C2E2 2010: Jeph Loeb

Sapphire Warlock

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#1 Edited By Sapphire Warlock

This is the guy who killed the Ultimate Universe with "Ultimatum." Excuse me why I go drown in my resentment...

14 years ago

TheBlueAngel93

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#2 Edited By TheBlueAngel93

Jeph is great, I love his work, New Ultimates has been good so far, looking forward to #2! :D

Great interview, G-Man!

14 years ago

Decept-O

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#3 Edited By Decept-O

I've yet to understand the hate towards Jeph Loeb. I've read ONE issue that I didn't like from him but the rest have been entertaining. Granted, they've been the Hulk titles but I've been having F-U-N reading the books, and that's something that seems to be missing from most comics these days.

He mentioned some awesome artistic talent (McGuinness, Kubert--woo-hoo!) but the bell ringer for me, and the name I was hoping to hear----DALE KEOWN!! YES! I love his rendition of Hulk, I think it's possibly the best one in my opinion. ALL of the talent he has lined up will be frikkin' awesome and I hope, God willing, I will be around for it when this book sees the light of day!!!

@G-Man: You need a haircut, bro. (I'm just envious because you HAVE hair!)

14 years ago

gmanfromheck

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#4 Edited By gmanfromheck

@Sapphire Warlock: You have to keep in mind, no one writer has the power to walk into Marvel or DC and tell them they're going to kill everyone. Editorial sometimes comes up with the idea and the writers have to implement them. It doesn't make sense to blame a writer for what the 'higher ups' dictate.

14 years ago

Son_of_Magnus

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#5 Edited By Son_of_Magnus

Jeph Loeb's work with Batman is more than enough to make me always love him

14 years ago

defaultdefaultdefault

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#6 Edited By defaultdefaultdefault

@G-Man:
i was just walking around outside a minute ago thinking about your great interviews and wishing you
had a more in depth interview with Jeph than the quick tease, as im in love with his current stuff...
thank you! between this and the MVC3 trailer my day has been officially made.

14 years ago

No_Name_

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#7 Edited By No_Name_

@Son_of_Magnus said:

" Jeph Loeb's work with Batman is more than enough to make me always love him "

I totally agree!

14 years ago

Golden Cod

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#8 Edited By Golden Cod

@Decept-O:

I really hated his work on the Ultimates line. Mark Millar reinvented the Avengers in a really realistic way and then Jeph Loeb turns them into 2D caricatures of their regular selves. He ignored what made the characters interesting and introduced new characters for the sake of his mysteries. Did we need to have a mini-mystery about the Black Panther's identity? No, it added nothing to the story. Why in the world is Thor talking in Shakespearean English? Thor knew about his heritage before and didn't think it was necessary, why now? Why do a 360 on the personality of Pyro the mutant? The guy goes from being a friend of the X-Men to being a stock crony of Magneto. Why is Valkyrie suddenly in the mix? There's no information on how she got there or why she's not Sif. What did Doom gain out of corrupting Ultron? Having a puppet that can destroy the Ultimates? It doesn't match the personality given to Doom in Ultimate F4.

Ultimatum was just as bad. Loeb stated that he felt that the status quo of the Ultimates universe needed to be shaken up and he intended to do that by killing off characters. Oh yay, more dead people to resurrect in future issues!

14 years ago

timrothsays

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#9 Edited By timrothsays

He's so enthusiastic for comics and his works! Thanks for the great interview

14 years ago

Nyogtha

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#10 Edited By Nyogtha

He is really hit or miss with me. An example is I really loved Hush. But I despised the Wolverine evolution arc he did.

