The Geoff Johns and Brian Azzarello Wonder Woman Dispute

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#51 Posted by cloudzackvincent (1025 posts) - - Show Bio

@Power_Guy said:

@cloudzackvincent said:

@Power_Guy: it is still selling around 10 k units more than 2011 and around 20k units more than 2010..so while not a grand success, it is far from a failure. and my post was directed to the posts which claims Azzarello's run is selling less than pre new 52. and yes Simone's and Rucka's run sold well too.... but their unit sells are around the same and the detractors of the New 52 WW considers them grand successes, so why should Azzarello's run be considered a failure.

I don't think it's a failure at all but I don't think it's "Wonder Woman" either. I was merely trying to point out that Azzarello is not the only writer who has pulled in these types of numbers on Wonder Woman.

fair enough, while i agree that there has been drastic changes in her mythos... i like the run..but to each his own.

#52 Posted by Press Oblivion (1658 posts) - - Show Bio

@cloudzackvincent said:

fair enough, while i agree that there has been drastic changes in her mythos... i like the run..but to each his own.

And there it is. We can go on and on about our personal opinions but nothing will ever trump this irrefutable fact.

#53 Posted by Press Oblivion (1658 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior said:

@Press Oblivion: the lasso won't help her from being a flop

I'm not saying anything about her flopping or not I'm expressing a personal desire to see the elimination of this one aspect of her character. She's not a flop at this point and this is the direction that you're getting. It's a clean start with unencumbered direction. It's really everything you've been talking about . . . won't you embrace it?

#54 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@Press Oblivion: her sales are a flop,i already told you why she can't sell,and why they change her everytime,so we better get use to the swords,it's not her,it's DC.

#55 Posted by Press Oblivion (1658 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't really have a choice do I? Be prepared for more of those changes and inconsistencies if Azzarello ever leaves the book. As this forum demonstrates, with Wonder Woman fans clearly divided on all sorts of aspects of the character, DC will not know what to do when Azzarello departs.

Selling between 40k & 50k units is not a flop (I think ti's actually grounds to start another WW title), and if it was, it's not the fault of DC it's the Comic Collecting Community that is to blame because they don't love Wonder Woman, as I have already told you.

#56 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

As a new reader to Wonder Woman's solo, it was a bit jarring to discover Wonder Woman's origins changing so dramatically and the way things were left with Hephaestus and the male offspring of the Amazons I think was done poorly. Having said that, I am really enjoying the series and don't pick up the Justice League which is why having her hook up with Superman is confusing. It's almost like an alternate universe -- reading these threads and discovering this development in another book doesn't make any sense and one of my biggest peeves in comics is inconsistency between writers when dealing with characters in different books.

I have decided to pick up JL now -- I did flip through the books that dealt with Wonder Woman and Superman but clearly I need more than just that to compare Johns' interpretation of Wonder Woman to Azzarello. Based on this thread, I am going to keep my expectations low.

#57 Edited by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@Power_Guy: @Power_Guy said:

@cloudzackvincent said:

@Power_Guy: it is still selling around 10 k units more than 2011 and around 20k units more than 2010..so while not a grand success, it is far from a failure. and my post was directed to the posts which claims Azzarello's run is selling less than pre new 52. and yes Simone's and Rucka's run sold well too.... but their unit sells are around the same and the detractors of the New 52 WW considers them grand successes, so why should Azzarello's run be considered a failure.

I don't think it's a failure at all but I don't think it's "Wonder Woman" either. I was merely trying to point out that Azzarello is not the only writer who has pulled in these types of numbers on Wonder Woman.

The detractors of Azzerrelo, i.e. me consider Rucka, Azzerrelo and Simone´s runs commercial failures, however the difference is Azz has had much more of a marketting push with this whole New 52 angle than Rucka or Simone did on their run. Meaning if Simone and Rucka sold the same they did pretty well in comparrison to Azzerrelo, whose been given and infinite amount more advertising. However, Azzerrelo´s for me may be a critical success to non wonder woman fans who have just started reading wonder woman, but it certainly isn´t to old WW fans. Which again makes it a failure, in that its capturing new audiences at the expense of the old. Rucka at least was succesful in capturing a new and old audience alike. Simone´s the circle still sells well now considering.

