Obi Wan and Yoda vs Palpatine

Obi Wan and Yoda

Palpatine

• Obi Wan goes with Yoda to fight Palpatine
• Feats from the movies only
• Fight takes place in Palpatine's office
• Everyone is in character
• To the death or incapacitation

They kill him.

Obi-Wan and Yoda undoubtedly

@depinhom: @bat_saint: Care to explain why?

Ehh.. IMO the outcome would probably be the same as ROTS. Except this time Obi-Wan would be dead.

The thing is, Obi-Wan would probably be more of a liability than an asset to Yoda. Actually he may not even affect the duel at all. Sidious is miles above Kenobi in all categories and Sidious could probably move faster than Obi-Wan could react and kill him early in the duel. Obi-Wan brings little to the table which could swing the duel in the duo's favour.

After Kenobi's (IMO near-inevitable) death the battle would descend into a Yoda vs Palpy duel of the kind we saw originally in ROTS. The ROTS duel showed that Yoda could not overcome Sidious and I don't see how it would be much different this time.

Yoda has a distraction....he ends him.

yoda solos

Well, I mean, Yoda alone gave him a great fight and Obi-Wan defeated both of Palpatine's apprentices, even when he was still a Padawan

They're both clearly very skilled and can most certainly take this together

Team takes this. Kit fisto hung with palpatine for a hot minute with mace. No reason why obi wan shouldn't be able to replicate that. Yoda is arguably palpatine equal and can give him the fight of his life on his own. The same could not be said for Mace, who only held his own due to plot and being amped. Obi wan is smarter and more crafty than your average Jedi, his defenses will provide an excellent distraction against Palpatine. Obi wan has also showed to be able to guard against lightning w his saber against dooku. Obi wan is now smarter and more experienced in rots. They take the emperor down in a hard fight.

I could see Kenobi being a moral hindrance more than anything, since Palpatine could just hold him ransom or perch him of a collapsing ledge or something and making Yoda chose between their lives.

@silverrings: Yoda gave Sidious the fight of his life. If Obi doesn't get ragdolled they will kill him. I don't think he will ragdoll Obi because that would give Yoda an opening or because Yoda won't let up enough for him to get the chance to.

I get the strong feeling that Obi-Wan would get in the way, honestly.

This basically depends on what exactly you think Obi-Wan would add here. Would he be an unhelpful contemporary, like the Council members with Mace, or would he actually provide Yoda the extra edge needed to win a majority?

What's stopping Sidious from one-shotting Obi-Wan and proceeding to beat Yoda after an intense duel?

stopping*

I think the former is more likely. Obi-Wan doesn't have to speed to keep up with either of them. Another scenario - and one that I think is likely - is that Palpatine would essentially beat Yoda with Obi-Wan, causing Yoda to split his attention and giving Palpatine an opening, essentially helping Palpatine.

The fact that Yoda initially got taken out by lightning at the start of their fight speaks volumes. Obi-Wan would have been oneshotted. I think he'd fair better than the 3 Council members, but not much better.

@wollfmyth209: ragdolling Kenobi would leave palpatine open to an attack from yoda. Yoda isn't just going to sit there and watch palpatine force slam Kenobi around like a old toy.

@barelyaverage: Only all Sidious would need is a hand gesture to dispatch Kenobi. Pretty sure he can bladelock with Yoda while doing that. Or he can speedblitz Obi then proceed to fight Yoda.

This basically becomes Yoda vs Palpatine real early in the fight. Both are a tiers above him.

Lel, Sidious couldn't speed blitz Fisto, and Kenobi is faster than him, not to mention Kenobi's blade defense shits on Fisto's.

^ohh tuff guy

Obi-Wan add's nothing of merit to this battle. He dies at the beginning of the battle and Yoda loses again :/

Is Obi even capable of moving Sidious at all with the Force? Like if Sid was fighting Yoda and thought Obi was dead, but he was just unconscious and blindsided Palps with a Push, would it take any effect?

Yes. Everyone can Force Push anyone, only the effects that vary. From a simple staggering to flat out pulverization.

@cs_zoltan: Cool, thank you.

According to starwars.com and several EU sources, that is precisely what Sidious did.

Before the Jedi could react, Palpatine sprang into action and killed all of them except Mace Windu.

