Ichigo as NARUTO

@nyas: Can you show someone getting hit by the bijuu bomb? you know so we can determine the durability one needs to survive it.

@sophia89: Thank you ! I really appreciate the complement :D

That's not how it's done, it's the other way around : "Can you show bijuu bombs destroying something ? So we can determine the durability of one who survives it."

In which case the weakest Bijuu bombs were shown to be mountain busting.

@sophia89: Good question (though I already addressed it). My guess is that it's due to IT originally being a jutsu meant to create Kaguya's minions. After all, you can't really turn dead people into White zetsus, can you ?

@nyas: So how is ichigo suppose to get hit by that when he can speed blitz and kill? or just speed blitz out of the way.

@sophia89: Come to think of it, those kages were summoned using White zetsu bodies as sacrifices... Maybe it's because of that.

Already addressed those points. I already dislike being interpreted in the middle of a serious debate... but if it's to ask the already answered question then don't barge in without reading please...

@nyas: Dont see anywhere in here where you contested Speed blitzing.

Then read post 50 more carefully...

Actually never mind, you are more than likely to turn this discussion into pure BS with your attitude. So go debate this with someone else as I don't plan on repeating myself or debate this with you at all. Have a nice day.

I like this thread

@thatguywithheadphones: Naruto should have never beaten Kakuzu. Kakuzu getting outsmarted by him was PIS.

Deva not being able to use his powers until the end was PIS.

I could go on for half the shippuden battles alone but I wont bother. Im a big Naruto fan and it actually doesnt bother me but its not something you can ignore while debating.

@darthvxder:

Naruto should have never beaten Kakuzu. Kakuzu getting outsmarted by him was PIS.

Why exactly? Naruto had been outsmarting people with clones since part 1.

Deva not being able to use his powers until the end was PIS.

No it wasn't he was unable to use it because of using an extremely powerful version of it. Also he was also using it in the middle to battle.

I'd say he makes it to Madara, if not then Tobi being the lowest, he should be stronger in Bankai but we don't know what he can do yet.

For all those people saying Ichigo clears lets say he makes it to EOS Saskue. How is Ichigo supposed to win when Naruto drew Saskue only beacuse of PIS and WIS(naruto without PIS and WIS gets brutallay murderd by Saskue at least 8/10 times.) when Naruto>Ichigo?

@nyas

Now it`s time we go back to both character`s respective roots because there is no end without a beginning and by doing this we can see how they compare, and I`m backing Ichigo all the way as I must debate on his behalf, here comes the flooding of memories and nostalgia :)

While that is true you wouldn`t be absolutely right considering people form all corners of comicvine support the method of fan calcs and its worked out fine for them as long as there is a foundation then facts can be found. Also although you do bring up a good point it doesn`t change what I already stated as calculations have been used for both Naruto and Bleach also both series still provide a form of reasoning within their own science to bring light to a lot of things it`s better to debunk than to discredit a feat without having to take away its credit in the first place with a counter. Also this doesn`t mean we can`t make sense with what is happening and use resources to reason since even with comics although mathematics can be off we still measure the feats in more ways than one.

They do, a lot of individuals who strictly follow Naruto would claim a certain character is this fast since he beat a character who outran lightning and that this character is this strong because he beat this character it doesn`t apply appropriately to Naruto and its characters. ABC logic can work if applied with understanding but it doesn`t apply here..

Well... That`s not exactly the problem, the problem is that they are very inconsistent since they show that those instances are in fact not their standard speed levels also the scans you posted merely showed Kakashi blocking chakra lightning which is not natural. Here is Itach having trouble with reacting to Kirin which draws from natural elements and this is Itachi using Susanoo instead of speed. There are instances with Naruto himself that I can provide but this exemplifies it enough and there are other Naruto characters with this problem as well.

And the lightning in Bleach is more akin to natural lightning also Bleach characters have been hypersonic before Naruto characters were hypersonic...

Here we have Candice Catnipp a Quincy who is known for representing the element of lightning, summon lightning from the clouds within the sky which is natural lightning and channel it so that she can use her technique Galvano Javelin this attack seemed to be in more range and depth than the one you showed also its not outsourced like chakra is. Ichigo reacts to it and its more within his first person view than anything while Kakashi had the time and distances to actively move his muscles to coordinate his movements, and the lightning seemed to be mild.

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Also there is even a handbook/databook which was written and overseen by Kubo that likens Ichigo to lightning speeds. And this was during the Huecdo Mundo arc...

His feat against Byakuya is more impressive than even most Naruto characters during the mid-point of Shippuden.

Interesting feat, that fight was awesome and I have it on my MP3 lol. When Chyo and Sakura were facing off against Sasori she did prove to be fast but it is isn`t all that impressive and Its not about them reacting to kunais, and that isn`t all impressive when characters in Bleach are reacting to energy projectiles that are easily supersonic. And I can show far stronger characters failing to react to similar projectiles and strikes.

Well, I didn`t say that Naruto lacked sonic boom, friction or just overall momentum. Only that a lot of the times they seemed to be timed and gradually incoming attacks I see more sonic booms within Bleach and I watched all of Naruto Part 1 up until Shippuden.... Bleach`s attacks seem to not only be faster but the characters who dodge them don`t have the inconsistency problem that Naruto characters seem to have in regards to speed and I could make the same excuse.

Not true. That is only your opinion, I can show many instances of them being far superior to Naruto characters and I can say the same about the fastest characters in Naruto such as Minato, Itachi, Sasuke, Naruto and etc being guilty of the same thing. In Bleach, these same characters who disappear and reappear can cross certain distances also they have superior sensory to Naruto characters and can move faster than the eye can follow, also to be hypersonic you would have to be mach 5 and above, Bleach characters have feats to support this while Naruto characters rely on ABC logic such as one character doing a certain feat you could say so for Bleach but it isn`t as inconsistent and its more compatible for it to work while in Naruto people gauge their speeds based on dodging energy attacks. And also that`s what Naruto characters seem to do... Disappear and reappear...

I see, but the proof wasn`t clear and didn`t prove what you were trying to initially indicate.

Again, like I said there isn`t. And that`s a bad excuse, because hers was more powerful it has nothing to do with turning people into Zetsus which others believe to be just Madara`s technique in the first place also that doesn`t debunk its other limits of it being able to control only people with chakra. And even the Edo Tensei`s were surprised that it wasn`t working so what you stated was only a claim the instance of what you showed with the Kabuto fight is that the Genjutsu was working on Itachi who still had chakra. It focuses on chakra points which Ichigo doesn`t have... Its not typical TP like what you see in Marvel and DC... There are many instances of Bleach characters facing TP related attacks and being able to overcome them since its on the spiritual plane and works with spiritual senses, it will work differently than Naruto and its mechanics.

Actually... Yes you do... That`s why Madara utilized the Moon if he didn`t need it he wouldn`t of have relied on it and the moon reflects the light, this was further noted by Sasuke and the other characters it is only your belief and opinion that I am wrong but I have evidence. Kaguya has nothing to do with it as she appeared after the technique was put into place by Madara and it doesn`t prove it would Ichigo, Sasuke never replicated the technique after either and even the most powerful Sharingan users are less impressive when compared to the more skilled ones such as Itachi as Zetsu notes this. Madara was just a vessel and the Zetsu was apart of the plan in actually bringing back Kaguya...

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I have plenty of evidence especially since Genjutsu is meant to affect chakra flow and it doesn`t hurt the victim it only uses illusions which Ichigo has come across before. Ichigo does not have chakra so it wouldn`t work considering it needs to attack the brain signals that interconnects with chakra flow points within the body.

False. Those types are more impressive because they do not only affect all senses they affect the spiritual sense as well. While Genjutsu requires chakra and can be broken easier the reason why Kakashi and others may have trouble with it is because of the genjutsus nature to make the victim believe they are going through pain and Naruto characters aren`t that pain tolerant or durable in the first place.... And I could say the same about Kaguya and Madara`s victims having no proof of potent resistance against Genjutsu which seems to be more within the plot device of having a sharingan anyway. Also when under Absolute Hypnosis, characters were fooled easier whereas genjutsu can be detected by chakra sensory just like Karin and like I said the nature between the two types of TP are different.. And Aizen`s hypnosis affected everyone and it can even affect non human characters also it effects all senses to a more deeper degree. Also its far harder to detect or comprehend and even when they are aware they can`t stop it unlike Genjutsu where there is multiple ways of countering it.. And its worked for over a hundred years based on the fact that it was used on characters hundred years prior without them noticing even until the current times in Bleach and Aizen`s shown more versatility with it...

