Karness Muur vs. Darth Vader (A New Hope)

vs.

Rules:

Pre-Mortem Karness Muur

Legends-Only Darth Vader

Round 1: Lightsabers

Round 2: Force

Round 3: All-Out

Call-Outs:

Vader wins, I think. He IMHO is equally powerful as Krayt, so the fact that Muur managed to stalemate a hindered and Pre-Prime Krayt is honestly not that impressive, and other than that, I don't see how an absolutely pathetically weak version of Vader considering him as his master, is going to elevate him above Vader, given that characters throughout Star Wars have made ridiculous and mind-numbing claims and comparisons. It will be a proper fight no doubt, but Vader comes out on top.

Anyone else care to weigh in?

Good fight. Vader's had nineteen years of growth since Dark Times: Vector, which was when that infamous comparison between Muur and Vader was made. I wouldn't be surprise if Muur was still more powerful than Vader at this point, but it's hard to definitively argue. Muur's blatant superiority to a somewhat healed Vong Krayt, whilst in a body that's implied to not do his full power justice, might mean that he's more powerful than ANH Vader in his living prime.

Curious as to what people can bring up for Vader in terms of lightsaber skill at this point. I'll probably back Muur in Force for now, due to a more diverse range of powers and things like Dark Transfer.

Probably Vader. Should be an awesome fight, though.

@zapan871 Here might be a good place to have our discussion on Muur v Vader.

@shootingnova: Ah, yes, but I think Vader wins via his own powerscaling from both Dooku and Starkiller, as well as potential and knowledge, and I'd avoid discussing that 19 Bby instance, because it's a bit too ambiguous. Muur's Krayt accolade is a much more quantifiable starting point.

Btw, Muur claimed that Morne was a suitable host, though you could argue he was still a bit hindered because Celeste was resisting his possession during the Krayt fight. Still, I'd argue Krayt's hindrance was more substantial.

It should be a good fight, though.

@zapan871:

Ah, yes, but I think Vader wins via his own powerscaling from both Dooku and Starkiller,

How does scaling off Dooku or Starkiller amount to being stronger than Muur? And certainly, Muur can counter through scaling off Vong Krayt and thus all One Sith.

as well as potential

People love to cite Maul's potential being in excess of Talzin's, yet he was an afterthought in Sidious v Talzin in Son of Dathomir #4. Potential only matters for how you will grow, not so much in fights. Unless you're pre-suit Anakin Skywalker.

and knowledge

What superior knowledge is coming into play here?

and I'd avoid discussing that 19 Bby instance, because it's a bit too ambiguous.

Don't think there's anything ambiguous about it in of itself, just ambiguous as to how useful it'd be when comparing ANH Vader, which is almost 20 years after the fact.

Muur's Krayt accolade is a much more quantifiable starting point.

For the sake of this battle, definitely.

Btw, Muur claimed that Morne was a suitable host

Morne was a satisfactory host in some ways, but certainly not ideal. Muur wanted to take control of stronger hosts (Vader, Luke, Krayt, etc.) every single time it was possible, and for good reason - Celeste could never do his full power justice.

though you could argue he was still a bit hindered because Celeste was resisting his possession during the Krayt fight. Still, I'd argue Krayt's hindrance was more substantial.

Not only was Celeste fighting back against Muur's possession, but he was also controlling the swarms of Rakghouls during the battle on Had Abbadon. Then there's the implication that he could never fully invoke his powers in Celeste's body anyway. I'd imagine that collectively, that'd amount to more of an obstruction than Krayt's condition, which was partially healed by the time anyway.

It should be a good fight, though.

Indeed.

@shootingnova:

How does scaling off Dooku or Starkiller amount to being stronger than Muur? And certainly, Muur can counter through scaling off Vong Krayt and thus all lesser Sith.

Perhaps because Dooku has comparable powerscaling to Krayt all things considered, and Starkiller has superior feats (powerscaling included). Granted, Wredd obviously isn't the most powerful of Krayt's minions, but K'kruhk and Aotc Anakin (whose dreadnaught feat impressed me more than Wredd's btw) are also canonically nowhere near the people Dooku stomped, i.e. Ventress, and Vader is above Tyranus and Starkiller by Anh, which should put him at least on par with a healthier Vong Krayt, if not above.

People love to cite Maul's potential being in excess of Talzin's, yet he was an afterthought in Sidious v Talzin in Son of Dathomir #4.

But potential dictates one's level of power growth as well, hence why Anakin grew drastically in just one year or so, and if Vader has close potential to Sidious, who grew significantly in the 6 years after Rotj, then the same should apply to him, albeit likely to somewhat of a lesser extent. Of course Vader isn't Anakin, not even close, but you get the picture.

