Dark Leo & Shredder vs. Kingpin & Daredevil

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k4tzm4n

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#1 k4tzm4n  Moderator
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Location

Rules

  • In character.
  • Begin 20 feet apart.
  • Standard gear.
  • Standard elimination rules apply.
  • Dark Leo isn't holding back.
  • I know it's easy saying "team x stomps" or something along those lines, but go ahead and give it a little effort, yeah? Elaborate. Say why you think a team wins. Get a good conversation going, even if you think it's one-sided.
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Wolverine008

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Kingpin and Daredevil take this IMO.

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k4tzm4n

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#3  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@wolverine08 said:

Kingpin and Daredevil take this IMO.

Becauuuuuuuuuse...?

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Deranged Midget

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#4  Edited By Deranged Midget

Excellent match up k4tz!

Personally, I might have to give a slight edge to the Marvel team here. I would undoubtedly give the IDW team the skill advantage but the problem is, I see Matt being more skilled than either Leo or Shredder and while Fisk is lacking in that level of combat, he's been shown to take on and give heroes such as Daredevil and even Spider-Man serious trouble in the past. His brute strength and resilience may play a LARGE factor here as no one in this battle is faster than Spider-Man and Kingpin has been able to tag Spider-Man as well as show off speed quick enough to surprise Cap and Spidey himself.

Considering Leo's tactics as of late, he's more of a quick, sneak up on yo face time of combatant which is sort of out of the window considering that they start in visibility of each other and Matt's radar sense would be able to counter any stealth that both Leo and Shredder may possibly attempt.

If anything, Fisk may go down but he's not going down without one hell of a fight and severely injuring either Shredder or Leo to give Murdock enough of a chance to take them both on and potentially come out the victor.

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Wolverine008

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@k4tzm4n: Because I think they are both superior fighters than the other team, and have superior physicals.

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k4tzm4n

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#6  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@deranged_midget: Thanks for getting your elaboration on. I agree Daredevil is the most effective character (though the TMNT team does claim Shredder/Splinter are at a similar level to Batman), however, when it comes to Kingpin, I tend to disregard his classic showings against Spider-Man. After all, that was an era where the likes of Punisher could contend with Peter in close proximity, and I think we both know how either would fare against the webhead in close range in the modern era.

...well, if Peter was still Peter, that is. OH YES I WENT THERE. Wilson's still a formidable dude, no doubt about it, but when it comes to his history with Spidey, I tend to say, "What history? Oh, you mean the time a pissed off Pete attacked him in prison?" :P

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Pokergeist

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#7  Edited By Pokergeist

@k4tzm4n: I lean on team IDW. They have IMO the better skill as well Cutting weapons to easily take out Fisk. Fisk is very skilled but fails to the blunt damage of DD. He would get rolled like the fat boy he is by Leo or Shredder with slashing weapons. IMO Leo would fail against DD, however Shredder could match if not surpass DD in skill. Since IDW have claim Splinter/Shredder like Snake Eyes is Batman level in CC.

Fisk being almost a non factor thanks to the Weapons of the IDW team, and Skill of IDW can beat DD in what will be a 2 on 1 match.

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k4tzm4n

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#8 k4tzm4n  Moderator

Interesting. Seems like @cadencev2 and @deranged_midget are at odds regarding Kingpin.

@k4tzm4n: Because I think they are both superior fighters than the other team, and have superior physicals.

What makes you believe Kingpin is more skilled than Shredder?

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Wolverine008

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#9  Edited By Wolverine008

@k4tzm4n:

I was referring to Daredevil being more skilled than both Leo and Shredder. I think that while Fisk isn't the fighter Leo or Shredder, he sheer physical abilities (which have allowed him to tag Spider-Man, beat up Daredevil, etc) will allow him to be a major player here, and aid the highly skilled Daredevil in a win.

