According to George Lucas, Yoda is the second most powerful force user. I would think Yoda would win this as it all comes down to who can use the force greater.
According to George Lucas, Yoda is the second most powerful force user. I would think Yoda would win this as it all comes down to who can use the force greater.
So you don't think Darths weapon would have any effect on Yoda whatso ever?
With Drain, this is just a who-hits-first fight, as is every battle thread with Nihilus. If Nihilus Drains Yoda, he wins. If not, Yoda wins. Nihilus has no power or skill feats to compete with Yoda. Given that Yoda has many discernible speed feats while Nihilus has none, given Nihilus' general oblivious mindset, and given that Yoda knows about Nihilus' abilities as per the OP, Yoda would most likely just kill Nihilus instantly to defeat him before being Drained. In other words, Yoda WVSB, TK, Lightsaber Throw, etc.
@Silver2467: I don't think it's that simple. Afterall, Nihilus lacks a physical body to kill, so just stabbing him with a lightsber presumably wouldn't be enough to kill him.
@Nephthys17: Yes, it is that simple. Nihilus was killed by Meetra and Visas in a standard duel. He was not weakened, and he was no match for both, as stated in The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia. More than that, Warb Null had no body either. Similar to Nihilus, he was a spirit residing in an armor, yet Null was killed by Ulic slashing his helmet off. Nihilus is no different. He is dependent on his armor to subsist himself, as his armor is his pseudo-skin. If his armor is damaged, he dies.
Nothing complicated about killing Nihilus. Slash him up, breach his armor, tear him apart, whatever you prefer. Yoda is more than capable of any of these.
@Silver2467: Could I see that source since saying that he is not weakened? Because that completely contradicts the actual game.
As for what happened during the duel, we simply can't say that he was defeated by conventional means since the fight happens during gameplay. Furthermore can we truely say that Null's case as the same? In Nulls case his armor was specially prepared and embued with Sith magic in order to trap his spirit in it whereas Nihilus freely bound himself and without specially prepared armor.
Even if it is a simple as slashing him, do you truly believe that Yoda can damage his armor enough to kill him before Nihilus can so much as raise his hand? Yoda is fast, but not that fast. Considering Nihilus' enormous Force Power it stands to reason that he is [b]somewhat[/b] competent at Force-enhanced speed and reflexes. All he has to do is raise his hand and the fight is over. Alternatively he could protect himself with the Force or lash out with his unmatched telekinetic powers. The time it would take for Yoda to break through his defences or protect himself would be ample time to perform his drain.
@Silver2467: Could I see that source since saying that he is not weakened? Because that completely contradicts the actual game.
He siphoned the energy of other worlds before arriving at Telos. He was hardly starved when arriving there.
In the meantime, Darth Nihilus led his Sith forces from his flagship, the Ravager, drawing more and more power from worlds that he blasted into ruin.
--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
As for what happened during the duel, we simply can't say that he was defeated by conventional means since the fight happens during gameplay.
Sure we can. Sources have stated that he was simply no match for Visas and Meetra.
Although Darth Nihilus managed to stun the Exile, he was unprepared for the devotion of his former pupil Marr to the young woman. Marr tried to exchange her life for that of the Exile, giving the former Jedi time to recover. Together, they confronted Darth Nihilus. The Sith Lord was no match for their combined might, and he fell in battle.
--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Furthermore can we truely say that Null's case as the same? In Nulls case his armor was specially prepared and embued with Sith magic in order to trap his spirit in it whereas Nihilus freely bound himself and without specially prepared armor.
And there is no difference between that. Nihilus is still just a spirit residing in an armor. How he came to be in that state is inconsequential.
You are the one submitting that Nihilus is immune to physical attack. The onus is then on you to present the evidence for that claim. However, I know for a fact that no such evidence exists because I have read every appearance and sourcebook entry that Nihilus has. He is not invulnerable to standard attacks.
Even if it is a simple as slashing him, do you truly believe that Yoda can damage his armor enough to kill him before Nihilus can so much as raise his hand? Yoda is fast, but not that fast. Considering Nihilus' enormous Force Power it stands to reason that he is [b]somewhat[/b] competent at Force-enhanced speed and reflexes. All he has to do is raise his hand and the fight is over.
Show me a single speed feat from Nihilus. Although, once again, I can guarantee such a feat is nonexistent. Yoda has moved his lightsaber so fast he covered his body in light, deflected blows from Palpatine (who can move his blade at sublight speeds), fought faster than Anakin/Dooku, easily evaded blows from multiple Jedi (Saesee Tiin, Plo Koon, and Depa Billaba to be exact), etc. Nihilus on the other hand has absolutely no physical showings of any kind whatsoever. More to the point, you have no basis for your assertion that Nihilus simply must have some comparable level of speed with Yoda. He was never established as a physical powerhouse, and his own disregarding mentality toward others weakens your theory.
Alternatively he could protect himself with the Force
Again, show me evidence of Nihilus doing this.
or lash out with his unmatched telekinetic powers.
His telekinetic powers are not "unmatched" by any stretch of the imagination. Nihilus has one single telekinetic feat: raising the Ravager from Malachor. This feat is both off-panel and apparently circumstantial. Malachor is a Force nexus, an ideal location for a being such as Nihilus who requires external Force energies to survive. That grants him added power beyond himself. The Ravager also seemed to have a bond with Nihilus through the Force. Furthermore, if Nihilus' telekinetic powers were so incredible, why did he fail to TK Visas? Or Meetra? Or even Canderous? You could argue that the other two Jedi were able to defend themselves against Nihilus' powers, but if they could, Yoda could with far greater ease. Canderous, however, has no excuse. He is a completely non-Force sensitive human, not in any way resistant to the Force, yet Nihilus never succeeded in killing him. You could argue that Nihilus was weakened (which lacks proof), but even if so, if his TK is sufficient to resurrect a capital ship from a world, it should be no difficulty to simply kill an indefensible enemy.
