Zoom vs Silver Surfer and Superman Prime

@CitizenBane:

(Wolverine effectively dying everytime his physical took high end trauma damage is not really dying when HE ALWAYS COMES BACK now is it? Healing factor is a lovely thing. Even when that storyline was wrapped up, didn't change a damn thing insofar as his healing is concerned.)

As to the predictable scans. Lol. Sure. I can comment on those.

WWHulk. Just about everything he ever did was plot driven. Taking on the entire Marvel U. PIS. Kind of like Batman taking on Superman. Rubbish indeed. You like cherry picking PIS moments or low end crap from characters to prove your point. WWHulk was Marvel's big event. Sure he made a splash - Surfer jobbed to see that he did.

The other Hulk pic ... really? Hulk KO's him? Barely even moves the Surfer. Surfer states his heart feels naught save pity and he cannnot even be moved or harmed by a meteor swarm. Which is why Hulk's strongest blows do not even move him from the spot let alone KO him. Why you would post that as though it supports your claim is very strange. Thank you though.

Thor KO'ing the Silver Surfer is largely held as his highest end feat (or among them) and is the heart of all arguments seeing him defeat Superman and the like. Notice even in the vacuum of space Surfer goes flying. Into a planet and the like ... so your comment to the contrary is completely invalidated right there. Many claim this to be another PIS moment for Surfer. But whatever, I see no real shame in that loss even though it does indeed border on PIS.

And you are completely showing how inept your logic is when drawling on about travel speed and reaction speed. Are you seriously trying to sell the idea that Surfer does not react fast when he moves thousands of light years in a second? Think about that for moment ... I'll let it all sink in.

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@CitizenBane:

(Wolverine effectively dying everytime his physical took high end trauma damage is not really dying when HE ALWAYS COMES BACK now is it? Healing factor is a lovely thing. Even when that storyline was wrapped up, didn't change a damn thing insofar as his healing is concerned.)

As to the predictable scans. Lol. Sure. I can comment on those.

WWHulk. Just about everything he ever did was plot driven. Taking on the entire Marvel U. PIS. Kind of like Batman taking on Superman. Rubbish indeed. You like cherry picking PIS moments or low end crap from characters to prove your point. WWHulk was Marvel's big event. Sure he made a splash - Surfer jobbed to see that he did.

The other Hulk pic ... really? Hulk KO's him? Barely even moves the Surfer. Surfer states his heart feels naught save pity and he cannnot even be moved or harmed by a meteor swarm. Which is why Hulk's strongest blows do not even move him from the spot let alone KO him. Why you would post that as though it supports your claim is very strange. Thank you though.

Thor KO'ing the Silver Surfer is largely held as his highest end feat (or among them) and is the heart of all arguments seeing him defeat Superman and the like. Notice even in the vacuum of space Surfer goes flying. Into a planet and the like ... so your comment to the contrary is completely invalidated right there. Many claim this to be another PIS moment for Surfer. But whatever, I see no real shame in that loss even though it does indeed border on PIS.

And you are completely showing how inept your logic is when drawling on about travel speed and reaction speed. Are you seriously trying to sell the idea that Surfer does not react fast when he moves thousands of light years in a second? Think about that for moment ... I'll let it all sink in.

He specifically told Cannonball that he was counting on his healing factor to resurrect him after Deathstrike killed him. Which means she killed him. That is all. Have you even read the story or are you talking out of your ass, as usual?

That's not World War Hulk. That was Planet Hulk. That took place roughly two years before World War Hulk. Again, have you even read the story or are you just talking out of your ass, as usual?

Where did I say Hulk KO'd him? I specifically said he staggered him. Can you read? You want Hulk knocking Surfer off the spot? Here:

I suppose these are PIS, too? Since the only argument you have is "PIS!"?

Sure. Thor KO'ing Surfer is PIS. Bill KO'ing Surfer is PIS. Hulk KO'ing Surfer is PIS. Starting to see a pattern here? Laughable.

How daft do you have to be to not grasp that travel speed and reaction speed are not the same thing? How hard can it possibly be to understand that moving in a straight line is travel speed? Green Lanterns employ this travel/reaction dichotomy on a regular basis.

@Silver2467:

I've heard of the WWHulk KO on Surfer. However, I've only ever seen scans of the Surfer vs Hulk battle.

Now, I will have to read the book as I cannot trust context to those who post said pics (via experience with said posters thus far). It looks as though Surfer is earthbound, weilding a mace ... in a straight up fist fight, the KO seems more plausible. Where's his board? Where's his vaunted power cosmic (that enhances his strength at will to near unlimited levels)?

However, I'm not sure I agree with the downplay of surviving an exploding planet unscathed. I'm supposed to pretend tis just an 'energy' resistance feat to make slugfests with gods more palatable? It's a HUGE durability feat. One that's mirrored in others as well highlighting a degree of consistency in Surfer's power levels IMHO.

And you are completely showing how inept your logic is when drawling on about travel speed and reaction speed. Are you seriously trying to sell the idea that Surfer does not react fast when he moves thousands of light years in a second? Think about that for moment ... I'll let it all sink in.

@Silver2467:

I've heard of the WWHulk KO on Surfer. However, I've only ever seen scans of the Surfer vs Hulk battle.

Now, I will have to read the book as I cannot trust context to those who post said pics (via experience with said posters thus far). It looks as though Surfer is earthbound, weilding a mace ... in a straight up fist fight, the KO seems more plausible. Where's his board? Where's his vaunted power cosmic (that enhances his strength at will to near unlimited levels)?

However, I'm not sure I agree with the downplay of surviving an exploding planet unscathed. I'm supposed to pretend tis just an 'energy' resistance feat to make slugfests with gods more palatable? It's a HUGE durability feat. One that's mirrored in others as well highlighting a degree of consistency in Surfer's power levels IMHO.

Spider-man has been hit by people way slower than him. Does that means he isn't really a bullet-dodger?

@CitizenBane:

Wolverine's vitals flatline. Technically, he's dead. The healing factor does indeed bring him back. So technically, he's not dead. Get it? And this has been elaborated upon more than once and in more than the one book you highlight so smuggly. I never disputed. I objected to you hollering "Wolverine died from a simple stab through the heart" without elaborating. As though this proved he couldn't soak blows from high level bricks. As though inconsistency in his healing factor was a new discovery worthy of pinning a medal on your chest for. As though this refuted somehow the many and varied other instances wherein he soaks incredible amounts of damage with more consistency. Mayhap in the two pannels in takes him to heal, his vitals are indeed flatlined and he is indeed technically dead. So? And you literally cherry picked his lowest end feats in the majority of your argument. As this subject threatens to derail this thread, we can carry on the bickering in the thread in question if you insist. I care not.

