Gotenks vs Gladiator

@Dredeuced said:

@alcoholbob said:

@Dredeuced: Comicvine Rule #1: When comic characters say something, it's a feat. When manga characters say something, its hyperbole.

Nah, when characters say something it's taken with a grain of salt, we just assume they're correct when they have A: Other feats backing it up B: A word from the author backing it up or C: they go onto back it up. No one assumes Sentry has the power of a million exploding suns just because that's his go to catchphrase here. Just like no one should assume that Cell should have solar system + level power without a feat or Toriyama confirming the statement.

No one assumes Sentry has the power of a million exploding suns because that was the description of his power while he was using it, and it blew up a couple of city blocks. It was directly contradicted on panel, whereas Cell's statement is uncontradicted.

Cell's statement was never contradicted in any way in the series, it was just unsubstantiated.

So why is earth still in piece then? If blast was as powerful as Toriyama says it is, then why is the earth left with no damage?

Buu is stronger by Cell, yet he never did anything close to blowing up a star.

Answer: Hyperbole

I think dbz characters reached superman's level (which includes full confident Gladiator) during the Frieza saga, so obviously I'll pick Gotenks as a winner here.

Reasons explained here:

http://www.comicvine.com/dragon-balls/18-46445/combat-speed-of-dragon-ball-characters/92-649740/#1

http://www.comicvine.com/dragon-balls/18-46445/combat-speed-of-dragon-ball-characters/92-649740/#1

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/speed-vs-strength-common-misconceptions/608680/?

@ToO_RaW said:

@Dredeuced said:

Hulk's claim to be the strongest has been counteracted by other Author's who have the absolute say in their storylines and feats as Stan Lee, that's the hassle with multiple Author's running a continuity (and is why you get stuff like Gladiator being hurt by things that have no right to hurt him). Cell's statement was never contradicted in any way in the series, it was just unsubstantiated. Toriyama clarifying that the blast was indeed as powerful as his statement is good enough when there's nothing else to go by, since his blast didn't hit anything else. It is still featless, but even later on we get base form Goku being capable of blowing up a planet ten times over by an on panel energy assessment from Bibidi. DBZ does have an inherent lack of feats, but it's a simple and logical extrapolation backed up by the author, even if he didn't directly blow up a solar system.

Unless you can show me Cell destroying a solar system my opinion won't be swayed.

I'll play Devil's advocate here though, and if it's as you say it is, it wouldn't have been Cell's "blast" that destroyed the solar system, it would have been the sun exploding that would have done so. This would make Cell a star buster. It has been said that Gladiator can collapse stars with his bare hands,

But again, it didn't happen.

you guys are unbelievable, just because it's manga or more precisely DBZ you won't accept any canon fact coming from the author? if it were Marvel or DC we wouldn't see all this denial.

everybody approve Beyonder is millions times more powerful than all the power of the multiverse combined even if no feat confirm it. it's only coming from author like Toryama confirming the Solar System buster. everybody approve that Beyonder tanked billions dimension buster blast, but it's only stated by character, like Cell stated he can bust Solar System, so why this hypocrisy? i can bring dozen other feats that are widely accepted but are the same as Solar System busting.

Stan Lee saying Hulk is strongest there is or Sentry has million exploding sun, are only claims, and are not registred as canon in any canon book.

you people need to study more what is canon and what isn't.

@All_Mighty_Beyonder: feats>databooks

you guys are unbelievable, just because it's manga or more precisely DBZ you won't accept any canon fact coming from the author? if it were Marvel or DC we wouldn't see all this denial.

I deny comics too and frankly spiderman vs. firelord is bullsh!t

everybody approve Beyonder is millions times more powerful than all the power of the multiverse combined even if no feat confirm it.

A reason Beyonder is legit is that he has two major storylines with a lot of feats, and for an omni- that has gotten retconned more than twice that is a good justification.

it's only coming from author like Toryama confirming the Solar System buster. everybody approve that Beyonder tanked billions dimension buster blast, but it's only stated by character, like Cell stated he can bust Solar System, so why this hypocrisy? i can bring dozen other feats that are widely accepted but are the same as Solar System busting.

Beyonder is credible because he has similar feats to back it up on panel

Cell never shows.

Stan Lee saying Hulk is strongest there is or Sentry has million exploding sun, are only claims, and are not registred as canon in any canon book.

Hyperbole

@All_Mighty_Beyonder said:

you guys are unbelievable, just because it's manga

There are mangas that show galaxies being destroyed without the use of hyperbole, so please stop with this BS

Gladiator Wins

@Death Certificate said:

Cell's statement was never contradicted in any way in the series, it was just unsubstantiated.

So why is earth still in piece then? If blast was as powerful as Toriyama says it is, then why is the earth left with no damage?