On the other hand, Yoda has destroyed droid landing vessels, caused avalanches, lifted Ventress' ship, effortlessly moved an X-Wing, directly TK'd other Force sensitives, etc. Yoda's Telekinesis surpasses Nihilus' based no demonstrated feats.
The time it would take for Yoda to break through his defences or protect himself would be ample time to perform his drain.
Or, more plausibly, the time it would take for Nihilus care about the prospect of an opponent would be ample time for Yoda to kill him.
He siphoned the energy of other worlds before arriving at Telos. He was hardly starved when arriving there.
In the meantime, Darth Nihilus led his Sith forces from his flagship, the Ravager, drawing more and more power from worlds that he blasted into ruin.
--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Simply because Nihilus consumed other worlds doesn't mean that he was not hungry or near starved, as revealed in the conversation with Tobin where you inform him that theres no Jedi academy on Telos.
Tobin: "The Master suffers... If he can not feed, then the hunger begins to consume him The planet Telos... He may feed on something upon its surface to sustain himself a while longer."
Visas: "If there are no Jedi here, then my Lord cannot feed his hunger. He will destroy the planet, the station... he will cleanse it of life. ...and if there are no Jedi below, he will have no other choice."
If he was in such desperate need that he was suffering and would have no choice but to consume the planet then he was hardly sitting on a full stomach. Besides which Nihilus is further weakened when he attempted to drain the Exile and then further weakened by Visas Marr during the duel. Frankly considering how lackluster Meetra Surik is in the revan novel, I suspect that Nihilus must have greatly weakened to have fallen to her.
Sure we can. Sources have stated that he was simply no match for Visas and Meetra.
Although Darth Nihilus managed to stun the Exile, he was unprepared for the devotion of his former pupil Marr to the young woman. Marr tried to exchange her life for that of the Exile, giving the former Jedi time to recover. Together, they confronted Darth Nihilus. The Sith Lord was no match for their combined might, and he fell in battle.
--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
That quote doesn't mention anything about how they defeated him. Being no match for someones 'Might' is far too ambiguous to declare that they must have defeated him using conventional means.
And there is no difference between that. Nihilus is still just a spirit residing in an armor. How he came to be in that state is inconsequential.
You are the one submitting that Nihilus is immune to physical attack. The onus is then on you to present the evidence for that claim. However, I know for a fact that no such evidence exists because I have read every appearance and sourcebook entry that Nihilus has. He is not invulnerable to standard attacks.
I don't recall saying that Nihilus is immune to physical damage. I merely said that as a mere spirit a single stab might not be enough to kill him. Yoda will need to thoroughly devestate Nihilus in order to do that imo, which he won't be able to do before Nihilus can consume him.
Show me a single speed feat from Nihilus. Although, once again, I can guarantee such a feat is nonexistent. Yoda has moved his lightsaber so fast he covered his body in light, deflected blows from Palpatine (who can move his blade at sublight speeds), fought faster than Anakin/Dooku, easily evaded blows from multiple Jedi (Saesee Tiin, Plo Koon, and Depa Billaba to be exact), etc. Nihilus on the other hand has absolutely no physical showings of any kind whatsoever. More to the point, you have no basis for your assertion that Nihilus simply must have some comparable level of speed with Yoda. He was never established as a physical powerhouse, and his own disregarding mentality toward others weakens your theory.
Haha, forgive me but I thought that Force Speed was a basic Force Power that even a padawan knew how to do. Even untrained Force Sensitives experience enhanced reflexes and speed. Considering that Nihilus is one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the Star Wars Mythos, it would be insane to suggest that he's unable to use the Force to enhance his speed and reflexes. I never claimed that he has comparable speed to Yoda. I don't need to. Basic Force Speed should allow him to raise his hand before being cut down.
I'm curious where you got sub-light speeds for Palpatine though. Considering that Grievous can merely move his limbs 'faster than the human eye can see' and the RotS claims that 'No human being could move remotely as fast as Grievous', that would be quite a contradiction. Moving at sublight speeds is so ludicrously above anything else in the mythos that I'm confused as to where you got that feat from. Even in Palpatines most powerful incarnation, Dark Empire, he was still percievable in his duel with Luke.
Again, show me evidence of Nihilus doing this.
Again, Force Barrier is one of the most basic Force Powers to exist. Frankly if Nihilus can lift up a starship from a planet with the Force and hold it together as well (presumably even at high speeds) then suggesting that he can't form a simply barrier in front of him is just illogical and disingenuous.
His telekinetic powers are not "unmatched" by any stretch of the imagination. Nihilus has one single telekinetic feat: raising the Ravager from Malachor. This feat is both off-panel and apparently circumstantial. Malachor is a Force nexus, an ideal location for a being such as Nihilus who requires external Force energies to survive. That grants him added power beyond himself. The Ravager also seemed to have a bond with Nihilus through the Force. Furthermore, if Nihilus' telekinetic powers were so incredible, why did he fail to TK Visas? Or Meetra? Or even Canderous? You could argue that the other two Jedi were able to defend themselves against Nihilus' powers, but if they could, Yoda could with far greater ease. Canderous, however, has no excuse. He is a completely non-Force sensitive human, not in any way resistant to the Force, yet Nihilus never succeeded in killing him. You could argue that Nihilus was weakened (which lacks proof), but even if so, if his TK is sufficient to resurrect a capital ship from a world, it should be no difficulty to simply kill an indefensible enemy.
On the other hand, Yoda has destroyed droid landing vessels, caused avalanches, lifted Ventress' ship, effortlessly moved an X-Wing, directly TK'd other Force sensitives, etc. Yoda's Telekinesis surpasses Nihilus' based no demonstrated feats.
Woah, obviously that was a touchy word choice. However, its still a greater feat than any Yoda has done. You severely overestimate the power of a darkside nexus. Even a strong nexus such as Vjun only empowered Dooku by a negligable amount, not even bringing him equal with Yoda, despite the fact that the two are already quite close in power and ability. Even if Malachor V was the strongest nexus to ever exist, it wouldn't have heightened Nihilus that much. Even going on the insane assumption that it doubled his power, it would still be a greater feat than any Yoda has done. Even moreso considering the gravity well of Malachor, which would have made the task more difficult, potentially cancelling out any boost he recieved from Malachor.