--Taken from starwars.com, Databank, Palpatine Biography Gallery, Image 26 of 29

In the inner recesses of his private office, the Jedi confronted the Chancellor. Palpatine produced a lightsaber hidden in his sleeve and let the dark side flow through him. It granted him unnatural dexterity and speed—enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

Fisto may not have been blitzed as quickly as Tiin and Kolar, but sources tell us plainly that he failed to react to Palpatine during their brief duel. That constitutes a speedblitz.

Based on what?

And the movie and its novel are saying otherwise.

Feats.

The novel is by no means clear about that given that Fisto and Mace's effort against Sidious was shown from Anakin's perspective who was still outside the building and lasts only few seconds, and the film portrays Fisto and Mace together fighting Sidious for a few exchanges before Fisto is cut down. By no means does that rule out Palpatine cutting him down before he can react, especially considering the authenticity and canon authority of the SW site. Just because Kit didn't die as quickly as Tiin or Kolar does not mean he was any more prepared to meet Sidious than they were. Fisto surviving long enough to throw a couple strokes at Palpatine and Fisto quickly being unable to react to Palpatine's blade are not incompatible with one another, particularly with Mace's assistance.

Well, naturally, but which ones?

On the Invisible Hand Kenobi appeared to teleport to Dooku, moved so fast he didn't even dare to strike at him, and lastly Dooku called him blinding.

"Very well, then," the Jedi said, and shot straight upward over Dooku's head so fast it seemed he'd vanished.

—Revenge of the Sith

But by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike;

—Revenge of the Sith

He finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago.

—Revenge of the Sith

Considering Yoda is likely incapable of blitzing Dooku, Sidious shouldn't be able to blitz Kenobi either. Poor Kenobi is such an underrated force users.

Now excuse me while I prepare myself for the shit I will get for even thinking Kenobi is anything more than a fly on Dooku's radar (not necessarily from you).

How someone can claim that Sidioud blitzed Fisto is beyond me. Fisto at least clashed swords with Sidious 3 times, and in the novel, it lasted even more than that, Anakin even sees them in a duel where Fisto involved 2 v 1.

Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin. Kolar and Tiin closed on Palpatine, blocking the path to the door. Shadows dripped and oozed color, weaving and coiling up office walls slipping over chairs, spreading along the floor. "Resist? How could I possibly resist?" Still seated at the desk Palpatine shook an empty fist helplessly, the perfect image of a tired, frightened old man. "This is murder, you Jedi traitors! How can I be any threat to you?"

He turned desperately to Saesee Tiin. "Master Tiin-you're the telepath. What am I thinking right now?" Tiin frowned and cocked his head. His blade dipped. A smear of red-flashing darkness hurtled from behind the desk. Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor. Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps of the horns, severed just below the chin.

Kit Fisto gasped, "Saesee!"

The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor. "It doesn't . . ." Agen Kolar swayed.

His emerald blade shrank away, and the handgrip tumbled from his opening fingers. A small, neat hole in the middle of his forehead leaked smoke, showing light from the back of his head.

". . . hurt . . ." He pitched forward onto his face, and lay still. Palpatine stood at the doorway, but the door stayed shut. From his right hand extended a blade the color of fire. The door locked itself at his back. "Help! Help!" Palpatine cried like a man in desperate fear for his life. "Security-someone! Help me! Murder! Treason!" Then he smiled. He held one finger to his lips, and, astonishingly, he winked. In the blank second that followed, while Mace Windu and Kit Fisto could do no more than angle their lightsabers to guard, Palpatine swiftly stepped over the bodies back toward his desk, reversed his blade, and drove it in a swift, surgically precise stab down through his desktop. "That's enough of that."

He let it burn its way free through the front, then he turned, lifting his weapon, appearing to study it as one might study the face of a beloved friend one has long thought dead. Power gathered around him until the Force shimmered with darkness.

"If you only knew," he said softly, perhaps speaking to the Jedi Masters, or perhaps to himself, or perhaps even to the scarlet blade lifted now as though in mocking salute, "how long I have been waiting for this ..."

Anakin's speeder shrieked through the rain, dodging forked bolts of lightning that shot up from towers into the clouds, slicing across traffic lanes, screaming past spacescrapers so fast that his shock-wake cracked windows as he passed.