@lykopis: @gokuwarrior: @Press Oblivion:

@lykopis said:

As a new reader to Wonder Woman's solo, it was a bit jarring to discover Wonder Woman's origins changing so dramatically and the way things were left with Hephaestus and the male offspring of the Amazons I think was done poorly. Having said that, I am really enjoying the series and don't pick up the Justice League which is why having her hook up with Superman is confusing. It's almost like an alternate universe -- reading these threads and discovering this development in another book doesn't make any sense and one of my biggest peeves in comics is inconsistency between writers when dealing with characters in different books.

I have decided to pick up JL now -- I did flip through the books that dealt with Wonder Woman and Superman but clearly I need more than just that to compare Johns' interpretation of Wonder Woman to Azzarello. Based on this thread, I am going to keep my expectations low.

The best thing about Geoff Johns run is Shazam. I really like what he´s doing there. However, his WW is also a watered down version of her old self. However I respect that he hasn´t completely dismantled her. He know she has to be part of the JLA, but perhaps she´s no his favorite character; I think he´s also limited in what he can do with her considering the radical departure from what we´ve known her to be in her solo publication.

#58 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26:

Fair enough --- I do find that most people who express dissatisfaction with the new Wonder Woman are mostly those who are long time fans. Not to say there aren't those who are enjoying me but I can understand considering how big a departure the character's origins has taken. As a myth enthusiast, I appreciate the attempt to bring Wonder Woman inline in terms of familiar stories along Greek Mythology, its not as though she was a real character from eons ago. I was content enough with whatever her origins were before.

Of course, this is all said by a new fan who really likes the stronger, more visceral Diana.

#59 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@jphulk26:

Of course, this is all said by a new fan who really likes the stronger, more visceral Diana.

Just to clarify you are saying she´s stronger and more visceral now? In the new 52? I also am not a very old fan. In fact I´ve only started reading her this year after seeing the animated film. Since I tried to get some graphic novels based on the character and Blood was I think the 3rd one I read; either 3rd or fourth, I read JMS as well, which was also a complete mess, But not as bad as the current run.

Anyway I digress, the point is it took me quite alot of time to get to some good WW runs and stories, and I was introduced to WW: Blood quite early on, when I didn´t have a huge attachment to the character, and I still thought, what is this? this is no way as good as the animated film. I know a good story when I read it and I have to say I just thought Azz´s WW was full of plot holes and really took away anything special about the characters.

I finally came to read Gail Simone´s The Circle and Rucka and Perez´s runs on WW, and that was when I was fully hooked. Her characterization in that is even better than animated film. I really liked it. As an avid Superhero fan I was baffled, cause any time I´ve ever wanted to find out about a superhero , whether it was Superman, The Hulk, Daredevil or Punisher, I could always find numerous graphic novels, and interesting takes on their mythology. Why was I finding it so hard to get some reading material on WW consistent with what impressed me in the animated movie? why was it so difficult I asked, and why were they changing her origin so radically and in such an ugly way, and I came to the conclusion its cause she´s a woman. I cannot abide by or support that blatant level of sexism when it comes to the character. I love DC, but in 75 years they´ve published only one Graphic Novel "The Heikita" of one of their most iconic creations. They´ve constantly treated her like she´s an embarrasment or blemish to the company, and have frequently retconned her origin or powers, cause they don´t get the idea. Even when good writers have offered to write graphics on her, they refused it or ended up not publishing them. Then the 2 last writers on the book, JMS and Azz have admitted to not liking nor reading the character. So why give them the job. You can tell that everything about WW, is something that Azz finds silly, he has no love for the character, he only has love for his invention that he calls WW. That´s who he refers to when he call her "my girl" cause as I said he didn´t read any of her comics before. So that´s my position.

By the by Greek Mythology, the Gods and their dynastic drama, and the creatures of myth have always played a major part in WW comics. That is not an Azzerrelo innovation.