Also theres the fact that Nihilus is actively holding the ship together with his power. Since you kindly informed me that he travelled to many worlds during Kotor 2 then we can safely assume that he did so by going into hyperspace. I'm not to sure about the physics involved in that, but surely holding a ship together while its moving faster than the speed of light is reasonably impressive.
As to your questions, he was incredibly weakened in that fight. In fact remember that he does demonstrate his TK by stunning the party as soon as they meet, and then again during the fight. however since in occured during gameplay we can only guess what went on in it.
Finally, even if Yoda is superior in trms of TK, it doesn't matter. All Nihilus has to do is delay him long enough so that he can use his drain. And then its GG unfortunately.
Or, more plausibly, the time it would take for Nihilus care about the prospect of an opponent would be ample time for Yoda to kill him.
This is a fight and they have knowledge about each other already. Nice try though.
Simply because Nihilus consumed other worlds doesn't mean that he was not hungry or near starved, as revealed in the conversation with Tobin where you inform him that theres no Jedi academy on Telos.
Tobin: "The Master suffers... If he can not feed, then the hunger begins to consume him The planet Telos... He may feed on something upon its surface to sustain himself a while longer."
Visas: "If there are no Jedi here, then my Lord cannot feed his hunger. He will destroy the planet, the station... he will cleanse it of life. ...and if there are no Jedi below, he will have no other choice."
If he was in such desperate need that he was suffering and would have no choice but to consume the planet then he was hardly sitting on a full stomach.
How do you translate this as "desperate need"? Nihilus does this constantly anyway, regardless of what state he is in. Moreover, how can you come to the conclusion that Nihilus is previously starved if he had already fed on several worlds? If he fed, there is no reason to presume that. Nihilus' only inclination is to travel and feed. He has no other directive. Just because he needs to feed again in no way suggests he is starving. It just suggests he needs to feed again as he always does.
Besides which Nihilus is further weakened when he attempted to drain the Exile and then further weakened by Visas Marr during the duel.
To an unspecified level.
Frankly considering how lackluster Meetra Surik is in the revan novel, I suspect that Nihilus must have greatly weakened to have fallen to her.
Or maybe Nihilus was simply never as impressive in a fight as you fanwank him to be. Considering his severe wanting for anything approaching a respectable combat showing, that seems more probable. For that matter, Nihilus never even confronted Traya on his own. He and Sion had to join their powers in order to Drain hers.
But Traya underestimates her disciples' depravity. They turn on her and drain her Force powers.
--Taken from the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
That quote doesn't mention anything about how they defeated him. Being no match for someones 'Might' is far too ambiguous to declare that they must have defeated him using conventional means.
LOL. Really? Kindly inform me then of what unconventional methods of combat Meetra and Visas possess that would allow them to defeat Nihilus by a more obscure means, and please do so in a way that doesn't appeal to ignorance, as this assertion does from the outset.
I don't recall saying that Nihilus is immune to physical damage. I merely said that as a mere spirit a single stab might not be enough to kill him. Yoda will need to thoroughly devestate Nihilus in order to do that imo, which he won't be able to do before Nihilus can consume him.
Too bad Nihilus has absolutely no speed feats to warrant the notion that he can respond to Yoda before the latter tears him apart, whether by the Force or with a lightsaber.
Haha, forgive me but I thought that Force Speed was a basic Force Power that even a padawan knew how to do. Even untrained Force Sensitives experience enhanced reflexes and speed. Considering that Nihilus is one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the Star Wars Mythos, it would be insane to suggest that he's unable to use the Force to enhance his speed and reflexes.
In the future, you might try replying to points I actually posted instead of running off on irrelevant, speculative tangents like this.
I never claimed that he has comparable speed to Yoda. I don't need to. Basic Force Speed should allow him to raise his hand before being cut down.
What? Basic Force Speed is enough to counteract Yoda? Don't be ridiculous. Yoda is far beyond the speed level of most Force sensitives.
I also am not blind to the fact that you ignored all of the speed showings Yoda has, showings which support my point and discredit yours.
I'm curious where you got sub-light speeds for Palpatine though. Considering that Grievous can merely move his limbs 'faster than the human eye can see' and the RotS claims that 'No human being could move remotely as fast as Grievous', that would be quite a contradiction. Moving at sublight speeds is so ludicrously above anything else in the mythos that I'm confused as to where you got that feat from.
This is one of the most asinine paragraphs I have read in recent memory. Did you just imply that Grievous is the fastest character in the mythos and that he can only move invisibly fast? The RotS novelization never objectively stated that Grievous was the fastest character in Star Wars. Obi-Wan's musings did. That entire section was a perspective-based description of Obi-Wan's mindset and intentions, his choosing not to attempt to steal his lightsaber back from Grievous directly but rather address the problem more discreetly. More to the point, even if that was simply an objective narrative statement (which it wasn't), "no human being" is hardly translatable to all Force sensitives, especially since Obi-Wan is altogether ignorant of Palpatine's powers in the Force, let alone the powers of many others. That said, LOL @ you thinking Grievous' max speed tops out at imperceptible. Do I even have to elaborate on how pitifully common it is for various Force sensitives to move invisibly fast? If that was Grievous' limit, that would do nothing to render him faster than everyone else. Also, did you even read RotS, or is your memory really so selective as to ignore all of the various speed showings that Grievous and other characters performed that exceed the invisible baseline? Grievous threw twenty blows per second and attacked faster than Obi-Wan, whose processing speed is superhumanly accelerated, could even think. Obi-Wan deflected fire from an entire army. Palpatine fought faster than Anakin could even see. Anakin was fighting fast enough to generate a blue haze and afterimages. All of these speed feats are better than just "faster than the human eye." So, no, Grievous is not merely faster than the human eye, and he is not the fastest character there is.
