@Pyrogram said:

@royers13 said:

@Pyrogram:

Ok, so I don't know where you get your ideals of law from. The avengers declared war. So when you are a soldier in war and someone is attacking you, chances are you are going to kill them. Heck, I'm from Arizona, if someone is threatening your safety and you give them ample warning that you will shoot them, if they do not stop, you have full legal rights to shoot to kill. He killed professor X in self defense, NOT MURDER!!! especially in times of armed conflict.

The USA actively took action against them, So while i guess you can say he has duel citizenship he is the leader of a sovereign nation who responded to actions taken against Utopia.

Yeah I say until, because when you snap under the power of the Phoenix you don't really have any form of control.

And again, considering it as a war again, Wakanda was harboring enemies. Look at the United States again, when we have the power to do so we go in with force and weapons if Enemies of the state are being harbored there.

and you say false imprisonment of the Avengers and how they did not attack in self defense? Ok, again, the avengers attacked them first and sparked the whole event. After the Phoenix 5 had actually saved a few of the Avengers lives, The avengers broke into utopia again and took Hope. So again, if you seriously think that they did the whole false imprisonment and assault charge thing. Then I guess we should arrest the entire United States Military.

I PM;d you the other thing without realizing as well.

If you say no laws are broken you have no idea of the law, and if we use law in the UK he committed murder. He is not a US citizen so cant use self defecne as a defence, and if he is a US citizen its treason to fight the GOV, so he comits eitherway.

He's been imprisoned by the US government, your comment about the UK is irrelevant to the story but probably helps some commentors understand your perspective.

@Pyrogram said:

@soduh2 said:

@Pyrogram said:

@royers13 said:

And? attacking the US either way is illegal. Citizen even more So. Taliban attacking the US in terror attacks is in "self" defence, but its still a war crime.

Which only looks worse for Captain America, who invaded Utopia (after Dark Reign it was a sovereign nation) and only got hit after refusing to leave. At that point it was self-defense for Cyclops, because he warned Cap. Now when Cyclops had the complete Phoenix force within him and destroyed much of the world that could be considered "insanity".

@soduh2: Cap did break laws, but that does not excuse cyclopys. he only went insane at the end. and even so, he would go into an asylum. not be set free

@Pyrogram: If it's in self defense it's not murder, at least in the US and Canada. They were a big enough threat to Cyclops and his property that the killing wouldn't be ruled as murder.

Utopia is a sovereign nation, it's not treason. He became the leader of a different nation and as such when the US attacked him he retaliated. It's again justified in international law.

Most of the Avengers captured were POWs. Cyclops in no way should be tried in a US court as his actions weren't related to just the US. That would be like demanding the Prime Minister of the UK to stand trial in the US for war crimes. It's just not done.

Charges against Cyclops:

• Putting the world at risk during the coming of the Phoenix
• The attack by a member of the Phoenix Five against Wakanda
• Wrongful incarceration of Avengers team members
• Torture of Avengers team members
• Murder of Charles Xavier
• Near-destruction of Earth as the Dark Phoenix including all property damage, injury, and deaths as a result of his actions during that time

As the leader of the Phoenix Five he is absolutely culpable in their actions, which is why Wakanda and torture are up there even though that was mostly Namor and Magik respectfully.

@TheCrowbar said:

@Pyrogram: If it's in self defense it's not murder, at least in the US and Canada. They were a big enough threat to Cyclops and his property that the killing wouldn't be ruled as murder.

Utopia is a sovereign nation, it's not treason. He became the leader of a different nation and as such when the US attacked him he retaliated. It's again justified in international law.

Most of the Avengers captured were POWs. Cyclops in no way should be tried in a US court as his actions weren't related to just the US. That would be like demanding the Prime Minister of the UK to stand trial in the US for war crimes. It's just not done.

It is done in international courts.

Oh and the whole Wakanda thing can technically be considered retaliation. Wakanda's leader was one of the people that attacked Utopia. Act of war, The International courts, if going by true protocol would take this into great consideration if any charges were brought up about the attack on wakanda. Plus all of you are acting like he's just a small gang leader in some random country. no he's a Leader of a nation. Everything included it is a war that was started. So basic laws to not imply. All things considered these are laws of war.

