"if DM can figure out away to control the power of cosmic,he would most likely remove all of it from SS's body."
Don't see how Manhattan can harness such a powerful source of energy. The Surfer however, can easily manipulate the quantum energy that Manhattan is made of.
Just been reading but cannot sit hear all night lol, I think that when Dr M was demonstrating his abilities he was mererly entertaining the normal humans. He really doesn't seem to show any need for proving himself as his interests lie in tranquility and being at one with all things.
I do however think that if the SS can just absorbe the Dr then it would/should be game over for the blue bloke and i even doubt that Dr M would care lol as he would be just as happy not being at all. maybe the Dr could just place himself inside the SS and investigate him without even being noticed then gradually turn his insides into whatever he feels like, cheese maybe lolol. He could then be the cheese surfer.
Dr M strikes me as a new entity that is longing more discovery and wisdom and maybe will sit idle just soaking up everything known and will already know what everyone else is made of and understand the fundamentals of all and then just turn everything to cheese.
"if DM can figure out away to control the power of cosmic,he would most likely remove all of it from SS's body."
Don't see how Manhattan can harness such a powerful source of energy. The Surfer however, can easily manipulate the quantum energy that Manhattan is made of. "
Bar plot devices from character's leagues smarter than Manhattan was, thats likely not going to happen. Talking about a character that just has vastly beaten Manhattan in nearly ever field of control. @grimlock said:
"but we don't know what the Power Cosmic would do to Dr. Manhattan."
It like silver surfer vs Beyonder really. You just know that the power cosmic is like 10 percent of galactus. Beyonder can beat galactus lol. You see how much it is to him now??
"
I thought the power cosmic was less than that portion of his power
Manhattan's powers are almost unlimited but then again, The Surfer has the power of the cosmos behind him...it would be a battle of gods that will literal change and bend the shape of time and space.
"i think it's a stalemate, cause no one can die. But surfer will be dominating the fight "
Astral Plane.
@Dracade102 said:
"Doctor Manhattan can't die (as far as I know)... And, didn't the Surfer get taken down by zombie Avengers? "
No one in his Universe as far as we know had the power to kill him, that doesn't make him unkillable. Reed builds guns to take down Celestials, he could likely come up with a gizmo that would actually put down Manhattan pretty easily.
It wasn't Avengers and the Surfer was pwning them. Problem is, the writers wanted the Universe to become a zombie meal, so they turned Norrin and Galactus into a plot device for them to gain the power to do exactly that.
You should take note, Wolverine's arm actually falls off trying to cut the Surfer with his claws and Zombie Hulk by some miracle the Hulk's super strong teeth where able to bite the Surfer's head off. Then he became taffy that all the zombies could eat which also made absolutely no sense.
Normally when the Surfer runs into the Hulk he either tanks his attacks without being harmed or depowers him in seconds. So it can be argued either both Galactus or Norrin where jobbing like crazy(Galactus was jobbing so bad he was made of meat and bones) or they where MUCH weaker than they are in 616.
I don't know if Manhattan can die or at least get knocked out. But he won't be able to do anything to Surfer, he can do anything Manhattan can do but on a way higher level and way more. But then again Surfer could manipulate the energy his made out of and throw him into a black hole and then what happens...happens.
Even if Manhattan can't be killed or knocked out (I don't see why he can't. The Watchmen universe's biggest threat to him is Ozymandias, who is a poor man's Reed Richards), Surfer can definitely keep him down by continually disassembling him or mentally assaulting him.
@JediXMan: Your icon is very intimidating. Yes he can do these things for sure. So if the battle had a time limit like lets say.....an hour? And there are three judges there to score there performance and how they did. Surfer would dominate! 10 10 10! But otherwise its seems like it will go on for a while till one of them gets bored and leaves or decides to stop the fighting, realizing it is pointless, and have an intellectual conversation on thoughts and ideas. Yes.
I see no reason why it wouldn't count as a win. If Surfer subdues Manhattan and Manhattan has no way of stopping him or defending himself, that's a clear win for Norrin.