More to the point, Anakin has dodged lightning bolts, deflected fire from miniature armies, reacted to ships flying at sublight speeds, and so on, and in spite of the fact that he employed that reaction time as he traveled to Palpatine's office where Sidious was dueling Mace, Anakin was still incapable of following the movements of Palpatine's blade. Palpatine has also fought faster than Darth Maul, Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar, and Mace Windu could see, none of whom are far below Anakin in sheer speed.
Even in Palpatines most powerful incarnation, Dark Empire, he was still percievable in his duel with Luke.
And Luke is also ludicrously fast. He was reacting to ships flying at sublight speeds and seeing them in slow motion during the Rebellion era. Your point? Palpatine was also imperceptible to Leia in Luke and Sidious' second duel. So, no, there is just a speed disparity there.
Again, Force Barrier is one of the most basic Force Powers to exist. Frankly if Nihilus can lift up a starship from a planet with the Force and hold it together as well (presumably even at high speeds) then suggesting that he can't form a simply barrier in front of him is just illogical and disingenuous.
In other words, you have no evidential criteria for your claim; so you deflected the point as "disingenuous." Several Force sensitives have displayed no affinity for Force Barrier. So unless you have proof that Nihilus does (which, again, there is none), you have no case.
You severely overestimate the power of a darkside nexus. Even a strong nexus such as Vjun only empowered Dooku by a negligable amount, not even bringing him equal with Yoda, despite the fact that the two are already quite close in power and ability.
Your cherry-picking of isolated locations is noted, but let's look at other examples. Dathomir, a dark side nexus, was powerful enough that Talzin could create illusory armies there yet not do so on any other world without Dathomir's energies subsisting her powers. Yaving IV was a powerful enough dark side nexus that Exar Kun was capable of casually affecting the physical realm while a disembodied spirit, as he himself stated that his Temples granted him the power that he otherwise lacked on his own to do. Haruun Kal radiated a Force nexus enough that Mace Windu compared Kar Vastor's powers to Yoda or Anakin's, yet Kar was never shown as powerful anywhere else. The ruins of the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, another Force nexus, made Lord Nyax so powerful he could effortlessly throw around capital ships. The Valley of the Jedi rendered non-Force sensitive people Force sensitive. The ambient Force energies of Korriban allowed several Sith spirits to manipulate or kill the living even after Korriban's inherent strength in the Force had largely dissipated after millennia.
In other words, your point has no merit. Mentioning a single Force nexus, which was never specified to be among the most potent, and comparing that to Malachor, a planet that saw the deaths of armies of Force sensitives whose lives and Force energies were bled out of them all at once, is reaching considerably.
Even if Malachor V was the strongest nexus to ever exist, it wouldn't have heightened Nihilus that much. Even going on the insane assumption that it doubled his power, it would still be a greater feat than any Yoda has done. Even moreso considering the gravity well of Malachor, which would have made the task more difficult, potentially cancelling out any boost he recieved from Malachor.
So in other words, more speculation. You make a conjectural analysis and provide no evidence for it, because there is no evidence for it. You presuming the nature of the potency of Malachor's energies amounts to nothing. If anything, given how many Force sensitives died all at once on Malachor, it would more likely be of a concentration comparable to that of the Jedi Temple Force nexus, a miasma prodigious enough to lift capital ships. In fact, Malachor was so devastated by a Force-based transaction that its very core is unstable. So how you came to this conclusion that Malachor offers little additional energy is beyond my ability to discern.
Since you love Colonel Tobin's statements so much, you might evaluate his talk about a potential link between Nihilus and the Ravager, which he articulated might be Nihilus' weakness. Given the very focused collection of Force energies that subsumes Malachor, this is hardly a supposition that should be disregarded without a reasonable refutation. Am I saying that Nihilus certainly is bonded to his ship? No. But the possibility was raised at some length. The fact that this feat of Nihilus' is entirely off-panel also works against you. An off-panel feat on a world rank with Force energies with a ship that Nihilus might have a special connection to is a very weak foundation for an argument. The fact is you don't know whether Nihilus' showing is all under his own power or not or whether he can replicate that degree of power under any other circumstances. The fact that he failed to properly utilize TK anywhere else definitely detracts from your argument even more. Contrarily, Yoda has several on-panel/page/screen showings we can surmise a fair assessment of. Destroying landing vessels, which were hundreds of meters in length, without exhausting his full reserves is certainly enough to at least equal Nihilus' one dubious showing while being generous enough to assume that that one unseen showing is even all due to Nihilus' powers alone.
As to your questions, he was incredibly weakened in that fight. In fact remember that he does demonstrate his TK by stunning the party as soon as they meet, and then again during the fight. however since in occured during gameplay we can only guess what went on in it.
Force Stun is an altogether separate power from Telekinesis. So this doesn't prove anything.
Finally, even if Yoda is superior in trms of TK, it doesn't matter. All Nihilus has to do is delay him long enough so that he can use his drain. And then its GG unfortunately.
Right, but you have no proof Nihilus can accomplish this. He has laughable/few combat showings, was beaten by characters significantly weaker than Yoda (even if he was marginally weakened), and he has no speed feats to suggest he can hold out. Thus, he loses.
This really isn't complicated.
This is a fight and they have knowledge about each other already. Nice try though.
You seem to have a pattern of ignoring whatever disagrees with your opinion. Morals are on as per the battle forum rules. Nihilus has a decidedly oblivious mindset toward other beings. This is his standard mindset. With that mindset stipulated, obviously he would be aware that he is in a fight; that changes nothing about his tendency to be slow to act against beings he considers beneath himself.
@Silver2467: This. Yoda is almost as powerful as Sidious in EP3, but wasn't powerful enough, and Nihilus has done NOTHING to prove himself of being capable of defeating Yoda. Yoda can probably move faster than Nihilus can use Drain, then Nihilus has nothing that comes close to Yoda.