Stop exagerrating comments proferred. It's obvious that I was stating, based off powersets, Hulk tagging Silver Surfer is plot driven. That is all. Kind of like Batman tagging Superman. I have not read those stories form the pics you posted (though I've seen the pics aplenty), and I do not trust your context (or lack thereof) . PIS.

Thor KO'ing Surfer, as I stated, is more believable but is still a high end feat for Thor and a lower end feat for Surfer.

Travel time and reaction time. Jeez bud. OK. THINK NOW. How fast would one have to 'react' to move from point A to another point B thousands of light years away in seconds? If, say, his reaction time is slow, think he'd get there in seconds? Let me simplify; sure, there is travel involved, but a sprinter's performance in the 50 and 100 meter have a heck of a lot to do with how fast he reacts to the gunshot signaling the beginning of the race. That is reaction time. Capeesh?

@Silver2467 said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

And you are completely showing how inept your logic is when drawling on about travel speed and reaction speed. Are you seriously trying to sell the idea that Surfer does not react fast when he moves thousands of light years in a second? Think about that for moment ... I'll let it all sink in.

I agree with CB on this. Numerous characters can fly FTL but conveniently lose the alleged reaction time that comes with it when they actually need it. Thor, Superman, Martian Manhunter, Sentry, Captain Marvel, Beta Ray Bill, even Starfire, they can all travel faster than light, but during combat, they are consistently hit by characters moving vastly slower than that. How does that work? No explanation is ever really provided. In the case of someone like Surfer, he has cosmic awareness and various other superhuman senses which allow him to see across the universe. He could well know what is coming at him long before it even does. But inferences aside, why is it Surfer's reflexes are nowhere near that fast during fights? Why is it Hulk, Thor, Bill, Nova, Thanos, and so on can all tag him if his reaction time is determined by his travel speed? Why is it Martian Manhunter can fly six hundred light years and still be tagged by Despero? Why is it Superman can fly across the galaxy and still be hit by Darkseid? Why is it Thor can fly across the galaxy and still be hit by Iron Man? The list goes on. None of them frequently display FTL reaction time when they actually need it, despite what their travel speed portends. Writers never care enough to show how they can react that fast while traveling through space and yet not do so in fights, but this is still what happens. So, no, Surfer's travel speed is still unimportant.

Silver, think about it. How can Surfer get from point A to point B thousands of light years away in seconds without reaction time supporting it? How can a sprinter run the 50 meters if he's not equally fast at the sound of the gunshot signalling the beginning of the race? I'm not talking about a leisurely drive through the highways and byways of space. Surfer has literally gotten from one point to another point thousands of light years away (one instant even states millions) in seconds. That takes reaction timing of an equal value to be blunt.

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@CitizenBane:

Wolverine's vitals flatline. Technically, he's dead. The healing factor does indeed bring him back. So technically, he's not dead. Get it? And this has been elaborated upon more than once and in more than the one book you highlight so smuggly. I never disputed. I objected to you hollering "Wolverine died from a simple stab through the heart" without elaborating. As though this proved he couldn't soak blows from high level bricks. As though inconsistency in his healing factor was a new discovery worthy of pinning a medal on your chest for. As though this refuted somehow the many and varied other instances wherein he soaks incredible amounts of damage with more consistency. Mayhap in the two pannels in takes him to heal, his vitals are indeed flatlined and he is indeed technically dead. So? And you literally cherry picked his lowest end feats in the majority of your argument. As this subject threatens to derail this thread, we can carry on the bickering in the thread in question if you insist. I care not.

Stop exagerrating comments proferred. It's obvious that I was stating, based off powersets, Hulk tagging Silver Surfer is plot driven. That is all. Kind of like Batman tagging Superman. I have not read those stories form the pics you posted (though I've seen the pics aplenty), and I do not trust your context (or lack thereof) . PIS.

Thor KO'ing Surfer, as I stated, is more believable but is still a high end feat for Thor and a lower end feat for Surfer.

Travel time and reaction time. Jeez bud. OK. THINK NOW. How fast would one have to 'react' to move from point A to another point B thousands of light years away in seconds? If, say, his reaction time is slow, think he'd get there in seconds? Let me simplify; sure, there is travel involved, but a sprinter's performance in the 50 and 100 meter have a heck of a lot to do with how fast he reacts to the gunshot signaling the beginning of the race. That is reaction time. Capeesh?

So what? Doesn't change the fact that he died in the first place. Mitch Shelley dies in literally every single issue he appears in. He comes back to life every time. Does that change the fact that he was killed by whatever means? Or the canonicity of the kill? No and no.

And that's the only thing your argument has to stand on, isn't it? Hulk KO's Surfer? PIS. Thor KO's Surfer? High-end feat! Bill KO's Surfer? Is that PIS or a high-end feat? It's like you have this subconscious need to vastly overrate every character you try to debate for.

Silver's already addressed this. I see no reason to bother with it. Travel speed and reaction speed are not the same thing as far as comics are concerned at the very least. Deal with it.

Silver, think about it. How can Surfer get from point A to point B thousands of light years away in seconds without reaction time supporting it? How can a sprinter run the 50 meters if he's not equally fast at the sound of the gunshot signalling the beginning of the race? I'm not talking about a leisurely drive through the highways and byways of space. Surfer has literally gotten from one point to another point thousands of light years away (one instant even states millions) in seconds. That takes reaction timing of an equal value to be blunt.

@CitizenBane said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@CitizenBane:

Wolverine's vitals flatline. Technically, he's dead. The healing factor does indeed bring him back. So technically, he's not dead. Get it? And this has been elaborated upon more than once and in more than the one book you highlight so smuggly. I never disputed. I objected to you hollering "Wolverine died from a simple stab through the heart" without elaborating. As though this proved he couldn't soak blows from high level bricks. As though inconsistency in his healing factor was a new discovery worthy of pinning a medal on your chest for. As though this refuted somehow the many and varied other instances wherein he soaks incredible amounts of damage with more consistency. Mayhap in the two pannels in takes him to heal, his vitals are indeed flatlined and he is indeed technically dead. So? And you literally cherry picked his lowest end feats in the majority of your argument. As this subject threatens to derail this thread, we can carry on the bickering in the thread in question if you insist. I care not.

