jason todds fighting ability

Due to the reboot Jason now knows more fighting styles than the rest of the bat family. He has been trained by bruce as well as the all-caste, to which I might add know over 3000 years of marshal arts, other worldly marshal arts due to the nexus, trained by over a dozen different assasin expert with the help of talia al gaul, and experience with magic. so my question is does he fight better than the bat familia?

@redhoodx said:

Due to the reboot Jason now knows more fighting styles than the rest of the bat family. He has been trained by bruce as well as the all-caste, to which I might add know over 3000 years of martial arts, other worldly martial arts due to the nexus, trained by over a dozen different assasin expert with the help of talia al gaul, and experience with magic. So, my question is does he fight better than the bat familia?

It is reasonable to believe he has the best fighting skills of the bat family, but he's definitely inferior in other areas (i.e. Batman would probably still win in an all-out fight).

@redhoodx said:

Due to the reboot Jason now knows more fighting styles than the rest of the bat family. He has been trained by bruce as well as the all-caste, to which I might add know over 3000 years of marshal arts, other worldly marshal arts due to the nexus, trained by over a dozen different assasin expert with the help of talia al gaul, and experience with magic. so my question is does he fight better than the bat familia?

Nope,training is nothing feats are everything.Bruce and Dick are better fighters,when Jason gets better feats against people with a proven reputation then maybe he could be considered elite.He's very good but he would hard pressed to find a place in the top 20 let alone top Bruce of all people who's in the top 5.

@redhoodx said:

Due to the reboot Jason now knows more fighting styles than the rest of the bat family. He has been trained by bruce as well as the all-caste, to which I might add know over 3000 years of marshal arts, other worldly marshal arts due to the nexus, trained by over a dozen different assasin expert with the help of talia al gaul, and experience with magic. so my question is does he fight better than the bat familia?

Nope,training is nothing feats are everything.Bruce and Dick are better fighters,when Jason gets better feats against people with a proven reputation then maybe he could be considered elite.He's very good but he would hard pressed to find a place in the top 20 let alone top Bruce of all people who's in the top 5.

Batman and all the Robins are on the same "tier" combat-wise, although once you factor in Batman's experience he has an advantage. The inverse for Damian because of his inexperience.

The only member of the Bat Family I'd put above the others in pure combat capability is Cassandra, assuming she still exists. And that's because she's supposed to be Shiva-level, one tick above. Not that this would mean she automatically wins a fight, mind you.

I have a post somewhere on these forums where I tried to lay out a "tier" system for classifying this. Lemme see if I can find it.

Okay found it, from the thread "Is there a ranking of DC martial artists out there?":

@fodigg said:

This is probably best to be done in "tiers" instead of ranking individually. And when performing this exercise, it should be noted that at this level of skill (counting all tiers together) anyone could beat anyone depending on how the fight goes (or what the plot requires):

Tier 0 (hypothetical perfection):

• Batman One Million
• O-Sensei
• Sensei
• Ducra
• Natas

Tier 1 (effectively superpowered):

• Shiva
• White Canary
• Connor Hawke
• Silver Monkey
• King Snake
• Cassandra Cain
• Richard Dragon
• Karate Kid
• Bronze Tiger
• Constantine Drakon
• I-Ching

Tier 2 (competitive at the highest levels):

• Batman
• Wonder Woman (also superpowered)
• Black Canary (also superpowered)
• Tim Drake
• Ra's al Ghul
• Talia al Ghul
• Jason Todd
• Dick Grayson
• David Cain
• Damian Wayne
• Deathstroke (also superpowered)
• Archer Braun (also superpowered)
• Midnighter (also superpowered)
• etc (see here for more examples)

@fodigg said:

Batman and all the Robins are on the same "tier" combat-wise, although once you factor in Batman's experience he has an advantage. The inverse for Damian because of his inexperience.

The only member of the Bat Family I'd put above the others in pure combat capability is Cassandra, assuming she still exists. And that's because she's supposed to be Shiva-level, one tick above. Not that this would mean she automatically wins a fight, mind you.

I have a post somewhere on these forums where I tried to lay out a "tier" system for classifying this. Lemme see if I can find it.

