#101 Posted by Saren (25055 posts) - - Show Bio

@bossmonster: Dredeuced was making a joke about a recent scene in JL #22 where Shazam gleefully celebrates being able to knock down Superman. Aside from that, the version of Flash you're thinking of is pre-Flashpoint Wally, but even so, that feat was retconned in Robinson's JLA run into being performed in a minute rather than less than a second.

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#102 Posted by Bossmonster (2377 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: Wow. Part of my soul just died. Any chance you have the updated Scan?

#103 Edited by Saren (25055 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: Wow. Part of my soul just died. Any chance you have the updated Scan?

I misremembered it, it actually said "a few seconds" rather than "a minute". Still, substantial difference from the "0.00001" seconds or whatever the original scan from Trial by Fire stated it to be.

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#104 Edited by Bossmonster (2377 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: Here is a question? If the population was the same and the distances traveled there and back was the same. Doesn't still put it faster than light on a large scale?

Also, are you sure this counts as a recant? I ask that because, It's probably impossible for anyone other than Wally to know how fast he got it down. To anyone news writer he would have done it in "a few seconds"

How is this just not the character talking?

#105 Posted by Saren (25055 posts) - - Show Bio

@bossmonster: Likely, but I haven't bothered with any calculations.

I counted it as a retcon because it does contradict the previous figure, which was the source of much debate owing to the difficulty in reconciling Joe Kelly's narration with the logistics of Wally's feat. But your objection has validity.

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#106 Posted by Bossmonster (2377 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: If it does, it does.

I personally have a different perspective on it. That's for the scan though. I'll know it going forward for future debates.

#107 Posted by THEOCITYLEGEND (1308 posts) - - Show Bio

Omg I really hate this whole run at the speed of light crap. Scientifically, nothing in comic books makes any sense at all, not even close. You are just supposed to put it in the back of your mind and just accept these people can do crazy sh!t. The speed of light thing kinda bugs me though because it just completely ignores a well known scientific fact that nothing with mass can travel at light speed. Can we just say the dude is fast? I mean do we have to say he's at light speed? To me it just sounds ridicules and silly.

#108 Posted by Bruticus112 (110 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: I read your post. You put some really good reasons why strong characters and fast characters hit hard. Also, I heard that a punch from Abomination (who can lift 200 tons) is just as powerful as 500 pounds of TNT. That is incredibly powerful, but since Flash can punch with the same amount of power as a white dwarf star, he can definitly punch harder than even the Abomination. So as you mentioned in your post, super fast characters can hit as hard or harder than super strong characters, depending on how fast they are.

#109 Posted by ZombieMowlcher (689 posts) - - Show Bio

Wally West, the fastest Flash, hits harder and faster than Superman.

#110 Edited by SlimJ87D (10695 posts) - - Show Bio

@bossmonster said:

@citizenbane: Wow. Part of my soul just died. Any chance you have the updated Scan?

I misremembered it, it actually said "a few seconds" rather than "a minute". Still, substantial difference from the "0.00001" seconds or whatever the original scan from Trial by Fire stated it to be.

I don't know if that counts as a retcon. It looks more like a mistranslation to me. As in the story went from one person to another and to another. The other scan shows Wally's narrative of what happened and I think that counts more than her recollection of reading a fact somewhere. Just adding my two cents.

#111 Edited by WillPayton (9815 posts) - - Show Bio

For those talking about physics... give it up. Flash uses the Speed Force which is basically magic. Even if we knew the exact properties of it, which we dont, comic physics is whatever the writer wants it to be.

I'm going with the guy who can do this:

#112 Edited by Freefa11 (2423 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: It was actually 0.00001 microseconds, which requires a really ludicrous velocity.

One thing that often gets overlooked though, is that the page is self-contradictory. It gives a time interval and a distance, which lets us figure out the velocity for ourselves, which is some ridiculously high multiple of c (like a trillion or more). However, it also explicitly states that Wally was moving slightly slower than lightspeed at the time. So, author's random numbers vs author's direct statement, which do we pick? Well, aside from the absurdity of the speed required by said number, it was kind of arbitrary, but now at least there looks to be some degree of in-universe indication that Wally is not meant to be that fast.

#113 Edited by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@freefa11: Or maybe the c constant in DC comics is vastly greater than our universe's.

#114 Edited by Bossmonster (2377 posts) - - Show Bio

@freefa11: I'm going to disagree with you on this and I'll use the scan to support my argument on this.

Look at the scan itself. In the first panel, the bomb has exploded. In out physic's, at this point the shockwave would have already killed people. The very next panel, we haven't even gotten full mushroom cloud and we see people start to manifest in this field.

