Obi Wan and Yoda vs Palpatine

It's not that I consider Grievous' improving terribly impossible, just lacking in explicit verification and most likely a meager growth. As far as I can tell, there are no sources that indicate his armor or cybernetics were upgraded, and while I already acknowledged that his fighting skills might have increased, there is little difference between his feats early and late in the war, which leads me to believe any gap is minimal.

Okay.

Well, if nothing else, I definitely agree that Obi-Wan is by far the better defensive fighter.

If The Cestus Deception means anything, then Fisto is significantly faster than AotC Obi-Wan. Yes, I know Obi-Wan's best speed feats were accomplished the closer he came to RotS, but AotC Obi-Wan was not lacking in speed by any means. And Fisto was running circles around him.

EU Grievous' speed feats are considerably greater than Canon Grievous', but this is again why I am regarding the two separately. And I think that is the source of much of our disagreement here.

Heh. I hope so too.

Truth be told, as we discussed earlier, with high-level characters like this, characters such as Mace, Obi-Wan, Dooku, Fisto, Ventress, and the like, most of their physical feats are so similar as to be virtually identical. There are minute differences here and there; for instance, I think Mace has much better mobility and jumping feats than most of the others listed do, but when gauging their individual strengths, will a slight difference in speed dramatically alter the course of a fight? Probably not, which is why with characters like these, I leave those alone. There are again exceptions to this, and there is also nothing wrong with wanting to delineate these issues according to their nuance. But personally, if you asked me who was faster between Obi-Wan or Fisto, I would more or less count them as equals.

Obi wan dies and Sidious murders Yoda

Yeah that's my bad. I don't like separating continuities and I try to align them as much as possible. That's why for me the Grievous proxy is flawed.

So we can agree to disagree on the ground of continuities :P

Yoda and Obi-Wan take it.

Team.

@zetsumoto: Defeating and intercepting the attacks of Grievous and Maul (with difficulty) is a totally different story from surviving even a few minutes against Sidious. Sidious, unlike the two you just mentioned, has a vast array of force powers at his disposal and is far more deadly with a saber and considerably quicker (Only amped Windu and Yoda have been able to keep up with Sidious. ).

To be fair to Obi-Wan, he'd perform better against Sidious than the likes of Fisto but I don't think by any significant margin. It'd still pretty much be a blitz. Sidious would find an opening and cut him down much in the manner he did to Fisto and if he couldn't do that he could just as easily blast him with a deadly force lightning burst at the earliest opportunity (which Obi-Wan may not even be able to intercept as it's pretty powerful). Obi-Wan's Soresu won't be able to stand up to Sidious and only delays the inevitable for a little while.

Also remember Obi-Wan is a character who even Dooku usually bests with relative ease (In ROTS he was out for the count in less than a minute even with the assistance of Anakin). If Dooku could overpower Obi-Wan in saber combat and ragdoll him with the force I don't see why Sidious couldn't either.

Maybe I'm underrating the value of Obi-Wan's defensive form here but I still think Sidious blitzes him . The gap between the two is too great to be compensated with a mere style of combat and Yoda is going to have difficulty saving someone so far out of their depth so many times. If anything Obi-Wan is a distraction and a liability to Yoda and would hamper his efforts to defeat Sidious as he just can't keep up with either of them in terms of power or speed.

I think he team would win. Obi-Wan is a smart fighter and would let Yoda take point. He would use his Soresu skills and "cut off the angles" as he did against Count Dooku.

Every move Darth Sidious would make, would have to be modulated in such a way to not leave himself open to two very skilled swordsmen.

Then there's the issue of elevation, Obi-Wan is tall and Yoda is short, this compounds the Emperor's problem of having to guard against both.

Understandable.

Fair enough.

Good discussion.

So, just to clarify, the general consensus seems to be that Obi Wan probably gets killed but might be helpful enough to allow Yoda to finish off Palpatine?

Soooo, Yoda vs. Palpatine? Yeah, that one goes to Palpatine... again.

@echostarlord117: Was their fight in ROTS not a draw, seeing as neither of them actually beat the other?

@silverrings: Technically... but on the downlow, Palpy was the real victor xD

@silver2467: Adding obi wan hurts yoda badly. Now yoda has to protect obiwan from a speedblitz and sidious can do what he did in tcw when yoda was overpowering him and hold kenobi hostage forcing yoda to tank the emepror's lightning

then robot chicken sidious gives his take on do or do not to kenobi...

@echostarlord117: the novelization completely contradicts the movie depiction where yoda was overpowering sidious before it ended in a stalemate

yoda clearly overpowered him in a simulation in a force vision though thats to be taken with a grain of salt.

Adding kenobi gives sidious a clear edge though.

Dunno about movies only, but EU Sidious one-shots Obi-Wan and takes on Yoda 6/10. Assuming this is RotS Sidious, of course. RotJ wins 9/10, and DE has the capabilities to stomp.

YODA: To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough, you are not.

/Thread

@depinhom:

1. He lost to Maul, PIS saved him

2. Count Dooku shrekt him... Twice

3. Anakin had him on the run the entire fight

Not really

@azronger: Why is ROTJ sidious stronger than ROTS? Any feats to Base?