Stop exagerrating comments proferred. It's obvious that I was stating, based off powersets, Hulk tagging Silver Surfer is plot driven. That is all. Kind of like Batman tagging Superman. I have not read those stories form the pics you posted (though I've seen the pics aplenty), and I do not trust your context (or lack thereof) . PIS.

Thor KO'ing Surfer, as I stated, is more believable but is still a high end feat for Thor and a lower end feat for Surfer.

Travel time and reaction time. Jeez bud. OK. THINK NOW. How fast would one have to 'react' to move from point A to another point B thousands of light years away in seconds? If, say, his reaction time is slow, think he'd get there in seconds? Let me simplify; sure, there is travel involved, but a sprinter's performance in the 50 and 100 meter have a heck of a lot to do with how fast he reacts to the gunshot signaling the beginning of the race. That is reaction time. Capeesh?

So what? Doesn't change the fact that he died in the first place. Mitch Shelley dies in literally every single issue he appears in. He comes back to life every time. Does that change the fact that he was killed by whatever means? Or the canonicity of the kill? No and no.

And that's the only thing your argument has to stand on, isn't it? Hulk KO's Surfer? PIS. Thor KO's Surfer? High-end feat! Bill KO's Surfer? Is that PIS or a high-end feat? It's like you have this subconscious need to vastly overrate every character you try to debate for.

Silver's already addressed this. I see no reason to bother with it. Travel speed and reaction speed are not the same thing as far as comics are concerned at the very least. Deal with it.

No. Silver has not addressed it. The almighty Silver can be wrong too. At least he is not so defensive as to never admit to it. You see no reason to bother with it because that's your response when fallacy implicit in your argument is laid bare. ANYONE, even Albert Einstein, who states that reaction time is not EQUALLY relevant when moving from point A to point B is silly. Again, I'm not talking about a boxing match and combat reflexes. I'm talking about movement tied to reaction speed. I'm talking about Surfer moving out range of Zoom yet remaining within range of his own abilities to retaliate.

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@CitizenBane:

Wolverine's vitals flatline. Technically, he's dead. The healing factor does indeed bring him back. So technically, he's not dead. Get it? And this has been elaborated upon more than once and in more than the one book you highlight so smuggly. I never disputed. I objected to you hollering "Wolverine died from a simple stab through the heart" without elaborating. As though this proved he couldn't soak blows from high level bricks. As though inconsistency in his healing factor was a new discovery worthy of pinning a medal on your chest for. As though this refuted somehow the many and varied other instances wherein he soaks incredible amounts of damage with more consistency. Mayhap in the two pannels in takes him to heal, his vitals are indeed flatlined and he is indeed technically dead. So? And you literally cherry picked his lowest end feats in the majority of your argument. As this subject threatens to derail this thread, we can carry on the bickering in the thread in question if you insist. I care not.

Stop exagerrating comments proferred. It's obvious that I was stating, based off powersets, Hulk tagging Silver Surfer is plot driven. That is all. Kind of like Batman tagging Superman. I have not read those stories form the pics you posted (though I've seen the pics aplenty), and I do not trust your context (or lack thereof) . PIS.

Thor KO'ing Surfer, as I stated, is more believable but is still a high end feat for Thor and a lower end feat for Surfer.

Travel time and reaction time. Jeez bud. OK. THINK NOW. How fast would one have to 'react' to move from point A to another point B thousands of light years away in seconds? If, say, his reaction time is slow, think he'd get there in seconds? Let me simplify; sure, there is travel involved, but a sprinter's performance in the 50 and 100 meter have a heck of a lot to do with how fast he reacts to the gunshot signaling the beginning of the race. That is reaction time. Capeesh?

So what? Doesn't change the fact that he died in the first place. Mitch Shelley dies in literally every single issue he appears in. He comes back to life every time. Does that change the fact that he was killed by whatever means? Or the canonicity of the kill? No and no.

And that's the only thing your argument has to stand on, isn't it? Hulk KO's Surfer? PIS. Thor KO's Surfer? High-end feat! Bill KO's Surfer? Is that PIS or a high-end feat? It's like you have this subconscious need to vastly overrate every character you try to debate for.

Silver's already addressed this. I see no reason to bother with it. Travel speed and reaction speed are not the same thing as far as comics are concerned at the very least. Deal with it.

No. Silver has not addressed it. The almighty Silver can be wrong too. At least he is not so defensive as to never admit to it. You see no reason to bother with it because that's your response when fallacy implicit in your argument is laid bare. ANYONE, even Albert Einstein, who states that reaction time is not EQUALLY relevant when moving from point A to point B is silly. Again, I'm not talking about a boxing match and combat reflexes. I'm talking about movement tied to reaction speed. I'm talking about Surfer moving out range of Zoom yet remaining within range of his own abilities to retaliate.

.....and again, this has all been discussed repeatedly. Get over it. Or, alternatively, you could present scans of Surfer using this level of reaction time in a fight (any fight). I'll help you out: there are none.

In a Issue silver surfer was analysing a situation in a microsecond, and acting faster than that afterwards.

@Silver2467 said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

Silver, think about it. How can Surfer get from point A to point B thousands of light years away in seconds without reaction time supporting it? How can a sprinter run the 50 meters if he's not equally fast at the sound of the gunshot signalling the beginning of the race? I'm not talking about a leisurely drive through the highways and byways of space. Surfer has literally gotten from one point to another point thousands of light years away (one instant even states millions) in seconds. That takes reaction timing of an equal value to be blunt.

And yet this reaction time disappears during the fights, where he actually needs it. Other characters lose this reaction time during fights as well, where they actually need it. Why is it Surfer possesses such FTL reflexive speed but fails to evade attacks that are significantly slower than FTL speeds? The writers treat them separately. Moreover, Surfer could just use his cosmic awareness to know what will come at him before it does, he could turn intangible to avoid any collisions, he could enter hyperspace to travel (he has done this before, in fact, as Static posted scans of here), he could even just have his board fly him without the intervention of his own conscious reaction. None of these explanations are any more or less valid than yours because none have been definitively stated in the comics (aside from hyperspace, but this is not used every time, to my knowledge). Presuming that Surfer's reflexes are what allows him to travel that fast and that far without considering other possibilities, especially when his combat showings contradict that explanation, is appealing to ignorance. We don't know whether Surfer truly reacts that fast during flight or if he employs another method, and even if Surfer does react that fast during flight, he is one more character in a ridiculously long list that loses their supposed FTL reaction time during fights, despite having it during travel.

