300 Spartans ( from 300 ) vs 300 Elves ( LOTR )

Helms Deep is at the end of a small valley and built in to a mountain, so a funnel effect with bonus of strong fortifications. The hot gates were the narrowest point on a plain approximately 330ft wide. The Spartans superior skills enabled them to repel wave after wave of Persians. I've no doubt they (the Spartans) like any sane person would have preferred Helms Deep to defend.

rofl. This isn't funnelling.

This is funnelling

Among many references Tree Beard mentions the breeding of the Uraki in the Two Towers.

More specifically?

The Uraki are ultimately defeated by the men of Rohan, who are regular men nothing special.

...The uruks were overrun by descending cavalry, and later destroyed by the trees of fangorn.

The Elves were wiped out despite strong fortications at Helms Deep. Reverse the situation and they would have had no answer to the Persian hordes as they didn't use there shields to the same effect as the Spartans. The Spartans real advantages were the shield walk (the Phalanx), superior fighting skills having been bred for war and there 7ft spears for which the Persians had no answer.

Reverse situations, they'd be in the pass, where being vastly superior warriors, they can cut down persians individually without an issue. They are also far, far superior archers compared to persians.

The Elephants in the Return of the King weren't taken out by the Elves, Legolas took out one the rest were killed by others.

...The battle in return of the king was humans vs orcs.

The Spartans killed admittedly small ones along with a Rhino without Arrows or horses.

lol. The elephants slipped due to the terraign and bodies.:

The dialogue itself mentions it:

Xerxes dispatches his monsters from half the world away. They're clumsy beasts... ... and the piled Persian dead are slippery. 

300 would have ended in minutes if they were not in the passage. The elephants alone are enough really.

The facts remain, the Elves couldn't handle the 10,000 in the movie for more than one night. The Spartans took the fight to over 300,000 Persians for more than two days.

You keep repeating numbers, when the movie quite explicitly established that the number advantage was handled mainly by the funnelling effect. When that advantage was removed, they were slaughtered in minutes.

Oh and by the way Legolas didn't actual form a part of the Elves company so technically he wouldn't ne on the battle field anymore than Lord Elrond would be!

Not elrond, Haldir. But either way, if legolas is here, he's enough to win this on his own.

Given the overwhelming desire to add Legolas to the 300 Elves to face the Spartans, what say we up the odds and include the Spartans fabled antecedent Hercules in their number? Hercules tasks are legendary and he is a demigod. Hercules forefather of the Spartans would stomp Legolas and 300 Elves by himself!

Spartans all the way!

Given the overwhelming desire to add Legolas to the 300 Elves to face the Spartans, what say we up the odds and include the Spartans fabled antecedent Hercules in their number? Hercules tasks are legendary and he is a demigod. Hercules forefather of the Spartans would stomp Legolas and 300 Elves by himself!

Hercules didn't appear at all, neither in 300 nor in rise of the empire... He's featless in the franchise.

Yeah, 2,000 of Rohan's greatest fighters (the best horsemen in Middle Earth) with the advantage of being cavalry on horseback, with the element of surprise outflanking the Uruk forces, and the aid of thousands of Huorns.

Watched the film then did you? Oh no as you are referring to the novel. The basis is based on like for like film for film. Either way the book doesn't portray the picture you paint. The garrison at Helms deep was fortfied with the men of Rohan, they didn't ride out till the end, Gandalf appeared with 1,000 foot solders turning the tide of battle and the trees had moved over night with the Uraki who fled into them never being seen again. The Uraki were superior to Orcs (stronger and could fight in daylight but still hated it) but they got pawned by a much smaller force of humans. The Spartans went on to defeat the Persian army despite being vastly outnumbered and the Persians did have excellent horsemen in far greater numbers than the Rohan could even imagine. At the penultimate battle in the Return of the King the Rohan were all but wiped out by a Orc force that was minute in comparison to the Persian Army.

Spartans win!

@mrpolarbear: We are using the movie versions for this thread, so everything I said is correct.

spartans win, they have abs

In the movie version the Rohan fled to the safety of Helms deep. They were attacked on route by orcs on wolves. King Theoden instructs all able men to be armed to defend the fort. This includes old men and the older boys. A company of over 200 Elves come to the aid if the Rohans and are led by Haldir. These Elves die in the first night of the Uraki offensive when they blow a hole through the walls of the fort.

The Trees aren't inolved in the battle, we see the Ents later with Pippin and Merry when they attack Isingard which is now pretty much undefended.

