even at same velocity, right?

When Zoom was fighting Wonder Woman, I don't even think he was using his powers to his full extent. He was just toying with her. Wonder Woman was also blindfolded, I doubt she even knew what was going on. The only thing her senses could feel at that moment was pain. To her, all she felt were some painful strikes, but since she's not nearly as fast as Zoom or Flash is, how could she perceive how fast zoom was actually hitting her? He could hit her at ANY speed that she can't see and it would all look the same to her.

The only fact of knowledge gained from the whole thing is that speed and acceleration do attribute to the power in a punch, quite obviously. The faster you are, the more power will be behind your punch.

By pain, maybe?

#231 Posted by SlimJ87D (9389 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks: Possibly. I mean the effect is similar to when Flash punched the White Martian. Wonder Woman is getting knocked around the world. But the rest of these fine details have factors we have no control over. Different writers, different artist and even the might Plot Armor which protects her heroes near the end of story arcs.

#232 Posted by Zhege (91 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks: Blindfolded WW knew that speed was the factor in which the pain was caused, how can she and not you see that? As for speed we have Zoom > Wally > Superman. You're acknowledging (I believe) that Zoom hits harder but it can't be attributed to Wally since Zoom is faster. Wally is still faster than Superman and the same connection can still be made that Wally's faster punch would hit harder since it is faster.

#233 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@zhege said:

@angryhulks: Blindfolded WW knew that speed was the factor in which the pain was caused, how can she and not you see that? As for speed we have Zoom > Wally > Superman. You're acknowledging (I believe) that Zoom hits harder but it can't be attributed to Wally since Zoom is faster. Wally is still faster than Superman and the same connection can still be made that Wally's faster punch would hit harder since it is faster.

Still, neither Zoom or Wally had shattered planets in one punch, post-crisis Superman did it at least three times if I remember correctly.

And Kingdom Come Superman during his visit on New Earth, he is stated by Jay Garrick to be "as fast as Wally," yet he can't take down Gog, but Citizen Steel can. And did Citizen Steel happens to be among the "fast" character? He easily knock down Gog with nothing but fists, something the entire JSA can't achieve. That's another contradiction I can think of beside Mr. Majestic's speed and why he still couldn't punch as hard as Superman.

Not to mention that Superman hold back significantly, as mentioned after he almost punch Black Adam with a force to "split a Moon in half." He also KOed Captain Marvel in few punches. In one fight, he even caused earthquake that can be felt from faraway city. Shatter the entire island by punching someone into it with ease. And he's only few beside Doomsday who can tear through Imperiex's probes, even one of them is capable of defeating the JLAs, including Flash.

Flash can go FTL, but when he need to deliver Infinity Mass Punch, he have to slow down to just about the edge of light speed since physics forbidden that from happening. That's pretty much Flash going all-out with his blow, he can't punch any harder than what he have shown against Zum, while Superman could replicate similar feat even while holding back.

#234 Posted by Moonman78 (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see why this thread still exists, there is no way in hell flash hits anywhere close to superman. Superman can shatter a mountain with his punches, flash would break his wrists

#235 Posted by Batman242 (4860 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see why this thread still exists, there is no way in hell flash hits anywhere close to superman. Superman can shatter a mountain with his punches, flash would break his wrists

Wonder Woman said Zoom hits harder than Superman. The only reason Zoom could do that is by speed, and we all know Flash and Zoom are tons faster than Superman is. There are lots of cases where Flash's wrists and fists 'would' have broken by what you're saying, but they haven't. Flash is protected by an aura, that won't allow such things to happen.

#236 Posted by Zhege (91 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks: Flash's enemies don't require planet busting feats to defeat, that's why on-panel there aren't many. You don't think Flash could turn every Rogues' head into a red mist? Any enemy that requires more than brute force is beyond Superman's capability, it's a reason they pin him against Batman. Of course he'll have strength feats galore.

Considering Flash can go FTL and doesn't do it frequently shows that he also is holding back. Multiplying Superman's feats by an unknown amount can also be applied to Flash, only that that unknown amount is the speed of light.

There is also zero reason by Superman's feats aside from the yellow sun. A little unfair to try to use reason against one and not laser eye, cold breath, flying, big boy blue, eh?

#237 Posted by rcranium (85 posts) - - Show Bio

@dratini1331: It doesn't matter twice as much. It's velocity squared which is far greater than 2 x velocity.

#238 Posted by Dratini1331 (7011 posts) - - Show Bio

@rcranium: V * V = V^2, yes? Ke = 1/2(m)(v^2). In that specific equation, Velocity maters twice as much as mass, as it's in a ratio of 2:1.

#239 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@zhege said:

@angryhulks: Flash's enemies don't require planet busting feats to defeat, that's why on-panel there aren't many. You don't think Flash could turn every Rogues' head into a red mist? Any enemy that requires more than brute force is beyond Superman's capability, it's a reason they pin him against Batman. Of course he'll have strength feats galore.

Considering Flash can go FTL and doesn't do it frequently shows that he also is holding back. Multiplying Superman's feats by an unknown amount can also be applied to Flash, only that that unknown amount is the speed of light.

There is also zero reason by Superman's feats aside from the yellow sun. A little unfair to try to use reason against one and not laser eye, cold breath, flying, big boy blue, eh?

Most of the Rogues has normal human's durability, even someone with peak human's strength can kill them in one punch if needed.