Yes. I understand writers treatment of powers. I understand plot driven and writer induced stupidity. Aren't these battle threads devised in such a way as to avoid having to adhere to writer induced stupidy? Plot based lapses where the powerset of a given character are involved and effectively ignored? In the absence of WIS, PIS and CIS type deal? There are plenty scenarios wherein Surfer has avoided and outraced attacks by use of his speed.

But when thrown in with Hulk, well, let's just say the plot must go on.

@thanobomb1124 said:

In a Issue silver surfer was analysing a situation in a microsecond, and acting faster than that afterwards.

Flash does that on a slow day, and we all know what Zoom is next to Flash.

@CitizenBane said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@CitizenBane:

Wolverine's vitals flatline. Technically, he's dead. The healing factor does indeed bring him back. So technically, he's not dead. Get it? And this has been elaborated upon more than once and in more than the one book you highlight so smuggly. I never disputed. I objected to you hollering "Wolverine died from a simple stab through the heart" without elaborating. As though this proved he couldn't soak blows from high level bricks. As though inconsistency in his healing factor was a new discovery worthy of pinning a medal on your chest for. As though this refuted somehow the many and varied other instances wherein he soaks incredible amounts of damage with more consistency. Mayhap in the two pannels in takes him to heal, his vitals are indeed flatlined and he is indeed technically dead. So? And you literally cherry picked his lowest end feats in the majority of your argument. As this subject threatens to derail this thread, we can carry on the bickering in the thread in question if you insist. I care not.

Stop exagerrating comments proferred. It's obvious that I was stating, based off powersets, Hulk tagging Silver Surfer is plot driven. That is all. Kind of like Batman tagging Superman. I have not read those stories form the pics you posted (though I've seen the pics aplenty), and I do not trust your context (or lack thereof) . PIS.

Thor KO'ing Surfer, as I stated, is more believable but is still a high end feat for Thor and a lower end feat for Surfer.

Travel time and reaction time. Jeez bud. OK. THINK NOW. How fast would one have to 'react' to move from point A to another point B thousands of light years away in seconds? If, say, his reaction time is slow, think he'd get there in seconds? Let me simplify; sure, there is travel involved, but a sprinter's performance in the 50 and 100 meter have a heck of a lot to do with how fast he reacts to the gunshot signaling the beginning of the race. That is reaction time. Capeesh?

So what? Doesn't change the fact that he died in the first place. Mitch Shelley dies in literally every single issue he appears in. He comes back to life every time. Does that change the fact that he was killed by whatever means? Or the canonicity of the kill? No and no.

And that's the only thing your argument has to stand on, isn't it? Hulk KO's Surfer? PIS. Thor KO's Surfer? High-end feat! Bill KO's Surfer? Is that PIS or a high-end feat? It's like you have this subconscious need to vastly overrate every character you try to debate for.

Silver's already addressed this. I see no reason to bother with it. Travel speed and reaction speed are not the same thing as far as comics are concerned at the very least. Deal with it.

No. Silver has not addressed it. The almighty Silver can be wrong too. At least he is not so defensive as to never admit to it. You see no reason to bother with it because that's your response when fallacy implicit in your argument is laid bare. ANYONE, even Albert Einstein, who states that reaction time is not EQUALLY relevant when moving from point A to point B is silly. Again, I'm not talking about a boxing match and combat reflexes. I'm talking about movement tied to reaction speed. I'm talking about Surfer moving out range of Zoom yet remaining within range of his own abilities to retaliate.

.....and again, this has all been discussed repeatedly. Get over it. Or, alternatively, you could present scans of Surfer using this level of reaction time in a fight (any fight). I'll help you out: there are none.

You want to stand by that comment?

EDIT: I don't have to get over crap. It's been discussed repeatedly. And this means the lack of logic and any sense in the conclusion that reaction timing has nothing to do with Surfer's speed is the correct conclusion? I think you bully your way around threads too often. Many of your comments are just plain weak and I don't have to buy into them when they just don't make any sense.

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@CitizenBane:

Wolverine's vitals flatline. Technically, he's dead. The healing factor does indeed bring him back. So technically, he's not dead. Get it? And this has been elaborated upon more than once and in more than the one book you highlight so smuggly. I never disputed. I objected to you hollering "Wolverine died from a simple stab through the heart" without elaborating. As though this proved he couldn't soak blows from high level bricks. As though inconsistency in his healing factor was a new discovery worthy of pinning a medal on your chest for. As though this refuted somehow the many and varied other instances wherein he soaks incredible amounts of damage with more consistency. Mayhap in the two pannels in takes him to heal, his vitals are indeed flatlined and he is indeed technically dead. So? And you literally cherry picked his lowest end feats in the majority of your argument. As this subject threatens to derail this thread, we can carry on the bickering in the thread in question if you insist. I care not.

Stop exagerrating comments proferred. It's obvious that I was stating, based off powersets, Hulk tagging Silver Surfer is plot driven. That is all. Kind of like Batman tagging Superman. I have not read those stories form the pics you posted (though I've seen the pics aplenty), and I do not trust your context (or lack thereof) . PIS.

Thor KO'ing Surfer, as I stated, is more believable but is still a high end feat for Thor and a lower end feat for Surfer.

Travel time and reaction time. Jeez bud. OK. THINK NOW. How fast would one have to 'react' to move from point A to another point B thousands of light years away in seconds? If, say, his reaction time is slow, think he'd get there in seconds? Let me simplify; sure, there is travel involved, but a sprinter's performance in the 50 and 100 meter have a heck of a lot to do with how fast he reacts to the gunshot signaling the beginning of the race. That is reaction time. Capeesh?

So what? Doesn't change the fact that he died in the first place. Mitch Shelley dies in literally every single issue he appears in. He comes back to life every time. Does that change the fact that he was killed by whatever means? Or the canonicity of the kill? No and no.

And that's the only thing your argument has to stand on, isn't it? Hulk KO's Surfer? PIS. Thor KO's Surfer? High-end feat! Bill KO's Surfer? Is that PIS or a high-end feat? It's like you have this subconscious need to vastly overrate every character you try to debate for.