#60 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

Ah, I see now where you stand. Thank you for the information as well -- I appreciate learning not just how others view Wonder Woman, but also in how they came about to like the character.Of course, this is all said by a new fan who really likes the stronger, more visceral Diana.

Just to clarify you are saying she´s stronger and more visceral now? In the new 52?

From what little I have read of her before and the general sense of the character in my eyes. To give you a bit of history on my end, I am a Marvel fan mostly and have never followed contemporary storylines of any DC character. When I thought of Wonder Woman, I thought of an extremely powerful superhero, but one that was geared towards highly principled takes of love and mercy and truth. Opening up and reading the new52, I was introduced to a character who could get frustrated and reactive rather than introspective and measured in her responses to situations. Not what I viewed Wonder Woman to be.

As a writer, I am sure Gail Simone did a wonderful job with her interpretation of the character but again, of this I remain ignorant although I plan on changing that when I get more time. It's disheartening to learn there isn't much in terms of graphic novels for Wonder Woman -- even as a mostly Marvel-focused comic fan I know she deserves much more attention is respect.

Why was I finding it so hard to get some reading material on WW consistent with what impressed me in the animated movie? why was it so difficult I asked, and why were they changing her origin so radically and in such an ugly way, and I came to the conclusion its cause she´s a woman. I cannot abide by or support that blatant level of sexism when it comes to the character. I love DC, but in 75 years they´ve published only one Graphic Novel "The Heikita" of one of their most iconic creations. They´ve constantly treated her like she´s an embarrasment or blemish to the company, and have frequently retconned her origin or powers, cause they don´t get the idea. Even when good writers have offered to write graphics on her, they refused it or ended up not publishing them.

Unfortunately, that seems to be on-going problem with both large publishing houses. That noted artists both visual and literal have offered to take on arguably the most recognizable female comic character and not have their takes come to fruition is disappointing.

Then the 2 last writers on the book, JMS and Azz have admitted to not liking nor reading the character. So why give them the job. You can tell that everything about WW, is something that Azz finds silly, he has no love for the character, he only has love for his invention that he calls WW. That´s who he refers to when he call her "my girl" cause as I said he didn´t read any of her comics before. So that´s my position.

This I did not know either. I had assumed both have read extensively on the character, specifically because of the iconic status of Wonder Woman. Food for thought on my end.

By the by Greek Mythology, the Gods and their dynastic drama, and the creatures of myth have always played a major part in WW comics. That is not an Azzerrelo innovation.

This I knew, but Azzarello's application of Greek Mythology in this new Wonder Woman I do not enjoy. I won't get into the abrupt and cavalier summation of the males born to Amazons and I would always expect Greek Mythology to play a big part of Wonder Woman's origins but having her be the daughter of Zeus can only be a ploy in which the writer assumed would give the character more gravitas. Which is ridiculous -- this is Wonder Woman. There are many facet to the character I admire, and one of them was the lack of paternal lineage. I attempted to ignore that part of her new origins but it's impossible since almost every issue in some way refers to her "father" through discussing her half'-sisters - half-brothers, etc, ad nauseum.

Again, I do not have the extensive knowledge you clearly have about the character -- on the surface, I do like seeing Diana more 'warrior-like" but having said that, I have aspects of Azzerello's representation of her that don't sit well with me.

He referred to her as "his girl"? Annoying doesn't quite describe my reaction to that.

Thank you.

#61 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

ruka run was successful,with more marketing it could have been even more successful.

#62 Posted by RedheadedAtrocitus (6836 posts) - - Show Bio

No different than how Morrison handles Batman Incorporated within the confines of the New 52 I say. Azzarello's WW is great, just like Johns'.

#63 Posted by Aiden Cross (15526 posts) - - Show Bio

I've never really liked Wonder Woman that much before the New 52 but i love this run, the design on the gods aren't my favourite incarnations but Wonder Woman itself i find amazing :)

#64 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@jphulk26 said:

Ah, I see now where you stand. Thank you for the information as well -- I appreciate learning not just how others view Wonder Woman, but also in how they came about to like the character.Of course, this is all said by a new fan who really likes the stronger, more visceral Diana.