I have shown more evidence.

Like I said I debunked it.... And I have seen the databooks it doesn`t change what I said... I brought up chakra absorption because Kaguya herself has shown limits with chakra and like I said IT was still in effect, the reason why it worked all those years ago is because she was the FIRST to have chakra and the most powerful as noted by the Sage of Six Paths, that`s why it worked and none of the characters previously have shown feats of resisting genjutsu so of course it would work.

That`s a huge difference from Kaguya and Uchiha members like Sasuke, Itachi and etc who rely on chakra points, why is that then?? This rule has been consistent throughout the series, Kaguya was the first to have chakra it makes a huge difference and how would that in anyway indicate it would work on people outside of Naruto`s universal laws?

Like I said I can reverse argument with much more ease...

Yes it did and I have proven so.

They weren`t small hills.... They were mountains and the collateral damage was impressive also Ichigo showed comparable levels of damage when facing Grimmjow even Kenpachi himself has shown these capabilities although it doesn`t matter since destructibility doesn`t equal all the other attributes within a fight.

That still doesn`t answer my question though... Even with that level of durability, that doesn`t mean Ichigo wouldn`t be able to crack it with far more powerful energies and I can see the direct proof for this?

Its pretty relevant when it proves that Naruto characters aren`t that special to begin with...

Not true lol. I have seen their feats, they only showed blunt force damage when in terms of focused and concussive attacks their left vulnerable, Sasuke and Naruto lost their arms in the end despite all the explosive damage and they can`t even regenerate also like I said piercing damage is vastly different... Also that doesn`t mean they have more stamina or metabolism because Ichigo`s fights last a lot longer and he`s barely phased a lot of the times also Naruto and Sasuke despite all their upgrades still retain the same level of pain tolerance they can only go so far with their chakra reserves just like Superman only they are more limited...

They are very human. I can show many fights from Part I to Part 2, your only thinking about explosive mountain range attacks when their healing factors, pain tolerance and etc is human level... Naruto can`t survive without the fox if he`s pierced in the heart he will die, same with Sasuke, Ichigo can survive and come back from being killed, and I know we are talking about durability which is why I put so much emphasis on it to begin with. Naruto characters aren`t average humans but they are still VERY human... Especially compared to Bleach characters who survive being impaled in the chest and blown apart. Its not that they unlimited stamina or energy its that they can last longer with their limited energies, Naruto characters can run low on chakra faster and they consume it at a more alarming rate just to perform a few neat tricks. While Bleach characters can keep on trucking even with certain level injuries and you have no proof whatsoever that chakra is above spiritual energy.

Here are instances from Part I and Part II, compared to Bleach which already separates humans from Shinigami... I can go on and on about Naruto all day.... Itachi succumbs to an illness despite his willpower and they have clear limits unlike Bleach characters.

That`s my point. I know he fought five of them and he was toying with them but my point was that Tsunade was able to at-least cause harm to the Susanoo and that was physical force or blunt damage not the more important damage such as piercing damage and etc. Bleach characters` attacks are more focused and even with his Susanoo Sasuke lost his arm...

Because I have already seen those they are cool and impressive but overrated. Sasuke cut smaller chunks of meteorites that weren`t even coming from the depths of space I`ve compared those feats with Kenpachi`s and there`s a clear difference in which one was more impressive. Kaguya was fast but by feats she wasn`t that fast. Kakashi still has problems outrunning other characters and he couldn`t keep that up during the whole fight how about the time when Naruto and Sasuke couldn`t sense Kaguya? Or the time Kaguya surprised Kakashi, Aizen by feats would be more impressive and Ichigo trumped him when it came to speed...

Impressive but not that impressive when I look at the scans I wouldn`t consider that a blitz or nearly blitzing and Naruto reacted fine lol.

Not true, like I said there is plenty of evidence and I don`t have to rely on ABC logic.

Fair enough. Well based on the calculations and evidence I have seen it could be easily classified as supersonic-hypersonic due to how fast the petals were coming from all directions and they were auto-locked, Ichigo was also batting away thousands of them in under a second. There is more to it but I see it as hypersonic to be honest. Another thing is Byakuya himself has shown feats that prove he is above Mach 2 as he is faster than the eye can perceive or faster than sound and its barriers so it would make sense why the majority would clock it at hypersonic levels since Ichigo himself after his first fight with Byakuya has even shown feats that put him passed supersonic tiers.

Well its not like DBZ where it is legit and Naruto characters are pretty inconsistent when it comes to speed but I understand where you are coming from but I don`t see how that would mean Naruto > Bleach.

Well I have already, everything you have shown me I already know for both Naruto and Sasuke like I said it looks fancy in the Naruto world because were used to seeing these characters being treated as peak human street levelers but outside of it, its not that impressive. They have that but I think Flash Step is more impressive since they cross further distances with it and it takes more skill to utilize it within full effect combat.

Well I have actually.

I see where your coming from because I have been there but that was in the beginning of Naruto up until Shippuden which is why I don`t think their consistent, and not really. Because some people still believe Naruto characters are faster than Luffy, Dante and etc.

Which is the problem because speed isn`t what it takes to win a fight it could be a great advantage but it can be a bad thing too and its not like their the Flash where the gap is that big of a difference.

Lol. That`s not a durability feat, that`s a resistance feat, he deflected the attacks. Ichigo crushed nuke level attacks at a weaker stage and he`s tanked them also like I said spiritual energy is far more powerful because its more concentrated and it works on another plane. Naruto can`t tank piercing damage without the fox and he`s still near death at least Ichigo can.

Ichigo has fought for days if i I`m not mistaken and that doesn`t make Sasuke super when it comes to stamina because him and Naruto`s fight barely lasted also they take breaks within Naruto from chapter to chapter and like I said they still consume chakra on a faster level also radius has nothing to do with damage because explosive energies a lot of the time are not as powerful as focused ones and Ichigo can still pierce Susanoo also this still doesn`t debunk my point.

Lol. Like I said they have breaks and rests between chapters even Sasuke and Naruto its not an instant transition also they receive more help in the long run.... Ichigo doesn`t receive that much help and his fight with Aizen seemed to last pretty long.

That`s of the same universe not a different one.. Then you would have to compare it to Ki which it is not it obviously has different properties and spiritual pressure is different from chakra flow so you can`t compare the two by name because I could easily compare then to stuff in Marvel or DC and I obviously would be incorrect.

That doesn`t debunk my point it only furthers it about the different types of tiers who have shown anything special with their chakra usage also that doesn`t all of a sudden mean it equals the energies in Bleach.

I did already and like I said their not even auto-lock on attacks which are far more impressive.

He has done it against respective energy attacks and I`m referring to him focusing his spiritual energy.

Lol. Still doesn`t matter since like I said Ichigo could easily dodge them their not instant attacks anyway and Ichigo`s dodged attacks that were a few seconds and meters from him also what would that do? Ichigo has broken out of Aizen`s Black Coffin technique which was bending space and time.

Not true because my logic and point was that they couldn`t sense his movements as frequently which would be correct because its chakra points and energy that allows them to detect their opponents, I`m not talking about damage, Ichigo could still damage them with his spiritual energy.

Still doesn`t debunk my point since I can make that same excuse with the different Hollows in Bleach creating massive attacks that are highly focused and Bleach attacks still incinerate their targets at a far more common level.

By that logic people shouldn`t be comparing Bjiuu bombs to nukes in any sense and nukes work by different energies.. But that`s not the point the point is Bleach is still far more impressive when it comes to focus and even small attacks that don`t reach that level of radius or distance can still cause severe amounts of damage even proven in the earlier Bleach fights when skyscraper level pillars are being busted and there are no mountains around...

