Bane VS Ultimate Captain America

I for one think the H2H fight might go either way. Just how strong is new 52 Bane Venom? Cap has shown consistent 5-9 ton feats.

Also I can see Cap easily pulling the Venom Tubes out for a win.

The Round 2 I will go with Cap all day. Spartan Shield > Battle Axe anyday. More so when Bane has few showings with the Axe and Cap has tons of showings with his Shield.

Ultimate Captain America takes this:

1. Bane's weakness is already exposed. There's TUBES STICKING OUT OF HIS HEAD. Ultimate Captain America doesn't have ANY weakness like this that can be exposed.

2. Bane gots NOTHING that Ultimate Captain America can't take. Ultimate Captain America has been shown to withstand:

- Herr Krauser, who is easily above a 10 tonner, holding a metal pipe with concrete bashed Ultimate Captain America multiple times with it even in the face.

-Ultimate Hulk punched Cap straight in the face once or twice.

-Abomination slammed his legs causing a small crater on concrete then threw him through a wall. Ultimate Cap just got up.

-Ultimate Red Skull hit him multiple times with a pipe in the head. Ultimate Red Skull is Cap's physical superior. Don't pull that BS card that he's a 60 frail old man, LOOK AT HIS BODY. What 60 year old has muscle tone like that? You have to be trying your hardest to low ball to say Ultimate Red Skull is a frail old man.

-Ultimate Nuke, another person that is Ultimate Captain America's physical superior had dual wielded hammers and striked Cap multiple times with them and Cap resisted.

I'm sure there is a lot more. But lets not forget that Ultimate Captain America also has a HEALING FACTOR. Fractured and broken bones in less than half a day, Gunshots heal within hours, knife wounds within minutes, he's immune to every disease known to man.

So what is Bane going to do that Captain America isn't either going to:

-Avoid

-Take head on without a problem

-Or heal from within a few minutes if not seconds?

Now this is much better,Ult Cap is definitely faster than Bane(despite Bane being listed as metahuman) I agree with that,as for removing the pipes,it's possible even likely but I dont believe it'll stop him.Batman had to find a counter toxin/antidote to counter the venom, it was also recently stated that he retains his abilities for a while even without venom(implied hours if not days) and he survived falling off a cliff(landing head first) after the venom had been neutralized.

I do however believe that Bane is stronger and also has superior durability/healing.Is the superior fighter as well(cause we are allowed to use pre-Flashpoint feats).

Cap's advantages include his speed,agility,shield and while Bane's stronger Cap can keep up with him.

IMO Bane wins because of his skill,nothing indicates that Nuke,Skull etc are more skilled than Bane.

Yeah I dont buy that he cant take hits from 100 tonners sorry,where's the Herr Krauser feat from? I also didn't call Skull frail,nor did I didn't call him weak either not sure where you're getting that from,I implied that he might be past his physical prime so that while he may have at one point been Steve's superior but the difference wasn't as great now(in the story) that's really it.

I addressed the tubes but I still dont see any evidence for Cap's skill.

It's kind of unfair to use Nuke and Skull as evidence due to a writing standpoint. These aren't facts but a speculation behind Frank Millar's writing and purpose.

1. It was their only appearance. We can't draw many conclusions from it for this reason.

2. Because it was their only appearance and they were set up as the main villains, of course from a writers stand point they have to introduce them as a threat to the whole plot arc. Therefore, to make up for the lack of showings, the introduction of a new villain is ALWAYS going to play out this way. They're going to beat our heroes or show us how serious they really are.

3. So building off of 1 and 2, you can say that Frank Millar was most likely letting them get the initial hand on Ultimate Captain America to ignite the story. We already know how he has set up Ultimate Captain America, so by doing this in the first issue of both arcs we have that big oh **** moment.

To me it comes down to this. We can argue about the stats and experience. All of them. Heck, this would span a few pages already quite honestly. But lets get to the main points here that can be addressed just ina few post.

Bane has his weakness exposed, the tubes in his head.

