Top 5 Leaguers vs. Top 5 Avengers

@Dredeuced said:

@BigCimmerian said:

@Epicbeast3000 said:

@BigCimmerian: Flash cannot solo thor. Superman and Wonder woman can't beat them all alone. Thor and Superman is one of the best fights alone on comicvine. But justice league wins due to them having 4 powerhouses and avengers only having 1

Bloodlusted Flash can solo Thor, Superman and Wonder Woman combined. He can perform Infinite Mass Punch on Superman before Supes could react. He can turn them into statues before thez would think about moving.

Barry Allen in the New-52 can do none of these things. He's much weaker than the previous Flash, Wally West, who could absolutely solo this Avenger's squad with Morals off. Barry has no high level striking feats, couldn't handle Superman faster than Superman could react (Superman tagged him and sent him flying), and hasn't shown even the slightest bit of speed stealing/lending powers that Wally had. All he's got on his resume is going fast, above average striking, and phasing. Useful powers that could probably beat Tony, Pym, and Cap, but he wouldn't do crap to Thor or Hulk.

The problem there is that it's been well established that Barry is the source of the Speed Force. To quote Max Mercury: "When [Allen runs, he generates] the kinetic wall between the present and the time barrier. It's an electrical energy that exists in every dimension, every universe, and every era. It touches every part of reality. It contains the knowledge of every place and time. The Speed Force is the all-encompassing Flash Fact."

So it means that the powers of the Speed Force will never change, even through a reboot, since they encompass the whole of reality and all universes throughout all times. And since Barry is the very source of the Speed Force he can potentially use any and all of its abilities; so it means that realistically his previous feats from before Flashpoint (and during and after Flashpoint) are still valid. Those include the speed stealing, the moving ten times faster than the speed of light, etc.

Now that of course makes it silly that he hasn't used those powers since the reboot, but it's a comic so it's all about silly.

@rpottage said:

@Dredeuced said:

@BigCimmerian said:

@Epicbeast3000 said:

@BigCimmerian: Flash cannot solo thor. Superman and Wonder woman can't beat them all alone. Thor and Superman is one of the best fights alone on comicvine. But justice league wins due to them having 4 powerhouses and avengers only having 1

Bloodlusted Flash can solo Thor, Superman and Wonder Woman combined. He can perform Infinite Mass Punch on Superman before Supes could react. He can turn them into statues before thez would think about moving.

Barry Allen in the New-52 can do none of these things. He's much weaker than the previous Flash, Wally West, who could absolutely solo this Avenger's squad with Morals off. Barry has no high level striking feats, couldn't handle Superman faster than Superman could react (Superman tagged him and sent him flying), and hasn't shown even the slightest bit of speed stealing/lending powers that Wally had. All he's got on his resume is going fast, above average striking, and phasing. Useful powers that could probably beat Tony, Pym, and Cap, but he wouldn't do crap to Thor or Hulk.

The problem there is that it's been well established that Barry is the source of the Speed Force. To quote Max Mercury: "When [Allen runs, he generates] the kinetic wall between the present and the time barrier. It's an electrical energy that exists in every dimension, every universe, and every era. It touches every part of reality. It contains the knowledge of every place and time. The Speed Force is the all-encompassing Flash Fact."

So it means that the powers of the Speed Force will never change, even through a reboot, since they encompass the whole of reality and all universes throughout all times. And since Barry is the very source of the Speed Force he can potentially use any and all of its abilities; so it means that realistically his previous feats from before Flashpoint (and during and after Flashpoint) are still valid. Those include the speed stealing, the moving ten times faster than the speed of light, etc.

Now that of course makes it silly that he hasn't used those powers since the reboot, but it's a comic so it's all about silly.

Doesn't matter. As of now, Barry is still figuring out how to use the Speed Force. He literally just sorted out how to use his Speed Mind without slipping into an eternal stupor. He doesn't know how to use the powers that Wally learned to use, even if he's the source or the one most closely tied to the Speed Force. If he hasn't shown the ability to use it, he can't use it. Wally has, and that's why Wally is much more powerful despite the fact that Barry SHOULD be able to do everything Wally can.

As an analogy, just because someone is the most physically gifted human of all time doesn't mean they'll be a better soccer player than someone who's got twenty years of experience on them with similar, but lesser physical abilities.