Then... That`s a problem... Because it would make her and the rest look inconsistent with their feats by going on-panel feats she hasn`t done anything that impressive also Obito and Madara trump the Naruto verse for its standards but not the Bleach universe since I can provide feats for Aizen being comparable and like I said, despite her reality warping she still was incompetent with her abilities so no matter how powerful they may seem they will always be lacking...

Ichigo can easily evade since Kakashi has and Shinigamis cross dimensions, another thing is I don`t see her one-shotting Ichigo at all.... Why wouldn`t Ichigo just one-shot her?

I agree.

I will.

He is and he has regeneration on top of that although it could be argued that their almost equal in this category.

Not by much though.

Not true. Like I said it only looks that way because of versatility but Aizen has KS, Black Coffin, Transcendence, and what you mentioned for Madara is false. He doesn`t even have planet level TP, like I said he needed certain resources to be able to even reach that scale its not a standard power within his power-set.

There is plenty of proof.

Lol, what does that prove? I can show way more impressive instances in Bleach...

Based on the fact that Naruto and Sasuke barely lasted without arm and were about to bleed to death.. Sakura had to heal them so despite them being able to tank explosions and H2H attacks their actual pain tolerance and healing factors remain the same since Part I despite their chakra increases which has nothing to do with actual durability or healing factors....

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Like I said still not impressive compared to the amount of damage they endure through and what about the end of the fight? That piercing damage wasn`t that deep... And what about in the final conclusion of that fight where Naruto gets knocked out completely...? Sasuke could of killed him... Even the Pain fight... But compare it to Bleach and there`s no comparison...

Already proven so.

That has nothing to do with how it would affect Ichigo. Universally is made true that Genjutsu works on chakra and requires chakra to work on its type which is chakra.

I know that and I agree but my point was that with certain attacks they require chakra in the first place which is why I don`t think it would be as effective against a lesser type of human character who doesn`t operate by those laws..

Not true, it applies to all the other Naruto characters.

Not true because I can easily say his reiatsu would cancel it out and that he has no chakra points.

Proof of this? They seemed to be exuding and exerting themselves by quite a lot and Kaguya isn`t the jokey type lol. She was pretty serious when facing her opponents.

Transcendence and Kido already provide the evidence.

Where`s the twisting of the perception of time in that context scan?

Now this makes more sense but its more of they are feeling and its more noticeable, Juha couldn`t even notice it despite his level of power until later....

Its not about power.... Its that Ichigo regained something from it, he put to good use his Full Bringer abilities which make him more versatile and like I said it doesn`t matter because its composite Ichigo.

I could say the same about Ichigo stopping at Obito when by feats he`s comparable to Aizen and composite means all so its not my opinion its by fact.

Because of regeneration... And that still doesn`t mean Ichigo is not as impressive because he still managed to harm Aizen also that doesn`t mean he wouldn`t obliterate the Naruto characters either and like I said Aizen still couldn`t phase him also that was a weaker Ichigo.

Based on the fact he already has comparable feats and abilities also the fact that he didn`t lose as easily without heavy context.

That`s what I meant, and I`m pretty sure there was a second time as Sakura even noted. But my point and fact remain intact.

Because by feats she isn`t that great and in most fights Naruto characters need help you could say so for Bleach characters but it isn`t as obvious or as showcased, and people use that feat to somehow say Naruto can solo the HST.... And Ichigo fought Aizen by himself until later much later when Urahara intervened....

The fact that he is able to fight these current Quincy is proof enough and he`s more experienced as well a skilled so isn`t all about power as I mentioned before so I do have proof and facts to backup my statements not simple opinions or exaggerations of repetitive and overused feats.

No I read the whole OP multiple times and I am correct... Ichigo is in Naruto`s POV is the previous statement which only means he`s in Naruto`s shoes and universe and doing the things he did also by your arguments you seem to not know how important composite is within this overall scenario... Here is the definition.... Also when using this term for a character it also refers to them being at full power because they encompass all their best showings and it means all his feats are applicable its not like the OP just said current Ichigo that would be different even if we could include his past feats and a composite would be stronger with his feats from the anime/filler/movies and etc...

made up of disparate or separate parts or elements; compound:

I already provided proof.

He does..... That scan is over-hyped since those mountains don`t look as big as everyone is overrating them to be and like I said its more concentrated and the craters are pretty small...

Such as fights with Kaguya and Madara.

Because he has no way around his regeneration and you can`t assume just because he has Tailed Beast Chakra that it would save him from KS or Aizen`s spiritual attacks also in terms of Hollows they are spirits and I`m curious if Naruto would be able to affect them or even see them but even if he could I don`t know if his attacks would be that effective. And like I said Obito is comparable to Aizen you could say Aizen had power and stats above Ichigo yet Ichigo still was fighting him fine for the most part.

No I didn`t and I know that lol. That doesn`t mean he hasn`t applied prep in a useful or creative way before his training with Zengetsu, Urahara, The Vizards and Yoruichi is proof of what he can do with the right mindset and that doesn`t mean the Naruto characters would be as prepared against him as they were against Naruto and the others... So not only has Ichigo trained with multiple and different types of characters in his universe but he has shown that he is more than capable of applying it in different ways its just that Kubo`s characterization for him is quite bad unfortunately and Getsuga Tensho seems to be his favorite move but that doesn`t mean he will be one-dimensional when in another universe that could easily push him because in his own he was pushed and became very strong in a short amount of time imagine what could happen in the Naruto universe based on the rules and criteria.... I wouldn`t be surprised if Ichigo managed out of everyone else, to find something special about chakra and correlate it back to his spiritual energy.

No problem and you brought up great points again! I agree, although I think Ichigo could really lose, I just think he has a good shot at pulling it off but either way we both can be right at the end of the day without even knowing it :) But I do think in the end I may be the one to be considered to be in the wrong due to Naruto`s recent hype which is why I don`t really want to get too deep when it comes to the HST since the hype will die down eventually and I might not get too deep into this debate since it turns out the same way usually when it comes to the HST. But your awesome as well as amazing as usual :)

And like I said with a beginning there is an ending and with an opening we also have a closing.

@nyas

@neongamewave: your a saint

What is your opinion on this match/scenario?

@neongamewave: great posts, Ichigo should make it to the end.

Thanks and I agree :)

@neongamewave:Wow! though I disagree with some of your points, you deserve respect, if just for the effort you put into this answer !

My turn now :

Now it`s time we go back to both character`s respective roots because there is no end without a beginning and by doing this we can see how they compare, and I`m backing Ichigo all the way as I must debate on his behalf, here comes the flooding of memories and nostalgia :)

Not sure why this is necessary, especially since the entire debate can be summarized with : "How is Ichigo getting past Juubi Obito ?". But sure, let's see how this turns out. (Who doesn't like nostalgia anyway :P)

While that is true you wouldn`t be absolutely right considering people form all corners of comicvine support the method of fan calcs and its worked out fine for them as long as there is a foundation then facts can be found. Also although you do bring up a good point it doesn`t change what I already stated as calculations have been used for both Naruto and Bleach

I respectfully disagree. A few people support fan calcs in comic vine that much is true, however I have yet to see a thread where bringing in fan calcs didn't make it go down hill. You can tell just by checking a few, those threads tend to go off topic and switch from rational analysis to who can provide the most inflated calc to support their characters. As a matter of fact, there are a few forums out there where the use of fan calcs is strictly prohibited. This may not be the case for Comic vine since fan calcs aren't brought up that often (most comics don't make use of them) however anime related forums are an entire matter entirely, and the same logic still applies.

Besides, as I previously said, most (not to say all) artists don't keep track of the scientific accuracy of their own work and are usually ignorant of the implications of their own feats. In this occasion I'd like to bring up this feat for the Flash as an example :

As one can clearly see, the writer of the issue intended for this feat to be a near light speed feat "at a hair's breadth short of the speed of light". However, using calcs the quantify the feat gave us completely different result entirely "13 trillion times the speed of light". This is ridiculously large contradiction and only goes to show how unreasonable quantifying feats not intended to be quantified can be.

also both series still provide a form of reasoning within their own science to bring light to a lot of things it`s better to debunk than to discredit a feat without having to take away its credit in the first place with a counter. Also this doesn`t mean we can`t make sense with what is happening and use resources to reason since even with comics although mathematics can be off we still measure the feats in more ways than one.