More sources I check say that the blast shockwave can be felt a fraction of a second after the Blast. If we take that into account, those people ground zero should have been dust. However, The Flash saves them all. Against the shockwave and the fact that the Bomb already went off before he started running, he saved all the people.

While it's clear that the scan contradicts itself, based of what's actually taking place, it is more likely that the Author grossly over estimated what the speed of light is and underestimated how fast The Flash would have to be to do what he did.

For him to be connected with the speed force, I don't see why he couldn't be this fast.


#115 Edited by Saren (25055 posts) - - Show Bio

@freefa11: Or maybe the c constant in DC comics is vastly greater than our universe's.

Nah, there's an issue of Superman where Clark races Wally and the speed of light is stated to be 3 x 10^8 m/s.

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#116 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@freefa11:

I'm going to disagree with you on this and I'll use the scan to support my argument on this.

Look at the scan itself. In the first panel, the bomb has exploded. In out physic's, at this point the shockwave would have already killed people. The very next panel, we haven't even gotten full mushroom cloud and we see people start to manifest in this field.

More sources I check say that the blast shockwave can be felt a fraction of a second after the Blast. If we take that into account, those people ground zero should have been dust. However, The Flash saves them all. Against the shockwave and the fact that the Bomb already went off before he started running, he saved all the people.

While it's clear that the scan contradicts itself, based of what's actually taking place, it is more likely that the Author grossly over estimated what the speed of light is and underestimated how fast The Flash would have to be to do what he did.

For him to be connected with the speed force, I don't see why he couldn't be this fast.

The shock wave travel only a fraction of the speed of light. The shock wave is not the first thing in the nuclear explosion that kills people, it's probably the last thing that is.

What kill living things first when nuclear bomb explode is the deadly amount of heat and radiation, which travel at light speed. People will be vaporized in nanoseconds to microseconds.

If a nuclear bomb explode at 100 meters above the ground (and above a guy), that guy have only 30.3 nanoseconds left of his life before the first wave of radiation reached him. Flash saved hundred thousands of them in 0.01 nanosecond (10 picoseconds). So he is trillions of times faster than light.

Maybe the author didn't make the calculation or simply assume no readers will be bother verifying it.

#117 Posted by Bossmonster (2377 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks: Were did you get your source numbers? Can you link me?

Also, I did not know that about the heat. However, what you're saying supports my augment I believe. If Flash starting after the Bomb, he would have to be as fast as what is written to have saved all those people. It's just the author has some crazy idea on the speed of light and exactly how fast it is.

Thanks for the info.

#118 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks:

Were did you get your source numbers? Can you link me?

Also, I did not know that about the heat. However, what you're saying supports my augment I believe. If Flash starting after the Bomb, he would have to be as fast as what is written to have saved all those people. It's just the author has some crazy idea on the speed of light and exactly how fast it is.

Thanks for the info.

I got the variables from my physics text book, it take about 3.3 nanoseconds for a photon to move through 1 meter in vacuum.

The rest I calculated myself with simple math.

Yep, I'm trying to support your argument, and to correct you about the shock wave.

#119 Posted by Bruticus112 (110 posts) - - Show Bio

@ferventking: It is actially possible to punch hard without having to accelerate your punch to fast. And that is basically by pushing your punch. A really strong person who pushes his punches should usually hit really hard, and since a lot of strong characters are so aggresive they mostly use push punches, so to see how hard a strong character can punch you just need to find out how much weight he can press.

I got this information from http://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-training/boxing-workouts/why-lifting-weights-wont-increase-punching-power

Read the end of the article.

"The reason why some people punch harder with weights is because their technique sucks. If you don’t know how to use your body weight, then sure…doing things like strengthening your muscles and trying to push your fist through your opponent might help. Telling me you need weights to punch harder is like saying you need a swim suit to swim fast. I don’t dispute that weights MIGHT make me punch harder…but the truth is, I already punch damn hard just as it is right now."

#120 Posted by ferventking (259 posts) - - Show Bio

@bruticus112:

Because energy is mass(velocity)^2. The article cites body weight as important because in regular humans speed doesn't vary by that great a factor. A featherweight isn't punching fast enough to compensate for the difference in body weight, thus his punches are weaker than that of a heavy weight. In this case however, Flash is punching hundreds of times faster and that would more than compensate.

#121 Edited by XLR87T3 (3019 posts) - - Show Bio

@limpoyzloan said:

White Dwarf Star Punch >>>> Planetary Punch

True.The Speed-Force allows flash to ignore the laws of physics. He can even win a arm wrestling contest with World Breaker Hulk because of his speed.

