Forgive me, I 've been on other comic sites answering questions of late.
1.Pre-Retcon Beyonder: Inconsequential, this incorrect on many levels, Pre-Retcon Beyonder erases the PF from existence. (This you cannot refute ) First, is there a reason why you believe Phoenix Force is multiversal in power? Any particular feat you had in mind, coz i can't honestly remember anything really resembling it being multiversal, and there are 3 bios that I can quote that explains it being universal. (also feats that even prove it to be as so)
Post-Retcon Beyonder granted Rachel Summers the full power of the previous Phoenix. (Jean)
Does anyone know what sustains the Phoenix Force?
Answer: The psyche of living beings. (without life, Phoenix is nothing)
Eternity nore Beyonder (pre or post) need life to exist.
Officially, post-retcon Beyonder is also given credit for erasing 616 Death. smile
In Mistress Death's 2006 Handbook bio.
Post-retcon Beyonder is even credited with threatening Eternity's existence.
This is because, at some point, Post-Retcon Beyonder was actually empowered again,
not to his original levels, but above his Cube being leveled it seems,
still below unrestricted Owen though.
Again, the Phoenix Force has been stated to be multi-versal.
Where?
And Phoenix has never created even a single universe,
nor has Phoenix ever destroyed a single universe outside of a 'What If' comic (Hell Trigon has half the multiverse under his control lmao)
Beyonder: "I begin...but have no ending
Phoenix comes in for the Attack
Rachel Summers uses ALL the power she can muster as Phoenix.
Beyonder didn't even flinch.
Beyonder withstands another Full frontal assault.
Beyonder: "does that outburst make you feel better"...lol
Then Beyonder decides to become Death for a while and takes Phoenix on a trip through Time and Space to teach her a lesson.
I am not going to even bother with the rest, because I've spent to much time on other sites repeating myself with the force.
I've told you before ...
Inconsequential, this scan of hers is a plague on comic vine and killer movie threads.
Actually quite the contrary, that feat is generally overplayed. I will try and give you some facts, let us see if I can change your mind about it. Feel free to agree or disagree."She needed to be in the WHR to manifest Timeline 15104 in her hands, so now Phoenix is always gonna run to the WHR in a battle to chop a Timeline? In addition to this, The WHR is a Multiversal Nexus though. So your theory is her doing so here means "she supposedly has the power to control and manipulate entire universes and time and space." , quite wrong when I find Based on what?
Holding a Timeline and doing nothing to it?
Holding universe in her hands, few small facts:
Yes it is , but the point was the baby universe was so small (well not like a house or a city) but small enough for Watcher (being that has been killed by Celestial, who in turns are weaker than Galactus, sorry have to use ABC logic here which I normally try to avoid it). Also, her feats are hardly universal.
1. She never actually held 616 universe but rather a baby universe on her hand, reality 15104.
2. Reality 15104 was a baby universe, only 150 years old as opposed to 616 which have been said to be billion of years old.
3. What Phoenix actually did in the scan was prevent the reality from collapsing, a good feat indeed, then time traveled in the past and made Cyclops do something that prevented the creating of that universe altogether, i..e Made Cyclops re-open Xavier Institute.
Rather than taking my words for it, here's the bio that explains the same thing, hopes this helps.
BIO: https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2762307-pf_20.jpg
BIO: Here is an extract from Marvel Official Handbook: Here comes Tomorrow bio: https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2762308-pf_22.jpg
So in short what happened (this is ALL of white Phoenix feat). She removed the sublime's atom from the universe who were insignificant bacterias went rogue, which wasn't even easy and took her 6 pages of prep. Then she had to change the universe so she made Cyclops change his mind. Cool, Raven is the master of the nexus and connected to every being that has ever lived and warped reality on a multiversal scale.
How does this feat, in any shape or form, show she is capable of fighting anything above universal,?
Second feat for Phoenix: , that the power of the crystal is indeed multiversal, the story arced said otherwise. After all, to the best of my knowledge that was the only issue where Mkran crystal was destroyed, assuming we are talking about the same instance X-men Volume 1, 108. In the issues the Mkraan crystal exploded, it destroyed a universe The World and was later resurrected. Furthermore, Phoenix didn't do it on her own accord, in fact, she herself on the panel said he has insufficient powers. She then asks Storm and Croisair for help and manipulating their lifeforce the crystal is contained.
In addition, Watcher and Handbook of Marvel Universe 2004, described it as capable of destroying a universe, while Gladiator though it was capable of destroying all reality, which I am thinking is a universe according to Gladiator.
Phoenix tries to Repair the Crystal again, and again NEEDING the X-Men's HELP:
Phoenix remembers the Man-Thing's advice,
and decides to send out a Telepathic Wave of Life-Affirming energy,
across this ALTERNATE Universe.
What does this mean, "Life-Affirming Energy?"
On every World, the Words are the same,
"when Death comes, do NOT die in Fear" ... blah blah blah.
That's it,
that's the incredible Feat
someone claimed was how Phoenix "Saved the Previous Universe"
mean giving Living Beings in the Universe a "pep" talk before they DIE.
Not to mention that This "Previous Universe/Multiverse" is a Divergence of 616,
but is somehow existing Before 616 was born. LOL!
Meh, they try to save the Universe anyway by Repairing the Crystal,
but that doesn't work,
and the Crystal shatters and destroys and recreates this ALTERNATE/DIVERGENT Reality.
But here is the Mkraan Crystal unleashed,
and ONLY a SINGLE Alternate Universe is remade.
(The whole Mkraan Crystal event issue,
once thought to be the greatest feat in Marvel, LOL...but in fact...it was just a Universe that Phoenix saved.