On the final morning of the battle Aragon persuades Theoden to ride out and face the Uraki, we hear the horn being blown as they do so. Soon after Gandalf appears with over a 1000 Rohan riders and the Uraki are overwhelmed.

the uruks are ultimately finished by ents and huorns when they retreat to fangorn.

How is this 4 pages? Elves stomp through clearly superior stats. If we assume a normal elf is even half as agile and skilled as Legolas, they slaughter.

@princearagorn1:

Not in the Movie.

Yes, the Huorns do make an appearance in the battle in the Extended version, which means it's canon. Everything else is exactly what I said.

...Yes, in the movie...

Aragorn/Eomer keep the riders outside fangorn for that very reason.

@lunacyde:

So basically the opposite of what you said and we are now using an extended version? Its beside the point anyway as the 10,000 lost to a smaller force of mere mortals but took out the Elves in the process. Ergo Elves failed where humans succeeded. Spartans win

The Rohirrim also had the advantage of Gandalf's magic as soon as the fight began, which blinded the Uruks with Pikes and gave the Cavalry the momentary advantage they needed to break the Uruk-hai lines without having to worry about the pikemen.

The elves are orders of magnitude more powerful than the men of middle-earth, which themselves are near-superhuman in strength. All elves are capable of magic, and have heightened senses. The strongest elves were able to go 1 on 1 with Balrogs, or Morgoth himself. This is NOT.CLOSE.

@princearagorn1:

You mean the riders that were banished by Theoden and Gandalf goes to get help from. You are do far left field it's unbelievable. Face the simple facts the Elves aren't that great, they got beaten early on in the film version of the battle and the Spartans lasted longer defending an area twice the width of a football pitch! Spartans still win Elves lose badly!

But that's wrong, just like everything you've posted in this thread so far.

1. Yes, the extended version of the movie is canon.

2. The human force was 10x larger, accompanied by Huorns and a powerful Wizard, were mounted on horseback, had the element of surprise, and outflanked the Uruk forces when they weren't expecting it. You can't just leave out the context because it's expedient to your argument.

@emorytoss17:

No it isn't quite the opposite. Go watch the movie and get your facts right.

I linked directly to the movie?

I need to get my facts straight? You're trying to argue that the hot gates were more than 200 meters wide when a simple viewing of 300 will show you that's blatantly false.

I'm just going to write you off as either a troll or a child at this point, because everyone ITT but you knows you're wrong.

@lunacyde:

The human force was 10 times larger and on horse back? Aided by a powerful wizard? The human first was smaller, Gandalf appeared at the end with Rohan in horse back. You really are way off, I don't kniw what planet your on!

Wow, try to keep up.

He's saying that 1, the human force (the riders of rohan) was 10 times larger than the elves that were holding the line at Helm's Deep. Gandalf was with them, and used his magic to aid them.

@emorytoss17:

Your the troll. Look up the hot gates for a measurement 330ft! You have no argument.

He has always been using movie version, and still is. Not opposite, it's the same.

Its beside the point anyway as the 10,000 lost to a smaller force of mere mortals but took out the Elves in the process. Ergo Elves failed where humans succeeded.

Elves were not nearly as numerous as rohirrim, and that was a cavalry charge descending from high ground.

Spartans win

That's not going to become true, no matter how many times you repeat it. Seriously, you have said it over a dozen times already - it's like you're trying to reassure yourself.

Congratulations, you're trolling.

The force of 2,000 Rohirrim was 10x larger than the Elven force of 200 footsoldiers and archers. That is who I was speaking of. If you are referring to the men in Helm's Deep most of them died, and the Elves all died because they took the front lines and were the first wave of defense against a much larger force of enemies who had broken down the fortresses defenses and were pouring in. in the same sitauation the Spartans would have died too.

@emorytoss17:

No I was querying another post. I suggest you turn the lights off before your parents find out your still up. There is no point discussing this with you any further as your a windup merchant with no argument.

The real hot gates are not the Hot Gates in the film, any more than the guy with crab claws who works for Xerxes is a real historical figure. The hot gates in the film are as wide as about 10 spartans standing in the phalanx.

Please, just give up. You're embarrassing yourself.

@lunacyde:

I agree that the human force was bigger than that of the Elves in the film, my point was that they didn't last that long against 10,000 Uruki. Whereas 300 Spartans lasted over 2 days against 300,000 Persians!