#122 Edited by green_skaar (4716 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3 said:

@limpoyzloan said:

White Dwarf Star Punch >>>> Planetary Punch

True.The Speed-Force allows flash to ignore the laws of physics. He can even win a arm wrestling contest with World Breaker Hulk because of his speed.

Flash fans are so delusional. It's no wonder CV has such a bad reputation when it comes to Flash.

#123 Posted by Deadpoolwins23 (32 posts) - - Show Bio

technically at a certain speed, flash would become an infinite mass, and thus when he finally hits something it would be stronger than superman. this is know as the infinite mass punch(shockingly original name i know). just because he doesn't do it does not mean that flash cannot do it.

#124 Edited by XLR87T3 (3019 posts) - - Show Bio
#125 Posted by green_skaar (4716 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3 said:

@green_skaar: LOL I was being sarcastic when I said that, because people were actually saying Flash could do just that in the thread: Can the Flash out quick Hulk in arm-wrestling?

Just asinine, really, but incredibly funny! :)

(^^You can click on the link for the thread, underlined^^)

My faith in humanity has been restored!

#126 Posted by houseshm (434 posts) - - Show Bio

Since flash can go faster than superman in speed. Doesnt that mean his infinite mass punch will hit harder? Can someone do the math for infinite mass punch to figure out how many megatons of force it hits with?

#127 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (4029 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash. It's been explained plenty of times.

#128 Edited by jojjimbo (2463 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash.

#129 Posted by rcranium (99 posts) - - Show Bio

At infinite velocity, mass is a nonfactor.

Infinity x 1 = infinity x billion.

#130 Posted by hardcorefakes (691 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash. It's been explained plenty of times.

No it hasn't. In fact, it's been explained why Superman hits harder. But you Flash fanboys don't listen to logic.

#131 Posted by hardcorefakes (691 posts) - - Show Bio

For those talking about physics... give it up. Flash uses the Speed Force which is basically magic. Even if we knew the exact properties of it, which we dont, comic physics is whatever the writer wants it to be.

I'm going with the guy who can do this:

I think I'm going to go with the guy who can do this.

Let the tears flow.

#132 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (4029 posts) - - Show Bio

@hardcorefakes: no, you morons just can't read or understand simple physics.

#133 Posted by hardcorefakes (691 posts) - - Show Bio

@hardcorefakes: no, you morons just can't read or understand simple physics.

No, you fanboys are the ones who don't know physics. If you did, you would know Flash can't bust a planet. You would know that an IMP from Flash is weaker than an IMP from Supes. But continue to ignore logic and reason. I know you will.

#134 Edited by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@houseshm said:

Since flash can go faster than superman in speed. Doesnt that mean his infinite mass punch will hit harder? Can someone do the math for infinite mass punch to figure out how many megatons of force it hits with?

It has been contradicted numerous times by feats that Superman had punched with the same magnitude as Flash, and he show it more often than Flash.

Infinite mass means that the energy from the punch would be infinite as well, which is infinitely more energy than the entire universe. If Flash really delivers truly infinite mass of punch, then Flash will be a casual universe buster but it's far from the truth. And there're absolutely no way anyone or Zum is going to survive that punch, but they did.

And Flash may not punch at exactly the speed of light because that'll make him infinitely heavy and he'll causes big crunch that'll destroy the universe, I think he's just delivering that punch just below the speed of light, maybe 99.99999% the speed of light. How many megatons of energy? Something the mass of a man's fist (300 g) going at near-light speed is going to hit with the energy of 6.4 megatons of TNT, which is 60% the power of Ivy Mike, the first hydrogen bomb.

Also E = mc^2 and any Newtonian mechanics are inapplicable if something is going faster-than-light. In other words, physicists are still unsure what happens to the mass at faster-than-light speed.

#135 Edited by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio
#136 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (4029 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks: Dredeuced and Zoom have answered this numerous times. Superman a stronger but that has nothing to do with hitting harder in the big picture. But I do appreciate your post as it does prove a good point! I respect your argument.

@hardcorefakes: you're saying ignore physics for... Logic? Smh

#137 Edited by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01 said:

@angryhulks: Dredeuced and Zoom have answered this numerous times. Superman a stronger but that has nothing to do with hitting harder in the big picture. But I do appreciate your post as it does prove a good point! I respect your argument.

@hardcorefakes: you're saying ignore physics for... Logic? Smh

When Flash punched Zum to outer space and landed on the African plain, here are the Superman feats comparable to Flash's IMP.

1. Punched Wonder Woman from the Sun to Earth, create even larger crater, knocking out Wonder Woman in process.

2. Punched Lobo to outer orbit, went right through an alien spaceship and keep on going.

3. Punched Black Racer, who redirect Superman's punching force all over the surface of the Moon, carving canyon on 1/3 of the Moon surface in process.