@Dredeuced: I know wally is the most powerful flash, but what is his power level, skyfather??

@Epicbeast3000 said:

@Dredeuced: I know wally is the most powerful flash, but what is his power level, skyfather??

Probably just below skyfather. He's got strong Herald level powers for his skillset, but he can beat practically anyone who can't counter his abilities with reaction speed, durability, or time manipulation.

@Dredeuced said:

@rpottage said:

@Dredeuced said:

@BigCimmerian said:

@Epicbeast3000 said:

@BigCimmerian: Flash cannot solo thor. Superman and Wonder woman can't beat them all alone. Thor and Superman is one of the best fights alone on comicvine. But justice league wins due to them having 4 powerhouses and avengers only having 1

Bloodlusted Flash can solo Thor, Superman and Wonder Woman combined. He can perform Infinite Mass Punch on Superman before Supes could react. He can turn them into statues before thez would think about moving.

Barry Allen in the New-52 can do none of these things. He's much weaker than the previous Flash, Wally West, who could absolutely solo this Avenger's squad with Morals off. Barry has no high level striking feats, couldn't handle Superman faster than Superman could react (Superman tagged him and sent him flying), and hasn't shown even the slightest bit of speed stealing/lending powers that Wally had. All he's got on his resume is going fast, above average striking, and phasing. Useful powers that could probably beat Tony, Pym, and Cap, but he wouldn't do crap to Thor or Hulk.

The problem there is that it's been well established that Barry is the source of the Speed Force. To quote Max Mercury: "When [Allen runs, he generates] the kinetic wall between the present and the time barrier. It's an electrical energy that exists in every dimension, every universe, and every era. It touches every part of reality. It contains the knowledge of every place and time. The Speed Force is the all-encompassing Flash Fact."

So it means that the powers of the Speed Force will never change, even through a reboot, since they encompass the whole of reality and all universes throughout all times. And since Barry is the very source of the Speed Force he can potentially use any and all of its abilities; so it means that realistically his previous feats from before Flashpoint (and during and after Flashpoint) are still valid. Those include the speed stealing, the moving ten times faster than the speed of light, etc.

Now that of course makes it silly that he hasn't used those powers since the reboot, but it's a comic so it's all about silly.

Doesn't matter. As of now, Barry is still figuring out how to use the Speed Force. He literally just sorted out how to use his Speed Mind without slipping into an eternal stupor. He doesn't know how to use the powers that Wally learned to use, even if he's the source or the one most closely tied to the Speed Force. If he hasn't shown the ability to use it, he can't use it. Wally has, and that's why Wally is much more powerful despite the fact that Barry SHOULD be able to do everything Wally can.

As an analogy, just because someone is the most physically gifted human of all time doesn't mean they'll be a better soccer player than someone who's got twenty years of experience on them with similar, but lesser physical abilities.

You're going to have to clarify what you're referring to. My issue there is that you're referring to Wally being more powerful than Barry and having access to more of the abilities, but New-52 Wally isn't a Flash and to my knowledge still hasn't appeared anywhere; and pre-52 Barry was better at time/dimensional travel as well as self-molecular control and was the Flash that could undo the Anti-Life Equation and Wally was unable to steal his speed (in fact no speedster could steal his speed).

I mean Wally was never really shown or described as being more powerful or better with the speed force; he simply had over 20 more years of showings while Barry was dead. But the major stuff like Speed, Time/dimensional travel, self-molecular control/phasing, IMP, etc. all either had them at about the same (like the speed and IMP), or Barry was better at (like the phasing).

My point was that pre-52 Barry did demonstrate such abilities and pre-52 Barry would easily solo. I think that's pretty obvious.

However; unlike other heroes, New-52 Barry is the same as Pre-52. New-52 was a direct result of Barry Allen changing the timeline, which means he's the one person who remains the same. In fact he was also in the Speed Force during Crisis so New-52 Barry is also Pre-52 Barry and Pre-Crisis Barry which means all of his feats from those times should apply because he didn't ever actually get a reboot.