@Pyrogram: I think you need to look at the history of the world. Specifically on wars. When you have that and see what countries can and will do when threatened by foreign powers you'll understand how all acts, except for Magik's torture. We're entirely legal based on all fronts. Then look at the whole point of view where Cyclops is quite literally a nuclear weapon. Since world war two, except for terrorist attacks, no military force has attacked the United States because we have Nuclear Bombs. The reason is, if you anger a super power and continually try to destroy it, it will likely press the button to launch missiles. The Avengers we're doing that and finally pressed the button causing, pretty much what the whole world feared during the cold war.

Finally, look at the history of the Marvel Universe and its heroes. If you are saying that they would put Cyclops in an asylum or prison for life, because he made the decisions under the influence of an outside source, THE PHOENIX FORCE, then what about the other half of the Marvel Universe that have all done similar things. As we've all pointed out Scarlett Witch, who has been walking around after her crimes. Heck the Marvel Universe is full of people who have committed horrible crimes, even intentionally, and they all get forgiven. Captain America is only pissed because he, at least he should, knows that he was hugely responsible for causing Cyclops to break down into the Dark Phoenix.

All I have to say is, based on the precedence of both the Marvel Universe and the real world, Cyclops would only need a good lawyer to point it all out and then turn to press charges on Captain America and the Avengers who in almost all reality are at fault. Heck, there was not a single problem with the Phoenix 5 until the avengers broke into Utopia, AGAIN!!!!, to take Hope.

Cyclops is only being blamed because they managed to push him over the edge, and when he finally snapped they're response was, "I didn't know that if we continually attacked someone who is already trying hard to control the unstable Phoenix Force that they might come close to destroying the world." That's like if either the Soviet Union launched a single Nuclear Missile at the US and said, "We only shot one, I didn't think that would cause them to shoot their entire armory at us."

Seriously. Precedence rules on all fronts, Cyclops shouldn't even be in prison.

@fodigg said:

@soduh2: @royers13:

Charges against Cyclops:

• Putting the world at risk during the coming of the Phoenix
• The attack by a member of the Phoenix Five against Wakanda
• Wrongful incarceration of Avengers team members
• Torture of Avengers team members
• Murder of Charles Xavier
• Near-destruction of Earth as the Dark Phoenix including all property damage, injury, and deaths as a result of his actions during that time

As the leader of the Phoenix Five he is absolutely culpable in their actions, which is why Wakanda and torture are up there even though that was mostly Namor and Magik respectfully.

THIS poor golden boy scott how far from grace did he fall??? pretty da#m far

but who knows if jean was alive maybe the ave vs x-men would never have happened

@royers13: I'd go so far to say Cyclops is only being blamed because he accepts responsibility (even though he has a defense).

@royers13 said:

@soduh2:

Please, he's only being blamed because The Avengers are being bitches and don't want to admit they are the reason shit went so far out of hand. That last part where Captain America says "Don't you Dare try to turn this into a win!" makes me really hope that when Cyclops goes to trial the whole world points at the Avengers to say, "You were the Idiots that started the whole conflict, and in decided to throw rocks at a Nuclear Weapon!"

this

@royers13

Seriously. Precedence rules on all fronts, Cyclops shouldn't even be in prison.

We agree, execution is the path.

Cyclops's crime is not killing all Avengers.

@royers13 said:

@Pyrogram: HAHA! you're funny. This was fun.

:) No problem mate. I suppose you are right he broke no massive laws, as he has excuses, but in real life ( its a comic remember lol ) he would be tried for something.

@Pyrogram said:

@royers13 said:

@Pyrogram: HAHA! you're funny. This was fun.

:) No problem mate. I suppose you are right he broke no massive laws, as he has excuses, but in real life ( its a comic remember lol ) he would be tried for something.

Real life doesn't have cosmic entities manipulating people's minds.

if this event was some ploy to get the readers to side with Cyclops and make Cap look IGNORANT TO ALL HELL, then good job Marvel, plan succeeded.

Cyclops gets attacked by the entire marvel universe, loses friends as they side opposing him for hypocritical reasons, his girlfriend admits to cheating on him with the biggest marvel man whore and wants to go into glorious detail, his "dad" wants to lobotomize him, and you don't think you'd lose it? Yeah.

@Kurolegacy said:

@kasino said:

@soduh2: no he didn't but threats and capability are enough to be taken down

he does have possession of something that can destroy everything

understand I'm totally for Cyclops in this, he is protecting his people the best he can while the Avengers rarely has helped them but i can understand as having a your own nation and an army with destructive force it could be seen as threatening to the rest of the world

While I can understand the notion of protecting his people, he did take things a bit too far once he became the host of the Phoenix, especially when you think about it enough. Back when he established pax Utopia, he also had the P5 dispose of the world's weapons. While initially that may seem like something to enforce peace as people no longer has the means of engaging war against each other, when you think about it you realize that in addition to that, he's also taken away humanity being able to defend itself should it need to come to that while he has an island of super powered beings.At that point, he was holding all of the guns.