The MKraan Crystal As the Nexus of all Realities, the Crystal can allow travel between universes, but opening the Crystal could cause the mass of the neutron galaxy inside to suck in the entire universe and cause a chain-reaction across the multiverse, destroying all universes in existence.
How anyone came to the conclusion that the Crystal is a Multiversal reset switch or whatever is beyond me.)
Third feat:Projecting the Excalibur Tower across the multiverse VIA the Interfaces across the Multiverse that were Aligned.
This is before the Phoenix even came into the picture:
Iwhen a series of interfaces across the Multiverse were aligned, the localized energy fields merged..to Create an Energy Matrix.'
The Energy fields merge on their own.and the Interfaces across the Mulitverse align BY THEMSELVES...
AT the MOMENT of ALIGNMENT, THEN Feron called Phoenix to project the Tower", a less than monumental feat...considering it was the Energy Matrix(ON IT"S OWN)that allowes simultaneous existence in the Multiverse when the Interfaces Across are Aligned, Which Also happens on it's own
While Necrom and Feron had fought, MERLYN had jumped into the Energy Matrix...
He was swept across the Multiverse and was finally able to control the Energy Matrix and created Otherworld.
At Otherworld Merlyn, along with his daughter Roma, over-looked the Multiverse.
MERLYN repaired the Energy Matrix which now has a permanent flow.....NOT Phoenix.
Example
The Ultimate Nullifier has ended and remade the multiverse. In the blink of an eye.
And it still gets stomped effortlessly by an Incomplete IG or especially a complete IG.
The only power capable of standing up to ig was the Living Tribunal and others .
The 616 Infinity Gauntlet is the supreme power beneath the LT.
Only an anomaly of ridiculous power like Protege or Scathan beyonder , mm
can possibly challenge and/or defeat the IG in the hands of Thanos.
LT himself said the IG could destroy both Multiverse
This is a fact, since it is a fact, Phoenix does not have the top feat in Marvel and has not destroyed universes etc ..
The only instance that I know of Phoenix doing any better than destroying stars and planet comes from what ifs. We generally don't count What If, even if we do, what is there actually to put Phoenix as a multiversal powerhouse, hyperboles and her avatars being in the various multiverse? Isn't that like saying Green Lantern Corps is multiversal because there are more than 1 GL in every universe???
P.sPhoenix has, never on panel destroyed a universe, unless you use an instance from What Ifs, which by the virtue of being non-canon to her story arc cannot be done so. Don't even quote the watcher here or I will debunk that all at once.. Because a drunk Watcher said she is only second to the creator when everything else in her story arc contradicts that. Heck, she has yet to perform a feat that is above universal, let alone be even remotely close to a being whose stats at the moment is megaversal in power level. I mean the flamebird, the purest manifestation of Phoenix power has problem-fighting Thor who managed to clip its wing and Phoenix momentary ran away, Xorn killed Jean and made the Phoenix force explode, Shair made Phoenix its b*&^h, Iron Man broke it into 5 pieces with a giant gun, a collection of 6 heroes from X-men and Ultraforce got the better of Phoenix and we are comparing it with the Living Tribunal or anything in regards to a multiversal scale lol ? or someone like the Beyonder seriously ?
Forgive me , as I am a bit irritated by the Phoenix force I just had the same conversation with someone ....
P,s you're quite wrong about the gauntlet , only the current IG is universal .Only "current" IG is a universal threat, before Hickman Infinity Gauntlet has feat of power at actually affecting not 1 but 2 multiverses (marvel multiverse, and ultraverse) simultaneously, breaking down the barrier between all realities and affecting everything that was in between including a realm that exists in neither of the multiverse (crimson cosmos).
Why do I believe the IG is Multiversal, and what feats put IG weilders?
Ig wielders proved it, even Magnus and his incomplete Ig proved it.
- Warlock and Infinity Watch 04: It was revealed that a uni-directional blast from IG went beyond Marvel 616, and wrecked Beyonder's realm, which is a reality that exists outside marvel multiverse, and 616 is in the center of marvel multiverse.
It took Warlock from withIN Soul World while touching the Incomplete-IG plus, 616 Eternity/Infinity merge (all power of Time/Space in the Prime Multiverse) to defeat Magus.
Magus, with an Incomplete IG, took an entire separate 616 duplicate Universe and merged it with 616 in an instant. smile
(reference-Infinity War)
When 4 Gems (Mind-Soul-Space-Power) were creating RealitieS back to back, and stacking them on top of one another, destabilizing creation,
nearly collapsing "All Realities"
(reference-Ultraforce/Avengers)
Thanos defeated 616 Eternity,
and we've learned that 616 Eternity is not only the foundation of the Omniverse,
but where his Totality resides, and it makes perfect sense.
(for all UniverseS in the Prime Multiverse are in some form or another
directly spawned from 616, it is the central Reality,
it became the beginning of Marvel in the current continuity timeline)
(reference-Infinity Gauntlet arc-1602 arc-Defenders v3 arc
Jim Starlin
(the writer/creator of the Infinity Gauntlet)
gets interviewed by Marvel Age.
Marvel Age is a Marvel title specifically designed (amongst other things)
to get the intricate details
to stories which would otherwise be compressed by time & space.
TOAA>LT and any Ig wielder is below the Living Tribunal
Thanos became "God" beneath the LT according to Marvel comics:
WWWWwwVerified, On Panel, in Bios, at Marvel.wwcom, and in an interview with Jim Starlin himself. On top of the feats providing these statements, and done by multwwwjjwjjjiple IG weilders.
- Phoenix Force has done nothing to put it above someone like Eternity let alone a gauntlet that defeated a whole bunch of abstracts with a mere whim.
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