Some of Superman's punches actually surpassed Flash's.

#138 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (4029 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks: Wally punched the Spectre so hard it would knock a planet off its axis. He admits time and time again he holds back for the physics alone. Supes hit Doomsday (iirc) into orbit with all his force. SA superman is going to have ridiculous feats anyway but Flash should technically hit harder, can we agree on that?

#139 Edited by houseshm (434 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks: Nice post, however, isnt the IMP supposed to hit with the force of "a white dwarf star" which would be about 10 octillion megatons? How did you get 6.4 megatons only?

#140 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks: Wally punched the Spectre so hard it would knock a planet off its axis. He admits time and time again he holds back for the physics alone. Supes hit Doomsday (iirc) into orbit with all his force. SA superman is going to have ridiculous feats anyway but Flash should technically hit harder, can we agree on that?

What I just gave is not SA Superman, but anyway.

Flash abuses physics consistently with the concept of Speed Force.

I know that Flash punched Spectre that hard, but is that hard? It is only a claim or narration but not what it actually happens? Because oddly, Superman also made a claim as well that he can punch so hard that he can bisect a small planet in half.

Well, even Flash slow down to near-light speed to deliver a punch because even writers understand that there are absolute no way we know what happens to the mass at faster-than-light speed. And Flash never delivers IMP at exact speed of light or above, so the limit for realism's sake, both Superman and Flash can only deliver the punch at sub-light speed.

#141 Edited by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@houseshm said:

@angryhulks: Nice post, however, isnt the IMP supposed to hit with the force of "a white dwarf star" which would be about 10 octillion megatons? How did you get 6.4 megatons only?

Well, it doesn't make sense about the force of "a white dwarf star." It truly doesn't, and it's language error. Maybe an impact onto the white dwarf star's surface? That'll make more sense.

I used E = mc^2 for 6.4 megatons, the maximum theoretical energy yielded from something the mass of a man's fist.

We can't use this equation once Flash went faster than light, everything become even more unpredictable and modern physicists are still arguing over this.

#142 Edited by Supermanwithatan01 (4029 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks: yeah it was in the narration, saying his punches would knock a planet off its axis, how is the Spectre still standing. But I agree with your post.

#143 Posted by houseshm (434 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks: yet superman was able to destroy a planet by going just under light speed using the IMP. I dont think he could do that if his punch just had the force of 6.4 megatons.

#144 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@houseshm said:

@angryhulks: yet superman was able to destroy a planet by going just under light speed using the IMP. I dont think he could do that if his punch just had the force of 6.4 megatons.

Superman is about 100 kg, the narration clearly said that he's going just under light speed when he's destroying replica of the Moon.

Since he's going at near-light speed, we can use E = mc^2, his body can yield as much as 2100 megatons of TNT, which is half a time as powerful as total nuclear arsenal during the height of Cold War. It is only enough to destroy country the size of UK, but trillions of times short the needs to destroy Moon-sized planet.

This is something the writer often overlook, Flash for most of the time is slower-than-light, yet the writer unknowingly make him trillion of times faster while still saying that Flash didn't go faster than light during that time, something like that.

#145 Posted by Mortein (3297 posts) - - Show Bio

When written properly, Flash should punch harder, but that rarely happens, so I'll say Supes punches harder.

#146 Posted by houseshm (434 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks: so is that feat PIS or inconsistent? Since he did destroy the moon. However, according to you Superman could only destroy a country the size of UK with his IMP.

#147 Posted by hardcorefakes (691 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks: Dredeuced and Zoom have answered this numerous times. Superman a stronger but that has nothing to do with hitting harder in the big picture. But I do appreciate your post as it does prove a good point! I respect your argument.

@hardcorefakes: you're saying ignore physics for... Logic? Smh

Dredeuced? Zoom? They are both fanboys with no credibility. Why should we care what they think, when they already wank speedsters hard?

Ignore? What? What the hell are you talking about? Both physics and logic dictate that Superman hits harder, no matter how hard you pout.

#148 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@houseshm said:

@angryhulks: so is that feat PIS or inconsistent? Since he did destroy the moon. However, according to you Superman could only destroy a country the size of UK with his IMP.

It's not both PIS or inconsistency. It's the writer's misunderstanding of physics or overlook. It's likely that they didn't make a calculation, it's too far way off, but they manage to get the concept right, just mathematical error.

#150 Posted by Bezza (3855 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, Flash can punch harder. Force = M x A and he accelerates faster than anyone else including Superman. Superman has enough other super powers to allow Flash this title!