Lol Broly and Jiren aren't stronger than Beerus

I stopped paying attention to Dragon Ball after the ToP due to how heavy the debating used to be but I just had to come back to drop this comment because it's ridiculously annoying now.

First of all let me explain something so that it all becomes clear.

Akira when BoG was released stated that he had no intentions for Beerus to be surpassed. There is an interview further explaining this but people seem to ignore that section and misinterpret what he meant. He didn't mean that they couldn't surpass him because of power; it's a status thing. Beerus is the god of destruction. He is an authority figure in the universe and that is his role. This is why Goku will never surpass him until far in the future. It's a simple logical situation. IF Beerus exists, it means he is relevant. If at all he was surpassed, he would no longer be in the series nor be a god of destruction because it factually makes no sense.

Think about it, if Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, Broly, Android 17 could kill Beerus then he may as well quit his job.

Now onto the arguments.

Argument 1: "Goku stated that Jiren/Broly was the strongest enemy they ever fought." Goku upon meeting Beerus didn't even bother with fusion because he knew there would be no chance. I'm pretty damn sure when Goku talks about previous enemies, he isn't referring to Beerus otherwise he would SAY SO.

Argument 2: "Ultra instinct made the gods stand up." This has already been explained in canon. They gods weren't shocked at Goku's power but how quickly he attained it because in and out of canon Goku gaining Ultra Instinct is utter nonsense.

Argument 3: "Jiren is stronger than Belmod. Belmod is stronger than Beerus" First of all, there was no quantifiable levels about how strong Jiren is in comparison to Belmod. They could mean that Jiren at his absolute max is slightly stronger than Belmod's base etc etc. This is too wide for anyone to make general statements. Beyond that, we have no idea how strong Beerus is in relation to Belmod. Just because you are in a category does not make you equal.

Both Gogeta and Golden Freiza are both in the "Godly Level" category yet Freiza doesn't even come close to Gogeta's power.

Beerus lost an ARM WRESTLE. That means absolutely nothing. I go to the gym 3 times a week and I'm a big guy. I could crush Bruce Lee in an arm wrestle. Does that mean I'd beat him in a fight? Hell no.

Conclusion:

It has been stated NOWHERE in canon that Beerus or even any of the other gods except from Belmod are weak. If so SOMEONE would have said this. Whis and the angels comment on every single thing. Do you think if Goku and the others were stronger than him that Whis wouldn't say so? He'd at least mention it to piss Beerus off.

Beyond that, the writers have never SHOWN Beerus to be fighting those specific individuals. There is a REASON for this. They PURPOSELY put Beerus away from Broly so that they wouldn't fight.

We are all allowed to have our head canons but everything I listed above is factual from the show. The moment Beerus has been listed in the show to be outclassed, that is when you can accept it. Until then, he is still top dog.

Total nonsense.

You tried so hard to explain it your own way. I read every single word, and wasn’t convinced at all.

Just to be clear. I also believe that Beerus is still Above Jiren, Broly, and even MUI Goku. But your reasoning is completely Off.

@zoldycklogic: This is the part where you post your reasoning?

How can he be the top dog if he’s a cat?

@hudyman: The main argument for the likes of Broly surpassing Beerus is that Goku said that Broly probably has. For Jiren, it's usually the magazine that had Beerus say Initial MUI Goku might have surpassed him, and Jiren overpowered that version of MUI Goku.

Beerus is the god of destruction. He is an authority figure in the universe and that is his role.

Same with Destroyers like Belmod in Universe 11, but Jiren is a mortal who is superior to him.

We are all allowed to have our head canons but everything I listed above is factual from the show.

Saying Beerus remains ahead of Broly and Jiren is not factual, and is headcanon, as Beerus lacks feats or statements to say he is above them.

Tfw we use statements from 2014 before a series was being considered to contradict in character statements and feats.

@hudyman: I believe that it's impossible to know for sure who is the strongest among them for now. ( Beerus, Goku, Jiren, and Broly)

Since Beerus never fought at full power on screen. And he never faced Jiren and Broly.

Broly never faced MUI or Jiren.

MUI Goku never faced Beerus.

We can only say that MUI Goku is above Jiren. So if Jiren is stronger than Beerus and Broly, then MUI is the strongest by default. But we only have statements to go by. Some nonreliable statements.

