#251 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_titan_lord:actually flash hits harder,with his speed and the aura of the speed force he can hit and hurt characters in superman league and above without breaking his bones.

#253 Edited by RedRingOfDoom (16 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingmark14:

that's soooo true. power is a combination of strength, mass and speed, that's physics too.

#255 Posted by DigitalShooter9 (1487 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think flash can punch harder than superman, but I know for a fact that if he wanted, he could literally punch superman's brain out of his skull. He can vibrate through anything, and he is faster than superman to a degree where he is able to speed blitz him, plus, flash can use the speed force to steal speed. Technically, if he really wanted, he could just vibrate his hand through superman's skull and knock his brain out.... or he could combine that with IMP which will equal infinite punches to your brain.

Who hits with a greater impact? I would say superman.

But who is more dangerous? The answer is obvious.

#256 Posted by Bruticus112 (110 posts) - - Show Bio

@zhege:

Sorry for replying so late bud. Comic vine is messing up something when someone replies to me.

By harder and thicker fist I meant Superman is more "heavy-handed" or I guess you can also say like Supermans fist is much harder than titanium. Getting hit by titanium hurts even if it doesn't have much mass or speed.

#257 Posted by MatteoPG (1921 posts) - - Show Bio

Guys, every time you try to bring out real world physics to explain why in your opinion flash is stronger than anyone, my heart cries a little. Flash goes fast not because he can move fast, but because of the speed force, an imaginary, unrealistic field that negates a whole bunch of physical laws around the user. Yes, they can pop out of the speed force and use the acceleration to do some feats, but I think that the reasoning is: the speed force negates the action/reaction effects of the speeds the Flash reaches, so it's not like he can use them at full to exert force on stuff unless he takes some of the recoil himself.

It's also, of course, a matter of character concept: Flash's power is speed. In a fictional world, the authors want him to have feats that relate strictly to speed. If you overlapped feats too much with a character with such a different concept, the fun would be lessened because we want each hero to do his/her own thing.

#258 Posted by Zhege (91 posts) - - Show Bio

@bruticus112: Same happened to me about the notifications not long ago, for some reason they got turned off in my settings.

Superman is indeed "heavy-handed" and there are some panels where Flash has even crushed his hand, but that's a rare happening because Flash has a barrier around his fists that protects them and should always be protecting him. Meaning that with the Speed Force Flash is also "heavy-handed". Both are heavy handed, similar mass (Superman taking an edge), and not comparable in speed (Flash dominating).

#259 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (4552 posts) - - Show Bio

Supe's

#260 Edited by Bruticus112 (110 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok everyone, I have a quetion. Does strength equel more mass? Because I found this site:

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-5-most-important-factors-winning-a-fight

And it says this:

"The stronger you are the harder you hit" because "It is a simple fact of physics that force equals speed times mass and the stronger the muscles the more damage the punches and kicks"

Does this mean that the stronger you are, the more mass is behind your punches/kicks?

#261 Posted by fil123 (471 posts) - - Show Bio

flash has the potential to be the deadliest character in the DC verse

#262 Edited by PeppeyHare (4310 posts) - - Show Bio
#263 Edited by Bruticus112 (110 posts) - - Show Bio

@zhege:

Yup, that's true.

Anyways, who told you that if you have a bigger fist the power will just disperse more? Doesn't a bigger fist just have more room for more power?

Here for example it says that the size of a fist is a part of punching power:

http://darcangelodd.edublogs.org/2013/01/11/increase-punching-power/

"Basically, this means that if you have huge hands and could snap or move your arm fast, you will be able to have a strong punching power."

#264 Posted by EnigmaLantern (718 posts) - - Show Bio

I find it hilarious how some people have previously tried to add the laws of physics to a fictional universe where certain beings defy the laws of physics.