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Lvenger

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What an impressive match up @k4tzm4n: Methinks this should be a Comicvine match of the week one day (hint hint) As for who wins, I do lean towards @cadencev2's line of thinking that the IDW team take a slight edge. If Dark Leo goes for Kingpin and Shredder fights Daredevil, that's where the fight can definitely go in IDW team's favour. Fisk may pose a physical threat but Leo was tanking and dodging blows from Slash and Krang in his fights with them. He also easily tagged Krang too and managed to wound Slash morals on. Morals off, he seems more likely to dominate just like he did with his brothers and against Karai too (From what I recall of her villain's title, she noted Dark Leo had chances to use lethal force against her but didn't) He's beaten Karai morals on too so a no holds barred Leo will be more than willing to slice and dice Fisk into a mess. Might get wounded by Fisk but I see him cutting the cake here.

As for Shredder and Daredevil, whilst I'm very hesitant to believe the TMNT's claim that Shredder/Splinter are on Batman's level since they have no experience writing a Batman title, Shredder is at least the equal of Daredevil in skill if not his superior. He should be more than able to keep Matt on the backfoot whilst Leo finishes off Fisk. Together, they should overpower Matt easily IMO.

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Wolverine008

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@lvenger:

Why would you say Shredder is Daredevil's equal in fighting skill?

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#12  Edited By Lvenger

@wolverine08: These are from Secret History of the Foot Clan. The person soloing the samurai army isn't the Shredder BUT the Shredder is the reincarnated version of this guy. It's confirmed in the story and Shredder discovers this in the story too. So he's the reincarnated version of a man who soloed an entire samurai army

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And he kills these last two guys with one leg. One freaking leg after beating an entire army. Not to mention he can match skills with Splinter who defeated one of the best swordsmen in Ancient Japan during his past life and can easily own the Turtles. So that's why I think he's at least the equal of Daredevil in skill.

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Wolverine008

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@lvenger:

Ah, I see. I personally consider Daredevil an equal to Batman in fighting skill. I remember a couple of months ago we're we debated if Mateus Santoluco's claim that the top fighters in IDW (Shredder and Splinter) are equals to Batman is valid. After thinking about it, I think those two should be slightly below people in Marvel and DC like Daredevil and Batman. If we put DD and Shredder in a sword fight together, I definitely think Shredder wins, but I think that in H2H, Daredevil is the superior combatant.

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@wolverine08: We did, I remember that debate we had. Fair enough but you have to admit Shredder can stall Matt long enough for Leo to pull a lethal strike on Fisk. He was easily tagging Krang in their fight and Krang was said to be a strong, fast opponent by Leo and Mikey.

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#15  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator
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Team 1

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#17  Edited By Wolverine008

@lvenger:

Ah, but here's the thing, Fisk has tagged Spider-Man before, and has surprised even Captain America with his speed. Combine that with his insane raw strength, and I don't think Leo is going to make quick work of Fisk. I believe that Leo should pull out a victory on Fisk, but it won't be quick. So I think that in the time Leo fights Kingpin, Daredevil should be able to take out Shredder hand to hand, and Leo can't handle both Kingpin and Daredevil at the same time.

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Pokergeist

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@lvenger:

Ah, but here's the thing, Fisk has tagged Spider-Man before, and has surprised even Captain America with his speed. Combine that with his insane raw strength, and I don't think Leo is going to make quick work of Fisk. I believe that Leo should pull out a victory on Fisk, but it won't be quick. So I think that in the time Leo fights Kingpin, Daredevil should be able to take out Shredder hand to hand, and Leo can't handle both Kingpin and Daredevil at the same time.

Thats all cool and all, however I have Comic Scans right now on me in a Ghost Rider Comic (Will post Later) of 4 generic ninjas practice fighting Fisk. Fisk beats 3 and the fourth one slices him with a sword. then stops attacking Fisk for fear of retribution. He could have killed fisk.

Leo >>>> Fisk.

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#19  Edited By Deranged Midget

@k4tzm4n said:

@deranged_midget: Thanks for getting your elaboration on. I agree Daredevil is the most effective character (though the TMNT team does claim Shredder/Splinter are at a similar level to Batman), however, when it comes to Kingpin, I tend to disregard his classic showings against Spider-Man. After all, that was an era where the likes of Punisher could contend with Peter in close proximity, and I think we both know how either would fare against the webhead in close range in the modern era.