14 years ago

Dipic

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#11 Edited By Dipic

@Sapphire Warlock said:

" This is the guy who killed the Ultimate Universe with "Ultimatum." Excuse me why I go drown in my resentment... "

14 years ago

goldenkey

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#12 Edited By goldenkey

@Golden Cod said:

" @Decept-O: I really hated his work on the Ultimates line. Mark Millar reinvented the Avengers in a really realistic way and then Jeph Loeb turns them into 2D caricatures of their regular selves. He ignored what made the characters interesting and introduced new characters for the sake of his mysteries. Did we need to have a mini-mystery about the Black Panther's identity? No, it added nothing to the story. Why in the world is Thor talking in Shakespearean English? Thor knew about his heritage before and didn't think it was necessary, why now? Why do a 360 on the personality of Pyro the mutant? The guy goes from being a friend of the X-Men to being a stock crony of Magneto. Why is Valkyrie suddenly in the mix? There's no information on how she got there or why she's not Sif. What did Doom gain out of corrupting Ultron? Having a puppet that can destroy the Ultimates? It doesn't match the personality given to Doom in Ultimate F4. Ultimatum was just as bad. Loeb stated that he felt that the status quo of the Ultimates universe needed to be shaken up and he intended to do that by killing off characters. Oh yay, more dead people to resurrect in future issues! "

You just said what I've been asking for a long time. I think he destroyed the modernization of what Millar did with characters. I wasn't a fan of the Avengers before I read The Ultimates, and since I am now more familiar with the 616 versions I like the little differances between the 2 worlds. Loeb just went in and basicly made them the 616 again. I will say I enjyed Joe Mads artwork on Ultimates Vol 3, and wasn't all not satisfied with the story. He even had them look more like their 616 counterparts. Other then the change in Hawkeyes appearance, what was the point. Im suprised Nick Fury didn't walk in and was white again. Let's hope Millar does it again.

14 years ago

Decept-O

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#13 Edited By Decept-O

@Golden Cod:
This is where I have to claim ignorance because I've wanted to check out the Ultimate titles but I've not done so yet, so I can't give any input regarding his work with that line. It seems a few readers aren't very happy regarding some of his work on Ultimates yet others love it, so I don't know. If the Ultimates line is a different take on the Marvel U., then why not shake things up and make things happen that readers don't expect--or necessarily like?

I've read the bulk of the Hush storyline in Batman, I failed to add, and I was blown away with the majority of it, although I found a few minor holes with some things, but that's a given with comics. How many people really love that storyline? Quite a few.

Regardless, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and while you may not have liked what he did to the Ultimates line, I hope you don't miss out what he's doing with Hulk, because it's been a fun read and a lot of things are happening with plenty of great moments you don't expect. Just my opinion.

14 years ago

ArtisticNeedham

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#14 Edited By ArtisticNeedham

I have a theory, I posted in the 30 sec clip of Loeb
but here it is again:
My theory on Who Red Hulk is:

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

I think Red Hulk is actually Thunderbolt Ross, and the Thunderbolt was that was working with
M.O.D.O.K. and was killed by Red Hulk was really a clone.
I think M.O.D.O.K. experimented on Ross and turned him into the Red Hulk and made a clone to throw off suspicion (which is why Red Hulk has no mustache while Ross had a mustache, because they weren't the same person). When Red Hulk killed Ross he was only killing his own clone.
Red Hulk talks about battle plans and strategies, and talks about Bruce and his hatred of him like he knows Bruce. Saying Bruce brings nothing but death and horror. Also when Red Hulk reveled his true identity to Bruce, Bruce already knew and wasn't shocked.
Plus, Ross has been a major character in Marvel for so long, even if he isn't really the Red Hulk, he wont stay dead long.
I also think Red She Hulk might be Betty Banner, or a clone of Betty.

And that is my theory.