Yoda wins...he is the 2nd most powerful force user ever and he could beat Darth Nihilus...Yoda also is(from my knowledge) more skilled with a light saber and again would beat him in that category...Yoda wins.
Yoda isn't the 2nd most powerful Force user ever...
@Nephthys17: Yes, it is that simple. Nihilus was killed by Meetra and Visas in a standard duel. He was not weakened, and he was no match for both, as stated in The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia. More than that, Warb Null had no body either. Similar to Nihilus, he was a spirit residing in an armor, yet Null was killed by Ulic slashing his helmet off. Nihilus is no different. He is dependent on his armor to subsist himself, as his armor is his pseudo-skin. If his armor is damaged, he dies. Nothing complicated about killing Nihilus. Slash him up, breach his armor, tear him apart, whatever you prefer. Yoda is more than capable of any of these.
Not true. Kreia purposefully sent Nihilus to Telos in order to kill him. She knew that he would be so weak traveling there that he couldn't return. Also, they utilized Visas' Force bond to Nihilus to weaken him significantly. It was anything but a standard duel. Without that weakness, Meetra and company would not have won. Nihilus was:
Weak from the travel.
Weak from not feeding (which is combined with the above)
Weak from the exploitation of Visas' bond.
While it is a matter of who hits first, I give this to Nihilus.
Yoda wins...he is the 2nd most powerful force user ever and he could beat Darth Nihilus...Yoda also is(from my knowledge) more skilled with a light saber and again would beat him in that category...Yoda wins.
Yoda isn't the 2nd most powerful Force user ever...
There is no proof Nihilus will be able to drain Yoda. He didnt drain Kreia and he didnt drain Sion. Yoda can kill him in less then a second.
Sion could not die unless he willed himself to die. And he did drain Kreia (the method in which he cut her off from the Force, myself and Silver established, is a form of Drain - completely different from "Sever Force," which involves creating a wall of light to cut a person off from the Force).
Yoda wins...he is the 2nd most powerful force user ever and he could beat Darth Nihilus...Yoda also is(from my knowledge) more skilled with a light saber and again would beat him in that category...Yoda wins.
Yoda isn't the 2nd most powerful Force user ever...
Yoda wins...he is the 2nd most powerful force user ever and he could beat Darth Nihilus...Yoda also is(from my knowledge) more skilled with a light saber and again would beat him in that category...Yoda wins.
Yoda isn't the 2nd most powerful Force user ever...
Not true. Kreia purposefully sent Nihilus to Telos in order to kill him. She knew that he would be so weak traveling there that he couldn't return.
I have seen no entries that state Nihilus was weak from travel. If he is weak from travel, then anywhere he travels would weaken him; so the event on Telos is not an isolated circumstance. More to the point, Nihilus fed continually from various worlds before arriving at Telos.
Also, they utilized Visas' Force bond to Nihilus to weaken him significantly.
Proof that it was a significant loss?
Without that weakness, Meetra and company would not have won.
I'm still not convinced of that. Nihilus has nothing to offer in a fight besides Drain. If he could have fed on them, sure, they would have lost. Without that, what does he have to show for his power? An off-panel telekinetic feat mired in situational factors?
Weak from not feeding (which is combined with the above)
He did feed.
While it is a matter of who hits first, I give this to Nihilus.
How is Nihilus supposed to strike first when Yoda is vastly faster?
Not true. Kreia purposefully sent Nihilus to Telos in order to kill him. She knew that he would be so weak traveling there that he couldn't return.
I have seen no entries that state Nihilus was weak from travel. If he is weak from travel, then anywhere he travels would weaken him; so the event on Telos is not an isolated circumstance. More to the point, Nihilus fed continually from various worlds before arriving at Telos.
Also, they utilized Visas' Force bond to Nihilus to weaken him significantly.
Proof that it was a significant loss?
Without that weakness, Meetra and company would not have won.
I'm still not convinced of that. Nihilus has nothing to offer in a fight besides Drain. If he could have fed on them, sure, they would have lost. Without that, what does he have to show for his power? An off-panel telekinetic feat mired in situational factors?
Weak from not feeding (which is combined with the above)
He did feed.
While it is a matter of who hits first, I give this to Nihilus.
How is Nihilus supposed to strike first when Yoda is vastly faster?
I would have to go play KOTOR II again. But from what I remember of circumstances (I am, for now, not considering source books. Just what is stated in the game, because I recognize that certain retcons may or may not have taken place, which I will ignore), Force users had become quite scarce and therefore Nihilus was in search of them. The biggest feeding he had had in quite some time was on Katarr. He had not fed like that in quite some time. And to be honest, I don't recall him feeding period. If you could enlighten me on that...
The reason the flight taxed him is because it was a very long distance. Traveling is fine, but that distance would weaken him - he did not think ahead, because he is a creature of instinct, which Kreia exploited.
I do not know to what degree Visas weakened him. I assume it was to a level where Meetra and company could defeat him.
I am looking at their personalities. I don't know how Yoda would act against a being he never saw nor faced; whether he'd attack head-first. I rather doubt it. Whereas Nihilus doesn't care, and would just fight.
This shows that he was weak due to the fact that there were no Jedi on Telos (the Exile isn't lying; in-game dialogue always shows [Lie] when it actually is a lie). 7:23.
There is no proof Nihilus will be able to drain Yoda. He didnt drain Kreia and he didnt drain Sion. Yoda can kill him in less then a second.
Sion could not die unless he willed himself to die. And he did drain Kreia (the method in which he cut her off from the Force, myself and Silver established, is a form of Drain - completely different from "Sever Force," which involves creating a wall of light to cut a person off from the Force).
Sion cant be drained? I highly doubt. Thats a form of drain? Why do you think so?
Where can i read about Sidious mentaly controling Byss population? Because i dont remember all that SW staff. Just asking. =D
There is no proof Nihilus will be able to drain Yoda. He didnt drain Kreia and he didnt drain Sion. Yoda can kill him in less then a second.