Don't think there's anything ambiguous about it in of itself, just ambiguous as to how useful it'd be when comparing ANH Vader, which is almost 20 years after the fact.

It's ambiguous because Vader was unsure, given that he was also envisioning a future where Muur didn't become his master. Vader wasn't blinded by arrogance in that instance, and when someone has much greater power than you, you shouldn't have such doubts. But whatever, I'd rather concentrate on Krayt.

What superior knowledge is coming into play here?

I'm not talking about superior knowledge to Muur, I'm simply saying that his knowledge would aid his growth, thus adding to his talent. Regardless, that could be argued, by implication and considering the knowledge that comically inferior darksiders had. Heck, even Ventress learned advanced sorcery in a few months in spite of just having Dark Jedi training for less than three years, and she is a scrub in everything regarding the Force next to Vader, who also had an immense amount of resources at his disposal, and a better master.

Granted he wouldn't succeed/be allowed to study all of that, but considering Palpatine's insane superiority over any Sith not named Vitiate in that area, this shouldn't be a problem for Vader.

To clarify, I'm not saying he is definitely above Muur in this area right now, just that it's not unbelievable.

Muur was a satisfactory host in some ways, but certainly not ideal. Muur wanted to take control of stronger hosts (Vader, Luke, Krayt, etc.) every single time it was possible, and for good reason - Celeste could never do his full power justice.

Ok, you'd better post the source where he says this.

Btw, of course Morne wouldn't be satisfactory compared to the people you mentioned, but that's not because Muur wouldn't be as strong as he was in life, otherwise if he couldn't wield his full power within her, why choose her?

I could understand if he was desperate, and having no other choice, but IIRC he wasn't. He just wanted to increase his power further, which is not surprising, because that's run-of-the-mill for a Sith.

If Muur possessed those people, chances are he would be much more powerful than he was in life. Especially if the people in question are named Skywalker. And indeed they are much more powerful than Morne.

Not only was Celeste fighting back against Muur's possession, but he was also controlling the swarms of Rakghouls during the battle on Had Abbadon. I'd imagine that collectively, that'd amount to more of an obstruction than Krayt's condition, which was partially healed by the time anyway.

To my memory, the Rakghouls were eliminated by the time the Force battle began. Btw, Muur's healing was too short to make any difference, which would probably only be slight, especially when Cade required more time to actually heal his friends, who were only in the initial stages of the Vong sickness. Cade, while less masterful and obviously powerful, is still more talented than Muur in that area, to the point that Luke said he was unparalleled by anyone he ever met. And that was referring to a less powerful, untrained Cade.

@zapan871:

Perhaps because Dooku has comparable powerscaling to Krayt all things considered, and Starkiller has superior feats (powerscaling included). Granted, Wredd obviously isn't the most powerful of Krayt's minions, but K'kruhk and Aotc Anakin (whose dreadnaught feat impressed me more than Wredd's btw) are also canonically nowhere near the people Dooku stomped, i.e. Ventress, and Vader is above Tyranus and Starkiller by Anh, which should put him at least on par with a healthier Vong Krayt, if not above.

Wredd probably isn't close to Wyyrlok, either, though, let alone Krayt. I envision Dooku along the lines of Wyyrlok more than Krayt. So I could imagine Vader being on par with Vong Krayt, but that would still leave Muur ahead of him.

When do you think Vader surpassed Tyranus?

But potential dictates one's level of power growth as well, hence why Anakin grew drastically in just one year or so, and if Vader has close potential to Sidious, who grew significantly in the 6 years after Rotj, then the same should apply to him, albeit likely to somewhat of a lesser extent. Of course Vader isn't Anakin, not even close, but you get the picture.

Vader's growth isn't comparable to Anakin's, as you yourself said. Just how much do you imagine he improved between RotS and ANH?

It's ambiguous because Vader was unsure, given that he was also envisioning a future where Muur didn't become his master. Vader wasn't blinded by arrogance in that instance, and when someone has much greater power than you, you shouldn't have such doubts. But whatever, I'd rather concentrate on Krayt.

It's not just about Muur becoming Vader's master, but overthrowing Sidious. Although one could question how much Vader knew of Sidious' true power at that point.

I'm not talking about superior knowledge to Muur, I'm simply saying that his knowledge would aid his growth, thus adding to his talent. Regardless, that could be argued, by implication and considering the knowledge that comically inferior darksiders had. Heck, even Ventress learned advanced sorcery in a few months in spite of just having Dark Jedi training for less than three years, and she is a scrub in everything regarding the Force next to Vader, who also had an immense amount of resources at his disposal, and a better master.