But to go with the whole theory that if Flash punched while going at a velocity which would be equivelant or higher than the proposed mass of Superman, although he would theoretically hit harder, wouldn't he take some of the recoil (seeing as when a force goes against an aobject or another force, it disperses into two directions - Newton's laws of motions. So wouldn't Flash have to endure part of the force with which he used to hit/punch Superman (with Flash's punching arm absorbing most of the "recoil" from the punch)? Not to mention theincredibly difficult task of punching someone while reaching incredible speeds such as the speed of light.

#265 Edited by RedRingOfDoom (16 posts) - - Show Bio

@tjsh96:

Strength is definitly a part of punching power. You cant just say that strength has nothing to do with it just because you prefer speed and mass.

Here's some proof:

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-5-most-important-factors-winning-a-fight

"The stronger you are the harder you hit"

http://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-training/boxing-workouts/why-lifting-weights-wont-increase-punching-power

"The reason why some people punch harder with weights is because they use their strength to compensate for the lack of effective technique. If you don’t know how to use your body weight, then sure…doing things like strengthening your muscles and trying to push your fist through your opponent might help."

Basically if you literary try to punch through someone/something, strength is the most important factor.

http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/music_movies_girls_life/george_foremans_punching_power

"Forman hsd brute strength, Tyson hsd speed and violence of action. Tyson has a better one punch knockout, jarring flash knockdowns. Forman had punishing, pushing, smashing punches."

Yes, speed does matter still, but strength and speed have different "types of power" I suppose. Speed is explosiveness, or like a quick slit in the face and strength is raw, brute power, crushing your limbs, mass probably has the same "effect" as strength too but in another way I guess.

#266 Edited by RedRingOfDoom (16 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d:

The guy who made that post said that strength is a factor three times.

"When you don’t know how to punch, all your punches become pushes. Without the proper technique, all you can do is use your strength and power. This is why lifting weights actually helped me punch harder as a beginner"

"

  1. Punching power (damage caused) = acceleration (hand speed) x force (muscle strength & body weight)"

How exactly could you miss that? Not to mention this:

"The reason why some people punch harder with weights is because they use their strength to compensate for the lack of effective technique. If you don’t know how to use your body weight, then sure…doing things like strengthening your muscles and trying to push your fist through your opponent might help."

Here's also some more proof that strength is a part of punching power:

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-5-most-important-factors-winning-a-fight

"The stronger you are the harder you hit"

Here's some more:

http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/music_movies_girls_life/george_foremans_punching_power

"Forman hsd brute strength, Tyson hsd speed and violence of action. Tyson has a better one punch knockout, jarring flash knockdowns. Forman had punishing, pushing, smashing punches."

So basically if you punch with speed your like a quick slit in the eye, and if you punch with strength you try to smash someones face in. Of course strength aint the only factor, there are a lot of other factors.

#267 Edited by SlimJ87D (9324 posts) - - Show Bio

@redringofdoom said:

@slimj87d:

The guy who that post said that strength is a factor three times.

"When you don’t know how to punch, all your punches become pushes. Without the proper technique, all you can do is use your strength and power. This is why lifting weights actually helped me punch harder as a beginner"

"

  1. Punching power (damage caused) = acceleration (hand speed) x force (muscle strength & body weight)"

How exactly could you miss that? Not to mention this:

"The reason why some people punch harder with weights is because they use their strength to compensate for the lack of effective technique. If you don’t know how to use your body weight, then sure…doing things like strengthening your muscles and trying to push your fist through your opponent might help."

Here's also some more proof that strength is a part of punching power:

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-5-most-important-factors-winning-a-fight

"The stronger you are the harder you hit"

Here's some more:

http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/music_movies_girls_life/george_foremans_punching_power

"Forman hsd brute strength, Tyson hsd speed and violence of action. Tyson has a better one punch knockout, jarring flash knockdowns. Forman had punishing, pushing, smashing punches."

So basically if you punch with speed your like a quick slit in the eye, and if you punch with strength you try to smash someones face in. Of course strength aint the only factor, there are a lot of other factors.