14 years ago

mrrpm01

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#15 Edited By mrrpm01

Why are people down on him for the Ultimate universe deaths???? He is a WRITER he is not the CEO but a writer!!!!! Ok let me play devils advocate he walks to his mailbox and has the rough draft for marvels plans and says to himself "NO WAY" so he calls marvels' powers that be and says "I am not going to kill them I refuse!!!" marvel says ok no prob and moves on to the next writer or fires him. What people need to understand is that when decisions are made they aren't rolls of dice or "Let's piss people off" decisions, so don't go on a hate parade because of choices that were made in a piece of work but look at the whole body and them make informed objective opinions. Oh and BTW I love his work with the Hulk!!!

14 years ago

spiderguylll

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#16 Edited By spiderguylll

I don't get it...What about Jean Grey? I didn't get the new issue yet

14 years ago

daveydavey

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#17 Edited By daveydavey

Nice Guy

14 years ago

Dipic

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#18 Edited By Dipic

@Decept-O said:

"
@Golden Cod:
It seems a few readers aren't very happy regarding some of his work on Ultimates yet others love it"

"A few" people "aren't very happy" but "others love it"? Lol? I don't know a single person who has followed the Ultimate universe and loved Ultimatum or what Loeb did to the Ultimates.

14 years ago

TheBlueAngel93

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#19 Edited By TheBlueAngel93

@Son_of_Magnus said:

"Jeph Loeb's work with Batman is more than enough to make me always love him "

Agreed
Batman: Hush is by far one of the best Batman story I have ever read.

14 years ago

HaloKing343

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#20 Edited By HaloKing343

He's so nice. Everytime you interview him, he's got such a nice attitude. I like him. I mean yeah, his work is on both extremes. I don't want to be rude, but I think its safe to say that Ultimatum was not the best book. However, he's produced tons of other awsome stuff. Batman Hush, Red Hulk, Ultimate X... the list is big. So just cuz' he's had a few mistakes, I don't think you guys should bash him. He's a great writer so calm down.

BTW, I'm a big fan of Heroes. That's like one of my favorite shows. Shoutout to Jeph!

14 years ago

brewski420

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#21 Edited By brewski420

this guy is a great writer. he takes characters down roads that no one else would, and thats what sets him apart from the rest. isnt that what makes a writer great?

14 years ago

Golden Cod

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#22 Edited By Golden Cod

@Decept-O:

Change isn't inherently good or bad.   It's how the change is being executed that's important   Millar basically said wait, if we thawed out a supersoldier from WWII, wouldn't he have difficulty adjusting to modern views or serving under a black man (Fury)?   If a nurse from Norway claimed to be a fictional god, wouldn't he be locked away for insanity?   If superpowers existed, wouldn't it trigger the next arms race and cause the US to create a special unit?   Millar created the Ultimates around the question of if supers really existed how would they fit into modern day society and how would they change the power dynamics of the world.   Since realism is what made Ultimates successful, it becomes the trait that defines the series.

Loeb hurled realism out the window.   He didn't include the subtle elements that made Millar's Ultimates plausible.   He didn't play off of any of the traits that made the Ultimate characters distinct from their 616 selves.    Instead of writing an elaborate mystery like he did with Hush, Loeb gave us a half-cooked mystery where the ultimate perpetrator wasn't even included in the story! At least with Hush we're introduced to Tommy Elliot early on and we can say that we should have realized it was him.   In Ultimates 3 we find out at the end that Doctor Doom pulled the strings but a year later we still don't know why.

In addition, change through character death is a cliche at this point. It's superficial change unless the writer can explain why the reader should care or why the reader shouldn't expect the character to be resurrected 10 issues down the line.   It's like being told celebrity ______ broke up / cheated.   Why should I care?

Millar's specialty lies in macro stories, stories about large events and how they affect the people around them (Civil War, Old Man Logan, Ultimates).   Loeb's specialty lies in micro stories where you have to pay attention to the details of what's going on. Loeb's perfect for Batman because he brings out Bruce's detective aspects, which are rarely employed, but he is absolutely the wrong person for a title like Ultimates.