My point exactly ! There are other ways to prove the speed of something without relying on the unreasonable and flawed logic of fan calcs, so we should use those means instead.

They do, a lot of individuals who strictly follow Naruto would claim a certain character is this fast since he beat a character who outran lightning and that this character is this strong because he beat this character

I partially agree with you here. Partially because, it's indeed wrong to say that a characters is this strong because he beat that character since you don't need to be as strong as someone to beat them. However it is correct to say that this character is this fast because he blitzed this or that character, since reacting to said character's speed is a feat in itself. For instance :

Madara was able to react to every attack 7th gate Guy tries:

However he eventually got blitzed by 8th gate Guy :

Based on this we can tell that 8th gate Guy > Madara > 7th gate Guy. It's a very legitimate way to do things and much better than calcs since it's a clear display of how the writer perceives the speed comparison of his own characters.

Note that this is strictly in regards to speed, since you can't for example claim that Madara hits harder or has more stamina or is more durable than 7th gate Guy based on this feat, instead you will have to provide other feats proving this. It's common sense, really.

it doesn`t apply appropriately to Naruto and its characters.ABC logic can work if applied with understanding but it doesn`t apply here..

I don't see why, and you aren't explaining why either.

Well... That`s not exactly the problem, the problem is that they are very inconsistent since they show that those instances are in fact not their standard speed levels

Based on what ? And I can easily make the same excuse for Bleach characters.

also the scans you posted merely showed Kakashi blocking chakra lightning which is not natural. Here is Itach having trouble with reacting to Kirin which draws from natural elements and this is Itachi using Susanoo instead of speed. There are instances with Naruto himself that I can provide but this exemplifies it enough and there are other Naruto characters with this problem as well.

So.... basically what you did was paraphrase what I said here :

"You mean Natural massive mountain sized+ blots of lightning that are fired from barely a few meters and that are stated to move at hundreds of times the speed of sound. Naruto characters never had trouble outrunning the energy based lightning that other mangas such as bleach use"

That was point. You can't treat spiritual/mystic/magical(etc) based lightning the same as Naturally occurring lightning or Natural energy based lightning. Besides, this isn't limited to Naruto characters unlike what you like to emphasis.

Here we have Candice Catnipp a Quincy who is known for representing the element of lightning, summon lightning from the clouds within the sky which is natural lightning and channel it so that she can use her technique Galvano Javelin

1)There is nothing natural about lightning coming from a spiritual plane of existence, clouds or not.

2)Candice's lightning has never been natural since she is producing it herself right here :

3)Here GJ are in no shape or form made of natural lightning since we see her using them as swords right here :

4) She isn't summoning lightning from clouds it's the other way around, since she sends a massive electricity discharge then redirects it to attack Ichigo.

this attack seemed to be in more range and depth than the one you showed

Showing range or power wasn't my point. If I wanted to, I would have used the mountain busting Kirin :

also its not outsourced like chakra is.

It actually is as proven above

Ichigo reacts to it and its more within his first person view than anything while Kakashi had the time and distances to actively move his muscles to coordinate his movements, and the lightning seemed to be mild.

Not true at all since Kakashi was blown away by Kakuzu's wind blast but was still fast enough to cross the entire distance and perfectly intercept the lightning attack.

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But we are going off topic here, as you seem to be misunderstanding what I said and mislead into believe that I claim those blots to be as fast as real lightning when my point was the complete opposite.

Also there is even a handbook/databook which was written and overseen by Kubo that likens Ichigo to lightning speeds. And this was during the Huecdo Mundo arc...His feat against Byakuya is more impressive than even most Naruto characters during the mid-point of Shippuden.

This is an obvious figure of speech much like "faster than the wind" or "Godlike speed". Nonetheless, this remains amusing since the third Databook does the same with Sasuke lol

Even more, the Databook goes as far as to explain that Kirin is unavoidable due to it moving at light speed.

No matter how you look at it, these figure of speeches aren't meant to be taken literally.

Interesting feat, that fight was awesome and I have it on my MP3 lol. When Chyo and Sakura were facing off against Sasori she did prove to be fast but it is isn`t all that impressive

Showing her being impressive wasn't the point.

and Its not about them reacting to kunais, and that isn`t all impressive when characters in Bleach are reacting to energy projectiles that are easily supersonic.

Based on what ?

And I can show far stronger characters failing to react to similar projectiles and strikes.

Everyone has low-end and high-end feats, but lease do show some as I don't remember this happening.

Well, I didn`t say that Naruto lacked sonic boom, friction or just overall momentum.

I didn't say that you did either. My point is that you can't claim that this projectile is below sonic speed just because there is no sonic boom or friction shown. Since by that logic, no one in Bleach is sonic either since they don't cause sonic booms each time they move. Just keep in mind that scientifically accurate representations aren't what the writers aim for.

Only that a lot of the times they seemed to be timed and gradually incoming attacks

Because Ichgo screaming : "Getsuga Tensho!!!!" each time he is about to attack isn't timed ?

I see more sonic booms within Bleach and I watched all of Naruto Part 1 up until Shippuden....

Bleach was merely lucky to get better animations, nothing more. But since you are basing this on on animations and "what looks faster" I could easily say that even part 1 Naruto was faster than most Bleach characters because of this :

Naruto Moving so fast, the air friction causes flames to erupt on the wooden plank he moved past.

Bleach`s attacks seem to not only be faster but the characters who dodge them don`t have the inconsistency problem that Naruto characters seem to have in regards to speed and I could make the same excuse.

You keep on spamming "inconsistency this and inconsistency" that but you have yet to present a single proof of this claimed inconstancy, so this remain an empty claim.

Not true. That is only your opinion,

An "opinion" factually correct.

I can show many instances of them being far superior to Naruto characters

Empty claims, please do provide these instances.

and I can say the same about the fastest characters in Naruto such as Minato, Itachi, Sasuke, Naruto and etc being guilty of the same thing.

Except that Naruto fans do go around claiming their characters to be this or that fast because of those unquantifiable speed tropes. We have clear quantifiable feats to use.

In Bleach, these same characters who disappear and reappear can cross certain distances

OK, your point ?

also they have superior sensory to Naruto characters

No they don't, not even close. Naruto characters are leagues above Bleach characters in this aspect, with abilities ranging from chakra sensing that can be used from countries away, to inter-dimensional beings sensing as well as various visual powers and malice sensing.

and can move faster than the eye can follow,

Something BoS Sasuke could do lol

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also to be hypersonic you would have to be mach 5 and above, Bleach characters have feats to support this

#NoProof

while Naruto characters rely on ABC logic such as one character doing a certain feat

Legit representation supportable by the very creator of the manga and still much better than Bleach fans use of fan calcs.

you could say so for Bleach but it isn`t as inconsistent and its more compatible for it to work while in

More empty claims about inconsistency.

Naruto people gauge their speeds based on dodging energy attacks.

Among other things such as this : Creating fire through air friction, something no Bleach character has done to date.

And also that`s what Naruto characters seem to do... Disappear and reappear...

Refer to what I said above about this part.

I see, but the proof wasn`t clear and didn`t prove what you were trying to initially indicate.

How so ?

Again, like I said there isn`t.

Said, but never proved.

And that`s a bad excuse, because hers was more powerful it has nothing to do with turning people into Zetsus which others believe to be just Madara`s technique in the first place

Oh really ? so Manga scans are wrong then ? And the 100k+ WZ appeared out of nowhere then ?

also that doesn`t debunk its other limits of it being able to control only people with chakra.

An imaginary limitation that's already been debunked. Since genjutsu worked on people over a thousand years ago, when no one other than Kaguya had chakra as proven by both the manga and databook.

the instance of what you showed with the Kabuto fight is that the Genjutsu was working on Itachi who still had chakra.It focuses on chakra points which Ichigo doesn`t have...

Irrelevant. You keep on repeating that Genjutsu need chakra when that's already been canonically debunked.

Its not typical TP like what you see in Marvel and DC...