That would operate under the notion that all Dark Side adepts compare to the Original Dark Lords, which I don't agree with, especially because the vast majority of the powers learned by the Ancient Sith weren't necessarily combat-applicable. Nevertheless, Muur knew various techniques unknown to his contemporaries, including the art of dark side healing, which is very rare.

Granted he wouldn't succeed/be allowed to study all of that, but considering Palpatine's insane superiority over any Sith not named Vitiate in that area, this shouldn't be a problem for Vader.

That depends on the disparity between Palpatine and Vader in respect to knowledge.

To clarify, I'm not saying he is definitely above Muur in this area right now, just that it's not unbelievable.

That depends. I'm not too sure I see ANH Vader being more knowledgeable.

Ok, you'd better post the source where he says this.

The entire arc with Luke and Leia, where he tells both Luke and Celeste that he'll finally be free and able to walk the galaxy in living form again. He outright tells Luke that his hope is that "I may one day walk in power throughout this galaxy once again".

He isn't searching for hosts to possess and wield power through them - he's searching for a living form. Which is why in his vision of the future, you see both Muur and Luke standing together in the flesh, and it's captioned as "power that could set him free".

Also, in Legacy, he claims:

"It is a Sith I desire! One rife with the power of the dark side!"

Presumably, he only wanted Luke and Leia because of how powerful and untamed they were in the Force, so they're exceptions, not the rule.

Btw, of course Morne wouldn't be satisfactory compared to the people you mentioned, but that's not because Muur wouldn't be as strong as he was in life, otherwise if he couldn't wield his full power within her, why choose her?

He never chose her. He went for Zayne first, then Celeste took the Talisman from him and put it on herself. He tried to get Vader under his spell, but Celeste denied him Vader. He then tried to take over Luke and Leia, but Celeste denied him yet again. He never once chose Celeste, she just denied him his other options.

I could understand if he was desperate, and having no other choice, but IIRC he wasn't. He just wanted to increase his power further, which is not surprising, because that's run-of-the-mill for a Sith.

It's only ever said that he'll be free, not that he'll grow more powerful. The entire point is that he seeks freedom and a return to his living self, as the arc with Luke and Leia clearly show.

If Muur possessed those people, chances are he would be much more powerful than he was in life. Especially if the people in question are named Skywalker. And indeed they are much more powerful than Morne.

There's no basis for this whatsoever. In fact, it's all about Muur regaining his living form and returning to the power he once wielded, which, again, is shown in the Luke and Leia arc. It's never implied that he'd grow more powerful.

To my memory, the Rakghouls were eliminated by the time the Force battle began.

Pretty sure some still existed, but even if not, Muur contesting with Celeste for control of the body is a significant obstruction to his powers.

Btw, Muur's healing was too short to make any difference, which would probably only be slight, especially when Cade required more time to actually heal his friends, who were only in the initial stages of the Vong sickness.

Cade healed himself and Deliah pretty quickly, and we don't know how long Muur's healing of Krayt lasted.

Cade, while less masterful and obviously powerful, is still more talented than Muur in that area, to the point that Luke said he was unparalleled by anyone he ever met. And that was referring to a less powerful, untrained Cade.

Luke never saw Muur using Dark Transfer, lol.

@shootingnova: Sorry for the delay, Nova.

Wredd probably isn't close to Wyyrlok, either, though, let alone Krayt. I envision Dooku along the lines of Wyyrlok more than Krayt. So I could imagine Vader being on par with Vong Krayt, but that would still leave Muur ahead of him.

In overall power? Not sure. Wyyrlok only has impressive Tp and possibly lightning (his best feat occurred on a potent nexus, and months after Krayt's death), and he seemed to give at least some trouble to Krayt Reborn, whom if accolades are to be taken at face value, should be comically above him. Though we know Wyyrlok gained a number of Sith scrolls from Andeddu's fortress, so it's possible he improved.

Oh, one thing: you seem to think that Dooku moved a 215 meter long ship on Korriban. May I ask how did you come to that conclusion? Granted, the ships are said to be giant, but other than that, I see no reliable indication of their size.

When do you think Vader surpassed Tyranus?

By Tfu.

Vader's growth isn't comparable to Anakin's, as you yourself said. Just how much do you imagine he improved between RotS and ANH?

Well since you already know my stance on potential, I'll give you something new (well, somewhat), and probably more substantiated.