@rpottage said:

@Dredeuced said:

@rpottage said:

@Dredeuced said:

@BigCimmerian said:

@Epicbeast3000 said:

@BigCimmerian: Flash cannot solo thor. Superman and Wonder woman can't beat them all alone. Thor and Superman is one of the best fights alone on comicvine. But justice league wins due to them having 4 powerhouses and avengers only having 1

Bloodlusted Flash can solo Thor, Superman and Wonder Woman combined. He can perform Infinite Mass Punch on Superman before Supes could react. He can turn them into statues before thez would think about moving.

Barry Allen in the New-52 can do none of these things. He's much weaker than the previous Flash, Wally West, who could absolutely solo this Avenger's squad with Morals off. Barry has no high level striking feats, couldn't handle Superman faster than Superman could react (Superman tagged him and sent him flying), and hasn't shown even the slightest bit of speed stealing/lending powers that Wally had. All he's got on his resume is going fast, above average striking, and phasing. Useful powers that could probably beat Tony, Pym, and Cap, but he wouldn't do crap to Thor or Hulk.

The problem there is that it's been well established that Barry is the source of the Speed Force. To quote Max Mercury: "When [Allen runs, he generates] the kinetic wall between the present and the time barrier. It's an electrical energy that exists in every dimension, every universe, and every era. It touches every part of reality. It contains the knowledge of every place and time. The Speed Force is the all-encompassing Flash Fact."

So it means that the powers of the Speed Force will never change, even through a reboot, since they encompass the whole of reality and all universes throughout all times. And since Barry is the very source of the Speed Force he can potentially use any and all of its abilities; so it means that realistically his previous feats from before Flashpoint (and during and after Flashpoint) are still valid. Those include the speed stealing, the moving ten times faster than the speed of light, etc.

Now that of course makes it silly that he hasn't used those powers since the reboot, but it's a comic so it's all about silly.

Doesn't matter. As of now, Barry is still figuring out how to use the Speed Force. He literally just sorted out how to use his Speed Mind without slipping into an eternal stupor. He doesn't know how to use the powers that Wally learned to use, even if he's the source or the one most closely tied to the Speed Force. If he hasn't shown the ability to use it, he can't use it. Wally has, and that's why Wally is much more powerful despite the fact that Barry SHOULD be able to do everything Wally can.

As an analogy, just because someone is the most physically gifted human of all time doesn't mean they'll be a better soccer player than someone who's got twenty years of experience on them with similar, but lesser physical abilities.

You're going to have to clarify what you're referring to. My issue there is that you're referring to Wally being more powerful than Barry and having access to more of the abilities, but New-52 Wally isn't a Flash and to my knowledge still hasn't appeared anywhere; and pre-52 Barry was better at time/dimensional travel as well as self-molecular control and was the Flash that could undo the Anti-Life Equation and Wally was unable to steal his speed (in fact no speedster could steal his speed).

I mean Wally was never really shown or described as being more powerful or better with the speed force; he simply had over 20 more years of showings while Barry was dead. But the major stuff like Speed, Time/dimensional travel, self-molecular control/phasing, IMP, etc. all either had them at about the same (like the speed and IMP), or Barry was better at (like the phasing).

My point was that pre-52 Barry did demonstrate such abilities and pre-52 Barry would easily solo. I think that's pretty obvious.

However; unlike other heroes, New-52 Barry is the same as Pre-52. New-52 was a direct result of Barry Allen changing the timeline, which means he's the one person who remains the same. In fact he was also in the Speed Force during Crisis so New-52 Barry is also Pre-52 Barry and Pre-Crisis Barry which means all of his feats from those times should apply because he didn't ever actually get a reboot.

There is no New-52 Wally, I'm talking about pre-Flashpoint Wally, where all his feats exist. If you want me to compare New-52 Barry to New-52 Wally, then Barry wins because Wally doesn't exist yet.

The OP is using current versions until stated otherwise, and the most current version of Wally was pre-52. Current Barry cannot use a lot of the abilities you listed. Heck, I'm not even sure we ever got an on panel Infinite Mass Punch from Barry in pre-52, even though Wally said he got the idea from Barry. I don't know as much about Barry as I do Wally, so feel free to correct me on this.