Silver's already addressed this. I see no reason to bother with it. Travel speed and reaction speed are not the same thing as far as comics are concerned at the very least. Deal with it.

No. Silver has not addressed it. The almighty Silver can be wrong too. At least he is not so defensive as to never admit to it. You see no reason to bother with it because that's your response when fallacy implicit in your argument is laid bare. ANYONE, even Albert Einstein, who states that reaction time is not EQUALLY relevant when moving from point A to point B is silly. Again, I'm not talking about a boxing match and combat reflexes. I'm talking about movement tied to reaction speed. I'm talking about Surfer moving out range of Zoom yet remaining within range of his own abilities to retaliate.

.....and again, this has all been discussed repeatedly. Get over it. Or, alternatively, you could present scans of Surfer using this level of reaction time in a fight (any fight). I'll help you out: there are none.

You want to stand by that comment?

That there are no instances of Surfer using FTL reaction time in a fight? Sure. Of course, knowing you, you'll post a scan of Surfer flying at someone and claim it's reaction time. Right?

i want to get in on this for my character... but it seems like every thing that's being brought up has already been answerednumeroustimes By CB -__-

Yes. I understand writers treatment of powers. I understand plot driven and writer induced stupidity. Aren't these battle threads devised in such a way as to avoid having to adhere to writer induced stupidy? Plot based lapses where the powerset of a given character are involved and effectively ignored? In the absence of WIS, PIS and CIS type deal?

There are plenty scenarios wherein Surfer has avoided and outraced attacks by use of his speed.

But when thrown in with Hulk, well, let's just say the plot must go on.

@Super_SoldierXII said:

EDIT: I don't have to get over crap. It's been discussed repeatedly. And this means the lack of logic and any sense in the conclusion that reaction timing has nothing to do with Surfer's speed is the correct conclusion? I think you bully your way around threads too often. Many of your comments are just plain weak and I don't have to buy into them when they just don't make any sense.

I take it this means you could not find a single scan to collaborate your statement. I'm shocked, sire. Shocked to my very core.

Wow.....I always miss the funny threads lol

This is essentially Zoom vs Silver Surfer. Prime has Flash phobia so just imagine what a monster like Zoom would do to him....lol

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

And as its already been pointed out....multiple times...Zooms makes people like Superman, who has the same reaction time as Silver Surfer, look like statues.

C'mon Zoom stomps. And if Prime wasnt such a wussy he would stand a better chance anyways.

@CitizenBane said:

@Pokeysteve said:

I stopped reading on page 8 so forgive me if someone asked this already but Zoom punched Wonder Woman around the country and Surfer is more durable than her meaning Surfer won't take as much damage. What happens when Zoom punches him in the air? Is the Surfer going to go flying up and then back down with a cartoon whistle? He's probably going to catch himself at some point leaving him in the air ready and alert and Zoom on the ground.

That was with morals and Zoom not wanting to actually kill Diana. Who says Zoom has to punch him into the air? He wrecked the Flashes and Superman without knocking them into the air.

Not saying he has too but when you're packing that much force it's bound to happen. Just throwing a "what if?" out there.

@CitizenBane said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

EDIT: I don't have to get over crap. It's been discussed repeatedly. And this means the lack of logic and any sense in the conclusion that reaction timing has nothing to do with Surfer's speed is the correct conclusion? I think you bully your way around threads too often. Many of your comments are just plain weak and I don't have to buy into them when they just don't make any sense.

I take it this means you could not find a single scan to collaborate your statement. I'm shocked, sire. Shocked to my very core.

Oh get over yourself already and this "of course knowing you" garbage. You don't know crap about me. I know enough to avoid a weak set-up attempt when I see one. You're just butt hurt that someone has the audacity to have called you out when lying and exaggerating and omitting context in many of your examples in previous threads. Tell me how Surfer reacting at FTL speeds to save Mantis and Shalla Bal from and explosive energy sphere set to detonate on contact - and this when the two were already in the sphere (so I'd say contact had already been made) is not reaction speed? He was fast enough to react and get them out. How would he not be fast enough to avoid the Hulk? There are others as I'm sure you're already well aware.

But here you go, for shits and giggles, to stick with your "Hulk" theme;

There's him using his reaction time, as silly as it all is, to avoid a punch. Like avoiding and evading FTL speed alien ships comes second to him avoiding 'gasp' a Hulk punch. Whatever.

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

EDIT: I don't have to get over crap. It's been discussed repeatedly. And this means the lack of logic and any sense in the conclusion that reaction timing has nothing to do with Surfer's speed is the correct conclusion? I think you bully your way around threads too often. Many of your comments are just plain weak and I don't have to buy into them when they just don't make any sense.

I take it this means you could not find a single scan to collaborate your statement. I'm shocked, sire. Shocked to my very core.

Oh get over yourself already and this "of course knowing you" garbage. You don't know crap about me. I know enough to avoid a weak set-up attempt when I see one. You're just butt hurt that someone has the audacity to have called you out when lying and exaggerating and omitting context in many of your examples in previous threads. Tell me how Surfer reacting at FTL speeds to save Mantis and Shalla Bal from and explosive energy sphere set to detonate on contact - and this when the two were already in the sphere (so I'd say contact had already been made) is not reaction speed? He was fast enough to react and get them out. How would he not be fast enough to avoid the Hulk? There are others as I'm sure you're already well aware.

But here you go, for shits and giggles, to stick with your "Hulk" theme;

There's him using his reaction time, as silly as it all is, to avoid a punch. Like avoiding and evading FTL speed alien ships comes second to him avoiding 'gasp' a Hulk punch. Whatever.

Is there even wind in space?

@Silver2467 said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Silver2467:

I've heard of the WWHulk KO on Surfer. However, I've only ever seen scans of the Surfer vs Hulk battle.

Now, I will have to read the book as I cannot trust context to those who post said pics (via experience with said posters thus far). It looks as though Surfer is earthbound, weilding a mace ... in a straight up fist fight, the KO seems more plausible. Where's his board? Where's his vaunted power cosmic (that enhances his strength at will to near unlimited levels)?

He wielded his board as a makeshift shield during that fight, and as for his strength, Surfer was actually beating Hulk and the Warbound on strength alone in that fight. So his strength was certainly not being demoted by the writer for the purposes of the plot. Had the disc not been destroyed, Surfer probably would have won, but since he lost interest in the fight, whereas Hulk continued attacking, he was KO'd.