He didn't understand why people didn't just get out of his way. He didn't understand how the trillion beings who jammed Galactic City could go about their trivial business as though the universe hadn't changed. How could they think they counted for anything, compared with him? How could they think they still mattered? Their blind lives meant nothing now. None of them. Because ahead, on the vast cliff face of the Senate Office Building, one window spat lightning into the rain to echo the lightning of the storm outside-but this lightning was the color of clashing lightsabers.

Green fans, sheets of purple-

And crimson flame.

He was too late.

The green fire faded and winked out; now the lightning was only purple and red.

-- Taken from Revenge of the Sith Novelization

As for the thread, obviously Palpatine isn't going to blitz Kenobi, but Kenobi doesn't have much to offer here, it's still Yoda vs. Sidious.

Depends on how quick Sidious dispatches Kenobi so that he can turn his full attention to Yoda without Yoda capitalizing on the briefest moment of distraction. If Sid does get rid of Obi before Yoda can get any significant hits then it'll probably play out like the stalemate in RoTS, otherwise then the team may win, though Obi-Wan will probably die either way.

This is a good argument to make in Kenobi's favor, but it doesn't establish Obi-Wan as faster than Dooku, just gaining an advantage in those exchanges (though I'm not sure you were insinuating that Obi-Wan was faster than Dooku or not). The RotS novelization made a point about Obi-Wan and Anakin's strategy in imbalancing Dooku by initially adopting Ataru and Shien forms until they caught him off guard by switching to their Soresu and Djem So techniques and then overwhelming him by outmaneuvering him. When Dooku leapt away from Obi-Wan, Anakin met him, and when he retreated from Anakin, Obi-Wan met him. They gained leverage and put him on the defensive through misdirection and mobility, as well as just sheer skill in their preferred forms.

On the other hand, the RotS novelization has Dooku kicking Anakin away from himself and then sending another kick at Obi-Wan, also at "blinding" speeds. This was after, not before, Obi-Wan had cut down the battle droids. Dooku launched Anakin back (and possibly Obi-Wan as well) before the remains of the droids even hit the ground.

Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs. Sounded like he'd broken his neck.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

If we were to take an albeit less-canon source, Dooku outpaces Obi-Wan when he Force Chokes him, as he did in the film.

The two droids fired at Obi-Wan, but he batted their fired energy bolts back at them and cut them down as he moved fast for Dooku. Unfortunately, Dooku moved faster, extending his left hand toward Obi-Wan as he used the Force to lift the Jedi off his feet while at the same time constricting his throat.

--Taken from The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader

I agree with you that Obi-Wan's duel with Dooku does boast impressive speed, but then, wouldn't Fisto's duel with Grievous do the same? Since we are using the RotS novel as a source, after all, Grievous is depicted in that book as faster than Obi-Wan, and it was Obi-Wan's especially acute sensitivity to the Force in that encounter that saved him.

Could Obi-Wan be faster than Kit? Maybe but maybe not. I think Kenobi is more powerful than Fisto, and you could argue that would yield greater speed. But it can be debated, and even if there is a speed gap, it should be negligible to be honest.

Not sure what to say about Yoda and Dooku. Dooku stands among the most powerful Force masters of the PT era, and Yoda very evidently fought more aggressively against Palpatine than against Dooku. You very well may be right that Yoda couldn't blitz Dooku, but I can't be reasonably expected to dismiss the fact that Sidious has blitzed high-level Jedi in the past simply because Yoda failed to against Tyranus.

With that said, would Sidious blitz Kenobi the way he did with Saesee and Agen? Doubtful. Could he blitz Kenobi the way he did with Fisto, that is, Obi-Wan would survive for a few seconds before Sidious' speed overwhelms him? Very possibly. Would he fall the way Fisto did alongside Mace in this fight? That's where I remain uncertain. Like I said in my first post, this depends on whether you think Obi-Wan would fare any better than the Council members. I could potentially see him faring better than them purely because of Yoda's presence here, but it can be debated.

On that we agree 100%.

LOL

I didn't. Dooku is more powerful than Kenobi, but I for one don't think the difference is gaping. Their speed difference should be marignal, that's why it swings both ways. Sometimes Kenobi is faster (he was faster in those quotes), and sometimes Dooku is. Like what you quoted from The rise and fall of Darth Vader. Which is further expanded in the Junior RotS novel, which suggest Kenobi could've countered Dooku's choke, but it was just too fast. Another proof that Kenobi is not that far behind. Dooku can't just ragdoll him any day everyday.