Captain America has a genuine healing factor. He had broken bones and fractures all over his body from his confrontation with Hulk at around midnight. He said they would heal by morning. When his body fought off the vampire virus, flashbacks of scientist describing his healing factor explained that gun shots healed in hours, knife wounds in minutes, and he is immune to all kinds of diseases.

These are two factors that give Ultimate Captain America the win already. We could argue about strength, speed, durability, experience. But before we even start those, it's undeniable that Bane has a exposed weakness and that Ultimate Captain America in addition to his durability has a healing factor that would really back him up here.

Those are two major advantages that Ultimate Captain America already has going into this debate before even debating about the physicals and experience.

First, here is the Herr lifting a 4 to 6 ton truck and throwing it at Hulk fast enough for the front of it to be smashed in.

This guy isn't that bad of a fighter himself. On top of his great strength, he has a CRAZY healing factor, healing from disembodiment within a few seconds or minutes. Now this would actually be a good time to showcase Cap's strength besides him taking beatings from this guy using a piece of hard concrete and metal hitting Cap multiple times.

Lets actually look at the fight in detail, notice the skill behind Ultimate Captain America. When Herr Kleiser (Sorry, it's Kleiser not Krauser) tries to kick Captain America in the groin area, Cap immediately uses that momentum instead to let Kleiser hit him in the though, swing around and get on his hands and get a leg lock around his head. I think that's a pretty advance showing of H2H right there, not just the normal punching and striking but taking a strike, using it's momentum to get you in a lock position of grappling.

@cadencev2 said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@enzeru: Firelord and Spider-Man are in an entirely different class though,Cap is a street level character and so is Red Skull,likewise Skull is trained and has the same physicals due to being Cap's son,might be superior but only slightly,it should also be taken in to account that he was far older than Cap seeing as he didn't spend most of his life on ice,so basically Cap got beaten by a guy in his 60's(and I saw absolutely no evidence that the serum prevents you from aging,slowly yes but not outright).

Sigh...

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First off this was a random fight were Red Skull knew all about Cap (Performance, stats) yet Cap knew nothing of Red Skull. So already in a real world fight Red Skull has a advantage.

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Red Skull was train since he was a baby to a grown adult to be Caps Superior in every way by the same government who train Cap in his short time of WW2! On top of this Caps kids was genetically superior in every stat! Then add to this Red Skull been honing his skill and experience of all things Terrorism for 60 years!

Your argument is lame. Of course Cap lost.

@shawnbaby said:

@entropy_aegis:

Option 4) Accept that all characters have high and low end showings and that we don't judge the fights solely off of the low end showings like you are doing right now.

Go ahead, open up your Batman PIS closet and throw in ABC logic....ABC logic gets no traction at all in the Battle Forum. All you will accomplish is to reveal exactly how biased you are.

There is nothing Low Showing about Red Skull. It was a accurate showing of a guy who beat Cap thanks to many variables. In a random fight, Red Skull would Skull**** Bane as well.

That's not really what I meant by Low Showings. What I meant was that he's intentionally Low-balling Cap. He's focusing only on a couple fights that Cap lost and completely ignoring every fight that he won because they don't fit his narrative of how the fight between Cap and Bane should go down.

@shawnbaby: Yes, he is using it as a low showing when actuality it was realistic showing.

I'd like to see how Bane is supposedly stronger than Cap though...the best strength feats I've seen Bane perform on his New 52 Venom are easily within Steve's Capabilities. From what I've seen...Bane is, at best, just on par with Steve.

He lifted a giant boulder and he leaped up a light house.

Yeah I know about those ones...They're decent feats but they are not outside Ultimate Cap's ability.

About how much would that boulder weigh around? 7 tons? It was pretty big.

Hard to say. It was pretty big. I never get too hung up on the exact weight...the creative team usually doesn't really worry about the math...they're mostly concerned with how it looks on the page and whether that conveys the right kind of image. Ultimate Cap has his own feats of strength though...

So then Boulder vs Tree which weighs more?

Ult Cap seemed to use his shield in front of his chest to brace most of it with a struggling face. IIRC Bane did his easier and lifted over his head IIRC.

@krauser99: @shawnbaby:

1. The shield did really nothing, it's actually harder to hold the tree the way cap is holding it. Look at the arm with the shield and where it is.