Let's start with one of 19/18 Bby Vader's accolades: him being above Mace.

This was stated by two people: Jax Pavan (a former, powerful Jedi Knight who was promoted three months before the end of the war and likely sensed Mace) and Nick Rostu (indirectly).

The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor. It had pulsed from Vastor in waves of fury, blasted like an open furnace. In Vader, it was-contained. Pent.

Waiting.

-- Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight

Someone extremely strong in the Force—stronger than he’d ever encountered before. It could mean only one thing:

Darth Vader was coming.

-- Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight

Now, Rostu is a weak Force user, but he seems to know Kar Vastor well, and the latter should be on Mace's level. However, since Nick is weak, his judgement can be called into question, but even then, I doubt it would be so inaccurate that Vader would go from being far more powerful than Vastor to not being at least comparable by this time.

So, he compares to Mace in power, which means he is above Shaak Ti, but probably not by much.

Though this is likely problematic, because then we'd have to assume Dooku is at least pretty noticeably above Mace, since I doubt Vader reached him until much later.

Why is this relevant? Because we know that Anh Vader is above his Rots incarnation, who was not vastly, but immensely more powerful than Shaak Ti:

Shaak Ti was at the Jedi Temple when Vader attacked, and narrowly escaped death at the hands of the immensely more powerful Sith Lord.

-- The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection 51

Then grew even more powerful:

Darth Vader stood on the command bridge of the Mustafar control center, hand of durasteel clasping hand of flesh behind him, and gazed up through the transparisteel view wall at the galaxy he would one day rule.

He paid no attention to the litter of corpses around his feet.

He could feel his power growing, indeed. He had the measure of his “Master” already; not long after Palpatine shared the secret of Darth Plagueis’s discovery, their relationship would undergo a sudden … transformation.

-- Revenge Of The Sith

Note that this is happened after he killed the Separatists, i.e. Mustafar Vader is above Ti by an even greater amount.

The conclusion? Vader went from just being above Ti to being (possibly noticeably) more than immensely above her, which points to a massive level of growth. Clearly, his talent is still incredible, which shouldn't be surprising given his hype.

This is also impressive, because Ti is far above Kota, who detached a massive command center from a facility, and deflected pre prime Galen's lightning with ease. And Kazdan Paratus, who controlled hundreds or thousands of Junk golems, and IIRC, created a replica of the Jedi temple via Tk. Though in fairness we have no idea whether Ti grew, and how much.

It's not just about Muur becoming Vader's master, but overthrowing Sidious. Although one could question how much Vader knew of Sidious' true power at that point.

Not really relevant. Dooku said the same about Savage, in spite of the fact that Sidious could stomp him. And Dooku knows Sidious much better than 19 Bby Vader. Granted, Savage was the apprentice, but still, he is below this version of Vader.

That would operate under the notion that all Dark Side adepts compare to the Original Dark Lords, which I don't agree with, especially because the vast majority of the powers learned by the Ancient Sith weren't necessarily combat-applicable. Nevertheless, Muur knew various techniques unknown to his contemporaries, including the art of dark side healing, which is very rare.

If I actually supported that notion, I would be arguing Vader is definitely far above the Exiles, Kun, Nadd, etc., but of course I don't. What I'm saying is that those adepts possess part of the Ancient Sith's knowledge, as well as some high level secrets of their own, and Vader should logically be vastly above them. In fact, Ventress herself viewed the knowledge she had under Dooku as "lesser arts", in spite of knowing at least one advanced sorcery spell. And she had nowhere near the training of Vader. This clearly points to a massive difference between a Rot Sith, and a mere adept of dark Jedi.

I'm saying Vader is at least comparable, especially when the Empire had resources that include knowledge from the Jedi temple and other Force traditions, as well as the Banite archives. Two of these are massive repositories of knowledge the Ancient Sith never had, though in fairness a number of secrets were also lost over the millennia. However, I doubt these losses would be enough to compensate for what was gained.

Obviously, since Palpatine would want to keep Vader from surpassing him (well, not so unquestionable, but let's pretend it's true), he wouldn't give everything to Vader, but the latter could have 70% and still be subservient. Of course this is an absolutely random number, but you get the picture.

That depends on the disparity between Palpatine and Vader in respect to knowledge.

Unfortunately, we don't know for sure, but it would likely be vast. 23 years are probably not enough to study such a massive amount of resources.

That depends. I'm not too sure I see ANH Vader being more knowledgeable.

Alright.

The entire arc with Luke and Leia, where he tells both Luke and Celeste that he'll finally be free and able to walk the galaxy in living form again.