However, I'm not sure I agree with the downplay of surviving an exploding planet unscathed. I'm supposed to pretend tis just an 'energy' resistance feat to make slugfests with gods more palatable? It's a HUGE durability feat. One that's mirrored in others as well highlighting a degree of consistency in Surfer's power levels IMHO.

I never downplayed it at all. I said categorically, it falls under resistance to energy rather than blunt force. I have no argument against Surfer's ability to withstand waves of energy that can devastate planets or, indeed, even solar systems. But powerhouse characters repeatedly hurt him with punches. The comics themselves treat the two forms of durability differently; so do we. EDIT: As I recall though, Surfer was weakened during that fight. He said the planet may have been interfering with his powers, but what the extent of this was was never stated (to my recollection; if it was stated; someone correct me). It may have just obstructed his ability to call on the full arsenal of the PC, or it is entirely possible that he was physically weaker as well.

And thank you sir for providing just and unbiased context. Tis refreshing and much appreciated. Makes a lot more sense now.

@Super_SoldierXII: LOL, I asked for FTL reaction times in a fight and you post Hulk? And are you even aware that ON THE VERY NEXT PAGE HULK CATCHES SURFER AND HITS HIM? Seriously, you're just embarrassing yourself at this point. Dodging Hulk makes Surfer as fast as Captain America.

@nickthedevil: I know right? Like I said, silly. Just as all this talk of Hulk KO'ing Surfer. And again, I thank Silver for providing just context on that one. Would you prefer seeing scans of him avoiding FTL speed alien ships? Or easily outracing exploding stars? I dunno. This is no longer about Surfer vs Zoom and more about keeping scans in context and ackowledging low and high end feats for what they are.

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@nickthedevil: I know right? Like I said, silly. Just as all this talk of Hulk KO'ing Surfer. And again, I thank Silver for providing just context on that one. Would you prefer seeing scans of him avoiding FTL speed alien ships? Or easily outracing exploding stars? I dunno. This is no longer about Surfer vs Zoom and more about keeping scans in context and ackowledging low and high end feats for what they are.

Flash has outrun the Big Bang and Death under his own power. And with an immense amp, he couldn't handle Zoom. This is no longer about Surfer vs Zoom, it's more about not quoting instances you haven't bothered reading to spare yourself embarrassment.

Is there even wind in space?

@Silver2467 said:

@nickthedevil said:

Is there even wind in space?

He could be referring to solar wind. Not an astrophysicist or astronomer myself, but from what I heard, solar winds can travel up to hundreds of miles per second. So if Surfer can react that fast, that is a decent showing.

still not good enough to be put on par with Zoom.

@Silver2467 said:

@nickthedevil said:

Is there even wind in space?

He could be referring to solar wind. Not an astrophysicist or astronomer myself, but from what I heard, solar winds can travel up to hundreds of miles per second. So if Surfer can react that fast, that is a decent showing.

still not good enough to be put on par with Zoom.

@Silver2467 said:

@nickthedevil said:

@Silver2467 said:

@nickthedevil said:

Is there even wind in space?

He could be referring to solar wind. Not an astrophysicist or astronomer myself, but from what I heard, solar winds can travel up to hundreds of miles per second. So if Surfer can react that fast, that is a decent showing.

still not good enough to be put on par with Zoom.

Never said it did. I was just saying that for what it is, the showing is pretty decent. I doubt, however, that that is even the limits of Surfer's reaction time, but even then, he is nowhere near as fast as Zoom in combat, reaction, perception, or processing speed.

i know you didn't, i wasn't saying it to you specifically, i was saying in general, yes it's a decent feat, but it's not good enough to be put next to Zoom in any way.

@CitizenBane:

You feel threatened and have to yell out how I am embarrasing myself to save face. I am doing no such thing. If anyone should feel embarrased, it's you by constantly omitting context.

Yes. It is ridiculous. As is the whole notion of Hulk versus the Silver Surfer. You had already established Hulk could and has hit the Surfer so I don't see the problem. And I posted a combat pic of Surfer using his speed to avoid a punch. Voila. As requested. If you know what space wind is, then you can judge how fast he moved. So you were wrong and I was right. What do you say about the other example with Mantis and Shalla Bal? Avoiding space ships travelling at FTL speeds? Doesn't count cuz it ain't the Hulk? Are you beginning to see now why and how a fight with Hulk is low end PIS riddled crap? Again, like Batman tagging Superman.

Why are you harping on books I didn't read ... when I never claimed I had? How can you knock someone for context when you completely disregard it yourself?

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@CitizenBane:

You feel threatened and have to yell out how I am embarrasing myself to save face. I am doing no such thing. If anyone should feel embarrased, it's you by constantly omitting context.

Yes. It is ridiculous. As is the whole notion of Hulk versus the Silver Surfer. You had already established Hulk could and has hit the Surfer so I don't see the problem. And I posted a combat pic of Surfer using his speed to avoid a punch. Voila. As requested. If you know what space wind is, then you can judge how fast he moved. So you were wrong and I was right. What do you say about the other example with Mantis and Shalla Bal? Avoiding space ships travelling at FTL speeds? Doesn't count cuz it ain't the Hulk? Are you beginning to see now why and how a fight with Hulk is low end PIS riddled crap? Again, like Batman tagging Superman.

Why are you harping on books I didn't read ... when I never claimed I had? How can you knock someone for context when you completely disregard it yourself?

Don't flatter yourself, there's nothing in your points that's vaguely interesting, let alone threatening. I did not at any point of time raise Hulk hitting Surfer in a discussion about reaction times. Every scan or argument I made about Hulk was related to damage output. Surfer using his speed to avoid a punch from Hulk is utterly pointless, considering street levelers like Captain America and Spider-Man do it without the benefit of the Power Cosmic. I asked you for scans of Surfer using FTL reaction speed in a fight. You have failed. Avoiding whatever flying at FTL speeds is pointless as well, only the reaction times they display in combat scenarios matter. Majestic has dodged projectiles moving at six times the speed of light. Kyle Rayner has dodged a projectile moving at seven times the speed of light. Neither one of those feats is accounted for under their reaction times. The only ones that do are the nanosecond reaction feats Majestic displayed against Spartan and so on. You keep bringing up Batman tagging Superman, I'm going to comment on that to highlight the mediocrity of your argument. Honestly, what are you talking about? Batman has hit Superman in a fight a grand total of once. And that was under Loeb, and even then he had a kryptonite ring. He tried to hit him in For Tomorrow, failed. He tried in Sacrifice, failed. He tried in Torment, failed. You keep bringing it up like it happens all the time. I presume this is yet another thing you just saw on a respect thread without any knowledge of the story? Wouldn't surprise me.

only the reaction times they display in combat scenarios matter.