The reason I place Beerus above everyone, for now, is mainly due to the presence of high-end on panel feats that the others still lack.

He traveled intergalactically in less than a minute and 20 seconds. And has shown energy manipulation like no other character in DB. And even in the movie, he never showed interest in Broly.

I am sorry but you can't say things like " The GoDs stood because they were impressed by the speed of Goku's progress" Since you don't know that, nobody knows that. And you can't compare yourself and Bruce Lee to those guys. In dragon ball, the more Ki you have, the stronger you get, and your speed increases. Again, this doesn't mean Belmod is stronger than Beerus. I am not attacking you or your conclusion, Just the way you got to it.

And lastly, Toriyama saying he doesn't plan on Beerus to be surpassed anytime soon, this was four years ago. And no one mentioned that if Beerus were to be surpassed, he would quit his Job. Belmod will quit when Toppo is still below his level. And he didn't quit when Jiren surpassed him.

@zoldycklogic: Fair enough I guess, you raise a good point.

@hudyman: Thanks. You are a good sport

@hudyman: couldnt agree more

I also dont want them to surpass beerus ever if at all if kind of diminishes it all

The Beerus wank is off the charts

lol

Whis himself said that Belmod is stronger than Beerus, and that the mortal (Jiren) is stronger than Belmod. MUI Goku and Jiren are above them and it's clear as day. Even the jump magazine stated that MUI is above the GoDs. Beerus has been surpassed.

@panda_emperorix:

Literally every post above yours has proven you wrong

Not really

Its Hakai energy and limted UI that gives Beerus the win over this 2 as well as experience IMO but he can still lose its very close

How is this still a thing lol? I thought it was pretty clear that Jiren is > GoD. There was literally nothing in the anime to imply Beerus was special and for whatever reason above all the other gods.

Jiren stomps easily.

1. Jiren stoped ssg goku with a finger whereas beerus had to use 60-70% of his power.

2. jiren literally went against mui goku who was near angel level which was confirmed by whis and angels are superior to beerus

@hudyman: asserting your opinion on to other people doesn't make you right. Anyways using facts and logic:

beerus used 70% of his power on ssg whereas jiren legit used 1 finger on ssg clearly implying jiren is stronger than beerus.

I can take this Mortals, Whis hold my sunglasses i have my work cut out for me.

@actualfacts: Let's ignore and pretend that Beerus didn't say that he was lying to give your argument some merit.

Golden Freiza's resurrection before the tournament tanked a Hakai energy (though struggled) from Sidra.

Goku in his base form, who is now lightyears stronger than the SSG v Beerus fight, couldn't handle the energy.

Beerus blew it away with a breath.

Hit after his fight against KaioKen blue Goku, a Goku who at that point was lightyears stronger than the SSG v Beerus fight. Hit BEATS Goku and then afterwards, Champa came down and was going to KILL Hit. If you watch the scene again, Hit didn't even try to do anything and just accepted his fate. The only reason Hit didn't die was because Zeno appeared. At that point, Hit was stronger than SSJB KaioKen Goku. Vados HERSELF says that Beerus is stronger than Champa.

So I dunno man.

The only reason why people say Jiren is stronger is due to statements. In the Manga it's shown that Beerus is the strongest since all the GoDs couldn't put him down. Beerus has better feats than them all, and experience. It's absurd when people say Jiren and Broly are stronger

The fact that Whis straight up said Jiren is stronger than a GoD kinda gives the impression he would be stronger than Beerus. Sure we have never seen him at 100% but i'm pretty sure Whis has. Going off what the writers have told us:

• Goku & Vegeta together could take Beerus (With perfect teamwork)
• Beerus is uncomfortable with the though of Goku using SSBKK against him
• Jiren is stronger than his a GoD (Specifically Belmond)
• MUI Goku was stronger than Jiren
• Beerus is a top tier GoD (possibly the strongest)
• According to Goku, Broly may be stronger than Beerus (Though he has never seen Beerus 100%)

Dragon Ball is famous for characters pulling out ridiculous powers/transformations/techniques. Going off what we have been given in the Manga, Anime, movies, video games and guides I don't think Jiren is stronger than Beerus. Though I do think MUI Goku surpassed him temporarily. I do also think Beerus will get yet another power-up (his first using a large percentage of his power against SSG then absolutely pounding on MSSB Vegeta) putting him back at the top, be this a transformation or mastering UI. My opinion of course.