...well, if Peter was still Peter, that is. OH YES I WENT THERE. Wilson's still a formidable dude, no doubt about it, but when it comes to his history with Spidey, I tend to say, "What history? Oh, you mean the time a pissed off Pete attacked him in prison?" :P

See that's my thing. Splinter and Shredder are arguably the top dogs of the TMNT-verse, no doubt about it. But where the difference lands is the gap between them and what is considered the best after them. While over in Marvel, Daredevil has consistently gone up against the best in addition to combatants far superior to him in regards to physicals like Spider-Man. The larger portion of feats and their consistency is why I would always put a top level Marvel/DC such as Bruce, Matt, or Cap over Shredder and Splinter.

Now with Kingpin and the example of a morals off Peter, we've clearly seen the differentiating factor when he lets loose and how he casually fights. This was even further represented with Ock in issue 700 when he took over Peter's body and was absolutely stunned at the realization of how much Peter held back his power when he fought against him after nearly ripping off Gargan's chin with a single blow. That has been the one consistent thing with Peter from day one even until the point of his death when he reserves his morals.

I don't think Fisk's feats should be disregarded because he's remained relatively consistent throughout the years as opposed to other characters who've had revamps and what-not and partially because regarding current Fisk, he hasn't had any real combat feats since well... the Silver Age. Obviously, fighting against Leo and Shredder would be evidently different to taking on Cap, Daredevil or even Peter and I even stated originally that I do believe he would most likely be first to fall but not without going down without one hell of a fight or severely injuring one of the others. He's recently shown strength sufficient enough to brutally murder and rip apart members of the Hand as well as willfully blocking ninja stars with his arm with no sign of discomfort whatsoever. I'm not saying this means other bladed weapons will be useless but it proves he can at least hold his own against some of their weaponry.

Some more feats as to show relative consistency as I stated before:

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@wolverine08 said:

@lvenger:

Ah, but here's the thing, Fisk has tagged Spider-Man before, and has surprised even Captain America with his speed. Combine that with his insane raw strength, and I don't think Leo is going to make quick work of Fisk. I believe that Leo should pull out a victory on Fisk, but it won't be quick. So I think that in the time Leo fights Kingpin, Daredevil should be able to take out Shredder hand to hand, and Leo can't handle both Kingpin and Daredevil at the same time.

Thats all cool and all, however I have Comic Scans right now on me in a Ghost Rider Comic (Will post Later) of 4 generic ninjas practice fighting Fisk. Fisk beats 3 and the fourth one slices him with a sword. then stops attacking Fisk for fear of retribution. He could have killed fisk.

Leo >>>> Fisk.

True. I do agree with you that Leo should beat Fisk one on one, but it won't be quick or a piece of cake. Fisk's strength and speed should allow him to hang with Leo for a while, and I think by that time, Daredevil will beat Shredder (who I think is an inferior hand to hand combat to Matt). This is a pretty evenly matched battle, but I'm slightly leaning towards Daredevil and Kingpin for the aforementioned reasons.

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@lvenger:

Ah, but here's the thing, Fisk has tagged Spider-Man before, and has surprised even Captain America with his speed. Combine that with his insane raw strength, and I don't think Leo is going to make quick work of Fisk. I believe that Leo should pull out a victory on Fisk, but it won't be quick. So I think that in the time Leo fights Kingpin, Daredevil should be able to take out Shredder hand to hand, and Leo can't handle both Kingpin and Daredevil at the same time.