Yeah, many people say that - and that's why this is my avatar. It scares people. (see, Decoy Elite? It does scare people)
@JediXMan: Yes but would not technically be knock out or kill. But it would be win in my book because he completely overpowers him and Manhattan might beg him to stop or something, but then again its not knock out or kill. BUT HEY! He could probably get knocked out, I don't know. If he can Surfer wins here.
@youfinished: well lets think about it energy is all around us, what makes the energy that DM is made of special is that it possesses a consciousness at any time, if you think about it, DM could abandon his manifested form and enter the surfers body of his own will, and unless im mistaken there has never been a case where the surfer has lost all of his physical form and came back. Plus their is the case of where Manhattan can ,during the fight, observe the surfers use of cosmic energy and learn to use it himself.
" @youfinished: well lets think about it energy is all around us, what makes the energy that DM is made of is that it possesses a consciousness at any time, if you think about it, DM could abandon his manifested form and enter the surfers body of his own will, and unless im mistaken there has never been a case where the surfer has lost all of his physical form and came back. Plus their is the case of where Manhattan can ,during the fight, observe the surfers use of cosmic energy and learn to use it himself. "
The silver surfer has full control over all his powers. Tell me whats stopping him from controlling Manhattan and converting him back to a mere human then letting him die in space?
" @youfinished: well lets think about it energy is all around us, what makes the energy that DM is made of is that it possesses a consciousness at any time, if you think about it, DM could abandon his manifested form and enter the surfers body of his own will, and unless im mistaken there has never been a case where the surfer has lost all of his physical form and came back. Plus their is the case of where Manhattan can ,during the fight, observe the surfers use of cosmic energy and learn to use it himself. "
Yes in theory that sounds great but logically no. Manhattan has never displayed this at all but I'm pretty sure Surfer can project him self on the astral plane. And also it makes no sense your automatically assuming that Manhattan is on such a power level to over power the Silver Surfer's on will power and control his body. When Manhattan has done nothing to show he is on Surfers level at all. Manhattan is just a medium-tier matter manipulator. To assume he can do this with out any proof at all or when he as never displayed any power to put him on the level with Silver Surfer is extremely desperate,in my book, to make Manhattan seem like more than he really is.
The doctor purpose of existence is to learn, observe, and if he feels like it create. That being said whats to stop the guy who has nothing better to do than learn the power of cosmic obviously this guy can do anything he feels like. Oh yeh could you please explain where you got the theory of him not being able to harness cosmic energy is an iron clad rule. P.S. I do now admit that the surfer has lost his physical form
" The doctor purpose of existence is to learn, observe, and if he feels like it create. That being said whats to stop the guy who has nothing better to do than learn the power of cosmic obviously this guy can do anything he feels like. Oh yeh could you please explain where you got the theory of him not being able to harness cosmic energy is an iron clad rule. P.S. I do now admit that the surfer has lost his physical form "
Yes he does learn and all but again he still wouldn't get the chance at all to even get in Surfers body and power cosmic is not something you can just learn to use even a guy like Manhattan probably can't do it but once again he won't even get a chance so this argument is obsolete . If so he tries and sees it is futile, Surfer will manipulate him in this form. Or like what JediXMan said earlier and just mind rape him.
Well sense surfer has cosmic awareness he would have already know that Manhattan's weakness is tachyons. So all he would need to do is make a mass amount of tachyons then just stomp the blue, homeless killing, man from there.
@SilverSavage: i think whats stopping him is the simple difference of the energy silver surfer has manipulated before and the energy that makes up what "IS" Manhattan and that is that it possesses a conciseness. You can manipulate a robot because it has no form of thought, you cant manipulate people because they will usually realize that someone is attempting to manipulate them. -My question is simple, has silver surfer ever manipulated an energy source that possessed a conciseness and if so how did he go about manipulating it? ( do you really think DM is just going to let himself get date raped without puttiing up a fight?
Yes, I believe he has. I believe he has fought energy beings on the Astral Plane. Manhattan has no telepathic feats and therefore we have no reason to believe him resistant to telepathy.
That all he is a conciseness. What happens when SS use telepathy to bend and twist his conciseness to utterly nothing then he's just energy that can not even form a physical appearance.