Empty claims.

There are many instances of Bleach characters facing TP related attacks and being able to overcome them since its on the spiritual plane and works with spiritual senses, it will work differently than Naruto and its mechanics.

Completely and utterly made up.

Actually... Yes you do... That`s why Madara utilized the Moon if he didn`t need it he wouldn`t of have relied on it and the moon reflects the light, this was further noted by Sasuke and the other characters it is only your belief and opinion that I am wrong but I have evidence.

No you don't x2. What you have are misinterpretations.

The jutsu itself doesn't need the moon, you only need the moon to extend your reach to a planetary level.

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Kaguya has nothing to do with it as she appeared after the technique was put into place by Madara

Kaguya was the first user of the Jutsu... over a thousand years ago according to manga scans and Databook. She used it on people who had no chakra. This completely and utterly debunks the idea of genjutsu needing chakra to work.

and it doesn`t prove it would Ichigo,

Does Ichigo have any TP resistance ? No ? There you got your answer.

Sasuke never replicated the technique after either and even the most powerful Sharingan users are less impressive when compared to the more skilled ones such as Itachi as Zetsu notes this.

LOL even basic sharingan genjutsu works on the dead : So any Uchiha solos Ichigo.

Madara was just a vessel and the Zetsu was apart of the plan in actually bringing back Kaguya...

Ok and ?

I have plenty of evidence especially since Genjutsu is meant to affect chakra flow and it doesn`t hurt the victim it only uses illusions which Ichigo has come across before. Ichigo does not have chakra so it wouldn`t work considering it needs to attack the brain signals that interconnects with chakra flow points within the body.

Already debunked.

False. Those types are more impressive because they do not only affect all senses they affect the spiritual sense as well.

A silly and completely made up excuse.

While Genjutsu requires chakra and can be broken easier

Nox2. So it's the other way around, Genjutsu doesn't require chakra to work and only people with chakra can break genjutsu. So Genjutsu will work on Ichigo and he doesn't ahve chakra to break out it = GG.

the reason why Kakashi and others may have trouble with it is because of the genjutsus nature to make the victim believe they are going through pain and Naruto characters aren`t that pain tolerant or durable in the first place...

#NoProof

And I could say the same about Kaguya and Madara`s victims having no proof of potent resistance against Genjutsu which seems to be more within the plot device of having a sharingan anyway.

Training in Genjutsu is one of the basics of every Ninja. Regardless, this is irrelevant as Bleach characters don't have any TP resistance either so Genjustu = GG.

Also when under Absolute Hypnosis, characters were fooled easier whereas genjutsu can be detected by chakra sensory just like Karin and like I said the nature between the two types of TP are different..

Powerful people can still tell that something is wrong while under KS even though they have no TP defense at all as shown by Unohana. Is Ichigo a chakra sensor ? No ? then irrelevant.

And Aizen`s hypnosis affected everyone

Only those who saw the ritual.

and it can even affect non human characters

Same with genjutsu.

also it effects all senses to a more deeper degree.

Empty claims.

Also its far harder to detect or comprehend and even when they are aware they can`t stop it unlike Genjutsu where there is multiple ways of countering it.

Same with the more powerful genjutsus and you can counter KS by touching the blade or just closing your eyes.

And its worked for over a hundred years based on the fact that it was used on characters hundred years prior without them noticing even until the current times in Bleach

Kaguya IT worked on people for over a thousand years (white zetsu army) so...

and Aizen`s shown more versatility with it...

No, all aizen did was use illusions, while genjutsu can be used to achieve that as well as mind break a target, mind control, paralyze among other things.

Like I said I debunked it....

Where ? when ? How ?

And I have seen the databooks it doesn`t change what I said...

I seriously doubt you ddi because the Databook debunks the chakra argument.

I brought up chakra absorption because Kaguya herself has shown limits with chakra and like I said IT was still in effect,

And this is relevant ? How ?

the reason why it worked all those years ago is because she was the FIRST to have chakra and the most powerful as noted by the Sage of Six Paths, that`s why it worked and none of the characters previously have shown feats of resisting genjutsu so of course it would work.

You've just debunked yourself lol

You claim that genjutsu needs chakra to work and yet you explicitly state that Kaguya use it when she was the first chakra user (so no one else had chakra). And no bleach character have Tp resistance so I don't see what you are getting at.

Kaguya was the first to have chakra it makes a huge difference and how would that in anyway indicate it would work on people outside of Naruto`s universal laws?

Because it worked on people without chakra ? Which debunks the "no chakra = no genjutsu" pseudo-argument people use to claim that Genjutsu wouldn't work lol

Like I said I can reverse argument with much more ease...

Of course you can, but you still aren't making sense which is what matters.

Yes it did and I have proven so.

No it didn't and you still haven't proven this.

They weren`t small hills.... They were mountains and the collateral damage was impressive also Ichigo showed comparable levels of damage when facing Grimmjow even Kenpachi himself has shown these capabilities although it doesn`t matter since destructibility doesn`t equal all the other attributes within a fight.

This isn't a mountain, no matter how I look at it.

That still doesn`t answer my question though... Even with that level of durability, that doesn`t mean Ichigo wouldn`t be able to crack it with far more powerful energies

When has Ichigo ever shown... no... ever come anywhere remotely close to showing multi-island level attack ?

and I can see the direct proof for this?

Madara's perfect susanoo protecting Kurama.

Its pretty relevant when it proves that Naruto characters aren`t that special to begin with...

No it isn't, you are apparently throwing context out the window.

Not true lol. I have seen their feats, they only showed blunt force damage when in terms of focused and concussive attacks their left vulnerable

Oh really ? lol

Sasuke and Naruto lost their arms in the end despite all the explosive damage

.... They weren't protected by any form of chakra cloak or suanoo at the time... and to make it worse they were literally half dead and unable to even stand. Wow, I never thought anyone would even think about using that instance to downplay their durability...

and they can`t even regenerate

Because Ichigo normally can, right ? And please don't bring that one instancewith his hollofied self we all know that isn't something he can replicate as it happened within a very demanding context.

also like I said piercing damage is vastly different...

You were saying ?

Also that doesn`t mean they have more stamina or metabolism because Ichigo`s fights last a lot longer and he`s barely phased a lot of the times

#NoProof

also Naruto and Sasuke despite all their upgrades still retain the same level of pain tolerance they can only go so far with their chakra reserves just like Superman only they are more limited...

Yes, because you often see people with busted arms laugh in happiness right ?

They are very human. I can show many fights from Part I to Part 2, your only thinking about explosive mountain range attacks when their healing factors, pain tolerance and etc is human level...

#NoProof.

Naruto can`t survive without the fox if he`s pierced in the heart he will die, same with Sasuke, Ichigo can survive and come back from being killed

LOL yeah he totally can. Seriously... ?

and I know we are talking about durability which is why I put so much emphasis on it to begin with. Naruto characters aren`t average humans but they are still VERY human... Especially compared to Bleach characters who survive being impaled in the chest and blown apart.

Being impaled in the chest isn't always fatal... and some naruto characters can do that as shown with Naruto.

Its not that they unlimited stamina or energy its that they can last longer with their limited energies, Naruto characters can run low on chakra faster and they consume it at a more alarming rate just to perform a few neat tricks. While Bleach characters can keep on trucking even with certain level injuries

Proof please ?

and you have no proof whatsoever that chakra is above spiritual energy.

It is in versatility as shown by the wide range of abilities it can grant. And should I remind you that you are the one who claimed that Spiritual energy was > Chakra without proof ?

Here are instances from Part I and Part II, compared to Bleach which already separates humans from Shinigami...

You mean normal humans, which Naruto characters aren't.

I can go on and on about Naruto all day.... Itachi succumbs to an illness despite his willpower and they have clear limits unlike Bleach characters.

Because Bleach characters have no limits now ?

That`s my point. I know he fought five of them and he was toying with them but my point was that Tsunade was able to at-least cause harm to the Susanoo and that was physical force or blunt damage not the more important damage such as piercing damage and etc. Bleach characters` attacks are more focused

Tsunade only ever caused damage to his rib-cage susanoo. Nothing else. You shouldn't go around acting as if all forms of Susanoo have the smae difficulty, you know very well how dishonest that is. And there is no more important damage, blunt/cutting/piercing are different and characters can be more durable gaianst one rather than the other, but that doesn't mean that any of them is more important than the others.

and even with his Susanoo Sasuke lost his arm...