Thank you, reasons why I love you!!

Namor's attack on Wakanda was entirely justified. The Avengers (Black Panther included) invaded the sovereign nation of Utopia, took (almost) the entire world's population of mutants (an already oppressed and almost completely genocided minority) prisoner and took away (some) of what set them apart as a unique minority. The Avengers crossed a line into being outright evil, pure and simple. Anything from execution, to invasion, to Magik's Limbo prison is justified in retaliation for what the Avengers did on that beach. Frankly, it should be impossible for a rational person to see the Avengers as anything other than utter fascists.

@loki100: I agree with you. But Namor should have stuck with Cyclops plan to make the Avengers look like the bad guys, isolate them and Banish their name and what they stand for..Because they were behaving very super hero like. Namor killed innocent ppl when he attack Wakanda he started a war by attacking civilian of the greatest City in Marvel...Big mistake.....But Cyclops crimes is obviously crimes against Humanity. I see wrong on both sides not so much Cyclops because the Avengers pushed a Cosmic powered Mutant into doing what he did.

@fodigg said:

Charges against Cyclops:

• Putting the world at risk during the coming of the Phoenix
• The attack by a member of the Phoenix Five against Wakanda
• Wrongful incarceration of Avengers team members
• Torture of Avengers team members
• Murder of Charles Xavier
• Near-destruction of Earth as the Dark Phoenix including all property damage, injury, and deaths as a result of his actions during that time

As the leader of the Phoenix Five he is absolutely culpable in their actions, which is why Wakanda and torture are up there even though that was mostly Namor and Magik respectfully.

Just wanted you to know that I acknowledge your post even though the Cyclops' fanboys/girls won't. Clear examples of why Cyclops' should be brought up on charges kind of confuses some.

@lykopis: That post was acknowledged. Should I respond to it in depth? It will only parallel our PM.

@fodigg said:

Charges against Cyclops:

• Putting the world at risk during the coming of the Phoenix
• The attack by a member of the Phoenix Five against Wakanda
• Wrongful incarceration of Avengers team members
• Torture of Avengers team members
• Murder of Charles Xavier
• Near-destruction of Earth as the Dark Phoenix including all property damage, injury, and deaths as a result of his actions during that time

As the leader of the Phoenix Five he is absolutely culpable in their actions, which is why Wakanda and torture are up there even though that was mostly Namor and Magik respectfully.

-Putting the world at risk? Well wouldn't the avengers idea of keeping a phoenix hope in a room also count as a risk? There's no way there wouldn't be any possible risks from phoenix

-I see where you're going with that. However at the end of the day, Cyclops did not give that order. He could be tried, but because someone didn't follow orders I really don't see it being his fault.

-Explain

-Torture? That again was one of his members.

-Murder of Xavier from self defense. Tried in court.

-I haven't seen any news of people getting killed in the destruction, I might just be blind but I don't recall reading that in the damage any citizen died. And if you're gonna bring up property damage, let's talk about everything that's ever gotten destroyed by any hero in the marvel universe.

@soduh2: You should share some of it -- would have been good to see on here.

who can defend Cyclops in the court

Matt Murdock or Jennifer Walters

Cyclops biggest Crime is not being as popular as Wolverine, Spider man or the Avengers after the totally epic movie, his biggest crimes lie in the fact that fox holds his movie rights and they needed a villain to push the Movie Franchise that made them billions in the comic book world. The way it looks now is that they may of totally hit gold and made him more popular then ever and not just pushed there movie franchise but got another wolverine out of the package

@fastolfe said:

Cyclops gets attacked by the entire marvel universe, loses friends as they side opposing him for hypocritical reasons, his girlfriend admits to cheating on him with the biggest marvel man whore and wants to go into glorious detail, his "dad" wants to lobotomize him, and you don't think you'd lose it? Yeah.

This.

Also, the whole AvX thing pi**es me off. I thought it was readily apparent by everyone with a working brain until I came to these forums. Here's why:

1. Those of us who are familiar with the Phoenix Force know that it can't be stopped without its purpose being completed or fate being involved. Iron-Man and his ilk were incredibly arrogant and quite stupid to try and stop it. Normally these characters wouldn't be this stupid, but they needed a catalyst to get all these characters to kick each other's as**s, didn't they? Silly.