@jooosh1996:

Whis said that Jiren is stronger than Belmod. That was it. I don't know how you manage to extrapolate some logic that means that Jiren is stronger than Beerus.

"Stronger than a GoD" Like what is that even meant to mean? Switch it around and try saying:

"Jiren is stronger than a Human."

"Jiren is stronger than a Saiyan."

Which human??? Which Saiyan???

Also, Whis never speaks in riddles or hints. He always states exactly what the situation is. If Jiren was stronger than Beerus, Whis WOULD say it. Why the f*** would he not??

- "Goku & Vegeta together could take Beerus (With perfect teamwork)" - What he meant is they grew stronger and worked completely perfect in unison that they could have a chance at taking Beerus. He didn't say they could outright beat him.

- "Beerus is uncomfortable with the though of Goku using SSBKK against him" - Lol. Beerus literally said afterwards that he was angry Goku didn't use it against him. Funny thing actually; In that same scene, SSBKK Goku LOSES to Hit. Champa was then about to kill that same Hit who overpowered Goku and Hit did nothing to stop it. He simply accepted his fate because he knew that Champa was stronger than him. Beerus is stronger than Champa so why on earth would he be afraid of Goku?

"Jiren is stronger than his a GoD (Specifically Belmond)": Belmod could be equal to Freiza in battle strength for all we know. The only thing that connects to Beerus is the arm wrestle. I go to the gym alot. I could most likely crush Bruce Lee in an arm wrestle. I doubt that means I could beat him in a fight.

"MUI Goku was stronger than Jiren": Actually, it was 50/50 at certain points. Beerus nor any of the gods were never "afraid" of Goku using U.I. They were just impressed that he learned it so quickly. And why wouldn;t they? The whole thing was BS.

"Beerus is a top tier GoD (possibly the strongest)": "We don't know this. I honestly hate how this fanbase loves to speculate and use headcanon. We haven't seen ALL the gods fight. We haven't seen Beerus go 100%. So why on earth are we here making bland statements?

"According to Goku, Broly may be stronger than Beerus": I watched the movie last night, this was LITERALLY an afterthought. Goku has NO idea what Beerus's full strength is like. Why the flock would his words mean anything?? Addition, Beerus knew what was happening due to his final scene; I assume it was implied he just didn't want to get involved.

@hudyman: Whis said there is a mortal a GoD can’t defeat. Whis also confirmed Jiren as the mortal and that he had surpassed Belmond.

Using that same logic Champa must be scared to face Hit and Goku as when he called them pawns they frightened him with just a stare. Goku probably would have challenged Champa it never got to that point. Zeno appeared and it was all forgotten about.

When we’re they 50/50? Goku dominated Jiren once he went MUI and would have eliminated him if he didn’t fatigue.

In the manga Beerus clearly is one of the strongest GoD. It’s not headcannon all the Gods target him and he makes them look like chumps until he makes a mistake with Whis claiming not even Beerus has mastered UI.

My point is Toriyama had that line put in the movie. Forget what Goku thinks hes a fictional character and more often then not he’s wrong. The creator of Dragon Ball hinted with that line Broly MAY be stronger than Beerus.

@grandtoaa:

In the Manga it's shown that Beerus is the strongest since all the GoDs couldn't put him down.

They couldn't put him down due to his speed, but he had no showings of pure power that would indicate he would have beat Quitela had the Grand Priest not interrupted their fight.

Beerus has a chance of being stronger than Broly and Jiren, but as of now he should be treated as weaker until we get some definite proof.

@jooosh1996:

I genuinely don't understand a single world of your logic.

The manga is non canon.

As I said before, dragon ball in it's entirety of television and writing has NEVER hidden someone's power ranking. You always knew how strong an individual to every extent.

As of right now in Super, we know how strong every single person is EXCEPT Beerus and the other gods excluding Belmod. I have no issues with Beerus being weaker, it's just that the show actually has to SAY SO. Don't come here with all that head canon nonsense.