Sion could not die unless he willed himself to die. And he did drain Kreia (the method in which he cut her off from the Force, myself and Silver established, is a form of Drain - completely different from "Sever Force," which involves creating a wall of light to cut a person off from the Force).
Sion cant be drained? I highly doubt. Thats a form of drain? Why do you think so?
Where can i read about Sidious mentaly controling Byss population? Because i dont remember all that SW staff. Just asking. =D
Read this thread. Myself and Silver discussed Nihilus' power at length. Go to page 4 where we discuss drain.
As for Sion, Nihilus and he never fought. We just know that Sion can't die.
There is no proof Nihilus will be able to drain Yoda. He didnt drain Kreia and he didnt drain Sion. Yoda can kill him in less then a second.
Sion could not die unless he willed himself to die. And he did drain Kreia (the method in which he cut her off from the Force, myself and Silver established, is a form of Drain - completely different from "Sever Force," which involves creating a wall of light to cut a person off from the Force).
Sion cant be drained? I highly doubt. Thats a form of drain? Why do you think so?
Where can i read about Sidious mentaly controling Byss population? Because i dont remember all that SW staff. Just asking. =D
Read this thread. Myself and Silver discussed Nihilus' power at length. Go to page 4 where we discuss drain.
As for Sion, Nihilus and he never fought. We just know that Sion can't die.
Dark Empire.
Nihilus was throuing lightning at Sion in KOTOR2, if i not mistake.
I would have to go play KOTOR II again. But from what I remember of circumstances (I am, for now, not considering source books. Just what is stated in the game, because I recognize that certain retcons may or may not have taken place, which I will ignore), Force users had become quite scarce and therefore Nihilus was in search of them. The biggest feeding he had had in quite some time was on Katarr. He had not fed like that in quite some time. And to be honest, I don't recall him feeding period. If you could enlighten me on that...
@Silver2467 said:
In the meantime, Darth Nihilus led his Sith forces from his flagship, the Ravager, drawing more and more power from worlds that he blasted into ruin.
--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
The reason the flight taxed him is because it was a very long distance. Traveling is fine, but that distance would weaken him - he did not think ahead, because he is a creature of instinct, which Kreia exploited.
Well, again, do you have any proof of this?
I do not know to what degree Visas weakened him. I assume it was to a level where Meetra and company could defeat him.
It seems everyone assumes that Nihilus had to be brought down to Meetra and Visas' level. Where they draw this from is beyond me. He is incapable of siphong the energy of either one, and without that, what does he have to present in combat?
I am looking at their personalities. I don't know how Yoda would act against a being he never saw nor faced; whether he'd attack head-first. I rather doubt it. Whereas Nihilus doesn't care, and would just fight.
The OP says that the characters have prior knowledge on their opponent. When Yoda has had prior knowledge of his enemy (Dooku, Palpatine, Yinchorri, etc.), he has never hesitated to attack.
This shows that he was weak due to the fact that there were no Jedi on Telos (the Exile isn't lying; in-game dialogue always shows [Lie] when it actually is a lie). 7:23.
Actually, this only strengthens my point. The Exile said that Nihilus would exhaust himself if he attempted to Drain Telos. He had yet to do so; so he wasn't weakened.
Furthermore, Nihilus is constantly losing power. He has to continually feed in order to subsist himself, because his hunger is consuming him, and he needs to sate it for a transitory period and then continue feed it again later. In fact, in the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, it was stated that when Nihilus feeds, the euphoric, sated experience he gains from it is very brief. So really, "Nihilus at full power" has no established meaning. He is weakened, at some length, all the time.
There is no proof Nihilus will be able to drain Yoda. He didnt drain Kreia and he didnt drain Sion. Yoda can kill him in less then a second.
Sion could not die unless he willed himself to die. And he did drain Kreia (the method in which he cut her off from the Force, myself and Silver established, is a form of Drain - completely different from "Sever Force," which involves creating a wall of light to cut a person off from the Force).
Sion cant be drained? I highly doubt. Thats a form of drain? Why do you think so?
Where can i read about Sidious mentaly controling Byss population? Because i dont remember all that SW staff. Just asking. =D
Read this thread. Myself and Silver discussed Nihilus' power at length. Go to page 4 where we discuss drain.
As for Sion, Nihilus and he never fought. We just know that Sion can't die.
Dark Empire.
And i am too lazy to read all that staff. Sorry. But anyway, Nihilus didnt consume her Force, or life. I mean, she was force-sensitive and what we can see - her energies were not consumed by Nihilus. It was like Force Harmony.
Yoda wins...he is the 2nd most powerful force user ever and he could beat Darth Nihilus...Yoda also is(from my knowledge) more skilled with a light saber and again would beat him in that category...Yoda wins.
Yoda isn't the 2nd most powerful Force user ever...
Who is?
Luke Skywalker is #1. Palpatine is #2.
Luke Skywalker got owned by Palpatine and Yoda stalemated said Palpatine(since Yoda couldn't beat him he was forced to flee..Palpatine never actually beat him). Palpatine was only beaten because Darth Vader defeated him. I have always thought it to be this order:
1. Anakin Skywalker
2. Yoda & Palpatine
No. Luke is the strongest. You are only thinking in terms of the movies. Luke became the strongest; what he was in the movies is nothing compared to what he would become. In many ways, Luke is what Anakin could have been.
I believe in the book, Yoda flat out lost.
@Jedisupermaster said:
@JediXMan said:
@Jedisupermaster said:
@JediXMan said:
@Jedisupermaster said:
There is no proof Nihilus will be able to drain Yoda. He didnt drain Kreia and he didnt drain Sion. Yoda can kill him in less then a second.
Sion could not die unless he willed himself to die. And he did drain Kreia (the method in which he cut her off from the Force, myself and Silver established, is a form of Drain - completely different from "Sever Force," which involves creating a wall of light to cut a person off from the Force).
Sion cant be drained? I highly doubt. Thats a form of drain? Why do you think so?
Where can i read about Sidious mentaly controling Byss population? Because i dont remember all that SW staff. Just asking. =D
Read this thread. Myself and Silver discussed Nihilus' power at length. Go to page 4 where we discuss drain.