" @SilverSavage: i think whats stopping him is the simple difference of the energy silver surfer has manipulated before and the energy that makes up what "IS" Manhattan and that is that it possesses a conciseness. You can manipulate a robot because it has no form of thought, you cant manipulate people because they will usually realize that someone is attempting to manipulate them. -My question is simple, has silver surfer ever manipulated an energy source that possessed a conciseness and if so how did he go about manipulating it? ( do you really think DM is just going to let himself get date raped without puttiing up a fight? "
The only thing with energy having a conciseness is that its only a little bit harder to manipulate because it will resist. Like a human, trying to be controlled by a blood manipulator, it will resist having the body manipulated but the blood manipulator being of a higher power(so to speak) will over power the human. The energy is his physical form as is a human's body, flesh and blood, is its physical form.
And I don't know of DM having any TP resistances to resist any of the Surfer's mind assualts to even put up a fight.
He used Telepathy on Dr Strange from a distance of 1 Galaxy away He showed to be resisting one of the universe's most powerful telepathics - Moondragon (and she had the Infinity Mind Gem)
Doctor Manhattan was a BIG FISH in a small pond. He was pretty much the ONLY being with Super powers. For God sake, he was feeling pain when he was being attacked and he wasn't even able to stop every missiles. The guy is NOTHING.
Captain Atom has feats above him.
Silver Surfer (and I dislike SS), wins in a STOMP.
"Fact is you guys dont know Dr. M's limits and just dont want to admit Dr. M is more powerful than Surfer. Saying Dr. M is weaker than Atom is I dunno I almost wanted to laugh when I saw that. Only way Surfer can win this is if he can get around Dr. M's Immortality. Otherwise Surfer loses. 8 out of 10 Dr. Manhattan wins this. "
Manhattan showed plenty of limits, his matter manipulation can't cure cancer, someone could be right next to him unable to breath for a bit before he even notices to supply them with air, his reaction time and speed is slow enough to get tagged by a machine that vaporizes him and he can sit there as a bullet goes right into a pregnant woman right infront of him. Did I miss anything?
Oh yeah, he was afraid he couldn't stop the Soviets from wrecking the US, despite being able to duplicate himself.
His he can easily make a normal person go splat, not even turn them to dust, instead just have them go splat all over the place. His destrucive feats cap off at killing normal people, the most destruction we see out of Watchman isn't even from him. Just a machine that replicates his power under the control of Ozzy that busts a few cities.
Norrin has a slighty better reaction time and speed under his belt.
Manhattan makes people go splat, Norrin is a bit more creative with his matter energy / manipulation.
Cancer owns Manhattan while the Surfer brings people back from what is seemingly their deaths, gives people super powers, takes them away yata yata.
Actually can travel through time.
Easily more durable physically while having more strength than anything Manhattan has ever ran into.
Turns the Hulk right into Banner
Uses plot devices such as the Crunch to channel energies through his body that take down beings Manhattan couldn't even imagine.
His matter manipulation is top notch, he can phase you out of reality, create singularities in your eyes, make blood boil. Again Manhattan makes you go splat easily, which is about a thousand times less impressive in ALL ways possible.
The by product of Norrin's battles has planets going BOOM. Not even him straight up blasting the planet directly, just a byproduct. Manhattan? Well he takes on a bunch of normal people making them go splat, with no massive destructive feats under his name,
Put Norrin in Manhattan's place in Watchmen. He disarms the soviet weapons form orbit, cures Manhattan's ex wife's cancer, stops the bullet from ever harming the chick the Comedian nocked up in vietnam, speeds around the globe preventing the cities being destroyed by Manhattan's little generator (easily) by Ozzy, laughs off Ozzy's attempt to vaporize him while sending the machines own energy back right into it frying it.
Hell he stops the Comedian from ever snipping Kennedy, doing what the rest of the Watchman cast failed to do, put him in jail for some of the plain warcrimes and horrible things he did.
0 out of 10 Manhattan wins, 10 out of 10 for Surfer.