Just to clarify you are saying she´s stronger and more visceral now? In the new 52?

From what little I have read of her before and the general sense of the character in my eyes. To give you a bit of history on my end, I am a Marvel fan mostly and have never followed contemporary storylines of any DC character. When I thought of Wonder Woman, I thought of an extremely powerful superhero, but one that was geared towards highly principled takes of love and mercy and truth. Opening up and reading the new52, I was introduced to a character who could get frustrated and reactive rather than introspective and measured in her responses to situations. Not what I viewed Wonder Woman to be.

As a writer, I am sure Gail Simone did a wonderful job with her interpretation of the character but again, of this I remain ignorant although I plan on changing that when I get more time. It's disheartening to learn there isn't much in terms of graphic novels for Wonder Woman -- even as a mostly Marvel-focused comic fan I know she deserves much more attention is respect.

Why was I finding it so hard to get some reading material on WW consistent with what impressed me in the animated movie? why was it so difficult I asked, and why were they changing her origin so radically and in such an ugly way, and I came to the conclusion its cause she´s a woman. I cannot abide by or support that blatant level of sexism when it comes to the character. I love DC, but in 75 years they´ve published only one Graphic Novel "The Heikita" of one of their most iconic creations. They´ve constantly treated her like she´s an embarrasment or blemish to the company, and have frequently retconned her origin or powers, cause they don´t get the idea. Even when good writers have offered to write graphics on her, they refused it or ended up not publishing them.

Unfortunately, that seems to be on-going problem with both large publishing houses. That noted artists both visual and literal have offered to take on arguably the most recognizable female comic character and not have their takes come to fruition is disappointing.

Then the 2 last writers on the book, JMS and Azz have admitted to not liking nor reading the character. So why give them the job. You can tell that everything about WW, is something that Azz finds silly, he has no love for the character, he only has love for his invention that he calls WW. That´s who he refers to when he call her "my girl" cause as I said he didn´t read any of her comics before. So that´s my position.

This I did not know either. I had assumed both have read extensively on the character, specifically because of the iconic status of Wonder Woman. Food for thought on my end.

By the by Greek Mythology, the Gods and their dynastic drama, and the creatures of myth have always played a major part in WW comics. That is not an Azzerrelo innovation.

This I knew, but Azzarello's application of Greek Mythology in this new Wonder Woman I do not enjoy. I won't get into the abrupt and cavalier summation of the males born to Amazons and I would always expect Greek Mythology to play a big part of Wonder Woman's origins but having her be the daughter of Zeus can only be a ploy in which the writer assumed would give the character more gravitas. Which is ridiculous -- this is Wonder Woman. There are many facet to the character I admire, and one of them was the lack of paternal lineage. I attempted to ignore that part of her new origins but it's impossible since almost every issue in some way refers to her "father" through discussing her half'-sisters - half-brothers, etc, ad nauseum.

Again, I do not have the extensive knowledge you clearly have about the character -- on the surface, I do like seeing Diana more 'warrior-like" but having said that, I have aspects of Azzerello's representation of her that don't sit well with me.

He referred to her as "his girl"? Annoying doesn't quite describe my reaction to that.

Thank you.

Thanks for your reply.

I think personally, Azzerrelo is a really good writer, but he´s tackling the wrong material. Material he just doesn´t get. It´s OK WW isn´t for everyone, but at this time I really think she needs a writer who cares for the history of the character, and can bring out some elements of her mythology that haven´t been addressed. Also a writer that can give us our generations WW. I think thats the fun of comic stories, people want to see how you can update these silly children stories from the 40s and how you can adapt them to work for our time, retell the story but in the language of our generation. Mark Waid did that perfectly for Superman; in superman Birthright. I can´t see why its so hard for WW.

In your reply you mentioned that you always thought of WW as "When I thought of Wonder Woman, I thought of an extremely powerful superhero, but one that was geared towards highly principled takes of love and mercy and truth." If your interested, you get more of this in Perez´s run, which he does well. And then there are some other writers I didn´t bother with cause they just sounded so hokey.