14 years ago

Golden Cod

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#23 Edited By Golden Cod

@brewski420:

Change for the sake of change does not equal greatness. Turning Spiderman suddenly into a murderer in magic armor doesn't in and of itself create a good story. There has to be a reason that can be understood or else it's just sensationalism.

Plus he didn't change anything in the Batman: Hush story but it's still a fantastic story.

14 years ago

Comiclove5

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#24 Edited By Comiclove5

I'm loving Ultimate Comics X.

14 years ago

Golden Cod

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#25 Edited By Golden Cod

@mrrpm01:

I expect a writer to make it interesting.   If an editor decrees that character _________ must die, I expect the writer to make it a story worth reading.   If an editor decrees that Batgirl must become Robin's enemy, I expect the writer to create a plausible and interesting explanation for why it happens.   If an editor decrees anything I expect the writer to try his/her best in creating a story that meets those requirements.   Loeb didn't even try in Ultimatum.

In an interview with CBR Jeph Loeb basically said that he intended for Ultimatum to be a giant reset button that cleared the continuity clutter that the Ultimate titles were starting to accumulate and that required that some characters die to make way for new ones.   While character death isn't necessarily a bad thing, the way Loeb went about it was an absolute disaster.   He was like a barber who had never cut hair before.

Magneto kills Xavier by breaking his neck with his hands.   Xavier doesn't fight back and there's to duel of powers.   Completely anticlimatic.   Blob eats Wasp and Hank Pym in response eats Blob.   Climatic but completely random and out of character for Blob.   Pyro switches from being a friend of the X-Men to being a generic Magneto henchman.   Captain America appears in Hel (the Norse version) while Thor is fighting the dead and Capt has no idea why he's there.   It's suggested that Capt was dead but Capt doesn't seem to remember even being in danger.   The Thing crushes Doctor Doom's head without attempting to see if he had killed a Doombot.   The reader is simply told it's real deal.   Daredevil is found dead with no wounds and no explanation of what transpired.

If you're going to kill a character, kill him/her with style, or at the very least, do it in a way that brings closure to the character so that the reader can move on.   Even if a character were to be assassinated out of nowhere, it's possible to do their death justice and that's what differentiates a good writer from a bad one.

14 years ago

mrrpm01

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#26 Edited By mrrpm01

@Golden Cod: OK I truly understand with what you are saying and some points have merits but, I would think that in every major event there are cases where we are left to fill in the blanks or just sit back and enjoy the ride that the story takes us on case in point, some may say that "who will wield the shield" was a complete waste of time and did nothing but sell more books for marvel while others will say it gave a glimpse into the psyche of Bucky,Cap and all those involved as well as what drives them. If you constantly go through books looking for some hidden truth or an underlying meaning might I recommend the writings of Plato or even Sun Tzu (The Art of War). Not every story is going to hit on all cylinders or every writer will satisfy or every hero/villain wont respond the way you want them to but, there is a bigger responsibility to be served and that is to deliver to the masses that want an escape for a few pages and not dissertation for 5 pages on what drives this story or what drives the character. They have a specific amount of time and panels to convey a story and sometimes they won't tell the story YOU want but in my opinion that's the fun part of the ride. We read, we learn and we respond but, there is a reason they are the pros and we aren't. I can't count how many times I have been upset over how an arc ended but, a few months down the line it comes full circle or maybe they just wanted to get a quick kill and move on to bigger and better things.

14 years ago

doordoor123

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#27 Edited By doordoor123

WOW.
his writing is off sometimes but he is a brilliant writer. Story wise.
Ive been loving the ultimate comics line so far.
Screw anyone who doesnt understand a good story! Why are you reading comics anyhow?
Especially a re-imagination of the 616? TURDS!

14 years ago

Branagin77

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#28 Edited By Branagin77

Does anyone know what the heck ever happen to CAPTAIN AMERICA WHITE w/ Tim Sale????
Tim's probably out there not able to do any comics cause of some stupid contract.
This has really frustrated me..

14 years ago