2. Cap actually had to stop the tree while in motion, because of the momentum, you could say initially or rather the instant he caught it it had exerted a force greater than its weight.

3. Finally, because Captain America is away from the center of gravity, it has a mechanical advantage on him. Imagine holding a heavy bar at the center vs the ends, or a wet mop at the end.

Those are my inputs on what happened there.

I think the shield on his chest did help and protect otherwise why use it. And used his shield chest to help brace it and hold it. I agree though his did fall but overall Banes looks more impressive also. Bane threw the boulder easy to where Batman was.

@krauser99:

Because the tree was falling, he was holding his shield and he had to act fast?

Regardless the shield isn't doing anything. If he couldn't handle the weight or initial force drop his spine would have gave out which it did not.

I don't understand in anyway how holding something that way is beneficial, it's just plain human anatomy we are talking about here. Ideally both hands should have been up like the time he grappled with spider-man.

He had to act fast but he did indeed used it. Either way even after the catch he seem like he's struggling by way of face expression.

Do not forget these 2 feats.

That alone is close to 8-9 tons of earth, concrete and car he is lifting with no problem. He was heavy lifting that whole day to find Spider Man.

Here he is matching Ultimate Spider Man with both going all out shoving match. You can tell they are going all out as Peter is drawn shaking (Struggling) along with Cap. Peter is a 9-10 toner by feats.

Can Bane match that?!

Pre AND post flashpoint Feats for Bane?

pretty sure he can out muscle Cap but maybe not haven't been keeping up with his New 52 incarnation at all

He's not struggling that much...He's still able to crack a bit of a joke there.

Spiderman lifting feats look very impressive. It's his face expression that shows it for Ult Cap. Ult Cap is strong for sure but I think strength edge goes to Bane.

Well lets say we ignore the strength lifting feats of Cap.

How about his Striking feats on putting Hulk down? Juggernaut down twice? Putting down War Machine? Beating down 3+ toners down while drugged?

Or how about his insane Durability list?

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1-3) Cap jumps through the Jet Wash of a Ballistic Missile, plants grenades that blow in his face, gets hit by the shock wave of a Atomic Bomb, and then crashes into the icy sea. Still lived frozen till thawed.

4) 100+ toner Abomination crashes on Cap Legs and flings him through a building, no noticeable damage.

5-7) Cap tanks devastating blows from Blood Lusted Hulk. still giving interviews and on his feet.

8) Survives a ramming Iron Man Suit that craters the earth.

9-11) Blocks a hit from Blood Lusted Thor, flew at super speeds through a buildings side, and finally loses enough momentum to crash into wall. He is fine.

One of the best things about Ultimate Cap is his Minor Healing Factor.

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1-2) Heals faster than Bruce Banner calculated. This was after being on Ice for 50+ years.

3) After a brutal beating from Hulk, Cap was still giving interviews.

4) Caps healing factor as per WW2 Scientist. He even cured Vampirism with his Healing Factor. Nerd Hulks Healing Factor could not.

Cap also likes to free fall from Helicopters, planes, and buildings with no fear or injury.

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1) Free Falls from Plane.

2) Free Falls from Skyscraper.

Or Speed? Can Bane keep up?

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1) Cap dodges computer targeting AK-47 with no Shield.

2) Cap dodges bullets from Military.

3-5) Reacts and Blocks electricity attacks. He does this again for a Silver Herald.

6) Bullets dodging from 360 degrees.

7) Cap actually reacts and moves faster than the Bullet Tranqs from Hawkeye's guns! Clint clearly fires first and Cap reacts second. Great feat.

8-9) Cap Reacts to Silver Herald Electric attack after it was fired!

So lets say Bane outclasses Ultimate cap by the most insignificant margin. How does he compete with Caps Durability or Speed?

From reading the arguments made for both I think Bane wins on account of skill.

Ult Cap's durability is "insane". His super fast healing is incredible and he is more skilled then Bane IMO. Plus in a fight he does not mess around or hold back on being lethal.

He'll probably kick Bane in the nuts and then kick him when he's down. Ult Cap for the win IMO.