However, in Rucka´s run especially, he is able to balance that wisdom and sense of inherent almost regal dignity with a pretty bad ass character. I mean, yeah she doesn´t go around starting fights or breaking legs like Batman, but she won´t shy a way from a fight either, and she´ll give you a good going over in style, and if you´re evil she will do what ever it takes to protect the innocent, even kill. But Rucka made it all very consistent with her character and it grew quite organically from what we know of The Amazons and their principles. She also was a very emotional, head strong and fearsome warrior; he really balanced everything nicely. Simone went and did something that hadn´t been done much with the character either, she gave her a bit of a sense of humor, and along with Rucka really brought out the femininity in her. It wasn´t like reading a mans dialogue and actions dressed up in female form, like so many female badasses or action heroes are these days. That was what I found really cool about it, and they gave her a character that really made her stand out from Superman and Batman, she was really her own woman.

If you want to get any earlier WW: (all available in DC online digital comics for quite cheap)

I would highly suggest the "The Heikita" Rucka, "Down To Earth" Rucka

"The Circle" Gail Simone, which is excellent, and introduces I think WW best ever villain.

"Eyes Of The Gorgan" Rucka

"War Killer" Simone.

They are really good stories and I highly recommend them, from what you´ve said, especially The Circle (as long as talking gorillas don´t freak you out ;) )and Eyes Of The Gorgan. You´ll love both.

Have you seen the animated feature at all? I´m guessing you have.

#65 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

There is no dispute bec the brains of Azzarello and Johns live in separate universes.

#66 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26:

Thank you for all your suggestions -- I've made note of them all. :)

And yes, I have seen the animated movie late last summer. Like most comic characters, I instantly expect an entirely different character than what is depicted in comics. With JLA and WW books, this is the first time I have truly come across a character presented so differently on panel. I don't know if this is common with other DC series (in terms of Batman and Superman) because I don't follow those characters.

#67 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: Nowhere near as common. Batman and Superman are two of my favorite characters, and if you want to get cool Batman or Superman comics your in luck, cause the list is endless. There´s just loads of re-writes of their origin, each showing a different side of them, loads of events, loads of more mature takes on the character. I just wish DC would get off their ass and do this for Th Flash and Martian Manhunter. I really think people will eventually get bored of Superman and Batman, especially if they reboot their origin in movies every few years. Eventually people will get sick of it, thats why they have to start building the rest of their roster. Its really imperative at this point, if they are to stay competitive. As stated, one of their top 3 characters, 75 years, one stand alone graphic novel, no major events where her villain was the central antagonist, and it gets no better with the rest Flash or Martian Manhunter, in fact it gets worse.

#68 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26: yes,ruka run was successful,with more marketing it could have been even more successful.

#69 Posted by JamesKM716 (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm liking them both.

#70 Posted by jonesy10 (36 posts) - - Show Bio

Rucka's run on Wonder Woman is the only complete one that I've read and it remains my favorite. I'm more into Azzarrello's arc for the Cliff Chiang's amazing artwork. I've always considered Azzarrello to be a sexist creator (mostly due to the noir influenced and scantily clad women who populate his stories)

For Wonder Woman, he has let her remain a heroic, if somewhat naive, character. I actually like the fact that she isn't always right and makes mistakes. That said, the supporting cast is full of reprehensible and selfish "gods". Hera is a one note spurned woman and Zola is basically considered a low class slut. The Amazons were turned to stone, so we're left with these modern interpretations of deities who seem to be crawling out of the woodworks.

Over one year now, and the first mystery, the location of Zeus, remains unsolved and now Zola's baby is missing as well. The pacing is far too slow and I think Azzarrello is more interested in introducing these characters than solving any of the mysteries he has started

#71 Posted by Wboy (442 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm liking both but Geoff is catching more attention for me focusing on her action, powers, and making her look like a female Superman which is pretty cool. Her characterization seems much more charismatic to me to, as young brash bold a bit naive and still learning in man's world.

Azzarello honestly feels like it's not even moving anywhere, becoming bit like a Sop Oprah, and WW's action side is getting no where as she's also portrayed almost like a flying street leveler. I was enjoying it at first but now I'm starting to become mind numbed.