@ffp: The Byss drain which I explained in another thread.

Yoda solos

Yoda solos 4-5/10 times. Team wins a solid majority for sure.

@azronger: Byss drain wasn't in De?

Either way, is canon ROTJ sidious stronger than ROTS? Why?

@ffp: Sidious started the draining of Byss shortly afer RotS, and continued it until his final death in DE.

Don't know about Canon, but in Legends, Sidious is definately stronger in RotJ, due to his Byss drain, which he himself stated as strengthening him.

The fact that Yoda on his own could be a superior duelist looking at the original RotS script and the novel IIRC. The little green guy would push Sidious to his very limits, so add Obi-Wan and this will only be amplified.

Team probably high diff

Yoda stated in revenge of the sith that Obi-wan was not powerful enough to take on Sidious alone. if the emperor started out with force lightning to catch Obi-wan out of balance, it would be safe to assume that he could be considered a non factor if the fight went in that direction. in another possible scenario Sidious would force choke Kenobi (he did it to disciplin Count dooku in the clone wars), if he somehow could find the time while defending from Yodas attack.

Not sure if Obi Wan should even be considered a relevant factor.

Yoda vs ROTS Palpatine is a split, 5/10.

Team for the slight majority

Sidious resorting to sabers means that he loses, but Yoda can take the majority against him in pure sabers anyways.

However, Palpatine is an intelligent fighter; Kenobi's going to likely be dismissed with a negligent force blast or a small burst of lightning, and I can't imagine that such a relatively small use of power on Palpatine's part is going to tip the scale to Yoda.

Still, it's mostly even, though I think Palpatine's slight power edge against Yoda is somewhat more useful than Yoda's saber edge.

Darth Sidious wins. Obi Wan is a liability.

Yoda still solos

Yoda cannot beat Palpatine by himself, even if you only take the movies into account.

Yoda solos. He is quite clearly portrayed as Sidious' superior in both the G-canon movie (Force, physical strength, speed) and the script (lightsaber combat, Force) the scene was created from.

Obi-Wan gets insta speedblitzed early on. He's no better than the three Mace brought with him, in fact arguably weaker.

Yoda can't win against Sidious. It's already decided, if Yoda knew he had any chance he would try another day, he has seen that it's pointless. And Obi-Wan won't make any difference here. They even mentioned this a potential Yoda and Obi-Wan vs. Sidious duel in the Novel, and Yoda said they still can't beat Sidious.

Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee-four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

"True," Yoda said. "But both of us apart, a chance we might create . . ."

- Revenge of the Sith Novel

So... Yoda vs sidious with a slight distraction. Yoda v Sidious is already a 5/10 split, with one of them possibly getting a .5 advantage. Add in a single distraction and it tips the scale over. I say team 6/10

Yoda could solo sidious. With obi wan they would surely win

@thebluedragon20: exactly and obi wan is far underrated, he is still one of the best lightsaber duelist ever just under yoda and windu

@erkan12: That’s why yoda disarmed sidious and had him running the whole fight.. Yoda was slowly gaining more and more confidence while sidious was slowly realizing he wasn’t going to beat yoda. Adding the master and best practitioner of the defensive form and one of the best duelist ever is just simply overkill

Duo. Obi-Wan's Soresu is too defensive for him to die immediately in a duel (he'd hold his own for at least a few seconds) and Palpatine can't afford to multitask, honestly. The little time that it'd take to kill Obi-Wan would give Yoda an opening.

@deutschkurzhaar: I would even go as far as to say he is slightly better than windu in pure skill. He just doesn't have the force power to elevate his stats to the same level.

@thebluedragon20: exactly, as well as that people often overlook his Force ability too. His midichlorian count is 15,000 (only a couple thousand less than yoda, and actually more than windu) he has just chosen to specialize in certain ways of utilizing the force. Such as mind control which he perfected

Yoda solos, this has already been decided. Yoda outdueled Sidious in ROTS and directly overpowered him in two Force contests. Obi-Wan's subjective statements are subjective.

Honestly my boi Obi criminally underrated.

He might not be the strongest but he certainly should be able to hard stall the strongest Jedi/Sith with his specialization in Defense.

If Obi wan can manage to avoid getting blitzed then I would favor the duo

Sidious' real power relies on his Force abilities, not his lightsaber skills. He even had to use his Force powers to beat Maul + Savage, and lost the saber duel to Windu. Once he uses his Force powers, Yoda has no answer for it. Which is why Yoda was outmatched, due to Sidious' Force powers, not because of lightsaber duel.

Obi-Wan is a non-factor in this fight, he is a 1 v 1 defensive fighter, his speciality is Soresu, not Ataru, which is why it didn't work against Dooku in RotS where he used Ataru in 2 v 1, and even Dooku removed Kenobi from the fight by using his Force powers. Sidious would do the same easily.

Sidious even did that to Anakin + Yoda (Anakin is a better offensive fighter than Kenobi) in a Force vision.

I don't think Obi adds anything to this battle, in fact, he could hinder Yoda if he is trying to protect him.

Yoda beats Sidious by himself