I highly doubt that. There is like nothing posted for Bane here and 90% of the posters agree Cap win.

If you think Bane wins that is fine. Just try not to act there was any debate on this thread as to why Bane wins when clearly there was none. Just Cap feats being posted and "Cap Wins" posts.

Unless you mean skill only. Then yeah, I agree he might be more skilled.

@cadencev2: I already conceded on the speed and agility front a long time ago,however Bane is more skilled if we allow his pre-flashpoint(which are allowed),he has a vast amount of h2h feats against a lot of DCs fighters even without venom,Ult Cap has nothing to show that he has even quarter of Bane's skill.

@slimj87d said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@slimj87d said:

Ultimate Captain America takes this:

1. Bane's weakness is already exposed. There's TUBES STICKING OUT OF HIS HEAD. Ultimate Captain America doesn't have ANY weakness like this that can be exposed.

2. Bane gots NOTHING that Ultimate Captain America can't take. Ultimate Captain America has been shown to withstand:

- Herr Krauser, who is easily above a 10 tonner, holding a metal pipe with concrete bashed Ultimate Captain America multiple times with it even in the face.

-Ultimate Hulk punched Cap straight in the face once or twice.

-Abomination slammed his legs causing a small crater on concrete then threw him through a wall. Ultimate Cap just got up.

-Ultimate Red Skull hit him multiple times with a pipe in the head. Ultimate Red Skull is Cap's physical superior. Don't pull that BS card that he's a 60 frail old man, LOOK AT HIS BODY. What 60 year old has muscle tone like that? You have to be trying your hardest to low ball to say Ultimate Red Skull is a frail old man.

-Ultimate Nuke, another person that is Ultimate Captain America's physical superior had dual wielded hammers and striked Cap multiple times with them and Cap resisted.

I'm sure there is a lot more. But lets not forget that Ultimate Captain America also has a HEALING FACTOR. Fractured and broken bones in less than half a day, Gunshots heal within hours, knife wounds within minutes, he's immune to every disease known to man.

So what is Bane going to do that Captain America isn't either going to:

-Avoid

-Take head on without a problem

-Or heal from within a few minutes if not seconds?

Yeah I dont buy that he cant take hits from 100 tonners sorry,where's the Herr Krauser feat from? I also didn't call Skull frail,nor did I didn't call him weak either not sure where you're getting that from,I implied that he might be past his physical prime so that while he may have at one point been Steve's superior but the difference wasn't as great now(in the story) that's really it.

I addressed the tubes but I still dont see any evidence for Cap's skill.

First, here is the Herr lifting a 4 to 6 ton truck and throwing it at Hulk fast enough for the front of it to be smashed in.

This guy isn't that bad of a fighter himself. On top of his great strength, he has a CRAZY healing factor, healing from disembodiment within a few seconds or minutes. Now this would actually be a good time to showcase Cap's strength besides him taking beatings from this guy using a piece of hard concrete and metal hitting Cap multiple times.

Lets actually look at the fight in detail, notice the skill behind Ultimate Captain America. When Herr Kleiser (Sorry, it's Kleiser not Krauser) tries to kick Captain America in the groin area, Cap immediately uses that momentum instead to let Kleiser hit him in the though, swing around and get on his hands and get a leg lock around his head. I think that's a pretty advance showing of H2H right there, not just the normal punching and striking but taking a strike, using it's momentum to get you in a lock position of grappling.

Cool feat Klieser is definitely over 5 tons based on that but I give Bane the advantage not due to the boulder feat(which is unquantifiable at best I would say 4 tons) but because of the lighthouse leap,that requires some serious leg strength,it's almost Spidey level.

Same goes for durability/healing,Bane survived falling off a cliff(after the venom had been neutralized) and landing head first,it's not there in the actual issue but in Detective #19 we saw a retelling of the same encounter and Bane was perfectly fine.

And please can we debate without dragging in Abomination and Hulk? if Cap is perfectly fine after getting struck by those guys then this clearly means that Red Skull is class 100.

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But since we insist on using such feats then sure why not,here Batman on venom vs Superman,this is the same arc where Bane fought Batman(just one issue previously),Bane had Scarecrow pump Batman with venom.Notice how Batman's punch sends Superman flying? notice how Superman was bleeding.

