Dark Leo & Shredder vs. Kingpin & Daredevil

I believe his arrogance could and has caused his downfall. I don't believe even a peak human could successfully bear hug or overpower a 10 tonner in hand to hand, which I have seen scans of both happening in that fight.

It would be akin (but not quite, since the strength levels are even further apart here) to someone with the strength of my 8 year old daughter overpowering someone with the strength of a body builder. I just don't see it happening=)

That's a poor measuring stick if you ask me mate. If that were the case, then people like Daredevil, Cap, Panther, or Iron Fist should've never stood a chance against Peter or managed to hurt him in the slightest when it came to physical trauma. Clearly, that is not the case when it comes to skill but the strength and durability gap is too large for one portion to make a difference. By all means, the same could be said for anyone who strikes Logan with enough force. Considering his entire skeleton is virtually unbreakable, they should all have shattered limbs the instant their strike lands.

While Daredevil certainly has more feats and his radar senses will help him gain an edge against Shredder, you can't disregard that Shredder uses deadlier force and is stated by the writers to be a rough equal to Batman. Sure, Shredder doesn't have enough feats to evaluate it, but its there and should be considered. I think Leo is agile enough to eventually peg down Kingpin. Kingpin isn't slow nor weak (he looks fat but its actually all muscle), but I think Leonardo has more feats to back up his win over him.

I do remember Mateus Santolouco saying that about Shredder's skill, and I do believe Shredder is probably a very skilled fighter, but until I get a couple of more feats from him, I can't really see him giving a top tier fighter like Daredevil that much of a challenge really, but I do see what you mean about Leo being able to peg Fisk with his (confirmed) low level superhuman speed.

That's just it though, I'm not talking about actual damage or trauma in that post (I'll clarify the example and what I was getting at with that particular "measuring stick" as you called it). I am talking about the sheer strength used to strictly overpower him in that particular example. Eventually when I get home, I'll look at the source material to verify, but Kingpin literally overpowered Pete. That's not a matter of a better or more skilled fighter being able to hurt him in combat, that is a matter of someone who is supposedly peak human by all accounts overpowering someone who is in the 10+ ton range. If Kingpin grabs Spidey's hands/arms, Spidey should easily be able to handle that, instead of having to struggle like he was being overpowered. In a bear hug, he should be able to break it with his 10 ton strength easily. I can see no possible way to defend the validity of such a thing, as it just boils down to lazy writing.

As for actually hurting him, that is another discussion, but I did state that recklessness has and could cause his downfall (I stated arrogance in the post, but meant to type recklessness --that's what I get for typing while at work). Regardless, I still think with Pete's physical stats and power set, all around the fight was PIS ridden.

It's a good match up and the characters only attract people who actually know something about their capabilities. Fanboyism and preference hasn't played as much of a part as it usually does on a battle.

Maybe, I tend to think he'd be more of a threat to Daredevil, but I do see where you're coming from.

You bring up fair points all around, but I feel it's fair to state that Peter himself had a lot of power fluctuations in his early days. He was never really confirmed at a certain degree of strength at times outside of having the "proportional strength of a spider" and his feats were really minimal in regards to strength as opposed to recent years and the early eighties and on. Sure, it could've been poor writing that Fisk was able to catch Peter in a bear hug and temporarily over-power him, but that was the first battle if I recall correctly. The second one went in a completely different direction. If Back and Black had anything to prove, it was that Fisk was still confident in facing Peter after being the guiding hand in the murder of his Aunt and foolishly realized how much Peter restricted himself in battle not only against him, but against almost all of his villains. That speaks levels of his morality and truthfully, would it really be interesting if Peter went all out?

I have to be honest, I have been awake and working for over 36 hours at this point, but I'll be brief and say that while I see your point, I still find it to be lazy writing be it Spidey, Surfer, Flash, Supes and so on. Dulling of powers for the sake of plot has never sat well with me honestly.

Alright, time to try and get some sleep=)

@wyldsong: Get a good nights rest mate! You deserve it!

Lol...soon as my relief gets here who is late...sigh=)

Deserves a bump.

I'd still go with Team Marvel here. I feel like Daredevil could go against both of Team IDW if push came to shove.

DD solos