@Silver2467 said:

@CitizenBane said:

only the reaction times they display in combat scenarios matter.

I disagree with this. Saying that only combat-based feats are relevant is taking it too far, in my opinion. We can use feats that are performed in out of combat situations as long as they match up with or at least in the same general range of those consistently displayed during combat. For instance, Surfer has moved fast enough to save several people in different locations all nearly concurrently in an out of combat situation; I think that would be a valid showing, as he has attacked several targets in different locations all nearly concurrently as well. But this is just semantics.

I agree with Silver2467. Just bringing in combat situations is not enough. In some characters' cases, they have proven to have faster non-combat reactions in issues.

@CitizenBane said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@CitizenBane:

You feel threatened and have to yell out how I am embarrasing myself to save face. I am doing no such thing. If anyone should feel embarrased, it's you by constantly omitting context.

Yes. It is ridiculous. As is the whole notion of Hulk versus the Silver Surfer. You had already established Hulk could and has hit the Surfer so I don't see the problem. And I posted a combat pic of Surfer using his speed to avoid a punch. Voila. As requested. If you know what space wind is, then you can judge how fast he moved. So you were wrong and I was right. What do you say about the other example with Mantis and Shalla Bal? Avoiding space ships travelling at FTL speeds? Doesn't count cuz it ain't the Hulk? Are you beginning to see now why and how a fight with Hulk is low end PIS riddled crap? Again, like Batman tagging Superman.

Why are you harping on books I didn't read ... when I never claimed I had? How can you knock someone for context when you completely disregard it yourself?

Don't flatter yourself, there's nothing in your points that's vaguely interesting, let alone threatening. I did not at any point of time raise Hulk hitting Surfer in a discussion about reaction times. Every scan or argument I made about Hulk was related to damage output. Surfer using his speed to avoid a punch from Hulk is utterly pointless, considering street levelers like Captain America and Spider-Man do it without the benefit of the Power Cosmic. I asked you for scans of Surfer using FTL reaction speed in a fight. You have failed. Avoiding whatever flying at FTL speeds is pointless as well, only the reaction times they display in combat scenarios matter. Majestic has dodged projectiles moving at six times the speed of light. Kyle Rayner has dodged a projectile moving at seven times the speed of light. Neither one of those feats is accounted for under their reaction times. The only ones that do are the nanosecond reaction feats Majestic displayed against Spartan and so on. You keep bringing up Batman tagging Superman, I'm going to comment on that to highlight the mediocrity of your argument. Honestly, what are you talking about? Batman has hit Superman in a fight a grand total of once. And that was under Loeb, and even then he had a kryptonite ring. He tried to hit him in For Tomorrow, failed. He tried in Sacrifice, failed. He tried in Torment, failed. You keep bringing it up like it happens all the time. I presume this is yet another thing you just saw on a respect thread without any knowledge of the story? Wouldn't surprise me.

The only thing I take from that paragraph is you knocking me for 'apparently' basing feats on scans while not having read the book which is the exact thing I nailed you on repeatedly with examples proferred over and over again in this and other threads. Calling the kettle black is all you are doing. You challenged me to provide instances and scans. And I did so. I tell you to 'get over yourself', you respond with 'don't flatter yourself'. Original much? I point out many instances wherein you conveniently omit context you try to throw the same back in my face (falling flat).

And finally, with the Batman hitting Superman schtick you seem to have gotten the point. CONTEXT. Stop highlighting it only when it suits your fancy then ignoring it when it doesn't.

@Silver2467 said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

And you are completely showing how inept your logic is when drawling on about travel speed and reaction speed. Are you seriously trying to sell the idea that Surfer does not react fast when he moves thousands of light years in a second? Think about that for moment ... I'll let it all sink in.

I agree with CB on this. Numerous characters can fly FTL but conveniently lose the alleged reaction time that comes with it when they actually need it. Thor, Superman, Martian Manhunter, Sentry, Captain Marvel, Beta Ray Bill, even Starfire, they can all travel faster than light, but during combat, they are consistently hit by characters moving vastly slower than that. How does that work? No explanation is ever really provided. In the case of someone like Surfer, he has cosmic awareness and various other superhuman senses which allow him to see across the universe. He could well know what is coming at him long before it even does. But inferences aside, why is it Surfer's reflexes are nowhere near that fast during fights? Why is it Hulk, Thor, Bill, Nova, Thanos, and so on can all tag him if his reaction time is determined by his travel speed? Why is it Martian Manhunter can fly six hundred light years and still be tagged by Despero? Why is it Superman can fly across the galaxy and still be hit by Darkseid? Why is it Thor can fly across the galaxy and still be hit by Iron Man? The list goes on. None of them frequently display FTL reaction time when they actually need it, despite what their travel speed portends. Writers never care enough to show how they can react that fast while traveling through space and yet not do so in fights, but this is still what happens. So, no, Surfer's travel speed is still unimportant.

To be honest, they don't need an explanation. The simple fact is relativity covers it. According to the law of relativity when your moving at the speed of light all movement around you is relative to your speed. So all other movement while at that speed looks lower. We experience the same thing when we drive cars at high speed. Ever gone from driving in a high speed limit area (say highway) to a restricted speed limit area. When you enter the lower speed area you feel as if you hardly moving, that your going at a snails pace. The effect lasts longer if you've been in that higher speed zone for longer. So it is possible to have very fast travel speed and only have fast reactions at that speed.

As I've said for me the reaction speed in this is less of an issue due to the OP set up on character. In character SS would go down fast because he never employs his time manipulation. With no morals he will which means when he reacts (after he's bee attacked) will/can result in a counter attack before the initial attack. Zoom himself only has reflexes due to his ability slowing time around him, when fighting someone who can simply shift through time he will also lack the reaction to avoid. So for me best case scenario is stalemate.

@beatboks1 said:

@Silver2467 said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

And you are completely showing how inept your logic is when drawling on about travel speed and reaction speed. Are you seriously trying to sell the idea that Surfer does not react fast when he moves thousands of light years in a second? Think about that for moment ... I'll let it all sink in.