Buu is stronger by Cell, yet he never did anything close to blowing up a star.

Answer: Hyperbole

sigh...

do you know your the only one here who keep saying this non sense?

it's registred in canon publications. you're trolling and denying canon issues. sigh... unbelievable, just ubelievable.

@Death Certificate said:

Cell's statement was never contradicted in any way in the series, it was just unsubstantiated.

So why is earth still in piece then? If blast was as powerful as Toriyama says it is, then why is the earth left with no damage?

Buu is stronger by Cell, yet he never did anything close to blowing up a star.

Answer: Hyperbole

Concentrated energy. Same reason Odin can OHKO Surfer with a blast the size of a small car or Molecule Man can use a blast powerful enough to slag a hundred million dimensions without messing up an apartment. It's a consistent thing in both comics and manga for blasts of incredible power to not have massive collateral damage.

@All_Mighty_Beyonder said:

sigh...

do you know your the only one here who keep saying this non sense?

it's registred in canon publications. you're trolling and denying canon issues. sigh... unbelievable, just ubelievable.

Yup I'm the only person who thinks cell's statement is hyperbole, yet you haven't answered my question to why the earth isn't damaged by Cell's blast.

Databooks =/= Cannon

@Dredeuced said:

Concentrated energy. Same reason Odin can OHKO Surfer with a blast the size of a small car or Molecule Man can use a blast powerful enough to slag a hundred million dimensions without messing up an apartment. It's a consistent thing in both comics and manga for blasts of incredible power to not have massive collateral damage.

Difference being that both Odin and Molecule Man have other feats backing that up, Cell has nothing else but a statement. Also that apartment isn't just simple apartment, the beyonder contained a universe in that apartment.

Gladiator due to things already mentioned.

@Death Certificate said:

@Dredeuced said:

Concentrated energy. Same reason Odin can OHKO Surfer with a blast the size of a small car or Molecule Man can use a blast powerful enough to slag a hundred million dimensions without messing up an apartment. It's a consistent thing in both comics and manga for blasts of incredible power to not have massive collateral damage.

Difference being that both Odin and Molecule Man have other feats backing that up, Cell has nothing else but a statement. Also that apartment isn't just simple apartment, the beyonder contained a universe in that apartment.

What? DBZ characters are literally walking planet busters who frequently don't blow up planets. Vegeta blew up a bug planet and has launched thousands of blasts that didn't collaterally blow up the Earth because they can concentrate their energy. Nappa is a casual City buster but none of his blasts vs the Z warriors left a city size crater that he's obviously capable of producing. Piccolo is a moon buster, none of his collateral shots blow up the moon sized chunks out of the Earth. Freiza blew up a planet and didn't blow up Namek despite using hundreds of blasts until he intentionally wanted to blow it up. Buu blew up a planet but during his fight with Goku didn't do tons of collateral damage Of all things to harp on about DBZ this should not be one of them, you can't assume a blast isn't at X strength because of a lack of collateral damage in DBZ, energy concentration is one of their most consistent showings.

You're specifically trying to use confirmation bias and faulty logic that has never applied to traditional comics to DBZ just to discredit their powers. It's absurd.

Whoever starts out more powerful, I doubt Gladiator will be in the best of moods when he finds a tween boy is giving him a run for his money. His confidence should steadily drop from there.

@Rumble Man said:

@All_Mighty_Beyonder: feats>databooks

you guys are unbelievable, just because it's manga or more precisely DBZ you won't accept any canon fact coming from the author? if it were Marvel or DC we wouldn't see all this denial.

I deny comics too and frankly spiderman vs. firelord is bullsh!t

everybody approve Beyonder is millions times more powerful than all the power of the multiverse combined even if no feat confirm it.

A reason Beyonder is legit is that he has two major storylines with a lot of feats, and for an omni- that has gotten retconned more than twice that is a good justification.

it's only coming from author like Toryama confirming the Solar System buster. everybody approve that Beyonder tanked billions dimension buster blast, but it's only stated by character, like Cell stated he can bust Solar System, so why this hypocrisy? i can bring dozen other feats that are widely accepted but are the same as Solar System busting.

Beyonder is credible because he has similar feats to back it up on panel

Cell never shows.

Stan Lee saying Hulk is strongest there is or Sentry has million exploding sun, are only claims, and are not registred as canon in any canon book.

Hyperbole

are you kidding? maan, this is Beyonder's expert talking here. bring me one feat where Beyonder confirm he's millions time more powerful than all multiverse combined, bring me one feat that confirm that Beyonder can resist billions dimensional explosion. bring me one feat that confirm TOAA is more powerful than a rat in sewage, bring one feat that Living Tribunal has multiversal power level....etc etc. feats alone make no sense when they aren't backed with canon statements.