If Cap is on par with the Hulk and Abomination then Bane is on par with Superman.

@entropy_aegis:

,however Bane is more skilled if we allow his pre-flashpoint(which are allowed),he has a vast amount of h2h feats against a lot of DCs fighters even without venom,

Still, a good thing to probably point out is a lot of the Bat mythos is relatively unchanged in New 52 with everything just being kind of smushed together with a few tweaks here and there. So Bane's skill levels and his fights with Batman are still in continuity and should still be there until something official changes.

Unfortunately there's not much evidence to prove that Bane stories beyond Knightfall are in continuity.

The spirit of America is too much for venom

@entropy_aegis: If the relative Batman continuity is for the most part intact and until something is actually stated they aren't, I find little reason to say they aren't canon.

I can see your point,I dunno I just dont get the feeling.

@entropy_aegis: And likewise I can see where you're coming from. New reboot. Lots of things changed, some stayed the same. But I guess we'll have to wait and see and if DC says he isn't as skilled anymore or some of his fights don't count then they don't or if they do. And just by how the state of the Bat-verse was after, I'd say it points towards the latter rather than the former.

I dont believe DC will ever come out clean with what is in canon or not,they'll just keep making it up as they go along.As for Bane he'll be a brawler/brute every time he's on venom and if there comes a time when he doesn't have venom they'll depict him as a skilled fighter. Doubt he'll be both simultaneously,that would be too much for Batman.

@entropy_aegis: I can honestly seeing that happen. Kinda sucks if it goes out that way, but I'd hate to see Bane just reduced to a brawler.

I hate it too,but on the bright side Tomasi is writing him in Arkham War and his solo issue,I'm sure he'll be somewhat creative.

@entropy_aegis: I guess. I'd just hate if Shumacher's Bane comes to life. At least new 52 is still smart, but if they completely take away his h2h ability I'd be sort of ticked. But I can at least see him being a brawler on venom and good in h2h off of it based on the reason you said and I'd have not much of a problem with it. I'm a Wolverine fan after all. But seriously, I always felt like that was a core piece of the character. He kind of broke some stereotypes for characters of his size and stature who you would expect to be saying only 3 word sentences and just swinging his arms around, hoping it connects with something.

Bane.

I dont expect Schumacher Bane coming back anytime soon,his only living homage was last seen in the Arkham Games and they seem to be rectifying that too in Origins.Bob Harras called his upcoming Batman 23.4 Bane issue as the "quintessential" Bane story,while I dont give a crap about Harras it is drawn by Graham Nolan the guy who co created Bane and Tomasi who can be quite good so there's something to feel optimistic about. Speaking of Wolverine I hope this no healing rubbish doesn't spill over to Savage Wolverine which I'm actually enjoying right now.

This was a fun little read, eh.

Tee hee, Bane wins.

@entropy_aegis:

And please can we debate without dragging in Abomination and Hulk? if Cap is perfectly fine after getting struck by those guys then this clearly means that Red Skull is class 100.

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But since we insist on using such feats then sure why not,here Batman on venom vs Superman,this is the same arc where Bane fought Batman(just one issue previously),Bane had Scarecrow pump Batman with venom.Notice how Batman's punch sends Superman flying? notice how Superman was bleeding.

If Cap is on par with the Hulk and Abomination then Bane is on par with Superman.

First we all know Punching Super Man back is not a strength feat, thats physics. Second we all know Super Man is written pretty low in a Super Man vs Batman fight. Look at the tiny Kryptonite ring vs Superman in the Long Halloween. What a joke!

Cap Durability and Strength seem leagues IMO.

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Here Cap tanks the Rockets backwash (Force and Heat) then takes Grenades to the face as he blows it, and then tanks the Atomic Blast Shockwave into the ocean from a height couple thousand feat!

Thats durability!

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Cap physicly blocks a hit from Blood Lusted Thor and flies thousands of feat into and through a building. He is fine.

That is Durability.

Gets the beat down from a Blood Lusted Hulk who is EATING people. Punched in the face and everything!

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Cap is fine.