@princearagorn1:

I'm not reassuring myself of anything. I don't dispute that the Rohin outnumbered the Elves. But I stck to the fact that the Spartans lasted longer against greater numbers and odds. Thus as I keep concluding the Spartans win this!

Completely different situations. Comparing apples to oranges.

@mrpolarbear Can you at least admit that the Uruk-hai are, at the very least, on the level of the Immortals much more than the slave army Xerxes uses. They are much larger, much stronger, and have better weapons and armor than anyone in 300. The 300 spartans would not have lasted a night against 10,000 immortals with siege equipment.

@lunacyde:

How? 300 Spartans bearing the brunt of an assault from 300,000 Persians can quite easily be juxtaposed with the Elves facing the 10,000 at Helms Deep. In fact it's the best comparison for this thread, otherwise we might as well conclude the winner could never be known unless they actually fought which will never happen!

Because of the terrain which fully suited their fighting style. On open ground, they were slaughtered in minutes.

@mrpolarbear because the Uruk-hai are much stronger than the slaves Xerxes was using. You're going in circles.

@emorytoss17:

I agree that they would be better than tge basic soldiers in the Persian Army, but the point I keep making is how long the Spartans held out for. It was a lot longer than the Elves and against greater odds.

The Spartans were in a much more advantageous position. They could literally form a wall of shields across the entirety of the Hot Gates. Only a small number of persians could attack them at any one time. They faced enemies who were nothing compared to the Uruk-hai. Uruks do not tire, they do not show fear, they are faster, bigger, stronger, more skilled, and have better gear than 99% of the Persian army.

@princearagorn1:

Who the Spartans? Not really they were outflanked. Don't forget at the end of the movie they meet the Persians on open ground with a still far inferior force and we know how that ended.

Also the Elves at Helms Deep in the film got wiped out when the wall was breached. There would still be s funnelling if the Uruki forces but they were overwhelmed by the sheer pressure of their numbers. I'm still with the Spartans on this.

@lunacyde:

The Uruk-Hai were still beaten by men who could tire and were outnumbered. The Spartans were bred for war, the Uruk-hai were relatively inexperienced. If the Elves could bear the brunt of the Uruk-Hai attack but the humans managed to win then the Spartans would win this. If the Uruk-Hai at Helms Deep face the Persian Army of 300,000 they wiukd have fled!

Interesting debate and thanks for your responses. Time to sleep goodnight!

@mrpolarbear:

Who the Spartans? Not really they were outflanked. Don't forget at the end of the movie they meet the Persians on open ground with a still far inferior force and we know how that ended.

Exactly. Without the terrain, they'd not have lasted more than a few minutes at best.

Also the Elves at Helms Deep in the film got wiped out when the wall was breached. There would still be s funnelling if the Uruki forces but they were overwhelmed by the sheer pressure of their numbers. I'm still with the Spartans on this.

The uruks had already entered the wall breach, and covered enough area to nullify the funnelling - enough had entered to outnumber the elves already:

To translate the situations in 300 terms, persians already crossed the hot gates, and fought on open ground. And aragorn commanded a retreat as theoden told him to.

Why are we using movies feats for the elves. that means the hobbit movies and that means that Legolas kills them all with ease :( and @mrpolarbear please stop trolling and lying.

i am new so don t bash me. but can we really assume the spartans have superhuman abilities compared to reallife since it is a story a spartan is telling his fellow spartans. so maybe he is unreliable. just asking

Welcome to vine, and you can relax :)

but can we really assume the spartans have superhuman abilities compared to reallife since it is a story a spartan is telling his fellow spartans. so maybe he is unreliable. just asking.

When we say 'movie version of 300', we already accept that things happened as it was shown on-screen. Real life spartans, or geographic measurements, have no relation there. For example, we can't say if leonidas yelled 'this is sparta' in real life, or what kind of personality he had, and the fighting style he used. But since we are using the movie version, we accept that's how he was, and he will fight in the same manner - at least for the purpose of the thread.

I don't recall crazy feats for regular elves in the movies, they looked like good ole movie fodder to me. Legolas was ridiculously OPed by Peter Jackson, though, and would make a difference but the thread is not Legolas vs 300 Spartans.

@leito: It might as well be since Legolas is fighting with the elves. They weren't fooder in the hobbit movies.

A movie where a noble leader like Dain Ironfoot mounts a pig should not be considered cannon ;)

Elves stomp badly on flat, neutral terrain.

How did this make it to four pages? The Elves stomp so hard it's not even funny.

Elves also they have magic and more experience