If comparing people of equal mass, the effects of how strong you are eventually becomes negligible when it comes to the power in a punch. Where strength would play a role in the power behind a punch, speed would be dozens if not 100s times more important.

http://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-training/boxing-workouts/why-lifting-weights-wont-increase-punching-power

#268 Edited by RedRingOfDoom (16 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d:

I dont think you're wrong, in fact speed is probably the most important factor when it comes to hitting hard, second is mass, and after that comes strength. I aint saying that speed has nothing to do with punching power, but saying that strength has nothing to do with punching power is just wrong.

Another thing I meant is that strength is more like raw power, breaking (punching) through things and speed is more like energy/power having explosive impacts.

#269 Edited by SlimJ87D (9324 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d:

I dont think you're wrong, in fact speed is probably the most important factor when it comes to hitting hard, second is mass, and after that comes strength. I aint saying that speed has nothing to do with punching power, but saying that strength has nothing to do with punching power is just wrong.

Another thing I meant is that strength is more like raw power, breaking (punching) through things and speed is more like energy/power having explosive impacts.

Physics would say that it relies more on mass and change in speed, acceleration.

Biology and chemistry would show that you would need more muscle instead of fat to be able to convert calories into the energy to move your muscles at a certain speed. Also, muscle is more dense than fat, so someone with more muscle would likely be someone with more mass.

Yes, strength does matter but the bigger factors as you can see are mass and speed. Strength helps you manipulate your mass at certain speeds, but it just so happens that doubling your strength doesn't necessarily double your speed.

In the case of this situation, the Flash draws his power of a magical external energy that allows him to exist in a time that is going by much faster than ours yet he carries over our real world physics when he performs his feat unless if he lends this external energy to an object or person. So pretty much, the Flash doesn't depend on strength but rather his connection to this magical external energy known as the speed force. Thus, he is capable of reacting, moving and performing feats at speeds much greater than Superman can and therefore he should be able to punch with greater force regardless of his strength or punching technique.

#270 Edited by RedRingOfDoom_ (2 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d:

If you wonder what happened to my name (notice that I have an _ at the end of my name), this is my "back-up" accont if I reach my post limit, which I just did on my original accont.

That's a really good point. I didn't know some of that, thanks.

I guess that also explains why bodybuilders usually cant hit hard despite their great mass and (somewhat) great strength , they dont have enough strength to "punch through" their opponent or to manipulate or control their mass I guess (bodybuilders are strong but not as strong as they look).

#271 Posted by MonsterStomp (15813 posts) - - Show Bio

Thread is still going.... -.-

Online
#272 Posted by logy5000 (5654 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman punches with greater strength, Flash hits with a greater velocity.

The better question is who's punches would hurt more.

#273 Edited by TJSH96 (773 posts) - - Show Bio

@redringofdoom:

Momentum: P = mv.

Force: F = ma.

Kinetic energy: Ek = 1/2 mv^2

Now one could argue: "Why are you trying to bring real-life physics into a comic-book world?" Well, why indeed? Going by the comic-books, Flash has one-shot Superman-level characters before and has damaged people that even Superman couldn't.

#274 Posted by RedRingOfDoom (16 posts) - - Show Bio

@tjsh96:

Ok? So now you're saying strength can make you hit hard in real life but not in comic books?

And why would I put in all of those reasons why strength actially is a factor? Because both in comic books and in real life, strength can always make you hit hard, the only difference is that in comics many belive that strength is the only factor which it aint.

#275 Posted by TJSH96 (773 posts) - - Show Bio

Look at the physics equations I posted. Can you understand them or do you want me to explain them to you?

#276 Edited by RedRingOfDoom (16 posts) - - Show Bio

@tjsh96:

No you dont. I know that momentum=mass x velocity, and force=mass x acceleration. But what's your point? I just said why strength can make you hit harder, I never said that mass and speed means nothing.