#72 Posted by darkman61288 (783 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wboy: It is the making her look like a female Superman is what I hate about Johns' run. That said I like Azzies run better. Yes the Zola thing is running to long but Diana's personality is much better.

#73 Posted by 4_color_image (220 posts) - - Show Bio

I love Azz's take on Diana... As an ElseWorld story. It seems DC is slowly reversing some of the 'New 52' such as Beast Boy going green, Power Girl retuning to the boob window & Stormwatch soft-booting to the pre-52 version of the team. My hopes is that we discover much of Azz's run has all been the machinations of The Duke of Deception & we get the Golden/Silver/Bronze Age Amazons back, The Clay Origin, Donna & Arite plus the Raven Haired Polly back! I would like to see Diana keeping her new look though.

#74 Posted by kapitein_zeppos (338 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm still of the opinion that they took Wonder Woman in the wrong direction with this one. I do like the Greek Gods, though the dysfunctional family thing has been done to death. But the whole origin and back story doesn't sit right with me. I think they could have done so much more and update Wonder Woman for today and still retain the better elements of Marston and Perez. They could have laid a great foundation for an epic rogue's gallery and plant the seeds of stories for years to come.

Azz is a good writer, no doubt about it, but I think he got a bit too much Xena and Clash of the Titans in there for his own good.

I'm just waiting until Azz throws in the towel and they reboot the whole thing.

#75 Posted by Press Oblivion (1658 posts) - - Show Bio

I've been reading the beginning of the 1987 series and the blend and balance of God based story and traditional Superhero stuff is well done. Azz hasn't done that here in as many issues. I think that the series would be more better received if Azz had utilized this formula. .

#76 Posted by Muffin_Sangria (690 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't read JL yet so I can't comment of that but I have been pretty disappointed in her solo comic. Don't get me wrong it's a pretty good comic if you ignore that fact that it's supposed to be a Wonder Woman comic. The Worst things are the changing of her origin, and the new take on the Amazons, but that's not the only problem. They haven't drastically changed Wonder Woman herself but she kinda seems like a shell of her former self. I can't say her personality has changed because Azzarello hasn't really given her one yet.

#77 Posted by Muffin_Sangria (690 posts) - - Show Bio

I just started reading Justice League and I'd have to admit I actually like John's version of Wonder Woman more that who is in Azzarello's. Her personality is a bit different but so is Superman's so I don't mind too much. So far there hasn't been any reference to Themyscira so I'm going to assume that she is from the Bana-Mighdall Amazons it kinda makes more sense that way. I think if her next writer put a little more focus on her virtue of truth and add a few more dashes of feminism that I think she could be a great character.

#78 Posted by drgnx (3566 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't particularly like how anyone is written in Justice League...they are all shadows of their solos!

#79 Posted by LilBird (1 posts) - - Show Bio

I personally love Azzarello's run, but I can understand that it's not everyone's cup of tea.

Ideally, we could have both: a Wonder Woman title focussing on the mythology, and Sensation comics delving into the superhero part (if we can keep Sensation Comics WW-oriented, ofcourse).

Unfortunately it looks like the new WW creative team is gonna step away from the current theme. Given how well the current book was selling, I don't think that's such a good idea. I think it'd be smarter to launch a second title to give the other fans what they want, than to change the current title and risk losing these fans. Like I said, ideally speaking, with two titles we could make both happy, but then each title does need to stick to their role.

#80 Posted by fables87 (1085 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior: I recently gave up on the title. Mainly for what you point out. She has been reboot way too many times. I've read a lot of Wonder Woman and I sear she has more then 5 different origin stories by now. Once a new WW comic starts, they have the need to restart her again. Ever read the original stuff? A lot of the elements they had going DC some reason got rid off, like the women right issues. Also agree with you on anime. Image does a better job with females too. I personally think it's because animies/manga and Image don't really have a target audience.

#81 Posted by RustyRoy (13969 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

I don't particularly like how anyone is written in Justice League...they are all shadows of their solos!

#82 Posted by drgnx (3566 posts) - - Show Bio

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