Manhattan never get the chance to show the power to even harm the Surfer(Good luck proving how a subpar Matter Manipulator can take him down). While SS takes on much more powerful characters, showing off how much better his Matter / energy manipulation is on Manhattan while having a host of abilities to take Manhattan down.
Dr Manhattan can do things Norrin can't, winning this fight isn't one of those things. He is many times much more slow, has no real feats to show how destructive he is, subpar matter manipulation feats in general, and gets scared of Mother Russia's arsenal of weapons. Soviets, Cancer, Ozzy's Machine, in general only beating crazy people with no super powers and being controlled by a man.
Reserving this for the Response from Defender how we are all SS fanboys, how the world is against him while hes right and we are all wrong.
I repeat, Manhattan is not Omnipotent, hes not a reality warper and he doesn't have any experience with taking characters with actual super powers, especially ones that are more powerful than he is.
At best the silver surfer could be considered a demi-god, while he does possess massive amounts of strength and energy, i doubt is an omniscient being with the power to destroy or create start systems. Dr. Manhattan exists in the past present and future, and if you look at the universe as stellar spider web made of particles, it is without a doubt that with Doc's ability to manipulate sub atomic particles, he no only would know everything that is happening, but he would also have complete control of everything. Doc is basically an all powerful all knowing(omniscient) being.
At best the silver surfer could be considered a demi-god, while he does possess massive amounts of strength and energy, i doubt is an omniscient being with the power to destroy or create start systems. Dr. Manhattan exists in the past present and future, and if you look at the universe as stellar spider web made of particles, it is without a doubt that with Doc's ability to manipulate sub atomic particles, he no only would know everything that is happening, but he would also have complete control of everything. Doc is basically an all powerful all knowing(omniscient) being.
Manhattan can create star system...yet it was stated that he couldn't even stop all of the Russian nukes...He's Omniscient, yet was fooled into believing that he had given his friends cancer, all powerful..yet he couldn't prevent the destruction of several major cities. for the last time, Manhattan isn't omniscient/omnipotent/omnipresent...he is not a god, hes a matter/energy manipulator...stop making false claims.
Silver Surfer shows Manhattan what a real matter/energy manipulator can do.
At best the silver surfer could be considered a demi-god, while he does possess massive amounts of strength and energy, i doubt is an omniscient being with the power to destroy or create start systems. Dr. Manhattan exists in the past present and future, and if you look at the universe as stellar spider web made of particles, it is without a doubt that with Doc's ability to manipulate sub atomic particles, he no only would know everything that is happening, but he would also have complete control of everything. Doc is basically an all powerful all knowing(omniscient) being.
Manhattan can create star system...yet it was stated that he couldn't even stop all of the Russian nukes...He's Omniscient, yet was fooled into believing that he had given his friends cancer, all powerful..yet he couldn't prevent the destruction of several major cities. for the last time, Manhattan isn't omniscient/omnipotent/omnipresent...he is not a god, hes a matter/energy manipulator...stop making false claims. Silver Surfer shows Manhattan what a real matter/energy manipulator can do.
It was stated by Ozymandias that he couldn't stop all the nukes. Ozy's word doesn't have to be canon, he didn't even know that Manhattan could reform himself. And he couldn't see the conspiracy against him because of the tachyon interference. Read Watchmen again. All the things Manhattan did in the book and movie were done casually, like he wasn't even trying. If he went all out he has the Surfer beat.
At best the silver surfer could be considered a demi-god, while he does possess massive amounts of strength and energy, i doubt is an omniscient being with the power to destroy or create start systems. Dr. Manhattan exists in the past present and future, and if you look at the universe as stellar spider web made of particles, it is without a doubt that with Doc's ability to manipulate sub atomic particles, he no only would know everything that is happening, but he would also have complete control of everything. Doc is basically an all powerful all knowing(omniscient) being.
Manhattan can create star system...yet it was stated that he couldn't even stop all of the Russian nukes...He's Omniscient, yet was fooled into believing that he had given his friends cancer, all powerful..yet he couldn't prevent the destruction of several major cities. for the last time, Manhattan isn't omniscient/omnipotent/omnipresent...he is not a god, hes a matter/energy manipulator...stop making false claims. Silver Surfer shows Manhattan what a real matter/energy manipulator can do.