Okay found it, from the thread "Is there a ranking of DC martial artists out there?":

@fodigg said:

This is probably best to be done in "tiers" instead of ranking individually. And when performing this exercise, it should be noted that at this level of skill (counting all tiers together) anyone could beat anyone depending on how the fight goes (or what the plot requires):

Tier 0 (hypothetical perfection):

• Batman One Million
• O-Sensei
• Sensei
• Ducra
• Natas

Tier 1 (effectively superpowered):

• Shiva
• White Canary
• Connor Hawke
• Silver Monkey
• King Snake
• Cassandra Cain
• Richard Dragon
• Karate Kid
• Bronze Tiger
• Constantine Drakon
• I-Ching

Tier 2 (competitive at the highest levels):

• Batman
• Wonder Woman (also superpowered)
• Black Canary (also superpowered)
• Tim Drake
• Ra's al Ghul
• Talia al Ghul
• Jason Todd
• Dick Grayson
• David Cain
• Damian Wayne
• Deathstroke (also superpowered)
• Archer Braun (also superpowered)
• Midnighter (also superpowered)
• etc (see here for more examples)

This list has sooooo many flaws that i don't even know where to start.

Batman one million is on the top tier but Karate kid is'nt?why the hell is King Snake so highly ranked? same goes for Natas.

Batman is in the top 5,no way is he in the same tier as Talia,Damian,Tim.David Cain is hyperbole,Braun has tp without which he lost to Huntress.Talia,Damian and Tim? lol wut?

Richard Dragon is overrated,he too is featless,White Canary needs more showings and background.Drakon and Deathstroke are hard to rank due to powers

The ageless one (Saar) would wipe the floor with Ducra?he wrecked Lady Shiva.Wrath is Batman's equal and Bane is almost up there and neither are on this list.If David Cain is up there then so should Kobra.Is O-Sensei even canon lol?

@fodigg: thanks for the list

@DEGRAAF said:

@fodigg: thanks for the list

This one's better.

Okay my new and improved list for HAND TO HAND/UNARMED combat.No involvement on any weapons,be they melee,firearms,projectiles etc

Not including characters like Prometheus,Karate Kid and Batman one million.

Characters based on feats and consistency.

1)Saar the Ageless one

2)Sensei

3)Cassandra Cain

4)Lady Shiva

5)Batman

6)Connor Hawke

7)Silver Monkey

8)Bronze Tiger

9) Wrath(both)

10)Bane

11)Kobra

12)Black Canary

13)King Snake

14)Deathstroke

15)Dick Grayson

16)Jean Paul Valley

17)Constantine Drakon

18)Kg Beast

19)Jason Todd

20)Ra's al Ghul

Characters based on hyperbole,limited or inconsistent feats(in the range between Batman and Bronze Tiger)

1)David Cain

2)White Canary

3)Azrael(Micheal Lane)

4)Tommy Jagger

5) Archer Braun

Unsure of where to place Katana,Judomasters',I-Ching,O-Sensei and Richard Dragon.

@entropy_aegis: is yours rated? Like do you believe that this is how that actually compare to one another? Also you dont have Damien or Tim on your list unless im missing them somewhere

@DEGRAAF said:

@entropy_aegis: is yours rated? Like do you believe that this is how that actually compare to one another? Also you dont have Damien or Tim on your list unless im missing them somewhere

I have done extensive research on all these characters,Tim and Damian are'nt on the level of the characters i mentioned.Even if i extend my list characters like Nkv Demon and more would be ranked higher.

@entropy_aegis:

never even heard of Nkv Demon

@entropy_aegis: Well keep in mind I wasn't putting that together based on serious study of scans, but rather a quick jotting down of where people go according to what we're told they're supposed to be in-continuity, something that doesn't always line up with what we get on the page (see Worf Effect, World's Expert on Getting Killed, and Make Way For The New Villains).

My primary goal was pushing the "tier"-style list over a nit-picky list of individual rankings, which leads to massive kvetching and QQing all around. The actual list I put together was merely an example.

Now then, let's look at your list.

HAND TO HAND

Not including characters like Prometheus,Karate Kid and Batman one million.

Characters based on feats and consistency.