Flash always slow down to just the edge of light speed because the author don't want to violate any more physics, anyway, that's Flash's only punch that can hurt someone with Superman's durability, he can't get anymore than this because he's already at his speed limit. He can go FTL, but most of the time he'll fall into Speed Force or other dimension, and every time he delivers IMP, it can only achieve by going at near-light speed. Superman can also travel faster than light, but when he busted the Moon replica, the narrator said he "slowed down to just under light speed" because the author don't know what happens to the mass once it went beyond light speed.

Flash did not hold back when he punch Zum, the White Martian is among the Flash's most powerful opponent, unlike the Rogues who is basically human with advance technology and plot armor.

#240 Posted by giantsfan576 (1071 posts) - - Show Bio

@dratini1331: HAHA velocity squared would mean velocity (lets say 10 for example) times itself. 10 times 10 is 100. 2 times velocity would be 2 times velocity (lets say 10 for example) 10 times 2 is 20. That's a big difference and no in both cases the ratio is not 2:1

#241 Posted by Cable_Extreme (8739 posts) - - Show Bio

Who hits harder depends on many factors. Like is it standing still and punching or running and punching? Or is it simply who can hit harder under any circumstance. A sun bathed Superman flying as fast as he can towards a planet then punching would probably be more devastating than Flash's punch.

#242 Edited by Dratini1331 (7011 posts) - - Show Bio

@giantsfan576: -.- In this equation, Ke = .5(m)(v^2), there are 2 variables for velocity. There is 1 variable for mass. This means that in the equation for kinetic energy, velocity will be twice as important as mass.

To put this into perspective, set v = 5, and m =10. Ke = .5(10)(5*5). Ke = .5(10)(25) = 125. Velocity is the dictating factor of Kinetic energy. The ratio of Velocity to Mass in terms of importance is 2:1. This has nothing to do with any part of squaring or multiplying, it has to do with the number of times a variable appears in the equation for Kinetic energy, and the ratio between those variables.

#243 Edited by giantsfan576 (1071 posts) - - Show Bio

@dratini1331: I know what velocity and mass is. Your last comment was worded as if you were saying twice as much and squared is the same thing

#244 Posted by Dratini1331 (7011 posts) - - Show Bio
#245 Edited by Zhege (91 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks: Just because whoever writes Superman breaks physics even more than those who write Flash, doesn't make Superman better. Holding 'em to the same standards Flash's speed will bring him in first place.

#246 Edited by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@zhege said:

@angryhulks: Just because whoever writes Superman breaks physics even more than those who write Flash, doesn't make Superman better. Holding 'em to the same standards Flash's speed will bring him in first place.

Most of the writers that write Superman also write Flash, and vice versa. Pretty much most of the Flash's powers are stemmed from Speed Force, something that is used to simply tell physicists to "f**k off." That's breaking physical laws also.

Regardless, Superman displayed that he can shatter planets with a single blow, and have knocked out someone as durable as him before with only one or few punches.

Flash can't even scratch some of Superman's opponents, such as Imperiex Probes etc. Superman destroyed those by a simple punch.

#247 Posted by Zhege (91 posts) - - Show Bio

@zhege said:

@angryhulks: Just because whoever writes Superman breaks physics even more than those who write Flash, doesn't make Superman better. Holding 'em to the same standards Flash's speed will bring him in first place.

Most of the writers that write Superman also write Flash, and vice versa. Pretty much most of the Flash's powers are stemmed from Speed Force, something that is used to simply tell physicists to "f**k off." That's breaking physical laws also.

Regardless, Superman displayed that he can shatter planets with a single blow, and have knocked out someone as durable as him before with only one or few punches.

Flash can't even scratch some of Superman's opponents, such as Imperiex Probes etc. Superman destroyed those by a simple punch.

  • Speed Force explains how the Flash gets away with how he may accelerate his molecules, withstand heat, and air resistance at high velocities. As to where Superman can willy-nilly do as he pleases. By far I'd say Superman takes a dump on physical laws and reason.
  • Superman has never displayed on-panel that he can shatter a planet. Prove a scan to show one scattering. And whether or not there is, this does not disprove that Flash can't do it. Flash has every potential to go fisting around any Superman fisting feat and will have it done with a Flash Fact rather than "He's just not holding back anymore".
  • Some Rogues (with human durability and some at peak strength as you've pointed out) pose a threat to the entire Justice League. Let's also not forget that Wally progressively got better. End-game Wally, which is the Wally we should be taking into consideration, should be able to accomplish everything you're boasting about that you've said he can't do. Your only logical reasoning is because of inconsistencies? Something everyone has? Yet because "Superman holds back" all of his are excused? Way too many double standards.
#248 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (4696 posts) - - Show Bio

Supe's easy.

#250 Posted by Zhege (91 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, NOW I got my real answer. Their mass are close to the same, so we'll say their masses are equel. Superman is much stronger, meaning he has far greater durability, meaning he has far harder and thicker fists, meaning he packs a more solid punch than Flash. Flash has the advantage in speed, so I think they can hit equelly hard.

Their masses are approximately the same, but Superman does have an edge on him there. Superman's durability doesn't play a role into this since the Speed Force creates a barrier around Flash that allows him to have such a durability. As long as neither fist explode, durability won't play a role. If by a "thicker" fist you also include that thicker means bigger, that's actually a con. Since the damage will disperse throughout the larger fist.