He outright tells Luke that his hope is that "I may one day walk in power throughout this galaxy once again".He isn't searching for hosts to possess and wield power through them - he's searching for a living form. Which is why in his vision of the future, you see both Muur and Luke standing together in the flesh, and it's captioned as "power that could set him free".

Perhaps because as a spirit, he can't go wherever he wants without aid, is dependent on external sources, and even as a free spirit, he would only be able to go where there is a nexus, and only provided he is familiar with it, i.e. he can only affect a small fraction of the galaxy. These advantages are independent on whether he is weaker, equal or stronger than his living form in power. Palpatine wasn't weaker as a spirit, and he still created clones to act as his hosts. Granted, he is far above Muur, but the same principle applies here.

Simple question: assuming you're even stronger as a ghost, what would you prefer? Having greater power, but at the cost of most of your freedom? Or having less power, while being able to use it whenever and wherever you want? I'd have no doubt. And of course it would be the same even if we assume Muur is equal or minimally inferior to his mortal self.

Also, in Legacy, he claims:

"It is a Sith I desire! One rife with the power of the dark side!"

Presumably, he only wanted Luke and Leia because of how powerful and untamed they were in the Force, so they're exceptions, not the rule.

???

He never chose her. He went for Zayne first, then Celeste took the Talisman from him and put it on herself. He tried to get Vader under his spell, but Celeste denied him Vader. He then tried to take over Luke and Leia, but Celeste denied him yet again. He never once chose Celeste, she just denied him his other options.

Ah, ok, but she was still suitable for him. The question would be, suitable for what? Power, or something else? I don't see many options here.

It's only ever said that he'll be free, not that he'll grow more powerful. The entire point is that he seeks freedom and a return to his living self, as the arc with Luke and Leia clearly show.

As above, being free involves advantages that do not depend on Force power. Like, you know, having the opportunity to actually rule the galaxy yourself, something you can't do as a mere ghost.

Pretty sure some still existed, but even if not, Muur contesting with Celeste for control of the body is a significant obstruction to his powers.

How? When he regained control, he didn't seem to struggle at all. On the other hand, Morne seemed more strained. And in the Force battle, Muur had complete control of Celeste's body, IIRC.

Cade healed himself and Deliah pretty quickly, and we don't know how long Muur's healing of Krayt lasted.

Last I recall, he did take several pages to heal his friends. Muur's healing was interrupted after a few panels, which should equate to a short time, though comic time is difficult to determine. Regardless, Krayt's sickness is more serious than that, having been forced to wear that armor for over a century, so I'm not convinced he would have been very close to his normal self, given that he was running out of time.

Luke never saw Muur using Dark Transfer, lol.

True. Still Krayt seemed to view Muur and Cade as more or less equal in that area, given that, in case the former refused, he mused he would have to use Skywalker's talent, meaning the latter could replace Muur. So I'd say they should be on the same level, with Cade having more talent, and Muur having more knowledge.

@zapan871:

In overall power? Not sure. Wyyrlok only has impressive Tp and possibly lightning (his best feat occurred on a potent nexus, and months after Krayt's death), and he seemed to give at least some trouble to Krayt Reborn, whom if accolades are to be taken at face value, should be comically above him. Though we know Wyyrlok gained a number of Sith scrolls from Andeddu's fortress, so it's possible he improved.

Pretty sure every Sith Lord becomes more powerful upon their ascension to the status of ruling Dark Lord. Nevertheless, Wredd only got as high up in the Sith ranks (which wasn't very high, even in the ruined One Sith Order with Nihl at the top) through manipulation, rather than sheer strength. He wouldn't compare to Wyyrlok, IMO.

Oh, one thing: you seem to think that Dooku moved a 215 meter long ship on Korriban. May I ask how did you come to that conclusion? Granted, the ships are said to be giant, but other than that, I see no reliable indication of their size.

I don't think any other ancient cruisers existed on Korriban (at least, as of 2004) than the Derriphan-class battleships, which were 215m long.

By Tfu.

Ah. The TFU series only takes place one to two years before ANH, which is this version of Vader. And I imagine Muur well exceeding Dooku in the Force.

Why is this relevant? Because we know that Anh Vader is above his Rots incarnation who was not vastly, but immensely more powerful than Shaak Ti:

In your respect thread, there are three Legends sources that depict Vader as being more powerful than Anakin. However, the RotJ novel quote is outdated and contradicted by the RotS novel quote (nor does it apply to ANH Vader), and the quote in the ANH novel is also outdated, not to mention Ben Kenobi referring to Vader's powers "maturing" could easily be Force mastery as opposed to power. That leaves the Beware the Sith quote, which is the most concrete and recent of the quotes, but does it take precedence over this?