Tier 1

• Saar the Ageless one
• Sensei

Tier 2

• Cassandra Cain
• Lady Shiva
• Batman
• Connor Hawke
• Silver Monkey
• Bronze Tiger
• Wrath(both)

Tier 3

• Bane
• Black Canary
• King Snake
• Deathstroke
• Dick Grayson
• Jean Paul Valley
• Constantine Drakon

Tier 4

• Kg Beast
• Jason Todd
• Ra's al Ghul
• Catman
• Wildcat

Characters based on hyperbole,limited or inconsistent feats(in the range between Batman and Bronze Tiger)

• Kobra
• David Cain
• White Canary
• Azrael(Micheal Lane)
• Tommy Jagger
• Archer Braun

Unsure of where to place Katana,Judomasters',I-Ching,O-Sensei and Richard Dragon.

To start, I've taken the liberty of reformatting your list to have bullets instead of numbers. By including individual numbers you miss the entire point of the "tier" ranking. The whole reason for tiers is to track who is competitive with each other without making any sort of claim that a character is definitively better or worse than those immediately around them, which is ridiculous, especially considering situational variables and the influence of plot on the outcome of these fights.

You've got a good list here but the differences between our two approaches are obvious. Here are some of my concerns:

• By restricting your rankings to on-page feats, you're leaving off characters we are told--and that we have no reason to doubt--are incredibly skilled. This includes a good number of "old sage"-type characters, such as the recently introduced Ducra. We don't see her do, well, anything on the page, but Jason Todd assures us that she's in the highest tier of ability. Why not trust that? It'd be like watching Return of the Jedi and ranking Yoda at the bottom of the barrel because he lost his "duel" with R2-D2.
• Why leave off characters like Batman One Million and Karate Kid but then include a pseudo-tier (pinned directly between two characters mid-tier I might add) for characters based on hyperbole? If you're already including hyperbolic charactes, couldn't you just have more such tiers?
• You have a lot of tiers and they all seem to really high in skill (not even including the Shiva-trained Tim Drake?). It's not necessarily a bad thing to be more granular in your rankings (I went very open with only 3 tiers), but again I feel like you're fighting against the whole point of a tiered system by being so specific.
• Your tiers also don't grow in size as they go down. That strikes me as unusual. I would think that you'd have very limited elite circles with expanding membership as you go wider. I even left my last tier open ended, whereas you seem to dismiss unmentioned characters as unimportant.
• You don't include or seem to have any notation for those on your list with superpowers (e.g., Bane, Braun). I would think that'd be important. How else do you handle characters like Midnighter and Black Canary? Do you just leave them off?
• I'm not sure Batman should be on such a high tier. He's not meant to be a win-on-combat-alone style character. He struggles to beat Shiva. He's outfought by enemies even though he manages to be ultimately victorious. Remember, if Batman can handedly defeat all these other characters then they're not a credible threat to him and are therefore useless as villains. He almost has to be the underdog. I think this is a clear result of looking at on-screen feats instead of in-continuity rankings. You wind up with a glut of examples of the protagonist being victorious over everyone else, ignoring the fact that it was supposed to be hard and that he earned those victories as often as not with cleverness and guile, not through direct martial prowess.

Bottom line, your list isn't bad, but it's definitely taking a very different approach from what I was going for. You're focused on on-page feats instead of in-continuity rankings, and you seem to be looking to do individual power rankings, not a true tier system.

@fodigg: @entropy_aegis:

Is Bane really that great of a fighter? I know he is smart and strong but I always pictured him as a lower teir then Dick Grayson.

@DEGRAAF said:

@fodigg: @entropy_aegis:

Is Bane really that great of a fighter? I know he is smart and strong but I always pictured him as a lower teir then Dick Grayson.

I have him pegged at about Batman level. He's a credible threat, but then to break Batman's back he 1) used venom, and 2) used allies to wear him down first.

@DEGRAAF said:

@entropy_aegis:

never even heard of Nkv Demon

Russian agent.3 versions.@DEGRAAF said:

@fodigg: @entropy_aegis:

Is Bane really that great of a fighter? I know he is smart and strong but I always pictured him as a lower teir then Dick Grayson.

He's already beaten Grayson and used pure skill to it.

@fodigg said:

@entropy_aegis: Well keep in mind I wasn't putting that together based on serious study of scans, but rather a quick jotting down of where people go according to what we're told they're supposed to be in-continuity, something that doesn't always line up with what we get on the page (see Worf Effect, World's Expert on Getting Killed, and Make Way For The New Villains).