You did see Shredder soloing an army of samurai didn't you? And you do know he can easily handle the Turtles who have confirmed superhuman physical stats, something Matt doesn't have? Shredder is by no means an inferior to Daredevil in H2H combat. In fact, Matt's skills aren't all that great now I think about it. Only a few styles to his name and he's only hung with some good martial artists. He hasn't actually beaten them. So Shredder will be more than able to hold him off whilst Leo finishes off Kingpin. A serious Leo will actually take the lethal option more often and will slice Kingpin down to size. If Shredder hasn't beaten Matt by then, he'll be no match for Shredder and Dark Leo. You play Matt up a bit too much IMO. He's nowhere near Batman's level of skill let alone any of the other top martial artists in comics.

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#22  Edited By Wolverine008

@lvenger:

So the guy who has beaten or stalemated, Captain America, Black Panther, Wolverine, Iron Fist, and Deadpool (who all have physical advantages over him) and has been consistently called one of the best martial artists in the Marvel U, and beat 100 armed Yakuza gang member in less than 3 minutes using only his martial arts skill isn't a very good fighter?

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@wolverine08: Name which ones he's beaten and which ones he's stalemated. I want proof to back up your case otherwise your arguments are unsubstantiated.

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@lvenger:

He's beaten both Deadpool and Wolverine, and stalemated with Black Panther, Cap, and Iron Fist.

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@wolverine08: Are there any conditions you're excluding here? Was Iron Fist not using his chi? Was Panther holding back? As for Cap, they've never fought long enough to determine a winner, especially not in their last fight. Can Daredevil solo armies of ninja without the Beast inside him? Wait you've said he beat 100 Yakuza in under 3 minutes. Fair play. But Deadpool and Wolverine aren't too skillful in comparison to Panther, Iron Fist or Cap though.

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Wolverine008

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@lvenger: Deadpool and Wolverine aren't too skillful in comparison to Panther, Iron Fist or Cap though. What? I can agree with you about Deadpool, but like most people I see, are lowballing Wolverine's fighting skills. Logan has been stated to have mastered all the world's martial arts (including 22 forms of kung fu), is a master samurai, has beaten Shang Chi with ease, beaten Iron Fist, beaten Cap, and has stalemated Black Panther, and has been stated on numerous occasions to be one of the Marvel U best martial artists. Matt beating him is an incredible feat.

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Deranged Midget

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@lvenger: Here's the fight where Matt stalemated Danny until he was forced to utilize his chi:

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@wolverine08: He beat Iron Fist in a sparring match with certain conditions. No claws for Logan and no fists for Danny. Did you forget that perchance? He was then beaten by Squirrel Girl so Bendis was writing exceptionally poorly that day. And Cap's beaten Logan on plenty of occasions too. Logan's admitted it as well that Cap gave him quite the beating in their WW2 days and in modern day too. Did he stalemate T'Challa recently? If so that's BS because T'Challa is a league above Wolverine in terms of skill already and has superhuman enhancements from being King of the Dead. If Logan stalemated this version of T'Challa, I call bull there. And I'm still unlikely to see how Logan can stalemate T'Challa on pure skill without his healing factor, claws and physical stats coming into play.

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@lvenger: Here's the fight where Matt stalemated Danny until he was forced to utilize his chi:

Fine but all I'm saying is that the Shredder is far from being behind on Matt on skill. Fisk can be sliced to pieces by Dark Leo if he goes for the lethal shots right off the bat and Shredder can hold off Matt handily given his stats and comparison to Splinter as a top martial artist. Fisk is more likely to go down to Dark Leo's sword than Shredder is to Matt.

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#30  Edited By Pokergeist

@lvenger: Deadpool and Wolverine aren't too skillful in comparison to Panther, Iron Fist or Cap though. What? I can agree with you about Deadpool, but like most people I see, are lowballing Wolverine's fighting skills. Logan has been stated to have mastered all the world's martial arts (including 22 forms of kung fu), is a master samurai, has beaten Shang Chi with ease, beaten Iron Fist, beaten Cap, and has stalemated Black Panther, and has been stated on numerous occasions to be one of the Marvel U best martial artists. Matt beating him is an incredible feat.

BS...

Oh Im sorry that was Wolverine before he lost his HF again. He had great skill awhile ago, now and days he gets own easy by BP as his current character depends on his HF too much.