War Machine plows Cap through a bridge to save Nick Fury!

Cap gets back up from this.

Ultimate Cap does not have a Vibranium Shield, it is a Asgard Dwarven one. That means hits on his shields are not absorb. Meaning taking a hit from Power Princess here who is equal to Hyperion in strength is all Caps Stats.

Cap takes it in strides with his strength and durability.

If that was not enough, how about Thors hits!

Cap naturally tanks these hits as well from another 100+ toner!

That is Strength and durability. Still not convinced?!

We know Cap out does some guys in strength and durability.

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Cap vs Super Soldier Nazis.

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Cap vs Brotherhood of Mutants! Cap actually takes out Juggernaut, the one kicked through the wall, with a kick to his face in this.

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Cap vs Black Panther.

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Cap vs Juggernaut. Juggs trash Cap tlll Cap gets his Shield and KOs the 100 toner.

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Cap vs Assemble. A Machine with Thor, Caps, Hulk, and Giant Mans power. Assemble stomped Iceman and Rogue (who has Juggernauts powers) with ease. Good old Cap beats it with one move.

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Cap vs Avengers! He pretty much by himself beats the Avengers, however he wanted to be captured. This way he can get intel on where his son is and kill him with the Teleport Jet.

Is Bane Consistent with Caps feats like that!? I think not.

I never did understand this (K4TZ tried to explain it to me in Ultimate Cap vs Deathstroke) how New 52 has same feats as pre.

Example.

• Superman is way different in skill and age!
• Captain Cold is way different in origin and powers.
• Batman is nowhere near what he was in knowledge and skill or feats vs Super Humans.

I mean really, there is no indication at all half the time of characters remaining the same. I just do not get where it is obviously not treated like the reboot it is? What am I missing?

Either way this plays no role in this fight, were specifically using feats from both eras, but why do people try to justify the reboot with feats from Pre 52 when clearly there is so many changes, it is inconsistent as all get out with Pre 52?

captain america

@entropy_aegis:

Who knows why he can take so much damage, especially from 100 tonners. It could be his healing factor (which I kind of doubt) or he can just take a lot of damage (which I'm leaning more towards because he receives tons of damage and gets straight up before we would see a healing factor come into play). But to be absolutely fair, lets not assume Hulk and Abomination actually hit them with full force as Hulk was talking to Captain America and Abomination wasn't trying to kill Steve either but rather hand him over to Abdul. But in almost every showing he has some pretty crazy durability feats. It takes a lot to knock him out and he can take a lot with it.

Here's Cap being on tranqs and getting knocked straight into stone again. But he gets right up. These guys with the flying suits are actually stronger than Bane just to let you know. They went toe to toe with people that stole their tech. They lost because they were severely outnumbered. So you can see these guys are quite strong, they can fly through jets and together they can push over large structures.

And of course he has a healing factor, so if Bane manages to land a hit on Cap's face, backing away just for a few seconds will give him probably a full recovery.

I definitely think Cap can take anything that Bane throws at him. I think he could definitely either just beat the hell out of Bane or disconnect his power source.

@slimj87d: But to be absolutely fair, lets not assume Hulk and Abomination actually hit them with full force as Hulk was talking to Captain America and Abomination wasn't trying to kill Steve either but rather hand him over to Abdul. But in almost every showing he has some pretty crazy durability feats. It takes a lot to knock him out and he can take a lot with it.

I disagree. Look at my above post. Cap has tanks hits from Blood Lusted Thor, Blood Lusted Zarda (who had murdered dozens of people for the hell of it), Warmachine who slam Cap through a bridge, Juggernaut (who never holds back), Blood Lusted Hulk (Hulk does not hold back ever in any showing, why just Cap?), as well a epic atomic bomb feat where Cap has 4 major durability feats in 3 pages!

Cap is consistent.

I'm trying to work my way up to that with him. I'm alluding to every story arc, Cap does something majorly that requires lots of durability.

Cap wins 9/10 by simply being better in just about everything.

@entropy_aegis: @cadencev2: ANyways, I have to go to Alabama for work in a few hours. I'll be busy this whole week I'm just going to retire from this debate.