That aside, New Barry isn't the SAME as old Barry. He doesn't have all of his memories and therefore doesn't have all the knowledge and experience he used to, otherwise he wouldn't be having to freaking relearn everything in the New-52 Flash series. You can't assume he can use stuff in this fight that he hasn't relearned how to use. He's the same person without the same knowledge, memories, or skills.

Barry has never even come close to showing the speed and reaction feats Wally could, despite his immunity to speed steal (Which he himself never showed proficiency with compared to Wally). The only thing Barry could do better than Wally was remove the Anti-Life Equation, like you said, but that's hardly relevant unless Tony's got that formula in his back pocket, and phasing, which Wally could still do, but sometimes messes up and blows things up, which is hardly a downside in a fight, lol. Wally's got tons more stuff like creating constructs, better time travel, much faster both in combat and through travel, kinetic control, actual on panel IMPs that have taken out high durability targets, and other stuff I'm probably forgetting that he developed by himself -- things Barry never learned to do or knew how to do. Just because Barry has the potential to do these things as a closer avatar of the Speed Force doesn't mean he CAN. Wally was more creative and more powerful until the reboot where he ceased to exist.

@GreyLantern: GL's charge lasts a pretty long time. I say JL wins.

You guys realize that Captain Atom is one of the top 5 leaguers right? That is Mr. Manhattan x5

@Dredeuced said:

@rpottage said:

@Dredeuced said:

@rpottage said:

@Dredeuced said:

@BigCimmerian said:

@Epicbeast3000 said:

@BigCimmerian: Flash cannot solo thor. Superman and Wonder woman can't beat them all alone. Thor and Superman is one of the best fights alone on comicvine. But justice league wins due to them having 4 powerhouses and avengers only having 1

Bloodlusted Flash can solo Thor, Superman and Wonder Woman combined. He can perform Infinite Mass Punch on Superman before Supes could react. He can turn them into statues before thez would think about moving.

Barry Allen in the New-52 can do none of these things. He's much weaker than the previous Flash, Wally West, who could absolutely solo this Avenger's squad with Morals off. Barry has no high level striking feats, couldn't handle Superman faster than Superman could react (Superman tagged him and sent him flying), and hasn't shown even the slightest bit of speed stealing/lending powers that Wally had. All he's got on his resume is going fast, above average striking, and phasing. Useful powers that could probably beat Tony, Pym, and Cap, but he wouldn't do crap to Thor or Hulk.

The problem there is that it's been well established that Barry is the source of the Speed Force. To quote Max Mercury: "When [Allen runs, he generates] the kinetic wall between the present and the time barrier. It's an electrical energy that exists in every dimension, every universe, and every era. It touches every part of reality. It contains the knowledge of every place and time. The Speed Force is the all-encompassing Flash Fact."

So it means that the powers of the Speed Force will never change, even through a reboot, since they encompass the whole of reality and all universes throughout all times. And since Barry is the very source of the Speed Force he can potentially use any and all of its abilities; so it means that realistically his previous feats from before Flashpoint (and during and after Flashpoint) are still valid. Those include the speed stealing, the moving ten times faster than the speed of light, etc.

Now that of course makes it silly that he hasn't used those powers since the reboot, but it's a comic so it's all about silly.

Doesn't matter. As of now, Barry is still figuring out how to use the Speed Force. He literally just sorted out how to use his Speed Mind without slipping into an eternal stupor. He doesn't know how to use the powers that Wally learned to use, even if he's the source or the one most closely tied to the Speed Force. If he hasn't shown the ability to use it, he can't use it. Wally has, and that's why Wally is much more powerful despite the fact that Barry SHOULD be able to do everything Wally can.

As an analogy, just because someone is the most physically gifted human of all time doesn't mean they'll be a better soccer player than someone who's got twenty years of experience on them with similar, but lesser physical abilities.

You're going to have to clarify what you're referring to. My issue there is that you're referring to Wally being more powerful than Barry and having access to more of the abilities, but New-52 Wally isn't a Flash and to my knowledge still hasn't appeared anywhere; and pre-52 Barry was better at time/dimensional travel as well as self-molecular control and was the Flash that could undo the Anti-Life Equation and Wally was unable to steal his speed (in fact no speedster could steal his speed).