That depends. Yes Fisto fared good against Grievous, but lets not forget it was early TCW Grievous. I'm not gona flat out ignore canon, but it's obvious that even though Grievous is a cyborg, he improved drastically during the war. Just like almost every notable person did. Kenobi, Anakin, Ventress, just to name a few.

Another good argument in favour of Kenobi is how he and Dooku fared against prime Grievous. LoE notes that Dooku is hard pressed to outduel Grievous, even though he deliberately held back his training so he doesn't become a rival. Which should negate Kenobi's form advantage. In which case they were both hard pressed, but they both win. This taking into account only the lightsaber duel part of RotS Kenobi vs Grievous, not the melee brawl. Obviously Grievous won't try to run away from Dooku in a sparring match...

So I don't see how Fisto should be so close to Kenobi, when Kenobi is so close to Dooku.

That's just it, I think Kenobi is a hella lot closer to Dooku than to the B-Team.

Kenobi's Soresu should be better against Sidious than Fisto's Shii-Cho too imo, and with the above I doubt he'd get blitzed. Kenobi was built to last long in combat.

And for the last point I think Yoda would be a better ally than Windu, since apparently his Vaapad had a ramp up time, so to speak. And Yoda vs Sidious is so evenly matched I do think Kenobi can tip the balance.

Team Wins.

Yoda and Sidious had a pretty even fight to begin with and as long as there is good teamwork, him and Kenobi should win.

Agreed with this - and I believe that this hinges entirely on Sidious' mode of attack. If Palpatine decides to assault them both with his lightsaber, then I see the Emperor losing. Obi-Wan should hold his own in the same way that Kit did, except he's the better fighter and his form is better suited towards prolonging the conflict, not to mention that Yoda is a superior duelist to Mace. In a lightsaber bout, I could see Obi-Wan's Soresu providing the defensive edge required for Yoda to get the better of Palpatine (especially because Yoda has already disarmed Sidious during their lightsaber duel in RotS in some versions).

If Sheev decides to attack with the Force, then I don't see Obi-Wan doing much to help. As has been expressed earlier in this thread, I do believe Obi-Wan is an underrated Force wielder, but Sheev is simply leagues beyond him. With the exception of potentially repelling Palpatine's Lightning on his blade, I'm confident that Kenobi would be dismissed quickly through the Force, and if the Emperor is smart, that's going to be his strategy.

Agreed. When it comes to characters in these tiers, I generally see little difference. Characters like Obi-Wan, Mace, Ventress, Fisto, and others are all high-level Force masters with very comparable physical feats. There are a few exceptions where characters like these are shown with better speed or strength, as in the case with Anakin who every so often outperforms these characters, but otherwise, most of the time any difference is almost imperceptible.

Can you prove that Grievous improved? Unlike Kenobi, Anakin, and Ventress, Grievous is not a Force sensitive whose understanding and practice with the Force grew as the war progressed. His superhuman attributes stem from his cyborg anatomy, which leaves little room for him to bulk up, so to speak. Unless his processing was updated or enhanced during the war, I see no reason to assume that Grievous became more formidable as the war dragged on, at least as it pertains to speed and strength. Maybe he became more skilled with a lightsaber, but I would need evidence that his physical stats improved.

Labyrinth of Evil is no longer part of SW Canon, but in fairness, I actually just checked the OP and saw that it said "Feats from the movies only." So that was an oversight on my part too. With that said, let me answer this both in an EU context and a Canon one.

In the EU, Dooku mused to himself that Grievous has on occasion given him legitimate pause during sparring matches and pressed him to win, but it was never stated that Grievous is always this challenging. Neither is it stated that Grievous ever won. Despite Dooku admitting to only taking some hard-won victories, Dooku still always won if this narration counts for anything, and he has fought the General on far more occasions than Kenobi has, according to the below narration "extensive combat sessions." In the case of Obi-Wan and Grievous, Obi-Wan won in RotS, but there is no guarantee he would win as consistently as Dooku has.

And as to the general's combat skills, few, if any, Jedi would be capable of defeating him. There had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to outduel the cyborg.

--Taken from Labyrinth of Evil

In Canon, we have little information regarding Dooku's training with Grievous, only that Grievous was trained by the Count as per SW.com. By consequence, any comparison that can be made between Dooku and Obi-Wan through extrapolation on their respective duels with Grievous are moot in Canon.