And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow. In the end, you do not even want to.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

The implication there being that suited Vader was vastly less powerful than his RotS incarnation. Could he make it up in nineteen years? Quite possibly, but it doesn't seem like there would be much of a disparity by then.

The conclusion? Vader went from just being above Ti to being (possibly noticeably) more than immensely above her, which points to a massive level of growth. Clearly, his talent is still incredible, which shouldn't be surprising given his hype.

This is also impressive, because Ti is far above Kota, who detached a massive command center from a facility, and deflected pre prime Galen's lightning with ease. And Kazdan Paratus, who controlled hundreds or thousands of Junk golems, and IIRC, created a replica of the Jedi temple via Tk. Though in fairness we have no idea whether Ti grew, and how much.

Ti seems to have grown, definitely. No idea by how much, though.

Not really relevant. Dooku said the same about Savage, in spite of the fact that Sidious could stomp him. And Dooku knows Sidious much better than 19 Bby Vader. Granted, Savage was the apprentice, but still, he is below this version of Vader.

Dooku was talking about Savage's potential, lol. He was never implying that he could have taken Savage in that state and overthrown Sidious. Whereas Vader was contemplating overthrowing Sidious with the Muur Talisman then and there.

If I actually supported that notion, I would be arguing Vader is definitely far above the Exiles, Kun, Nadd, etc., but of course I don't. What I'm saying is that those adepts possess part of the Ancient Sith's knowledge, as well as some high level secrets of their own, and Vader should logically be vastly above them. In fact, Ventress herself viewed the knowledge she had under Dooku as "lesser arts", in spite of knowing at least one advanced sorcery spell. And she had nowhere near the training of Vader. This clearly points to a massive difference between a Rot Sith, and a mere adept of dark Jedi. I'm saying Vader is at least comparable, especially when the Empire had resources that include knowledge from the Jedi temple and other Force traditions, as well as the Banite archives. Two of these are massive repositories of knowledge the Ancient Sith never had, though in fairness a number of secrets were also lost over the millennia. However, I doubt these losses would be enough to compensate for what was gained.

That depends on what was gained. There was some knowledge of the Ancient Sith that was said to have been lost forever. But fair enough on the rest of it.

Simple question: assuming you're even stronger as a ghost, what would you prefer? Having greater power, but at the cost of most of your freedom? Or having less power, while being able to use it whenever and wherever you want? I'd have no doubt. And of course it would be the same even if we assume Muur is equal or minimally inferior to his mortal self.

Freedom obviously takes precedence, but it doesn't preclude Muur from being less powerful as a spirit all the same.

???

As I said, Muur wanted a Sith who was rife in the power of the dark side as his body, where Celeste obviously didn't fit the bill. Luke and Leia were exceptions since they were just so strong.

Ah, ok, but she was still suitable for him. The question would be, suitable for what? Power, or something else? I don't see many options here.

Pretty sure he just means suitable for him to work with. Not ideal, as I said.

As above, being free involves advantages that do not depend on Force power. Like, you know, having the opportunity to actually rule the galaxy yourself, something you can't do as a mere ghost.

Perhaps. But that brings up another point - "a mere ghost", as you put it, is always depicted as weaker than their living selves - Nadd, Ragnos, Kun, etc. In fact, Nadd, who could roam the galaxy (or at least, places strong in the dark side), still wanted a return to living in the flesh.

How? When he regained control, he didn't seem to struggle at all. On the other hand, Morne seemed more strained. And in the Force battle, Muur had complete control of Celeste's body, IIRC.

Muur never "appears" to struggle when he takes control, but as seen by the fact that Celeste wrestles it back every time, she was obviously contesting with him the entire time. She wasn't just sitting complacently whilst Muur took over her body, and then just asked for it back, lol.

Last I recall, he did take several pages to heal his friends. Muur's healing was interrupted after a few panels, which should equate to a short time, though comic time is difficult to determine. Regardless, Krayt's sickness is more serious than that, having been forced to wear that armor for over a century, so I'm not convinced he would have been very close to his normal self, given that he was running out of time.

He healed Deliah in a couple of panels, IIRC. And Muur mastered the technique over his lifetime, as opposed to Cade using it instinctively, so Muur was likely much more masterful in its use.

True. Still Krayt seemed to view Muur and Cade as more or less equal in that area, given that, in case the former refused, he mused he would have to use Skywalker's talent, meaning the latter could replace Muur. So I'd say they should be on the same level, with Cade having more talent, and Muur having more knowledge.