It was stated by Ozymandias that he couldn't stop all the nukes. Ozy's word doesn't have to be canon, he didn't even know that Manhattan could reform himself. And he couldn't see the conspiracy against him because of the tachyon interference. Read Watchmen again. All the things Manhattan did in the book and movie were done casually, like he wasn't even trying. If he went all out he has the Surfer beat.
For now Silver surfer has feats that will make Manhattan look silly. What he has atomic control and some quantum senses? SS has all of that on a higher level AND so much more...
At best the silver surfer could be considered a demi-god, while he does possess massive amounts of strength and energy, i doubt is an omniscient being with the power to destroy or create start systems. Dr. Manhattan exists in the past present and future, and if you look at the universe as stellar spider web made of particles, it is without a doubt that with Doc's ability to manipulate sub atomic particles, he no only would know everything that is happening, but he would also have complete control of everything. Doc is basically an all powerful all knowing(omniscient) being.
Manhattan can create star system...yet it was stated that he couldn't even stop all of the Russian nukes...He's Omniscient, yet was fooled into believing that he had given his friends cancer, all powerful..yet he couldn't prevent the destruction of several major cities. for the last time, Manhattan isn't omniscient/omnipotent/omnipresent...he is not a god, hes a matter/energy manipulator...stop making false claims. Silver Surfer shows Manhattan what a real matter/energy manipulator can do.
It was stated by Ozymandias that he couldn't stop all the nukes. Ozy's word doesn't have to be canon, he didn't even know that Manhattan could reform himself. And he couldn't see the conspiracy against him because of the tachyon interference. Read Watchmen again. All the things Manhattan did in the book and movie were done casually, like he wasn't even trying. If he went all out he has the Surfer beat.
If Ozy's claim is none-canon, then all of the claims made by Manhattan or his friends(i.e. Manhattan claiming that he would creat life or his friend calling him a god) are also none-canon, sins they never happened and can't be proven.
I am well aware of why Manhattan couldn't see the future, and that proves my point to Mixmata, who claims Manhattan is omniscient, if he was(Manhattan) then he would have known of Ozy'z plans form the start.
Manhattan need to take on some one more powerful then a few veit cong and street brawler..if i am to believe that he is equal or above SS, and i was not impressed by his parlor tricks either, SS could and has done everything manhattan did in that comic, only he's done it better...SS beats the overrated Captain Atom wannabe
At best the silver surfer could be considered a demi-god, while he does possess massive amounts of strength and energy, i doubt is an omniscient being with the power to destroy or create start systems. Dr. Manhattan exists in the past present and future, and if you look at the universe as stellar spider web made of particles, it is without a doubt that with Doc's ability to manipulate sub atomic particles, he no only would know everything that is happening, but he would also have complete control of everything. Doc is basically an all powerful all knowing(omniscient) being.
Manhattan can create star system...yet it was stated that he couldn't even stop all of the Russian nukes...He's Omniscient, yet was fooled into believing that he had given his friends cancer, all powerful..yet he couldn't prevent the destruction of several major cities. for the last time, Manhattan isn't omniscient/omnipotent/omnipresent...he is not a god, hes a matter/energy manipulator...stop making false claims. Silver Surfer shows Manhattan what a real matter/energy manipulator can do.
It was stated by Ozymandias that he couldn't stop all the nukes. Ozy's word doesn't have to be canon, he didn't even know that Manhattan could reform himself. And he couldn't see the conspiracy against him because of the tachyon interference. Read Watchmen again. All the things Manhattan did in the book and movie were done casually, like he wasn't even trying. If he went all out he has the Surfer beat.
For now Silver surfer has feats that will make Manhattan look silly. What he has atomic control and some quantum senses? SS has all of that on a higher level AND so much more...
Agreed, i just don't know where the people get this nonsense from.
LET THIS THREAD DIE. It's been discussed. Myself, Static, Hellos, and many others have said our peace. Surfer wins. I am not continuing this discussion any longer.
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