I've literally seen people give Beerus a ranking. How in god's name can you give a ranking for someone who hasn't fought?

All we know of Beerus right now is that everyone in universe 7 fears him and Whis has made no mention of Beerus being weaker. I will say this once more; Whis and Vados always say exactly what they want to say, especially if it will anger Beerus or Champa. You think for one second if Beerus was weaker than Goku and Jiren, Whis wouldn't say so? There is no logical nor sane reason why he wouldn't. It would be out of character for him.

At no point in the entire run of Dragon Ball Super has Whis said or even HINTED at saying;

"This person is stronger than Lord Beerus."

Because no one is.

@alextheboss: I don't mean to insult you but that is by far the most illogical argument I have ever seen.

A is confirmed stronger than B.

A has never gone full power nor been serious in a fight.

A is the top dog.

B fights C.

Somehow according to you; A is weaker??

This is where the argument always makes no sense. I would understand it if Beerus fought Goku at 100% power. Yes of course, in that case everything you are saying would make sense and Beerus is weaker. But he wasn't.

@hudyman: Goku saw Beerus' full power in the manga when he fought the other gods of destruction so try again.

@hudyman: You lost me at the manga isn’t canon.

@karkus: GOing back that, there is no way to say which GoD was the strongest then. Certainly not Belmond like many claim

@jooosh1996: @alextheboss:

The manga isn't written nor drawn by Toriyama. It is a DIFFERENT type of canon.

What happens in the anime doesn't apply to the manga. What happens in the manga doesn't apply to the anime.

Stop being silly.

We wont find out until we see a fp Beerus. He was fully capable of one shooting SSB Vegeta in the past

@hudyman: The anime isn’t directed or animated by him either... Toriyama gives notes and a plot outline that goes into the Manga and Anime. Both are slightly different intentional to make you want to see both. The only thing truly canon are Toriyamas notes. Also the anime has filler in which is always non canon the manga doesn’t.

@hudyman: neither the anime or manga is more canon than the other, they are just both different versions of the same story. Toyotaro talks directly with Toriyama and designed half of the GoD. The manga can be used to help figure out how stron Beerus is.

In the same canon that he one-shotted SSB Vegeta, he also went Full Power.

Hey man. I agree with the title that no mortal is confirmed to be stronger than Beerus. That is only because we haven't seen his full power (except for the Zen exhibition match in manga which was against other GoDs). This works both ways however. Beerus isn't confirmed to be stronger than MUI Goku, Jiren or Broly. All the things you mentioned are mild implications at best. I could mention a few that implies otherwise.

In an All out Fight : Beerus>=Jiren>=Broly. Pure power wise: Broly>=Jiren>=Beerus.

1. Broly is at least somewhat more powerful than Beerus at full power.
2. Beerus can beat every other God of Destruction in a fight, including Belmod.
3. Jiren is stronger than Belmod.
4. Jiren wasn't able to overwhelm Ultra-Instinct Omen.
5. Beerus was more than willing to fight against Ultra-Instinct Omen.
6. Both Jiren and Beerus cannot match Mastered Ultra-Instinct.
7. Jiren and Beerus are at least comparable, with Beerus likely being stronger.

Broly is definitely more powerful than Beerus, but Jiren is likely still somewhat weaker.

This makes me crazy.

How do you KNOW THIS??

Nobody has seen Beerus at full power yet you're here saying that Broly is stronger than Beerus's full power??

???

It was stated and not contradicted, therefore making it a fact.

@avengersasssemb: What in gods name are you talking about haha?

Goku literally said at the end of the movie:

"I think he might even be stronger than beerus".

Key word "I Think".

Coming from a guy who didn't fight a full power beerus.

Haha what on earth are you on about?

A noncontradicted statement in a story remains true until contradicted.

@hudyman:

Goku literally said at the end of the movie:

"I think he might even be stronger than beerus".

Minor nitpick, but he said probably, not might.

@pr0d1gy: This sounds like an argument from ignorance fallacy.

You're definitely sniffing mushrooms mate.

It wasn't a statement; it was a guess. Hell I wouldn't even call it that. It was more like Goku talking utter nonsense.

I'll break it down for you since you seem to be so hard headed on your perspective.