Also, I know of no sources that indicate that RotS Grievous is "prime" Grievous. Nothing to my knowledge says that his combat abilities have been augmented through the course of the war.

This doesn't follow. Your reasoning behind elevating Obi-Wan to a level not too far behind Dooku is that Obi-Wan outfought Grievous, just like Dooku did. But Fisto did that as well. I understand that you're building your case under the premise that Grievous has grown in skill and/or physical power as time passed, but so far, that remains unproven. If you can cite a source for that, then this might be a viable conclusion, but if not, then this is a false premise.

Other than that, I fail to see how you can argue that one of the single most polished swordsman in the entire order, one whom Obi-Wan himself acknowledged in the RotS novelization is one of the best, is not close to Obi-Wan. I concur that Obi-Wan is better but not that Obi-Wan is that much better.

All of this is fair. Like I said, I can see any number of arguments being made for Obi-Wan's involvement here.

Kenobi should come to as a hinderance if anything.

Yoda VS Sidious is a stalemate, 5/10 either way.

Well we know he consistantly trained with Dooku, beyond that early TCW Grievous was beaten by Gungans, Ventress (whom he humiliated before), Kenobi, he couldn't kill Ahsoka twice or a softened up Eeth Koth, and he needed to use a blaster to kill a freshly knighted jedi. On the other hand late TCW/SoD/LoE/RotS Grievous dueled equally with Maul on a DS nexus, blitzed Kenobi, was stated by Dooku to be more powerful than Ventress, fought evenly with Mace Windu while hindered, and overloaded the best Soresu ever.

Improvement is quite obvious. It could be only skill or even physicals too. Vader upgraded his armor between the start and end of TFU II, I don't see why Greivous couldn't do that over 3 years. But that's speculative, since it was never noted, but it's not impossible.

Following the same line of thought you could say Fisto is close to Windu and Yoda too.

Obi-Wan's style is specifically designed for defence (Soresu if I remember correctly) and it is why he was able to beat grievous and Anakin (Who gave up hits because they were too aggressive).

He could hold off Palpatine long enough for Yoda to finish him off.

In the EU, yes, I agree. In Canon, this is uncertain.

He was more overwhelmed by numbers and boomas, which are ion-bombs that have downed AATs before.

Nevertheless, I agree that this is a weak showing.

If your goal here is to prove that Grievous' fighting powers were upgraded during the war, then you contradicted yourself. In Clone Wars Adventures: Rogue's Gallery, Grievous dueled with Ventress until she disarmed him with a Force push, and then he choked her out. Trouble is, you're also referencing TCW in addition to all of these other Legends sources, and this invites complications.

As far as I can tell, Grievous' fight with Durge and Ventress was much earlier in the war than Grievous' duel with Ventress on Dathomir, which was shown in season 3 of TCW. Dooku dispatching Ventress and Durge to test him was early on in his career with the CIS, only shortly after the Battle of Hypori where he originally revealed himself to the Jedi. This would mean that Grievous first defeated Ventress but was outfenced by her at a later time, and that runs directly contrary to your argument here that Grievous improved as the war progressed. So in reality, if you include both Legends and TCW as valid sources, then Grievous' performances against Ventress are inconsistent, and that is precisely why I find distinguishing TCW and Pre-TCW Grievous a much easier method of determining his capabilities. TCW Grievous has virtually nothing to do with EU Grievous as a character, let alone as a combatant. His whole history has been retconned. So in the EU including TCW appearances, Grievous has basically beaten Ventress and then later lost to her.

Treating TCW and the rest of current Canon as a separate continuity solves this contradiction. Canon Grievous losing to Ventress is a bit more understandable considering his other fights. Legends Grievous including TCW appearances just makes him inconsistent. It really makes no sense to regard Canon/TCW Grievous and EU/Legends Grievous as the same character when their showings are so disparate.

TCW Grievous lost to a small army of Gungans; EU Grievous killed a small army of clone troopers unarmed. TCW Grievous lost to Asajj Ventress; EU Grievous beat Ventress. TCW Grievous has trouble with duelists like Eeth Koth and Adi Gallia; EU Grievous defeated Shaak Ti and killed Adi Gallia. TCW Grievous lost to Kit Fisto; EU Grievous held his own against Mace Windu. TCW Grievous has few notable Jedi kills under his belt; EU Grievous has killed over one hundred Jedi.