As for Sion, Nihilus and he never fought. We just know that Sion can't die.
Dark Empire.
And i am too lazy to read all that staff. Sorry. But anyway, Nihilus didnt consume her Force, or life. I mean, she was force-sensitive and what we can see - her energies were not consumed by Nihilus. It was like Force Harmony.
Again, read what we discussed on page 4. We came to the conclusion that the dark side equivalent of Sever Force involved drain.
Force Harmony is only used by the light.
@Silver2467 said:
Well, again, do you have any proof of this?
I do not know to what degree Visas weakened him. I assume it was to a level where Meetra and company could defeat him.
It seems everyone assumes that Nihilus had to be brought down to Meetra and Visas' level. Where they draw this from is beyond me. He is incapable of siphong the energy of either one, and without that, what does he have to present in combat?
I am looking at their personalities. I don't know how Yoda would act against a being he never saw nor faced; whether he'd attack head-first. I rather doubt it. Whereas Nihilus doesn't care, and would just fight.
The OP says that the characters have prior knowledge on their opponent. When Yoda has had prior knowledge of his enemy (Dooku, Palpatine, Yinchorri, etc.), he has never hesitated to attack.
This shows that he was weak due to the fact that there were no Jedi on Telos (the Exile isn't lying; in-game dialogue always shows [Lie] when it actually is a lie). 7:23.
Actually, this only strengthens my point. The Exile said that Nihilus would exhaust himself if he attempted to Drain Telos. He had yet to do so; so he wasn't weakened.
Furthermore, Nihilus is constantly losing power. He has to continually feed in order to subsist himself, because his hunger is consuming him, and he needs to sate it for a transitory period and then continue feed it again later. In fact, in the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, it was stated that when Nihilus feeds, the euphoric, sated experience he gains from it is very brief. So really, "Nihilus at full power" has no established meaning. He is weakened, at some length, all the time.
1. No. I am pretty sure it was stated in the game, but I can't find it right now.
2. Nothing. But just because he couldn't drain the Exile or Visas doesn't mean he can't do it to Yoda. Visas and Nihilus have a bond, and she wasn't drained on Katarr - either because Nihilus didn't want to kill her or because she was, for some reason, immune. And Meetra is, herself, a wound in the Force like Nihilus.
3. I missed that. I rarely read the OP.
4. Not just Telos. When he tried to do anything at all he was weak. He was weakened when he just tried to drain the Exile. So it's the matter that he was weakened when he came there with no Force users to feed on.
5. Perhaps. But I'd assume "full power" means right after a good feeding and without doing anything prior to exert himself (like move his ship).
@JediXMan: Excuse me but, which is the version that Lucas considers to be Cannon, movies or the books? Cause if he lost in the books then there is a inconsistency and 1 of them would have to be not cannon.
Lucas? Who gives a crap what Lucas says?
But Lucas even is inconsistent. He even included book material into the movies that he never even came up with (hello, Aayla Secura. Oh how do you do, Coruscant).
Also, this is a thread involving Darth Nihilus, an EU character. So either this thread doesn't exist at all, or you're willing to accept the EU. Can't have both, bud.
@Jedisupermaster said:
@JediXMan said:
@Jedisupermaster said:
@JediXMan said:
@Jedisupermaster said:
There is no proof Nihilus will be able to drain Yoda. He didnt drain Kreia and he didnt drain Sion. Yoda can kill him in less then a second.
Sion could not die unless he willed himself to die. And he did drain Kreia (the method in which he cut her off from the Force, myself and Silver established, is a form of Drain - completely different from "Sever Force," which involves creating a wall of light to cut a person off from the Force).
Sion cant be drained? I highly doubt. Thats a form of drain? Why do you think so?
Where can i read about Sidious mentaly controling Byss population? Because i dont remember all that SW staff. Just asking. =D
Read this thread. Myself and Silver discussed Nihilus' power at length. Go to page 4 where we discuss drain.
As for Sion, Nihilus and he never fought. We just know that Sion can't die.
Dark Empire.
Nihilus was throuing lightning at Sion in KOTOR2, if i not mistake.
Cut-content that may or may not be canon. But he only used lightning and did not drain Sion, which strengthens my point.
1. No. I am pretty sure it was stated in the game, but I can't find it right now.
2. Nothing. But just because he couldn't drain the Exile or Visas doesn't mean he can't do it to Yoda. Visas and Nihilus have a bond, and she wasn't drained on Katarr - either because Nihilus didn't want to kill her or because she was, for some reason, immune. And Meetra is, herself, a wound in the Force like Nihilus.
3. I missed that. I rarely read the OP.
4. Not just Telos. When he tried to do anything at all he was weak. He was weakened when he just tried to drain the Exile. So it's the matter that he was weakened when he came there with no Force users to feed on.
5. Perhaps. But I'd assume "full power" means right after a good feeding and without doing anything prior to exert himself (like move his ship).
1. All right.
2. I never said Nihilus couldn't Drain Yoda. He certainly could if he had the opportunity. Problem is, I see no reason Yoda would give him that opportunity. He has more than enough speed and power to kill Nihilus before that happens with the OP granting him the information to prompt him to do so. Nihilus has no showings to suggest he could avoid or defend against an assault from Yoda.
4. Yes, he was weakened when he attempted to Drain the Exile but to an unspecified extent.
5. The problem is that Nihilus' power is more supposition than fact. He has one known primary skill: Drain on a planetary scale. Aside from that, he either accomplished showings that lack contextual information to draw a conclusive consensus from or showings that are just not very impressive.
How reliable do you consider Unseen, Unheard to be?
Is this question directed at me? If so, I consider it reliable insofar as it is Visas' recollection, though I find her narration of Nihilus' powers, as usual, characteristically uninformed and hyperbolic. All Unseen, Unheard really shows is an event that we already knew happened: Nihilus killed life on Katarr and took Visas as his apprentice. Not much else to say about it really.