Please tell me you didn't just write this...

Now I think you are attempting to downplay, because sasuke didn't have any susanoo active at that time.

Because I have already seen those they are cool and impressive but overrated. Sasuke cut smaller chunks of meteorites

Smaller ? Huh ?

Those meteorites were absolutely massive... even their debries completely dwarfed entire mountain ranges :

that weren`t even coming from the depths of space I`ve compared those feats with Kenpachi`s

As if kenachi's small meteorite came from the depths of space....

and there`s a clear difference in which one was more impressive.

Indeed busting several massive meteorites > busting a small one.

Kaguya was fast but by feats she wasn`t that fast. Kakashi still has problems outrunning other characters and he couldn`t keep that up during the whole fight how about the time when Naruto and Sasuke couldn`t sense Kaguya? Or the time Kaguya surprised Kakashi,

I hope you realize that this entire scene was happening in slow motion...

Kaguya goes out of her space-time portal, she extends her hand while Naruto and sasuke start turning around, by the time they looked back, Kaguya was already holding them. Which is we see the exclamation marks even though they looked calm in the previous panel.

Aizen by feats would be more impressive and Ichigo trumped him when it came to speed...

By feats ichigo still gets murked by Obito *shrugs*

Impressive but not that impressive when I look at the scans I wouldn`t consider that a blitz or nearly blitzing and Naruto reacted fine lol.

Naruto has enhanced reflexes on par with Juubi Madara according to databook... you know the same Madara who was still barely reaction to a relativistic Guy (bending space... yes space as confirmed by the official viz translation). Him reacting (he didn't) isn't a bad showing for Kaguya at all.

Not true, like I said there is plenty of evidence and I don`t have to rely on ABC logic.

Saying that there is evidence isn't the same as presenting evidence. Just saying.

Fair enough. Well based on the calculations and evidence I have seen it could be easily classified as supersonic-hypersonic due to how fast the petals were coming from all directions and they were auto-locked, Ichigo was also batting away thousands of them in under a second. There is more to it but I see it as hypersonic to be honest. Another thing is Byakuya himself has shown feats that prove he is above Mach 2 as he is faster than the eye can perceive or faster than sound and its barriers so it would make sense why the majority would clock it at hypersonic levels since Ichigo himself after his first fight with Byakuya has even shown feats that put him passed supersonic tiers.

This one feat from Guy should be more than enough to prove my point then :

Guy punching the air so fast, the friction is enough to create fire and send shock waves flying.

Well its not like DBZ where it is legit and Naruto characters are pretty inconsistent when it comes to speed but I understand where you are coming from but I don`t see how that would mean Naruto > Bleach.

Why the double standards ? And where is this supposed inconsistency ?

Not like you've provided a proof for your statement either.

Not at the time, and I think I already debunked it anyway.

Well I have already, everything you have shown me I already know for both Naruto and Sasuke

I kid of doubt that.

like I said it looks fancy in the Naruto world because were used to seeing these characters being treated as peak human street levelers but outside of it, its not that impressive.

Impressive enough to take Bleach characters from what I've seen. :)

They have that but I think Flash Step is more impressive since they cross further distances with it and it takes more skill to utilize it within full effect combat.

Not really... I don't remember any flash step users cross entire countries within minutes/seconds unlike shunshin users.

I see where your coming from because I have been there but that was in the beginning of Naruto up until Shippuden

Their feats say otherwise (sasuke outrunning supersonic shock waves, Naruto's punches causing powerful shock waves, Haku Blitzing 12 naruto clones faster than a water droplet could reach the ground from barely a few inches etc)

which is why I don`t think their consistent

Characters improve, Ichigo did, Luffy did, Naruto did, Toriko did... there is nothing inconsistence about this.....

and not really. Because some people still believe Naruto characters are faster than Luffy

But they are *runs away*

Lol. That`s not a durability feat, that`s a resistance feat, he deflected the attacks.

Deflecting the attack is a proof of his durability... He was literally punching around massively concentrated ball of mountain busting energy.

Ichigo crushed nuke level attacks at a weaker stage and he`s tanked them

Unquantifiable feat, Lanza was big but it doesn't have any destruction feats.

also like I said spiritual energy is far more powerful because its more concentrated

No it isn't.

and it works on another plane.

No it doesn't either, and chakra can do that just fine (bringing back the dead etc)

Naruto can`t tank piercing damage without the fox and he`s still near death at least Ichigo can.

Irrelevant since the Kyuubi is part of Naruto's power, and Ichigo can't survive a lethal wound without his hollow self either.

Ichigo has fought for days if i I`m not mistaken

I don't remeeber this ever happening.

and that doesn`t make Sasuke super when it comes to stamina because him and Naruto`s fight barely lasted

... A full day, from sun rise to sun set. After fighting an entire war...

also they take breaks within Naruto from chapter to chapter

5 minutes break each 2 days of fighting ?

also radius has nothing to do with damage because explosive energies a lot of the time are not as powerful as focused ones

That's my point with the Nukes/bijuu bomb comparison... as well as Lanza.TBB are ridiculously focused for what they can do.

and Ichigo can still pierce Susanoo also this still doesn`t debunk my point.

#NoProof.

Lol. Like I said they have breaks and rests between chapters even Sasuke and Naruto its not an instant transition also they receive more help in the long run....

Because a few minutes of rest after a war is totally enough for them to rest... and by that logic Bleach characters also take breaks lol

Ichigo doesn`t receive that much help

He does.

and his fight with Aizen seemed to last pretty long.

A few minutes at most.

That`s of the same universe not a different one.. Then you would have to compare it to Ki which it is not.it obviously has different properties and spiritual pressure is different from chakra flow so you can`t compare the two by name because I could easily compare then to stuff in Marvel or DC and I obviously would be incorrect.

That's what equalization is for... and the Naruto verse has something akin of spiritual pressure...

That doesn`t debunk my point it only furthers it about the different types of tiers who have shown anything special with their chakra usage

If you think so then you obviously misunderstood what I said, because my point was that everyone's chakra is just a portion of Kaguya's original chakra. And there is no reason at all to assume that divine = unique.

also that doesn`t all of a sudden mean it equals the energies in Bleach.

It's called equilization... otherwise we wouldn't even be able to debate anything because by that logic magic isn't magic and ki isn't ki etc

Ad Ichigo would have no chance against Obito or Madara due to him not having Natural energy.

I did already and like I said their not even auto-lock on attacks which are far more impressive.

No you didn't and you still haven't presented any answer to Gudodamas that you keep on confusing with Bijuu damas.

He has done it against respective energy attacks and I`m referring to him focusing his spiritual energy.

When has he ever done that against an attack anywhere near as powerful as a TBB and he wouldn't damage them at all since you have no proof of that.

Lol. Still doesn`t matter since like I said Ichigo could easily dodge them their not instant attacks anyway and Ichigo`s dodged attacks that were a few seconds and meters from him also what would that do?

He can't dodge if he is imprisoned inside a barrier that can tank attacks so much out of Ichigo's league it's not even funny.

Ichigo has broken out of Aizen`s Black Coffin technique which was bending space and time.

an unquantifiable feat since that coffin didn't have have any durability feats whatsoever.

Not true because my logic and point was that they couldn`t sense his movements as frequently which would be correct because its chakra points and energy that allows them to detect their opponents, I`m not talking about damage, Ichigo could still damage them with his spiritual energy.

Why would they even need to sense his energy when they are already out of his speed league ?

Still doesn`t debunk my point since I can make that same excuse with the different Hollows in Bleach creating massive attacks that are highly focused and Bleach attacks still incinerate their targets at a far more common level.

I'm not making any excuse unlike you, with you attempts at differentiating between chakra and reiatsu. Well I can understand though, Ichigo wouldn't stand a chance without people arguing semantics.

And no Bleach attack is more focused that a bijuu bomb... they are small not focused, big difference.