If you want to argue for Grievous' abilities increasing after the Clone Wars, drawing from both TCW and EU novels/comics doesn't really work. You should do one separate from the other.

In TCW, Grievous and Obi-Wan have dueled one another multiple times, but the outcome varies. Sometimes, Obi-Wan takes the advantage, and other times Grievous does. In this fight early on in the series, for instance, Grievous has Obi-Wan on the run until Kenobi Force throws a disabled Magna-Guard at him, and then the two reengage one another later when the ship is being destroyed.

As far as TCW is concerned, in a fight between Obi-Wan and Grievous, either one can win. By RotS, it appears that Obi-Wan would win a majority.

This is a bit of a lowball, honestly. In their first duel, Grievous overwhelmed her and then forced her to flee rather quickly. In their second duel, which occurred in season 5 when Ahsoka was at her relative peak in TCW, she manages to repulse him briefly with the Force before he slams her on the ground, pushes her on the defensive, and has her retreating once again.

Who cares if Grievous failed to kill Ahsoka? He still outmatched her in their fights.

Hm, I find this debatable. Grievous and Koth were fairly even until Grievous was telekinetically knocked back, and then a Magna-Guard shocked Koth while Grievous did nothing more than saberlock him a couple times. Koth, being a Zabrak, would have a naturally high threshhold for enduring intense pain, but this was obviously of little worth against the electrostaff. However, considering that Grievous did nothing once the MG intervened but try to overwhelm him by brute strength, I fail to see how this undermines Grievous.

As with Ahsoka, you could argue that EU Grievous would do better and thus makes this a low showing, to which I agree, but this is another wonderful example of what I was discussing about the disparity between TCW and general EU Grievous.

Not sure what this is referring to.

TCW Grievous, early in the series, has gained leverage over Obi-Wan, and if we include EU sources, then early-Clone Wars Grievous has defeated Ki-Adi-Mundi, Aayla Secura, and Shaak Ti; killed three to four more Jedi in the General Grievous mini-series; drove off Ahsoka; easily destroyed groups of Magna-Guards; killed groups of Jedi in the Geonosian catacombs; and so on. By the way, Dooku stating that Grievous could challenge him was not exclusive to LoE; Dooku and Grievous never even sparred with one another in that book. Because of this, we know that Tyranus was referring to their training sessions earlier in the war. So we can add pressing Dooku in a fight to early-Clone Wars Grievous' resume.

Honestly, I see little to no evidence of any kind that Grievous became more dangerous as the war went on. Your case consists of listing TCW Grievous' low showings early in the war and then highlighting EU Grievous' high showings at the end of the war. Problem is, doing this neglects the timeframe; Grievous has remarkable showings early in the war that are tantamount to his showings later in the war if Legends sources are acceptable in this discussion. In TCW, Grievous' showings are more or less linear throughout, and the same can be said of EU Grievous. Neither one have substantially better feats earlier or later in their careers. Only when you combine the two do you find inconsistencies, and that is the very reason I treat the two as different characters, because for all intents and purposes they are.

So to summarize, EU/Legends/Pre-TCW Grievous has rather consistent showings throughout his career; TCW/Canon Grievous has rather consistent showings throughout his career; and composite EU+TCW Grievous has inconsistent showings throughout his career, sometimes performing very well or very poorly early on in the war. None of this lends itself to your argument that Grievous developed his abilities as time passed.

So far, I remain unconvinced.

Both are speculative frankly. There is no proof for either one. Grievous' abilities would be a bit more static than the Jedi/Sith's are because they possess the advantage of a connection to the Force that heightens the efficacy of all their training. On Grievous' part, he has to rely on normal training and experience for his skills, and for his bodily structure and power, he has to rely on the cybernetics he was outfitted with. Nothing that I am aware of indicates his physical attributes were enhanced, and nothing that I am aware of indicates that skills were enhanced by anything more than a slight margin.

@cs_zoltan said:

Actually, following the same line of thought I proposed, Yoda>Windu>Obi-Wan>Fisto, which does present a noticeable difference. But all in all, no, Fisto is not tremendously behind Mace or Obi-Wan as a swordsman. Yoda should be fairly more adept though.