Just saying.... Also Skrull Spider Woman like beat Logan 3 times during the New Avenger runs. Hell the CANON Ennis runs of Wolvie have him stalemated by Punisher all the time who has peak human stats.

So Wolverine skill as the best depends on the writer. ON AVERAGE he is decent but nowhere the best.

As for Fisk, the guy is at a MAJOR disadvantage against Leo or Shredder. You all forget, DD and Spider Man do not go for kills and they have Blunt weapons. Leo is going for kills and has Slashing Weapons.

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Generic Human Samurai slice Fisk up. Leo would roll Fisk.

Fisk is almost a non factor here unless he has a sword which he has no feats with!

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@lvenger:

He beat Iron Fist in a sparring match with certain conditions. No claws for Logan and no fists for Danny.

I wouldn't exactly refer to that as a sparring match. Regardless of whether Danny restricted his Chi shouldn't negatively impact or perceive that his skills were impacted in anyway, Matt made mention of that. Matt forced him to a point where he had to utilize his chi to gain the upper hand on Matt which speaks more for the latter's skill than anything else.

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@lvenger:

Like I said, you're going to the stereotype that most people have that Wolverine can't fight without the claws and healing factor. He's beaten Iron Fist. Plain and simple. The Squirrel thing is a running gag within the Marvel U. She's beaten both Doctor Doom and Thanos. Are you going to lowball them too? He stalemated T'Challa before he got the King of the Dead enhancements, beat Cap ( I do admit he and Cap pretty much have an equal track record against each other, made quick work of Shang Chi (who has mastered all of the world's martial arts plus mystical ones and was bred from his mother's womb to be a living weapon) without his claws, is a master samurai, has mastered all of the world's martial arts (including 22 forms of kung fu), and has been called one of the Marvel U's elite fighters. Daredevil beating him is an incredible feat and testament to his incredible fighting skills.

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I wouldn't exactly refer to that as a sparring match. Regardless of whether Danny restricted his Chi shouldn't negatively impact or perceive that his skills were impacted in anyway, Matt made mention of that. Matt forced him to a point where he had to utilize his chi to gain the upper hand on Matt which speaks more for the latter's skill than anything else.

I'm not denying that but you forget what Shredder is capable of and that being more than enough to hold Matt off whilst Leo slices through Fisk.

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@cadencev2: How exactly does that scan downplay Fisk? If anything, that only goes to aid Fisk's resilience, speed and precision with managing to ignore the slash as if it weren't even there and then proceed to catch the Samurai's katana with ease and then toss him like a ragdoll. Clearly, Leo and Shredder are both far more skilled than that single Samurai but that scan seems to be rather counter-productive on your part.

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@wolverine08: He beat Iron Fist whilst Danny restricted his chi and didn't use his fists. So Logan beat a handicapped Iron Fist. Plain and simple. Logan's skills have been portrayed very inconsistently and he's been stalemated by Veranke/Spider-Woman along with Punisher too. So whilst Logan might be skilled, he reverts to simplistic fighting a lot under most writers' pens which are the feats we use for combat applications.

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@deranged_midget: It shows that Fisk can be tagged and when the foe is as skilled and lethal as a no holds barred Dark Leo, Fisk will feel that far more than he did that fodder samurai's slash

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@lvenger: No I didn't. I personally stated and acknowledged how team IDW clearly has the skill advantage over team Marvel with the addition of stating that Shredder, alongside Splinter, is one of the top dogs in their universe. The only differentiating factor I lay between the two is the fact that Matt has had more feats to fish from and most of them remaining consistent against some of the best combatants in the Marvel U as well as some who are far superior in physicals i.e, holding his own against a pissed off Spider-Man after the death of DeWolfe.

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@cadencev2: How exactly does that scan downplay Fisk? If anything, that only goes to aid Fisk's resilience, speed and precision with managing to ignore the slash as if it weren't even there and then proceed to catch the Samurai's katana with ease and then toss him like a ragdoll. Clearly, Leo and Shredder are both far more skilled than that single Samurai but that scan seems to be rather counter-productive on your part.