How reliable do you consider Unseen, Unheard to be?
Is this question directed at me? If so, I consider it reliable insofar as it is Visas' recollection, though I find her narration of Nihilus' powers, as usual, characteristically uninformed and hyperbolic. All Unseen, Unheard really shows is an event that we already knew happened: Nihilus killed life on Katarr and took Visas as his apprentice. Not much else to say about it really.
It was directed at both of you. So you don't buy into the extent of Nihilus's powers as shown? One word, all life died, etc.?
So you don't buy into the extent of Nihilus's powers as shown? One word, all life died, etc.?
She had no way to know that one way or another. So, no, I don't.
I concur. But then I'm told Nihilus and Visas can exchange memories/thoughts via their bond?
Not sure what to say about that. All I know is this is Visas' opinion, and like almost everything else having to do with Nihilus, there is little confirmation for it one way or another.
So you don't buy into the extent of Nihilus's powers as shown? One word, all life died, etc.?
She had no way to know that one way or another. So, no, I don't.
I concur. But then I'm told Nihilus and Visas can exchange memories/thoughts via their bond?
Not sure what to say about that. All I know is this is Visas' opinion, and like almost everything else having to do with Nihilus, there is little confirmation for it one way or another.
Just to pick your brain a little more, where do you draw the line on supposition and deduction? For example, though there is no confirmation that Palpatine knows how to resist a Force drain, you accept it as the case. For the record, I’m not trying to be combative, just genuinely curious.
@G1d3on: I draw the line at unreasonable suspicion. If there was an objective source that hinted that Nihilus' power is invoked by his speech, I could accept that, even if it was never outright stated and assuming there are no instances that contradict it. The problem is that Visas is not a reliable source, and there are events that contradict the idea that Nihilus speaks and kills life. He had conversations with Traya, Tobin, and spoke in front of Canderous, yet none of them died from his power. So there is a discrepancy between Visas' report of the matter and what has actually been demonstrated. As I said, Visas herself is hardly objective anyway. Her propensity for rambling about Nihilus' power and the fact that she never witnessed whatever means Nihilus employed to Drain Katarr lead me to believe she was simply being poetic in her description of the event.
Running on your example, there are several reasons I believe that Palpatine can resist Drain:
Palpatine is confirmed as having mastered virtually all known applications of the Force.
Sidious himself is especially adept at Force Drain.
The Emperor's Dark Side Adepts were proficient with Drain as well and utilized it on Byss, as Palpatine did, and the Emperor has said more than once that he never teaches his subordinates anything that could be used against him.
The only person Dooku could have learned a resistance to Drain from was Palpatine, whom he met with directly before uncovering the Dark Reaper, as Ulic's presence never spoke to Dooku. As well, the techniques for immunity to life-draining effects were rare among the Jedi at the time, proven when Obi-Wan said that Anakin, who knew the technique, was the only one who could confront the Dark Reaper and when further demonstrated when a high-level Jedi like Mace Windu had his life force fed on by a life vampire.
^This I call reasonable deduction. Can I understand if others disagree? Sure. To my knowledge, there are no sources that outright state in no uncertain terms "Palpatine is immune to Drain." But that doesn't mean this isn't a solid case for it to be true, and with the abundance of evidence, I accept it to be the case. Comparing that with Visas' opinion of Nihilus, there are several factors that are contradictory and unreliable, which gives me no incentive to believe she was telling the truth.
@G1d3on: I draw the line at unreasonable suspicion. If there was an objective source that hinted that Nihilus' power is invoked by his speech, I could accept that, even if it was never outright stated and assuming there are no instances that contradict it. The problem is that Visas is not a reliable source, and there are events that contradict the idea that Nihilus speaks and kills life. He had conversations with Traya, Tobin, and spoke in front of Canderous, yet none of them died from his power. So there is a discrepancy between Visas' report of the matter and what has actually been demonstrated. As I said, Visas herself is hardly objective anyway. Her propensity for rambling about Nihilus' power and the fact that she never witnessed whatever means Nihilus employed to Drain Katarr lead me to believe she was simply being poetic in her description of the event.
Running on your example, there are several reasons I believe that Palpatine can resist Drain:
Palpatine is confirmed as having mastered virtually all known applications of the Force.
Sidious himself is especially adept at Force Drain.
The Emperor's Dark Side Adepts were proficient with Drain as well and utilized it on Byss, as Palpatine did, and the Emperor has said more than once that he never teaches his subordinates anything that could be used against him.
The only person Dooku could have learned a resistance to Drain from was Palpatine, whom he met with directly before uncovering the Dark Reaper, as Ulic's presence never spoke to Dooku. As well, the techniques for immunity to life-draining effects were rare among the Jedi at the time, proven when Obi-Wan said that Anakin, who knew the technique, was the only one who could confront the Dark Reaper and when further demonstrated when a high-level Jedi like Mace Windu had his life force fed on by a life vampire.
^This I call reasonable deduction. Can I understand if others disagree? Sure. To my knowledge, there are no sources that outright state in no uncertain terms "Palpatine is immune to Drain." But that doesn't mean this isn't a solid case for it to be true, and with the abundance of evidence, I accept it to be the case. Comparing that with Visas' opinion of Nihilus, there are several factors that are contradictory and unreliable, which gives me no incentive to believe she was telling the truth.
My only quibble is that the confirmation that Palpatine has mastered all known applications of the Force comes from the Dark Empire Sourcebook and is carefully qualified by the phrase “it is believed.” Given the myriad of sources, Palpatine unquestionably had access greater wealth of Force-related knowledge than any other known character—but that isn’t to say he mastered all of it.
Barring that, I found your explanation informative and persuasive. You do make a very strong case.
My only quibble is that the confirmation that Palpatine has mastered all known applications of the Force comes from the Dark Empire Sourcebook and is carefully qualified by the phrase “it is believed.” Given the myriad of sources, Palpatine unquestionably had access greater wealth of Force-related knowledge than any other known character—but that isn’t to say he mastered all of it.
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