My primary goal was pushing the "tier"-style list over a nit-picky list of individual rankings, which leads to massive kvetching and QQing all around. The actual list I put together was merely an example.

Now then, let's look at your list.

HAND TO HAND

Not including characters like Prometheus,Karate Kid and Batman one million.

Characters based on feats and consistency.

Tier 1

• Saar the Ageless one
• Sensei

Tier 2

• Cassandra Cain
• Lady Shiva
• Batman
• Connor Hawke
• Silver Monkey
• Bronze Tiger
• Wrath(both)

Tier 3

• Bane
• Black Canary
• King Snake
• Deathstroke
• Dick Grayson
• Jean Paul Valley
• Constantine Drakon

Tier 4

• Kg Beast
• Jason Todd
• Ra's al Ghul
• Catman
• Wildcat

Characters based on hyperbole,limited or inconsistent feats(in the range between Batman and Bronze Tiger)

• Kobra
• David Cain
• White Canary
• Azrael(Micheal Lane)
• Tommy Jagger
• Archer Braun

Unsure of where to place Katana,Judomasters',I-Ching,O-Sensei and Richard Dragon.

To start, I've taken the liberty of reformatting your list to have bullets instead of numbers. By including individual numbers you miss the entire point of the "tier" ranking. The whole reason for tiers is to track who is competitive with each other without making any sort of claim that a character is definitively better or worse than those immediately around them, which is ridiculous, especially considering situational variables and the influence of plot on the outcome of these fights.

You've got a good list here but the differences between our two approaches are obvious. Here are some of my concerns:

• By restricting your rankings to on-page feats, you're leaving off characters we are told--and that we have no reason to doubt--are incredibly skilled. This includes a good number of "old sage"-type characters, such as the recently introduced Ducra. We don't see her do, well, anything on the page, but Jason Todd assures us that she's in the highest tier of ability. Why not trust that? It'd be like watching Return of the Jedi and ranking Yoda at the bottom of the barrel because he lost his "duel" with R2-D2.
• Why leave off characters like Batman One Million and Karate Kid but then include a pseudo-tier (pinned directly between two characters mid-tier I might add) for characters based on hyperbole? If you're already including hyperbolic charactes, couldn't you just have more such tiers?
• You have a lot of tiers and they all seem to really high in skill (not even including the Shiva-trained Tim Drake?). It's not necessarily a bad thing to be more granular in your rankings (I went very open with only 3 tiers), but again I feel like you're fighting against the whole point of a tiered system by being so specific.
• Your tiers also don't grow in size as they go down. That strikes me as unusual. I would think that you'd have very limited elite circles with expanding membership as you go wider. I even left my last tier open ended, whereas you seem to dismiss unmentioned characters as unimportant.
• You don't include or seem to have any notation for those on your list with superpowers (e.g., Bane, Braun). I would think that'd be important. How else do you handle characters like Midnighter and Black Canary? Do you just leave them off?
• I'm not sure Batman should be on such a high tier. He's not meant to be a win-on-combat-alone style character. He struggles to beat Shiva. He's outfought by enemies even though he manages to be ultimately victorious. Remember, if Batman can handedly defeat all these other characters then they're not a credible threat to him and are therefore useless as villains. He almost has to be the underdog. I think this is a clear result of looking at on-screen feats instead of in-continuity rankings. You wind up with a glut of examples of the protagonist being victorious over everyone else, ignoring the fact that it was supposed to be hard and that he earned those victories as often as not with cleverness and guile, not through direct martial prowess.

Bottom line, your list isn't bad, but it's definitely taking a very different approach from what I was going for. You're focused on on-page feats instead of in-continuity rankings, and you seem to be looking to do individual power rankings, not a true tier system.

Thanks for editing.But i only created the tier system (via edit) to illustrate GAPS,but yeah i agree that as a tier system it's flawed.Initially it was just numbers.

The reason i left out Ducra cause getting killed is her only feat,her student Jason has'nt exactly displayed great feats either,Vandal Savage has lived about 50000 years but he's rather lackluster.Same goes for Ra's al Ghul,there are many people better than him.Characters like Ducra will never end,they'll appear for one issue and then will be forgotten completly.Atleast a feat or 2 will tell us something.

KK and the future Batman are DQ'd for rather obvious reasons.