I agree with CB on this. Numerous characters can fly FTL but conveniently lose the alleged reaction time that comes with it when they actually need it. Thor, Superman, Martian Manhunter, Sentry, Captain Marvel, Beta Ray Bill, even Starfire, they can all travel faster than light, but during combat, they are consistently hit by characters moving vastly slower than that. How does that work? No explanation is ever really provided. In the case of someone like Surfer, he has cosmic awareness and various other superhuman senses which allow him to see across the universe. He could well know what is coming at him long before it even does. But inferences aside, why is it Surfer's reflexes are nowhere near that fast during fights? Why is it Hulk, Thor, Bill, Nova, Thanos, and so on can all tag him if his reaction time is determined by his travel speed? Why is it Martian Manhunter can fly six hundred light years and still be tagged by Despero? Why is it Superman can fly across the galaxy and still be hit by Darkseid? Why is it Thor can fly across the galaxy and still be hit by Iron Man? The list goes on. None of them frequently display FTL reaction time when they actually need it, despite what their travel speed portends. Writers never care enough to show how they can react that fast while traveling through space and yet not do so in fights, but this is still what happens. So, no, Surfer's travel speed is still unimportant.

To be honest, they don't need an explanation. The simple fact is relativity covers it. According to the law of relativity when your moving at the speed of light all movement around you is relative to your speed. So all other movement while at that speed looks lower. We experience the same thing when we drive cars at high speed. Ever gone from driving in a high speed limit area (say highway) to a restricted speed limit area. When you enter the lower speed area you feel as if you hardly moving, that your going at a snails pace. The effect lasts longer if you've been in that higher speed zone for longer. So it is possible to have very fast travel speed and only have fast reactions at that speed.

As I've said for me the reaction speed in this is less of an issue due to the OP set up on character. In character SS would go down fast because he never employs his time manipulation. With no morals he will which means when he reacts (after he's bee attacked) will/can result in a counter attack before the initial attack. Zoom himself only has reflexes due to his ability slowing time around him, when fighting someone who can simply shift through time he will also lack the reaction to avoid. So for me best case scenario is stalemate.

You cant move at the speed of light according to the theory of relativity... Because mass shrinks to zero. Only massless particles can move at the speed of light for obvious reasons.

P.S stop applying physics here please.. >_<

but i agree with you stalemate deduction ^_^

@HolySerpent said:

When monarch use his city busting attack, thats when monarch commented on his energy is like the big bang it self, not when his armor was ripped off and a universal explosion happened. And once again I must tell you: Ion fought Superboy prime...how come you dont understand that?

@CitizenBane said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

EDIT: I don't have to get over crap. It's been discussed repeatedly. And this means the lack of logic and any sense in the conclusion that reaction timing has nothing to do with Surfer's speed is the correct conclusion? I think you bully your way around threads too often. Many of your comments are just plain weak and I don't have to buy into them when they just don't make any sense.

I take it this means you could not find a single scan to collaborate your statement. I'm shocked, sire. Shocked to my very core.

Why would you be shocked? He speaks the truth.

@Kinasin_ said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

EDIT: I don't have to get over crap. It's been discussed repeatedly. And this means the lack of logic and any sense in the conclusion that reaction timing has nothing to do with Surfer's speed is the correct conclusion? I think you bully your way around threads too often. Many of your comments are just plain weak and I don't have to buy into them when they just don't make any sense.

I take it this means you could not find a single scan to collaborate your statement. I'm shocked, sire. Shocked to my very core.

Why would you be shocked? He speaks the truth.

Go back to trolling, Kinasin. Sooner or later you'll get banned again.

@CitizenBane said:

@Kinasin_ said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

EDIT: I don't have to get over crap. It's been discussed repeatedly. And this means the lack of logic and any sense in the conclusion that reaction timing has nothing to do with Surfer's speed is the correct conclusion? I think you bully your way around threads too often. Many of your comments are just plain weak and I don't have to buy into them when they just don't make any sense.

I take it this means you could not find a single scan to collaborate your statement. I'm shocked, sire. Shocked to my very core.

Why would you be shocked? He speaks the truth.

Go back to trolling, Kinasin. Sooner or later you'll get banned again.

That's all you can say in your defense? You need to tune it down a little champ. You do have a bully attitude in threads which is very offensive.

@Kinasin_ said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Kinasin_ said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

EDIT: I don't have to get over crap. It's been discussed repeatedly. And this means the lack of logic and any sense in the conclusion that reaction timing has nothing to do with Surfer's speed is the correct conclusion? I think you bully your way around threads too often. Many of your comments are just plain weak and I don't have to buy into them when they just don't make any sense.

I take it this means you could not find a single scan to collaborate your statement. I'm shocked, sire. Shocked to my very core.

Why would you be shocked? He speaks the truth.

Go back to trolling, Kinasin. Sooner or later you'll get banned again.

That's all you can say in your defense? You need to tune it down a little champ. You do have a bully attitude in threads which is very offensive.

I don't have a defense. I don't need one. I've stated my position repeatedly. All you do is post scans out of context and go off on passive-aggressive mini-rants about how this thread is a joke, despite never having read anything about the characters in the first place. Honestly, go back to trolling. I'll get back to.......bullying my way around threads, apparently.

@Enemybird said:

You cant move at the speed of light according to the theory of relativity... Because mass shrinks to zero. Only massless particles can move at the speed of light for obvious reasons.

P.S stop applying physics here please.. >_<

but i agree with you stalemate deduction ^_^

LOL, wait, I'm not allowed to apply physics to explain the simple known reason why someone can move at great speed and react at it but not react in other situations but you can to disprove light speed movement?? :D

Zoom.

@beatboks1 said:

@Enemybird said:

You cant move at the speed of light according to the theory of relativity... Because mass shrinks to zero. Only massless particles can move at the speed of light for obvious reasons.

P.S stop applying physics here please.. >_<

but i agree with you stalemate deduction ^_^

LOL, wait, I'm not allowed to apply physics to explain the simple known reason why someone can move at great speed and react at it but not react in other situations but you can to disprove light speed movement?? :D

Not unless real physics were explicitly stated or heavily implied in the comics to disclose ones abilities akin to your explanation...

I still believe prime and surfer wins. Zoom doesn't has the power to put prime down, end of story.