By that logic people shouldn`t be comparing Bjiuu bombs to nukes in any sense and nukes work by different energies.. But that`s not the point the point is Bleach is still far more impressive when it comes to focus and even small attacks that don`t reach that level of radius or distance can still cause severe amounts of damage even proven in the earlier Bleach fights when skyscraper level pillars are being busted and there are no mountains around...

The energy used is irrelevant, the amount of energy in MT is what matter, I thought this was basic knowledge ?

also building <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Mountains I don't see how you can even compare the two smh.

And again small =/= focused. Bijuu bombs are focused, since they are barely a few inches wide when launched until they explode to reach massive range and cause massive damage, bleach attacks are just weak and small not focused.

Then... That`s a problem... Because it would make her and the rest look inconsistent with their feats by going on-panel feats she hasn`t done anything that impressive

Not a problem at all since it's just a matter of misunderstand from your part.

also Obito and Madara trump the Naruto verse for its standards but not the Bleach universe since I can provide feats for Aizen being comparable

I have read every bleach chapter and watched the anime, and Aizen has never ever done anything remotely as impressive as Obito...

and like I said, despite her reality warping she still was incompetent with her abilities so no matter how powerful they may seem they will always be lacking...

So ? Ichigo still isn't beating Obito.

Ichigo can easily evade since Kakashi has

Flawed logic, Kakshi doged due to his PF speed being comparable to naruto and sasuke, Ichigo doesn't have that kind of speed.

and Shinigamis cross dimensions,

Something Ichigo never used on his won.

another thing is I don`t see her one-shotting Ichigo at all....

That doesn't mean that she can't.

Why wouldn`t Ichigo just one-shot her?

Because she is immortal and Ichigo has nowhere near enough feats to suggest he could put a dent on someone who tanked an attack visible against planetary curvature :

He is and he has regeneration on top of that although it could be argued that their almost equal in this category.

He isn't Aizen's best durability feats were tanking building busting attacks lol

Not by much though.

?

Not true. Like I said it only looks that way because of versatility but Aizen has KS,

That he lost the moment he evolved.

Black Coffin,

That requires a ridiculously long chanting and was oneshotted by Ichigo's arm (same arm that got wrecked by a multi-hill busting fragor) lol

Transcendence,

Any Juubi jin has that... It's not even a universal thing, Aizen was merely transcending his own verse characters.

and what you mentioned for Madara is false. He doesn`t even have planet level TP, like I said he needed certain resources to be able to even reach that scale its not a standard power within his power-set.

He does as I already proved, that's liek saying that Aizen doesn't have Hogekyo because it's not part of his "standard" abilities...

There is plenty of proof.

None so far

Lol, what does that prove? I can show way more impressive instances in Bleach...

That Naruto's characters durability isn't human......

Based on the fact that Naruto and Sasuke barely lasted without arm and were about to bleed to death.. Sakura had to heal them so despite them being able to tank explosions and H2H attacks their actual pain tolerance and healing factors remain the same since Part I despite their chakra increases which has nothing to do with actual durability or healing factors....

Desperate downplay and out of context showing that I already debunked (not that I need to since anyone who read the manga would know what happened).

Like I said still not impressive compared to the amount of damage they endure through and what about the end of the fight? That piercing damage wasn`t that deep... And what about in the final conclusion of that fight where Naruto gets knocked out completely...? Sasuke could of killed him... Even the Pain fight... But compare it to Bleach and there`s no comparison...

Sure, lets just use showings from weaker versions of the characters, that totally makes sense.

Ichigo getting knocked out by a fodder hollow :

Ichigo nearly dead after fighting some fodder hollow :

Ichigo can't even take his sword out of a wall (lol) :

Gallery

Ichigo oneshotted by a casual slash from Byakuya :

You get the point.

Already proven so.

No, you haven't.

That has nothing to do with how it would affect Ichigo. Universally is made true that Genjutsu works on chakra and requires chakra to work on its type which is chakra.

Not true at all and debunked sevarl times already.

I know that and I agree but my point was that with certain attacks they require chakra in the first place which is why I don`t think it would be as effective against a lesser type of human character who doesn`t operate by those laws..

What laws ? and by that logic why would Bleach attacks work any better ?

Not true, it applies to all the other Naruto characters.

Only people with Byakugan can attack chakra points... that's literally the reason Byakugan is so special....

Not true because I can easily say his reiatsu would cancel it out and that he has no chakra points.

Assumption and no one is targeting his chakra points, stop making things up.

Proof of this? They seemed to be exuding and exerting themselves by quite a lot and Kaguya isn`t the jokey type lol. She was pretty serious when facing her opponents.

Obito never got The Kyuubi or Hachibi's remaining chakra, Madara only had one Rinnegan for nearly the entire fight. Kaguya wanted them alive because she wanted tio absorb their chakra. Hvae you really read the manga ? O.o

Transcendence and Kido already provide the evidence.

In verse thing and fodder Kido was never impressive in the first place and never had anything to do with any God. So still no proof.

Where`s the twisting of the perception of time in that context scan?

Sasuke used it to fool danzo into thinking that he still had some time before his sharingan closed (Izanagi was over).

Now this makes more sense but its more of they are feeling and its more noticeable, Juha couldn`t even notice it despite his level of power until later....

Doesn't matter, genjutsu users don't usually care about whether or not the victim realizes they are inside an illusion.

Its not about power.... Its that Ichigo regained something from it, he put to good use his Full Bringer abilities which make him more versatile and like I said it doesn`t matter because its composite Ichigo.

What full bring feats does ichigo even have ? His power was stolen.

I could say the same about Ichigo stopping at Obito when by feats he`s comparable to Aizen and composite means all so its not my opinion its by fact.

Obito's feats > anything Aizen ever shown.

Because of regeneration... And that still doesn`t mean Ichigo is not as impressive because he still managed to harm Aizen also that doesn`t mean he wouldn`t obliterate the Naruto characters either and like I said

And Aizen's durability feats are what ? Multi-buildings ? Not impressive at all. How could he even dream of obliterating the Naruto characters when his feats put him nowhere near them ?

Aizen still couldn`t phase him also that was a weaker Ichigo.

Oh my God, no it's not....

Based on the fact he already has comparable feats and abilities also the fact that he didn`t lose as easily without heavy context.

No he doesn't, proof of said feats ?

That`s what I meant, and I`m pretty sure there was a second time as Sakura even noted. But my point and fact remain intact.

Only once, and what was your point again ? Sasuke needing help to beat a character that would fodderize Ichigo ?

Because by feats she isn`t that great and in most fights Naruto characters need help you could say so for Bleach characters but it isn`t as obvious or as showcased, and people use that feat to somehow say Naruto can solo the HST.... And Ichigo fought Aizen by himself until later much later when Urahara intervened....

Ichigo also needed help otherwise Aizen would have oblitrted him the instant he regenerated from the Mugetsu, so what are you egtting at ? Getting help is the very point of Shonen jump mangas....

The fact that he is able to fight these current Quincy is proof enough and he`s more experienced as well a skilled so isn`t all about power as I mentioned before so I do have proof and facts to backup my statements not simple opinions or exaggerations of repetitive and overused feats.

How do those fodder quincy even compare to aizen, let alone dangai Ichigo ? yu are twisting facts, not providing evidence. Anyone with proper Bleach knowledge would know that Dangai is Ichigo's strongest incarnation.

No I read the whole OP multiple times and I am correct... Ichigo is in Naruto`s POV is the previous statement which only means he`s in Naruto`s shoes and universe and doing the things he did

Still twisting facts, the op clearly explain that Ichigo gets the same knowledge Naruto got, nowhere does he mention full knowledge :

"gets all the Info and prep that Naruto had got in his fights but no training"

also by your arguments you seem to not know how important composite is within this overall scenario... Here is the definition.... Also when using this term for a character it also refers to them being at full power because they encompass all their best showings and it means all his feats are applicable its not like the OP just said current Ichigo that would be different even if we could include his past feats and a composite would be stronger with his feats from the anime/filler/movies and etc...