#277 Posted by TJSH96 (773 posts) - - Show Bio

@redringofdoom:

Lifting weights is not going to help you punch with more power.

#278 Posted by RedRingOfDoom_ (2 posts) - - Show Bio

@tjsh96:

Yes it is. Did you even read my comment? It's quite easy to understand. Belive whatever you want, to me it just seems like your a Flash fanboy. Also since you said yourself that mass is a part of power, I dont see why lifting weights wouldn't help even if strength meant nothing.

#279 Posted by dum529001 (1624 posts) - - Show Bio

@tjsh96 said:

@redringofdoom:

Lifting weights is not going to help you punch with more power.

Yes it will. But guess what? if you don't know how to punch correctly then you won't be able to put out the fastest and therefore most effective punch that you can.

Muscle mass-denity, which what gives the body the durabilty to act without rip itself apart and the energy-density of the neroun motors that move them is what determines the contraction speed of the muscles, which is what determines a muscle's power.

"Power" is how quickly you can move an object over a distance, the rate at which you do "work". P= w/t

"Work" is exerting force on an object and moving it over a distance. W= F x d

"Force" is mass multipled by an objects rate of motion. F= m x a

When it comes to striking:

Whether its lifting something or striking something, you're doing the same motion, which is thrusting your arms.

The difference between a punch and a lift is this....

The force of a punch is more concentrated, focused just between the index and middle finger.

The concentration of force gives the punch more destructive power. Lifting lacks in destructive ability because it doesn't focus all power on a single point.

And so...

Yes, highly athletic people are fast.

Weight lifters actually can hit just as hard as martial artist, as long as they strike the way a martial artist does (by focusing their power).

Force is the acceleration of mass. Muscle and bone density is there in order to keep a person from injuring themselves with the force they put out.

Super-Speed + Super-Durability= Super Strength character

Either you have big mass and little acceleration, or a relatively small mass and huge acceleration.

And the term "acceleration" is used within "F=ma" formula because it assumes that objects are not moving at the same velocity all the time, constantly.

As its known, the term acceleration is used to describe the rate of change in a objects rate of motion (rate of motion is known as speed)

The true and technical formula for Force is this: Force= Mass x Velocity(better known as "Kinetic Energy= 1/2 x an object's Mass x the Velocity")http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/energy/u5l1c.cfm

We just have remember that even though velocity, and objects rate of motion, is what determines force, acceleration is always involved because objects never move at the same velocity all the time, constantly.

A punches' velocity reaches it peak when its bent and almost but not fully extended. Before it reaches that point its quickly climbing in speed and we call that "acceleration". The higher the speed you reach in short amount of time, the more acceleration you will have. With speed comes acceleration. With speed comes force.

Never forget about resistance forces!!

Another differance between striking and lifting is:

The slowness in a lift comes from the fact that you have forces working against against you as you push. That what happens when you stand in the way of resisting gravitation forces. Forces that are close to eqaul will cancel each other out a little. During a lift, your entire limb is more connected to what your lifting so you expect to feel more resistance on your whole limb as you lift. Your force is being cancelled out a rate close to the rate it is being put out.

Another difference between striking and lifting is "work". How great a distance your force can push something in a single blow. I can give 2000 pounds a nudge but I can't actually lift that weigth in the complete and formal way.

And of course, there is "Power", the rate at which work is done.

#280 Posted by WhoSentTheseBabiesToFight (3 posts) - - Show Bio

@tjsh96:

lol, weight lifting made me hit harder xD I'm a boxer btw

#281 Edited by Bruticus112 (110 posts) - - Show Bio
#282 Edited by FlashIsOverrated (3 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman. speed has very little to do with punching power, both in comics and in real life. strength is a lot more important, and the mass part of the equation too

#283 Posted by toptom (1155 posts) - - Show Bio
#284 Posted by Baron_von_Santa (4271 posts) - - Show Bio
#285 Posted by dum529001 (1624 posts) - - Show Bio

Actially I found this:

http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/music_movies_girls_life/george_foremans_punching_power

"Forman hsd brute strength, Tyson hsd speed and violence of action. Tyson has a better one punch knockout, jarring flash knockdowns. Forman had punishing, pushing, smashing punches."