I mean Wally was never really shown or described as being more powerful or better with the speed force; he simply had over 20 more years of showings while Barry was dead. But the major stuff like Speed, Time/dimensional travel, self-molecular control/phasing, IMP, etc. all either had them at about the same (like the speed and IMP), or Barry was better at (like the phasing).

My point was that pre-52 Barry did demonstrate such abilities and pre-52 Barry would easily solo. I think that's pretty obvious.

However; unlike other heroes, New-52 Barry is the same as Pre-52. New-52 was a direct result of Barry Allen changing the timeline, which means he's the one person who remains the same. In fact he was also in the Speed Force during Crisis so New-52 Barry is also Pre-52 Barry and Pre-Crisis Barry which means all of his feats from those times should apply because he didn't ever actually get a reboot.

There is no New-52 Wally, I'm talking about pre-Flashpoint Wally, where all his feats exist. If you want me to compare New-52 Barry to New-52 Wally, then Barry wins because Wally doesn't exist yet.

The OP is using current versions until stated otherwise, and the most current version of Wally was pre-52. Current Barry cannot use a lot of the abilities you listed. Heck, I'm not even sure we ever got an on panel Infinite Mass Punch from Barry in pre-52, even though Wally said he got the idea from Barry. I don't know as much about Barry as I do Wally, so feel free to correct me on this.

That aside, New Barry isn't the SAME as old Barry. He doesn't have all of his memories and therefore doesn't have all the knowledge and experience he used to, otherwise he wouldn't be having to freaking relearn everything in the New-52 Flash series. You can't assume he can use stuff in this fight that he hasn't relearned how to use. He's the same person without the same knowledge, memories, or skills.

Barry has never even come close to showing the speed and reaction feats Wally could, despite his immunity to speed steal (Which he himself never showed proficiency with compared to Wally). The only thing Barry could do better than Wally was remove the Anti-Life Equation, like you said, but that's hardly relevant unless Tony's got that formula in his back pocket, and phasing, which Wally could still do, but sometimes messes up and blows things up, which is hardly a downside in a fight, lol. Wally's got tons more stuff like creating constructs, better time travel, much faster both in combat and through travel, kinetic control, actual on panel IMPs that have taken out high durability targets, and other stuff I'm probably forgetting that he developed by himself -- things Barry never learned to do or knew how to do. Just because Barry has the potential to do these things as a closer avatar of the Speed Force doesn't mean he CAN. Wally was more creative and more powerful until the reboot where he ceased to exist.

No, but that's my point; they are the same person. In Flashpoint Barry was starting to lose some of his memories; but he was stll the same Barry and his getting his powers back stopped the changes from going further. It's the same basic thing in New-52 since he's the cause of the reboot.

But that's not really important anyways, even without all that he's still fast enough to litterally dodge a bullet that has already hit him, as well as open portals through time and space; which means he's still already fast enough to Solo with ease. He's already demonstrated he's a "Femtoseconder" which means he can quite easily do the IMP. Remember the IMP is quite simply hitting someone at that speed, that's all it is. It's not an actual technique like Speed Steal where you need to learn to do it, the IMP is simply punching someone when you're running at near-light speed. So even if you ignore absolutely everything but the new series he still solo's.

As for the Pre-52 Wally v Barry thing; Wally wasn't faster. They both were able to outrun death, and they both reached top speed (breaking the Speed Force Barrier). You can't run faster than that, it's just not possible because you break the Speed Force Barrier and enter it. Barry was the first to reach such speeds and regularily ran 10 times the speed of light, he only slowed down on earth to avoid causing damage. Wally had to learn to reach Barry's natural speed after Barry sacrificed himself. (Wally was stucck at 770 m/h for awhile). Barry was much better at self-molecular control, both could do the IMP, and Barry was better at dimensional travel. Wally was better at Time Travel until Barry mastered it without the Treadmill and Barry's better at dimensional travel because he's better at self-molecular control (he can simply vibrate between dimensions).