A Shiva trained Tim got his ass kicked by Bird(Bane's henchman),yes Bird outskilled him.He beat Tim with basically just one hand,he was talking to Bane on his cellphone while doing it.I guess Bird is elite now too.

Bane and Canary does'nt have superpowers(atleast not one's which can influence the outcome of a fair h2h matchup),Braun lost to Huntress without his telepathy.

I'm intentionally leaving out Wildstorm and DCNU(exluding the batfam)cause we have no idea what's canon and what's not.

Shiva is near the top,struggling to beat her is'nt a low showing especially since she has'nt beaten Batman either.

Where does it state that Jason knows more fighting styles than Bruce? All he did was train with a 3000 year old master of an unnamed martial art, like most of D.C's fighters, and supposedly went around the world to complete the training.....I'm sensing that Red Hood's is becoming an Iron Fist wannabe.

@entropy_aegis: Shiva has never beaten Bruce?

@DEGRAAF said:

@entropy_aegis: Shiva has never beaten Bruce?

No

jason fights dirty, he's not afraid to kick people in the groin like he did to night weak. jason fights with brute force and nightwing fights with grace

Tier 1

1)Saar the Ageless one

2)Sensei

 

Tier 2

3)Cassandra Cain

4)Lady Shiva

5)Batman

6)Connor Hawke

7)Silver Monkey

8)Bronze Tiger

9) Wrath(both)

 

Tier 3

10)Bane

11)Black Canary

12)King Snake

13)Deathstroke

14)Dick Grayson

15)Jean Paul Valley

16)Constantine Drakon

 

Tier 4

17)Kg Beast

18)Jason Todd

18)Ra's al Ghul

19)Catman

20)Wildcat

 

Characters based on hyperbole,limited or inconsistent feats(in the range between Batman and Bronze Tiger)

1)Kobra

2)David Cain

3)White Canary

4)Azrael(Micheal Lane)

5)Tommy Jagger

6) Archer Braun

Unsure of where to place Katana,Judomasters',I-Ching,O-Sensei and Richard Dragon.

O__o that's an incredibly impressive tier list. Can't see anything that I disagree with.

@Vance Astro said:

@entropy_aegis said:

Tier 1

1)Saar the Ageless one

2)Sensei

Tier 2

3)Cassandra Cain

4)Lady Shiva

5)Batman

6)Connor Hawke

7)Silver Monkey

8)Bronze Tiger

9) Wrath(both)

Tier 3

10)Bane

11)Black Canary

12)King Snake

13)Deathstroke

14)Dick Grayson

15)Jean Paul Valley

16)Constantine Drakon

Tier 4

17)Kg Beast

18)Jason Todd

18)Ra's al Ghul

19)Catman

20)Wildcat

Characters based on hyperbole,limited or inconsistent feats(in the range between Batman and Bronze Tiger)

1)Kobra

2)David Cain

3)White Canary

4)Azrael(Micheal Lane)

5)Tommy Jagger

6) Archer Braun

Unsure of where to place Katana,Judomasters',I-Ching,O-Sensei and Richard Dragon.

This is the only tier list I have ever agreed with.Accept I think King Snake should be moved down a tier.Also as far as where to place Katana,Judomaster,I-Ching,O-Sensei and Richard Dragon I don't know about the others but I think Dragon should at least be on Shiva's level.

I edited the list and removed Wildcat,i wanted to keep it to 20.King Snake is hard to tackle,he's killed people with a single nerve strike and he also did decently well against Silver Monkey and was fighting even with Kgbeast despite Beast's physical advantage.But he also got stomped by Batman lol.

@The Dark Huntress:

Thanks.

The problem with just looking at feats though is inconsistency and PIS/WIS.

I agree that ranking need to be a tier list rather than a numeric order as plot can determine who wins and loses in an unrealistic way.

Feats need to be consistent and practiced often (in other words, hardly ever retconned).

To see Todd, we need to compare him to Dick who is a tier below Bruce. All Robins except Damian are all in the same tier. While plot has Todd always losing to Dick, they both give each other a good fight, it's competitive, no one-punch. The reboot didn't really affect Jason any as it can be surmised that the training he received can be fit into the old continuity. We don't know how new the new continuity is until we get more about where Todd fits. Since the Batman family is left pretty much untouched, I'd wager that Grants Batman and Robin run is still 100% in continuity and Todd isn't as great as you think he is.