I know fully well what composite is, you are the one who keeps of making false claims about dangai Ichigo being weaker than current (not the one used in this thread as you seem to assume) which is why I had to correct you on the matter. Again, show me were I said that Ichigo isn't composite ?

I already provided proof.

You didn't. :/

He does..... That scan is over-hyped since those mountains don`t look as big as everyone is overrating them to be and like I said its more concentrated and the craters are pretty small...

This only goes to show how little you actually know about scaling :

First Size of the initial smaller crater:

The ten Tailed beast (Yellow) :

Incomplete juubi (first form) :

Madara and Obito standing on it's head (where the thud sfx is shown), notice that they are barely as big as one of it's eye commas :

Clearing created by the 8 tailed beast (Purple):

Size of the 8tailed beast compared to a human :

Now go back and compare the 8tails to the clearing and the clearing to the initial crater, and the initial crater to the juubi blast. It's absolutely massive !

If you want more :

The craters caused by the regular Bijuu bombs Naruto deflected (Orange) :

Size of the explosion (8tails clearing in red) :

By the way the initial crater was the combined bijuu dama of Kurama and the 8tails (Red) :

The Juubi barrier was nearly as large as the initial crater :

The roots of the Godtree, completely dwarf that barrier :

Then the size comparison between the Initial crater and the Secondary much larger crater :

Because he has no way around his regeneration and you can`t assume just because he has Tailed Beast Chakra that it would save him from KS or Aizen`s spiritual attacks

Aizen doesn't have any feats of regenerating from subatomic dismantling or attacks that completely vaporise his entire body, he stopped using KS the movement he evolved and didn't even use it on Ichigo besides Naruto still has sensing and malice sensing which would allow him to fight him even under KS that only affects the 5 senses, and Aizen's attack are nothing special compared to bijuu bombs, their best feats are literally busting a few hills lol That's nowhere near enough to get past Naruto's chakra cloak. Naruto can also seal him the same way he did with Limbo.

also in terms of Hollows they are spirits and I`m curious if Naruto would be able to affect them or even see them but even if he could I don`t know if his attacks would be that effective. And like I said Obito is comparable to Aizen you could say Aizen had power and stats above Ichigo yet Ichigo still was fighting him fine for the most part.

Why wouldn't he ? Naruto has chakra which contains spiritual energy and even if you chose to play double standards and illogically refuse to equalize the two out of your understand of how Bleach characters would stand absolutely no chance whatsoever if we were to. Naruto has feats of fighting invisible opponents (limbo) and hollows and shinigami aren't even intangible to begin with (Chad hitting a hollow with a telephone pole)

No I didn`t and I know that lol. That doesn`t mean he hasn`t applied prep in a useful or creative way before his training with Zengetsu, Urahara, The Vizards and Yoruichi is proof of what he can do with the right mindset and that doesn`t mean the Naruto characters would be as prepared against him as they were against Naruto and the others... So not only has Ichigo trained with multiple and different types of characters in his universe but he has shown that he is more than capable of applying it in different ways its just that Kubo`s characterization for him is quite bad unfortunately and Getsuga Tensho seems to be his favorite move but that doesn`t mean he will be one-dimensional when in another universe that could easily push him because in his own he was pushed and became very strong in a short amount of time imagine what could happen in the Naruto universe based on the rules and criteria.... I wouldn`t be surprised if Ichigo managed out of everyone else, to find something special about chakra and correlate it back to his spiritual energy.

That doesn't mean that he will magically find an answer to Gudodamas or how to hurt juubi jin or how to pull their chakra or how to teleport or how to fight Limbo or how to escape IT or How to seal Kaguya etc etc

Oh and there is nothing to correlate, chakra is literally a mix of spiritual energy and life force. Basically Reiryoku + life force.

No problem and you brought up great points again! I agree, although I think Ichigo could really lose, I just think he has a good shot at pulling it off but either way we both can be right at the end of the day without even knowing it :) But I do think in the end I may be the one to be considered to be in the wrong due to Naruto`s recent hype which is why I don`t really want to get too deep when it comes to the HST since the hype will die down eventually and I might not get too deep into this debate since it turns out the same way usually when it comes to the HST. But your awesome as well as amazing as usual :)

Thank you your points weer also very interesting once again. Though I still don't see Ichigo beating Obito, this may not be as impossible as I had originally thought. :D

@neongamewave: Oh boy this took me so much longer than I expected, but I had fun testing my Naruto and Bleach knowledge nonetheless. :D

Ps : Please don't mind the grammar mistakes, I haven't double check yet lol

It very quantifiable.

Ichigo unleashes a blast that travels through 3 worlds of Hell. Which has 3 levels and each is a world in itself when traveling down through the levels, skip to 1:14:10 to see what I am trying to say. The blast was powerful enough to travel a atmosphere distance, through a ocean, another atmosphere distance, through a stone land mass, and another atmosphere distance.

That is all quantifiable, and insane powerful.

I applaud the amount of effort going into this thread.

Pretty sure Ichigo is going to get insane as a character soon. So until then /popcorn.

@nyas said:

@neongamewave: Oh boy this took me so much monger than I expected, but I had fun testing my Naruto and Bleach knowledge nonetheless. :D

Ps : Please don't mind the grammar mistakes, I haven't double check yet lol

Read your entire post and it was EPIC! I have all the answers for every of the counters already noted but like I said, I might not get too deep with the HST argument because of where it leads to usually.

@neongamewave said:

@nyas said:

@neongamewave: Oh boy this took me so much longer than I expected, but I had fun testing my Naruto and Bleach knowledge nonetheless. :D

Ps : Please don't mind the grammar mistakes, I haven't double check yet lol

Read your entire post and it was EPIC! I have all the answers for every of the counters already noted but like I said, I might not get too deep with the HST argument because of where it leads to usually.

Thank you. I'm pretty sure I could keep going as I already have some kind of idea about what your answers will approximatively be. But I take it you want us to agree to disagree ? :)

@nyas said:

@neongamewave said:

@nyas said:

@neongamewave: Oh boy this took me so much longer than I expected, but I had fun testing my Naruto and Bleach knowledge nonetheless. :D

Ps : Please don't mind the grammar mistakes, I haven't double check yet lol

Read your entire post and it was EPIC! I have all the answers for every of the counters already noted but like I said, I might not get too deep with the HST argument because of where it leads to usually.

Thank you. I'm pretty sure I could keep going as I already have some kind of idea about what your answers will approximatively be. But I take it you want us to agree to disagree ? :)

No problem :) Same for me and that`s why I think we should agree to disagree but I still have interest in maybe continuing the debate because it is very fun!

@neongamewave said:

@nyas said:

@neongamewave said:

@nyas said:

@neongamewave: Oh boy this took me so much longer than I expected, but I had fun testing my Naruto and Bleach knowledge nonetheless. :D

Ps : Please don't mind the grammar mistakes, I haven't double check yet lol

Read your entire post and it was EPIC! I have all the answers for every of the counters already noted but like I said, I might not get too deep with the HST argument because of where it leads to usually.

Thank you. I'm pretty sure I could keep going as I already have some kind of idea about what your answers will approximatively be. But I take it you want us to agree to disagree ? :)

No problem :) Same for me and that`s why I think we should agree to disagree but I still have interest in maybe continuing the debate because it is very fun!

It's indeed fun, it's rather rare for me to meet people so knowledge on both animes. Anyway, though we may not share the same view, I think that we both respect each other's opinion, which is why agreeing to disagreeing may not be a bad idea (especially since this discussion is perhaps too time consuming). But of course if you yourself wish to keep going, I'll gladly accept. :D

also he does gets to nail Sakura, Hinata and pretty much every chick in the place, apparently they all like weirdos and emos. Ichigo got both of them.

casual country buster to hell buster.

@nyas: my thing is if its composite ichigo due to hellverse feats ichigo's setos rip through dimensions which is beyound planet buster

@alucardvanwayne1800: He's not fast enough to deal with anyone past the obito and jinchuriki battle

He can't even beat Obito even with all those unnecessary power ups

Ichigo stops at the juubi. Lol at people saying he stops vs pain.

Stops at juubito every time.

Lmao at him stopping at juubito. Canon ichigo can beat juubito

Hits a hard wall at juubito