Superman is stronger an' has more mass so he has more smashin' kind of punches, Flash has more speed so he has more snappin' kinda punches soooo I dunno who hits harder =L.

Proper punching form allows for a person to use their full speed from start to finish.

#286 Posted by CaptnMcDeadpool (951 posts) - - Show Bio

I hear a lot of scientific thought behind the responses. I think that is good as long as it doesn't get in the way of the feat itself. Lot of folks I hear making some pretty outrageous claims about character's punching power. At the end of the day, the feats over a character's continuity should be the deciding factor. I'm familiar with the Flash. Wonder Woman has stated he hits harder than Superman. This appears to harmonize with real world science, seeing as Wally is much faster than Superman, although...Superman is far and away, much stronger than Wally. The most powerful results I've seen of a punch from Wally was in JLA three, which was the first instance of of the IMP. It resulted in a white Martian (about Kryptonian level in power) being knocked cross continent. Unless someone has something that indicates Wally can hit harder than that?

Anyone? Anyone out there?

Having said that, I am not so familiar with Superman and his feats as they relate to punching power. Are there any feats at all of Superman's punching power being greater than Wally's IMP in JLA 3?

Anyone?

Personally, feats are king in any discussion like this one. Anything else is a lot of conjecture. Feats that are submitted for scrutiny in support of a proposed notion (for example, Wally's punches do more damage than Superman's...) should either clearly indicate that the character has done something...OR....the feat submitted should clearly indicate the character is capable of something.

#287 Posted by worldFlash (40 posts) - - Show Bio

If you put it into Physical sense then the Flash would have the more powerful punch. Following the equation F=ma, if Flash hits you accelerating to the speed of sound in about 1 second and then if you understand the laws made by the equation E=mc^2 then you know that the more energy he has the greater his mass, sense they are directly proportional to each other. If you know that the speed force has thus far been known to be a unlimited form of energy this thus means the Flash can reach infinite mass. Now back to the original equation we can say that the force of one of Flashes punches equals the infinite mass, because he is moving at the speed of light which takes infinite energy to reach times the acceleration he moved at, which would be the difference between his final speed and initial speed of the Flash divide by the time between this change of speed. Thus having a infinite mass would mean that his punch is already strong enough to destroy a solar system and much more,but his acceleration is 3*10^6/30 (just a guess of how long it takes him to reach speed of light from my readings of Flash comics.) This is a acceleration of 1,000,000 (m/s^2). Now lets observe Superman. He has a punch that can destroy the Earth, this is in 5.6 Pentillion Newtons (I believe it is in Newtons may be wrong). I also, believe they stated that his maximum punch is something around 8 Octillion Newtons. This is very impressive, but compared to the Flashes punch I believe he would fall quite short. Also, if you want to get into the idea of him using the star in our solar system as a power source you must remember that this power source is a finite mode of energy, it will eventually reach its maximum amount of mass and go into melt down. Thus the speed force is a far superior energy source especially as it is directly linked to the Flash, while the sun is not to Superman.

#288 Posted by PowerHerc (81602 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman.

No question. No doubt.

#289 Edited by ilikedonuts (1922 posts) - - Show Bio

why aint this locked yet?

also Superman

an' also why are so many people ignorin' the mass? force=MASS repeat MAAAAASS x acceleration.

#290 Edited by New_World_Order (12489 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman.

No question. No doubt.

#291 Posted by reaverlation (13934 posts) - - Show Bio

Wally without a doubt

Online
#292 Posted by comicace3 (3469 posts) - - Show Bio

Physics dictates, that if flash goes fast enough, then he can hit harder.