No, that's just because they were using the same technique. Krayt could learn from either of them using the technique on him. Besides, if anything, Muur would have had more mastery, since Cade was all instinctive ability, whereas Muur was the one who mastered it over a lifetime.

I would be inclined to side with Vader, but only slightly and only after a long and grueling fight.

@shootingnova:

Pretty sure every Sith Lord becomes more powerful upon their ascension to the status of ruling Dark Lord. Nevertheless, Wredd only got as high up in the Sith ranks (which wasn't very high, even in the ruined One Sith Order with Nihl at the top) through manipulation, rather than sheer strength. He wouldn't compare to Wyyrlok, IMO.

Yeah, Wredd is likely at least noticeably below Wyyrlok. And what was his rank? Btw, Wyyrlok never stomped Wredd, and Vong Krayt never stomped Wyyrlok. On the other hand, Dooku stomped Ventress in a way that is arguably superior to a normal ragdoll, and we know for certain that Asaji can dominate that version of Anakin.

I don't think any other ancient cruisers existed on Korriban (at least, as of 2004) than the Derriphan-class battleships, which were 215m long.

Mmm, I heard there is some controversy on the meaning of cruiser. In fact, I recall that the word is used for small vehicles as well in that novel.

Ah. The TFU series only takes place one to two years before ANH, which is this version of Vader. And I imagine Muur well exceeding Dooku in the Force.

Three years actually.

I honestly don't. Muur may be noticeably more powerful, but considering Dooku's powerscaling and feats, putting Muur more well ahead of him seems a stretch. Especially if Dooku actually easily hurled a 215 meter long ship + other huge vehicles, which is honestly far above what the One Sith minions have shown, and that was pre prime as well, i.e. 23 Bby. Tfu Vader is above prime Dooku, who, while old, should have grown noticeably in the span of four years, given his own talent and the fact that we know he increased his knowledge via holocrons like Andeddu's.

But this also depends a lot on how you rank Dooku compared to Mace in power, given that Vader was compared to the latter as of 18 Bby. Assuming they're equals, Vader might very well have surpassed Tyranus long before Tfu, if we take this route.

As for Lightning, Vader gets scaling from Galen, who is implied to be below the clone, and Marek was powerful enough to one shot At-Ats, which are invulnerable to all but the most powerful turbolasers. And this happened on neutral ground, not on a potent nexus, unlike Wyyrlok's best feat.

And I'm being generous enough to ignore Vader outright dominating the clone multiple times, with the game guide and Witwer's assessment (which is supported by Haden Blackman himself, so it's not a random voice actor saying his opinion) validating this. Though in fairness, Starkiller was tired after obliterating his clones, but Vader was also evidently toying with him, so it cancels out.

In your respect thread, there are three Legends sources that depict Vader as being more powerful than Anakin. However, the RotJ novel quote is outdated and contradicted by the RotS novel quote (nor does it apply to ANH Vader), and the quote in the ANH novel is also outdated, not to mention Ben Kenobi referring to Vader's powers "maturing" could easily be Force mastery as opposed to power. That leaves the Beware the Sith quote, which is the most concrete and recent of the quotes, but does it take precedence over this?

Concerning Anh, maturing is simply another way to say Vader's power grew, thus I don't see anything pointing to Force mastery, which increases power, yes, but still isn't mentioned.

Btw, these quotes might not be applied to Anakin, but to Rots Vader? Yeah, I think so (assuming he was weakened of course). 19 years of growth are more than enough to advance that much, especially if we believe that someone like Obi-Wan grew a lot in 6 months via fighting. Vader did that, and more.

You should also consider that post Mustafar Vader didn't even begin fully tapping into the power of the dark side until the very end of RODV, i.e. two months later, when his real training began. In fact, he was arguably in an even shittier emotional state than his suitless incarnation by that time, so it's not surprising he would say this, given that he is self pitying all the time.

I admit I'm a bit undecided tho, because Anakin has a lot of stuff, so I'm not sure all of that should be disregarded. However, I think it would be wrong to dismiss Vader's newer evidence as well. All in all, It's not too easy for me to say.

Still, Starkiller was also stated by Blackman to be up there with the top tiers, and he also had the potential to be the most powerful Force user, i.e. Anakin 2.0, on top of having better training than Skywalker, yet he isn't above Vader, as sources clarified. Thus, I'm not entirely convinced Anakin should be better, because authorial intent is on Vader and SK's side as well.