1. Goku nearly died against Beerus.

2. Goku did not fight Beerus at his full power.

3. Whis even states that Beerus was playing around.

4. At no point in the entire run of Dragon Ball have we seen Beerus even slightly worried.

5. Beerus was never "afraid" of Jiren, he was afraid of what Jiren could do to his mortals which results in Beerus being erased.

6. The final and most important point; At no point in the entire run of dragon ball super has Whis made a statement that anyone is stronger than Beerus. There is no reason for Whis to NOT say so. Upon his meeting with Champa, Vados and Whis immediately brought up power levels making us know that Champa is weaker than Beerus and that Vados is stronger than Whis. Throughout the entire show Whis serves as the individual who explains everything to the audience. At NO point, has Whis even HINTED at any individual being stronger than Beerus. The statement with Belmod was just to show how difficult the tournament was going to be. It literally makes no sense. Whis WAS at the scene with Broly. Whis INTERACTED with Broly. If Broly was stronger than Beerus, WHY would he not say so or at least make a sarcastic remark?

Goku's statement was nothing but nonsense talk. I'm surprised people are even paying it any attention.

It would be like a child fighting an adult who is holding back. The child loses then goes on to fight a teenager.

The child then says that the teenager would beat the adult in a fight.

"Jiren is one of, if not the absolute, most powerful mortal warriors in the multiverse. While Jiren started off very weak as a child and much of his adolescence, Jiren's arduous pursuit for power later led to an inconceivably improved his strength to the point of unquestionably being the strongest mortal warrior and pride of Universe 11, surpassing even his universe's God of Destruction, Vermoud. His might vastly surpasses Top, the second strongest mortal of Universe 11 and a God of Destruction candidate whose training allows him to essentially wield said power for additional might.^[2] Even more, he was the original choice to be the next Universe 11 Destroyer, but turned it down. Despite this, Jiren has already entered the domain of Gods of Destruction, if not surpassed it, as a God of Destruction cannot defeat him. Even more, in the manga, Whis noted that Jiren's potential growth is still immeasurable, showing a remarkable growth rate as the more he struggles, he quickly is able to adapt and grow. His raw speed is even shown to exceed his ally Dispo (at least outside of his Super Maximum Light Speed Mode). Even more, his gods, Vermoud and Cae, watched the tournament for its near entirety completely calm despite knowing the looming danger of them and their universe being erased if defeated, showing that much confidence in Jiren's might. Overall, his multiversal-class might is made all the more impressive by the fact that the vast majority of it was self-taught..."

"Jiren's power is said to exceed that of the 12 Gods of Destruction."

[10]

"Jiren's power has reached the domain of the Gods of Destruction."

- https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Jiren#Power

"Broly is one of the most powerful mortal warriors in the multiverse, standing well-among the top warriors in Universe 7. A true prodigy in combat and born with the genetics of the Legendary Super Saiyan..."

"Broly's raw physical power, durability, and ki are almost unlimited. Additionally, he can generate ki blasts and beams without the need to use stances, firing them from his body or his mouth, making him more unpredictable. Also, as he steadily continues to grow in power"

"Broly is the strongest enemy Goku and co. have been up against up until this point. His destructive power also seems to be greater than a God of Destruction's".^[10]

"Broly gets stronger the more he fights".^[11]

- https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Broly_(DBS)#Power

The entire o.p. , I feel was a waste of time and was an un-needed tirade. All it was required of you was to do the research beforehand to accurately gauge the powers of the three. From what was written on the characters' page, we know that they are beerus's class or around his level, if not, higher. Sorry bud, but your way off here.

Edit:

Before you come behind me telling me that wikis aren't an accurate source of info and anyone can edit and what not, understand this...the page simply provides a general overview of a particular character or whatever. Most of the info put on there are from official sources which are listed under the reference section (along with events transpired in the anime episode or manga panel, something called a summary or synopsis, in case you did know), which I link provided a link right below.

https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Broly_(DBS)#References

https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Jiren#References

@ps4gamerdude: Lol absolutely nothing you said was of any value.

But then again you already know that,

Yes it was.

Whis heavily implied that the likes of jiren were stronger than beerus. Even if you cant agree with that then you must agree that there is no definitive proof putting beerus above jiren or mui goku