2. Iron Man managed to "split" the Phoenix Force through his tech. Silly. However, it worked by splitting it up the force into five X-Men instead of Hope. So, this whole thing was started because of the Avenger's arrogance and need to control everything that can conceive of. And crappy writing.

3. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Marvel likes to show us this again and again. So, the Phoenix Force slowly changes the five. Unfortunately as they are defeated by the arrogant, idiot Avengers (for the wrong reasons), the Phoenix's avatars get even more unstable.

4. The X-Men pretty much know what's coming. Beast especially should have known, and what it meant. At a certain point (like when there was just a few of them left), Cyclops ceases to be Cyclops completely and is the Phoenix's warped version of him. It would have happened to any character pretty much. After all, they didn't blame Jean for anything she did - they blamed Phoenix/Dark Phoenix. Why Beast turned around and blamed Cyclops at the end of the story is quite frankly extremely poor writing for that character and throws out all comics history between them. It was absolutely retarded. And that's just Beast - the fact that most characters are blaming Cyclops for the Phoenix's ambitions and actions angers me.

5. Wolverine, Cap, Iron-Man... they all need to be shot for this BS. Really. I was actually looking forward to logical motivation at the beginning of the story, fully expecting to be on the Avenger's side. Oh well. No logic for their side. At all. They even went to kidnap Hope AFTER the Phoenix was already there. Silly.

6. Cyclops was right. Period.

@cbnnexus said:

@fastolfe said:

Cyclops gets attacked by the entire marvel universe, loses friends as they side opposing him for hypocritical reasons, his girlfriend admits to cheating on him with the biggest marvel man whore and wants to go into glorious detail, his "dad" wants to lobotomize him, and you don't think you'd lose it? Yeah.

This.

Also, the whole AvX thing pi**es me off. I thought it was readily apparent by everyone with a working brain until I came to these forums. Here's why:

1. Those of us who are familiar with the Phoenix Force know that it can't be stopped without its purpose being completed or fate being involved. Iron-Man and his ilk were incredibly arrogant and quite stupid to try and stop it. Normally these characters wouldn't be this stupid, but they needed a catalyst to get all these characters to kick each other's as**s, didn't they? Silly.

2. Iron Man managed to "split" the Phoenix Force through his tech. Silly. However, it worked by splitting it up the force into five X-Men instead of Hope. So, this whole thing was started because of the Avenger's arrogance and need to control everything that can conceive of. And crappy writing.

3. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Marvel likes to show us this again and again. So, the Phoenix Force slowly changes the five. Unfortunately as they are defeated by the arrogant, idiot Avengers (for the wrong reasons), the Phoenix's avatars get even more unstable.

4. The X-Men pretty much know what's coming. Beast especially should have known, and what it meant. At a certain point (like when there was just a few of them left), Cyclops ceases to be Cyclops completely and is the Phoenix's warped version of him. It would have happened to any character pretty much. After all, they didn't blame Jean for anything she did - they blamed Phoenix/Dark Phoenix. Why Beast turned around and blamed Cyclops at the end of the story is quite frankly extremely poor writing for that character and throws out all comics history between them. It was absolutely retarded. And that's just Beast - the fact that most characters are blaming Cyclops for the Phoenix's ambitions and actions angers me.

5. Wolverine, Cap, Iron-Man... they all need to be shot for this BS. Really. I was actually looking forward to logical motivation at the beginning of the story, fully expecting to be on the Avenger's side. Oh well. No logic for their side. At all. They even went to kidnap Hope AFTER the Phoenix was already there. Silly.

6. Cyclops was right. Period.

lol i like this guy :D

Cyclops was right.

That said, the Shi'ar did blame Jean and Rachel, to the point where they massacred he entire Grey family out of precaution and spite. And that's why the Shi'ar deserve every bad thing that happens to them. Whether it's Vulcan, Cassandra Nova, the War of Kings or the Annihilation Wave, there can be no justice so long as a single Shi'ar lives. I guess government entities (like the Avengers) are a lot less forgiving alien possession than the X-Men are.

Mind you, if somebody goes insane and commits genocide because she's completely insane angry that her father is angry at her brother for manipulating her into altering the universe, well they're the real victim here, wouldn't you say? But Hank Pym will carry the stigma of at one point hitting Jan until the stars burn out. Screw you, Avengers.