Only to you then friend.

What I see is a Huge, Fat, Fleshy Target with no way to block the Dual Blades Leo is wielding. He had trouble with 5 generic fighters with self claim Masters titles. Leo is not only super human to those humans, he is leagues better, and has the skills near Shredder and Splinter.

This is proof Fisk will not be able to hang with his Girth and Fists.

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@lvenger said:

@deranged_midget: It shows that Fisk can be tagged and when the foe is as skilled and lethal as a no holds barred Dark Leo, Fisk will feel that far more than he did that fodder samurai's slash

To which no one argued. The point that you guys seem to be making is that Fisk becomes utterly useless the instant he becomes tagged by bladed weapons, which that scan clearly proves otherwise as it does nothing to hinder his ability to stop a katana with ease and dispose of the samurai with a single throw.

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@lvenger: No I didn't. I personally stated and acknowledged how team IDW clearly has the skill advantage over team Marvel with the addition of stating that Shredder, alongside Splinter, is one of the top dogs in their universe. The only differentiating factor I lay between the two is the fact that Matt has had more feats to fish from and most of them remaining consistent against some of the best combatants in the Marvel U as well as some who are far superior in physicals i.e, holding his own against a pissed off Spider-Man after the death of DeWolfe.

Matt won't be able to take out Dark Leo or Shredder straight away though. If whoever Fisk is fighting slashes him, that takes him out the fight and makes it 2 to 1 and Matt can't beat the both of them. The outcome of this fight all depends on Fisk and I believe he's liable to go down to whoever faces him.

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@lvenger said:

@deranged_midget: It shows that Fisk can be tagged and when the foe is as skilled and lethal as a no holds barred Dark Leo, Fisk will feel that far more than he did that fodder samurai's slash

To which no one argued. The point that you guys seem to be making is that Fisk becomes utterly useless the instant he becomes tagged by bladed weapons, which that scan clearly proves otherwise as it does nothing to hinder his ability to stop a katana with ease and dispose of the samurai with a single throw.

Leo isn't a single samurai though. He has skills and feats to his name. Fisk isn't going to be able to dispose of Leo as easily. Not a foe with superhuman stats, no morals and a willingless to slash him multiple times.

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Deranged Midget

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Only to you then friend.

What I see is a Huge, Fat, Fleshy Target with no way to block the Dual Blades Leo is wielding. He had trouble with 5 generic fighters with self claim Masters titles. Leo is not only super human to those humans, he is leagues better, and has the skills near Shredder and Splinter.

This is proof Fisk will not be able to hang with his Girth and Fists.

Again, I myself claimed that Shredder and Leo are most likely taking down Fisk, multiple times even. I never argued that point so there's no need to repeat that fact. I merely give Fisk the benefit of the doubt here as he's clearly being underrated and not in terms of capability of defeating Shredder or Leo, but resilience, determination and potential to land a few hits or even severely injure one of the two if he gets a hold of them. Considering any of his fights with Peter or even Cap, that wouldn't prove fruitful for the IDW combatants.

As for having "trouble" with the Samurai which you claim generic and they probably are in comparison to Shredder and an unrestricted Leo, he seemed to dispose of them quite easily, especially the last one who he allowed to attack him with his guard down only to counter and defeat with a single move.

@lvenger said:

Matt won't be able to take out Dark Leo or Shredder straight away though. If whoever Fisk is fighting slashes him, that takes him out the fight and makes it 2 to 1 and Matt can't beat the both of them. The outcome of this fight all depends on Fisk and I believe he's liable to go down to whoever faces him.

No he won't, I never argued that. Again, I stated the advantage the IDW team holds in terms of skill. A fresh 2 on 1 would put Matt at a clear disadvantage without a doubt, but what I'm doing is simply iterating that Fisk is being tossed off as nothing more but a meat shield for the former. He is undoubtedly going to taste defeat by either Leo or Shredder but he's more than proven the capability of holding his own against super-human opponents and a resilience to a bladed weapon that took left no discomfort or hindered his ability to finish the fight.