Dooku was talking about Savage's potential, lol. He was never implying that he could have taken Savage in that state and overthrown Sidious. Whereas Vader was contemplating overthrowing Sidious with the Muur Talisman then and there.

Yes, but he never thought Savage would ever be above him. Regardless, the fact remains that, according to the Count, him and a Maul level Force user (i.e. below even 19 Bby Vader probably) would be enough to beat Sidious, and his opinion holds more weight than this Vader's. This is also without mentioning that they didn't have a talisman enhancing their power even further, and probably by a noticeable amount too, if we take into account it is one of the most potent artifacts of the OR era. And no, Vader didn't say anything about when he would try to kill Sidious.

Oh, and Ventress also thought she could take Dooku (albeit a hindered one), and with two relatively fodder people aiding her on top of that, i.e. apparently she thought two Nightsisters would compensate for the difference in power, even though we know Tyranus can stomp her, so you might as well argue those two are vastly above Asaji, to the point that she wouldn't surpass them after decades of training. That still doesn't mean it's true (in fact it isn't), and she probably knows Dooku better than this Vader knows Sidious.

Honestly, I'd suggest sticking to Krayt's powerscaling.

That depends on what was gained. There was some knowledge of the Ancient Sith that was said to have been lost forever. But fair enough on the rest of it.

Well, the Banite Sith gathered knowledge for a millennia, though there was that Gravid setback, and the Blackguard did the same with other Force traditions as well. Also, IIRC, in Pod it was stated that the Jedi sought Sith knowledge for thousands of years, though they apparently destroyed part of it. Then there is also the fact that Sidious had Inquisitors like Jerec who spent decades seeking ancient knowledge, though they might have tried to keep it for themselves.

But whatever, I admit there is an amount of uncertainty here.

As I said, Muur wanted a Sith who was rife in the power of the dark side as his body, where Celeste obviously didn't fit the bill. Luke and Leia were exceptions since they were just so strong.

I still don't get how you came to this conclusion, tho. Btw what about this?

Muur seems to think that after taking Krayt's body, both would have each other's power, thus combining them, and consequently, becoming more powerful. Granted, you could argue he wasn't being honest, but I see no reason to. Thus, I'd argue this would apply to Morne as well, but to a lesser extent.

Pretty sure he just means suitable for him to work with. Not ideal, as I said.

That still doesn't say anything compared to his living self. Regardless, I can't imagine him being weaker by a lot, even if that was the case. The cons of being a spirit are pretty huge, even if (note the "if") we assumed a ghost would be far above his living self. And as we both know, part of the Sith's goals is to be free of limitations.

Perhaps. But that brings up another point - "a mere ghost", as you put it, is always depicted as weaker than their living selves - Nadd, Ragnos, Kun, etc. In fact, Nadd, who could roam the galaxy (or at least, places strong in the dark side), still wanted a return to living in the flesh.

Where was it said that those Sith are weaker? I know about Kun, (who was trapped on Yavin btw, so he has an even bigger disadvantage than other ghosts) but the others? Btw, Ragnos' resurrection was incomplete, IIRC, and Palpatine did the same thing, like possessing his Hand, yet his spirit wasn't weaker.

Muur never "appears" to struggle when he takes control, but as seen by the fact that Celeste wrestles it back every time, she was obviously contesting with him the entire time. She wasn't just sitting complacently whilst Muur took over her body, and then just asked for it back, lol.

No, but during the Force battle Muur was clearly stronger, and in fact by the time of Legacy he was beginning to usurp Morne's control.

He healed Deliah in a couple of panels, IIRC. And Muur mastered the technique over his lifetime, as opposed to Cade using it instinctively, so Muur was likely much more masterful in its use.

Nah, I just checked it out, it took two pages, and those two were in a far less serious condition than Krayt. Granted they were dying, but so was Krayt, and they weren't infected by the Vong's coral seeds for over a century.

Gallery

On the other hand, Muur was interrupted after a few panels.

No, that's just because they were using the same technique. Krayt could learn from either of them using the technique on him. Besides, if anything, Muur would have had more mastery, since Cade was all instinctive ability, whereas Muur was the one who mastered it over a lifetime.

Mmm, where was it stated Muur mastered it over a lifetime? Regardless, being even much more masterful than someone doesn't always and automatically make you better than that person in a certain area. Not when that other person is extremely talented.

@zapan871: I'll respond later.

If an out-of-practice Muur was at all comparable to post-ROTS Sidious, then he wins solidly 10/10 by this alone, setting aside his accolades and various other impressive feats.

Muur after a hard fight.