In my opinion, I think people read too much of a gap between certain characters. For instance, Yoda is more skillful than Mace as a swordsman but not tremendously. Following the same line of thought, Obi-Wan is more skillful than Fisto as a swordsman but not tremendously. That was my point.

But if Palps fools around or toys around with Team 1, he definitely looses a limb or few in the process.

@gebruikersnaam112: Kenobi's specialty is defending against faster more aggressive attackers. That's how he beat Darth Maul and Grievous despite both being more trained than he is. He's not going to get speed blitzed.

Well I hate separating continuities, but fine. Even if you ignore all the EU Grievous feats, that still leaves SoD Grievous who could fight evenly with Maul on a nexus.

Not to mention that Fisto didn't actually defeat Grievous, he took one of his arm, then they dueled equally and then the Magnaguards came when they were in a bladelock. And if you regard the RotS novel as canon (I think it actually is when not contradicted), then Windu doesn't even think Fisto can beat Grievous by RotS.

Yes, but we weren't talking about their skill, but their speed. Fisto's reputation as a swordman has nothing to do with his speed relative to Kenobi.

Team. Obi-Wan distracts Sidious, and Yoda finishes him off

This by itself is far too little to draw the conclusion that Grievous' powers grew through the war. Grievous has also outmatched Obi-Wan earlier on, and Obi-Wan is not too far behind Maul in the same series.

True, but Fisto held the upper hand the entire time. He took one of Grievous' hands, leaped around his blows, hit him in the back, and was forcing him backward. Then the Magna-Guards intervened.

Besides, if you discount Fisto's win over Grievous, then you strengthened my case that early-Clone Wars Grievous is roughly equal to late-Clone Wars Grievous.

Judging by the same conversation, Mace doesn't seem to think he could beat Grievous by RotS either. So unless your opinion is that Obi-Wan>Grievous>Mace>Fisto, this establishes nothing.

This is not directed at you, CS, but the conversation between Mace and Obi-Wan in RotS pertaining to Grievous is one of the most misread conversations I've seen in recent memory. There are a welter of conclusions people draw from that, ranging from "Obi-Wan is a better duelist than Mace" to "Soresu is unbeatable." The context of the conversation was a comparison not between Mace and Obi-Wan or Obi-Wan and any other Jedi in general, but a specific comparison between Obi-Wan's chances of beating Grievous and any other Jedi's chances of beating Grievous. Mace never acknowledged that Obi-Wan was a superior swordsman to anyone else. He just said that Obi-Wan's skills provide him the highest likelihood of defeating Grievous once and for all.

Actually, in that quote, we were. What you replied to was this:

So that was explicitly about their bladework.

For speed, I thought we already settled that when we agreed that characters like Mace, Obi-Wan, Ventress, or Dooku all relatively parallel one another in Force speed, which I then attached Fisto to the list. If not, then I misunderstood you. Honestly, I still see nothing that puts Obi-Wan solidly above Fisto in combat speed. If there is a gap, the gap is negligible.

I'm not sure why you find it so hard to believe that Grievous can improve. Yes he's not a force sensitve, but they aren't the only one who can improve. Pre Vizla was trashed by a barely trying Kenobi in his first fight and gave a decent fight to Maul in his last.

Dooku was still teaching Grievous right before the Battle of Coruscant:

Yes, but that comment came out of nowhere. The whole dicussion was built around Kenobi's and Fisto's speed by using Grievous as a proxy. My only comment was that Kenobi's defense (pardon the language) shits on Fisto's.

I'm not sure what Fisto done that should put him in Kenobi/Dooku tier speed wise. If all it takes is to get the upper hand against canon Grievous to be as fast as them, then that's pretty inclusive list of people. Besides you seem to be of the opinion that EU Grievous shits on canon Grievous, so Kenobi and Dooku beating EU Grievous should make them faster than Fisto. If that makes any sense to you...some people don't like composite, but that's how I usually operate...

PS: I hope Wollf won't get a heart attack when he sees that you think Fisto is Dooku tier in speed :P

If we're not including external information, Obi-Wan and Yoda should win.

However, the nature of Palpatine's fighting style, specifically Dun Moch, diminishes his opponent's connection to the Force, which is part of the reason why he was able to defeat several Jedi so easily. If we're allowing external information, however, Palpatine wins. IMO the only person who had a chance of defeating him was Mace, due to Vaapad.