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Pokergeist

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@deranged_midget: I think Fisk Guard was up. He is battling others, and then gets slash. Nothing suggest he let his gaurd down and the Samurai never pressed the attack till Fisk said "Bring it b****." which is a very poor showing against a master of blades.

Anyway I give props to Fisk if this was a Fist to Fist fight. He is like Bane in that regard. No weapons against Blade Masters.... I cant even give him props here.

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@lvenger:

No. Every top tier fighter in comics get low showings, Black Panther, Batman, Wolverine, etc. If we judged them on those, they would all suck. You say Wolverine beating a handicapped Iron Fist doesn't count? Well then, the fight I mentioned where Wolverine beat Cap, Logan had been fighting for days without sleep, food, or rest so his healing factor's efficiency SEVERLY dropped, and Cap destroyed the ligaments in Wolverine's hands during that fight, so Wolverine had a crappy healing factor and no claws and he still put Cap on his back and down for the count. We can continue to dance this dance, but feats prove my statement that Wolverine is an elite fighter, and Daredevil beating him is a testament to just how incredibly skilled fighter he is.

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@deranged_midget: He can hold his own against unarmed superhuman opponents. Not those carrying sharp objects and a willingness to use them lethally.

@wolverine08 And I have the feats to prove Shredder and Leo are very skilled too and more than capable of taking down Fisk. Matt can't handle the both of them. You've convinced me he beats them one on one but not with Fisk as a partner in this tag team battle.

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@deranged_midget: I think Fisk Guard was up. He is battling others, and then gets slash. Nothing suggest he let his gaurd down and the Samurai never pressed the attack till Fisk said "Bring it b****." which is a very poor showing against a master of blades.

Anyway I give props to Fisk if this was a Fist to Fist fight. He is like Bane in that regard. No weapons against Blade Masters.... I cant even give him props here.

I was referring to the Samurai who slashed at him. He let his guard down afterwards, egging on his opponent to "finish him", feigning defeat and then effortlessly blocking the attack and easily disposing of him.

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@deranged_midget: Thats my point. The Samurai was holding back, Leo is not waiting for Fisk, he keeps attacking till your down. Looking for openings on the move. Then added Fisk shows he can catch 1 Weapon, Leo has 2 Weapons and Shurikens. Fisk from what I see cannot compete for more than a speed bump IMO.

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@lvenger:

That's where Kingpin comes in. While DD is a better fighter than both Shredder and Leo individually, I agree with you that he can't take them both together. I think that Fisk's insane speed and strength can allow him to hang with (not beat) Leo long enough to let Daredevil beat Shredder and team up with him on Leo. Like I said, Katz made an extremely even matched battle here, but I'm just slightly siding with Daredevil and Fisk for the reasons I stated above.

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@deranged_midget: btw, I really look at the gear and effectiveness of said gear more so than skill, I think Leo is way more skilled than Fisk, however it can be argued Fisk is more skilled. In the end I base Fisk as a non factor due to factors that matter in a real fight.

  • Target Size of Fisk
  • Lack of Armor and any real Defense for Fisk
  • Slashing/Stabbing Weapons that Fisk is not resistant to as he is with Blunt Damage
  • Fisk lack of Weapons and reach in combat
  • Showings of average dojo masters getting 1 up on Fisk.
  • 2 Slashing/Stabing Weapons and Shurikens > 2 Bare Hands
  • Turtles own Super Human stats.

This all matters to me from realistic view.

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@lvenger:

That's where Kingpin comes in. While DD is a better fighter than both Shredder and Leo individually, I agree with you that he can't take them both together. I think that Fisk's insane speed and strength can allow him to hang with (not beat) Leo long enough to let Daredevil beat Shredder and team up with him on Leo. Like I said, Katz made an extremely even matched battle here, but I'm just slightly siding with Daredevil and Fisk for the reasons I stated above.

No, as I showed above.