Wally simply developed abilities during the 20+ years that Barry was dead; but the fact he can use minor abilities (like the constructs) that are typically useless or completely ignored doesn't make him better. Remember, his inability to control his molecules properly was disasterous when he tried to replicate Barry's destruction of the anti-monitor cannon. (He had to run at an exact speed and vibrate at an exact frequency but Wally ended up causing an explosion instead of an implosion). The only ability of note that Wally used that Barry didn't was the speed steal; but the problem with that one is that it's a two part ability. It's the ability to steal or lend speed, and Barry automatically lent speed for years before Wally. Wally actually relied on Barry to move so fast, which is why after Barry died Wally's speed dropped dramatically. Jay and other speedsters similarily relied on such things (which is why Jay had to meet Barry before he could use the speed force). So it's hard to say what control he had over it since other speedsters rarely used the ability anyways; so that one ability isn't enough to say Wally was better or more powerful.

Speed Steal and Speed Lend aren't the same ability. You have to learn them separately, as Wally did. The Speed Force barrier obviously isn't a thing that matters, as Wally ran around the world in a septosecond in The Human Race. Entering the speed force is an ability they learn to be able to do and to avoid to maintain super high speeds. I still don't ever remember Barry delivering an IMP even if he's presumably capable of it.

Wally was only slower after Barry's death specifically because he was mourning Barry and thought he couldn't replace him. He says as much, on panel, like ten separate times. It had nothing to do with him not having Barry's lent speed. Remember that Barry also had decades to develop his power before he died, so it's not like Wally got "more" time then Barry.

Barry SHOULD have more raw power and ability than Wally, but wally has shown far greater travel speed and combat speed feats (outrunning the big bang, saving half a million people in 10 picoseconds, scanning half a million in 1 picosecond, resetting every radio on earth in septsecond times). I don't get why you think Barry should be as or more powerful than Wally was -- Barry never developed or used the powers Wally could because Wally was the main Flash for most of post crisis. That's just how it is. Until Barry shows he can remember how to use all of these abilities in New-52, New-52 doesn't have these abilities. That's how feats work, dude. Barry's capable of LOTS of things, he just doesn't know how to do them yet.

This is yet again proof that 90% of all JLA vs Avengers battles are unbalanced. I can barely remember any of the fair ones. Fact is, the JLA always had more heavy hitters.

Flash, Superman, and Wonder Woman could solo.

@Wardemon32 said:

You guys realize that Captain Atom is one of the top 5 leaguers right? That is Mr. Manhattan x5

Among the most powerful, yes. But I agree that the ones the OP used are the "core" team for each. Sort of.

@tomlikesfries said:

The League stomps.

@Epicbeast3000 said:

@BigCimmerian: Wow, I did not know that flash was that powerful. What is his power level darkseid lvl or skyfather lvl???

I doubt he is on skyfather level, he's probably above Silver Surfer and around Darkseid's level.

@czarny_samael666 said:

Out of charcatrer - Flash solos. In character: Wonder Woman vs. Thor will be a good one. Batman and Cap are non factors. Pretty much the same with Pym. Superman > Hulk Hal > Iron Man And just in case, Flash takes out Pym and Batman. JLA wins after very easy battle. Welcome in CV. We all have made mistakes, this battle is too one-sided. Before You will make another battle, try to make some research in battle forum about characters You want to use.

Yeah, this sums it up pretty damn well.

BTW I am now thinking who actually should be in Avenger Top 5...
For now, I see these people, out of wizards (Strange, Druid, Wanda):
Thor, Quasar, Pulsar and Void-Sentry + currently Cap Universe.
Next after them? Hmmm... Jack of Hearts, Binary? Was Nova ever a member of Avengers? And currently Hyperion will probably come to one of top guns too.
And there are people with different kind of powers like Moondragon and Sersi. 
 
@JediXMan said:

@Wardemon32 said:

You guys realize that Captain Atom is one of the top 5 leaguers right? That is Mr. Manhattan x5

Among the most powerful, yes. But I agree that the ones the OP used are the "core" team for each. Sort of.

@guttridgeb: Your avatar...... it's just awesome.

@Batman242: Thanks :)

@guttridgeb: What is it exactly? I was thinking it was Supes in Thor's armor, but that can't be.... I see an 'S' on the chest, so I guess it is Supes

@Batman242: It's Superman from Superman #0, I don't think the reasons for the colour change have been revealed yet - he had time traveled back to Krypton at the time :)

@guttridgeb: That's an awesome suit. The New 52 Superman looks awesome. I hope he wears it more often or something.