Databooks are canon. and Solar System buster is confirmed and registrated as canon. Toryama has even went out to confirmed this fact in canon publications for the only purpose to respond to the likes of you who doubt Cell's statement.

it's only when there is contradictions in canon publications, that we start doubting facts. and Solar System bust has no contradiction.

sorry to say this i don't mean to be mean. but it's ridiculous to discuss this. you need to restudy what's canon and what's not.

@ghost_rider1:

Those scans are ancient.

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@All_Mighty_Beyonder:

The one where he had that contest of strength with molecule man

Not the marvel expert here, ask someone else.

word of creator or actual on panel feats?

disregard their attempts to edit their mistakes (SoK failing to kill cassidy)

Never really saw anybody in dbz canon (manga) busting a sun/star on panel without it being described by another character (planet is believable)

What? DBZ characters are literally walking planet busters who frequently don't blow up planets. Vegeta blew up a bug planet and has launched thousands of blasts that didn't collaterally blow up the Earth because they can concentrate their energy.

Anime =/=Manga

Difference between Nappa & Picclo is that both of them blew up the city and moon. Also frieza didn't blow up namek because he wanted beat Goku with his own. Cell did nothing to prove he could blow up a solar system. Sure his blast could destory more than two planets, but whole solar

@The_Young_Wolf said:

Smh. Ancient scans are ancient.

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Sue was powered by captain universe, but don't let that stop you from lowballing.

Toriyama's databooks confirm it. I was mocking your statement that his blast couldn't be so powerful because it didn't collaterally destroy the Earth when DBZ has tons of people who have high destructive capability that don't leave major collateral damage. It was a blatantly incorrect assumption.

@Death Certificate said:

Sue was powered by captain universe, but don't let that stop you from lowballing.

Yes she was. It's not like I was hiding it. I've provided scans showing Sue give her captain universe powers to Gladiator. The point was Sue as Captain universe wasn't impressive but she was able to take out Gladiator with ease. Gladiator with the Captain Universe powers took 2 minutes getting to the California coastline, which means he would have been even slower with out it.

@ghost_rider1:

gotenks is SSJ3, which is infinitely faster, stronger and more powerful than a SSJ... the same SSJ that owned Frieza (a planet buster)

so, any SSJ would own Frieza, and any SSJ3 would own a SSJ, beside that... Gotenks is not really skilled, mainly because he's like 7 years old...

@The_Young_Wolf said:

@Death Certificate said:

Sue was powered by captain universe, but don't let that stop you from lowballing.

Yes she was. It's not like I was hiding it. I've provided scans showing Sue give her captain universe powers to Gladiator. The point was Sue as Captain universe wasn't impressive but she was able to take out Gladiator with ease. Gladiator with the Captain Universe powers took 2 minutes getting to the California coastline, which means he would have been even slower with out it.

You had enough time to mention "moment of doubt" but not enough to say that sue was powered by captain universe. Ok then.

Toriyama's databooks confirm it. I was mocking your statement that his blast couldn't be so powerful because it didn't collaterally destroy the Earth when DBZ has tons of people who have high destructive capability that don't leave major collateral damage. It was a blatantly incorrect assumption.

@Death Certificate said:

Anime =/=Manga

Difference between Nappa & Picclo is that both of them blew up the city and moon. Also frieza didn't blow up namek because he wanted beat Goku with his own. Cell did nothing to prove he could blow up a solar system. Sure his blast could destory more than two planets, but whole solar

Akira Toriyama

Gallery

"Age 801 - Goku goes missing. He and Vegeta realized they were nearing the end of their prime. Vegeta and Goku mysteriously vanish from the Earth. Years later, explosions on par with supernovas were detected, which were believed to be caused by a battle between Goku and Vegeta."

Translations

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14963

http://dragonball.comgames.de/?forum-showposts-1479-p1

"An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One's personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!"

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22411

Sure his blast could destory more than two planets, but whole solar

"Kili

http://magikarp46.dyndns.org/dragonball/daizenshuu/07/07-046.html

Those scans are ancient.

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@czarny_samael666 said:

?

?

@Death Certificate said:

Anime =/=Manga

Difference between Nappa & Picclo is that both of them blew up the city and moon. Also frieza didn't blow up namek because he wanted beat Goku with his own. Cell did nothing to prove he could blow up a solar system. Sure his blast could destory more than two planets, but whole solar

Akira Toriyama

Gallery

"Age 801 - Goku goes missing. He and Vegeta realized they were nearing the end of their prime. Vegeta and Goku mysteriously vanish from the Earth. Years later, explosions on par with supernovas were detected, which were believed to be caused by a battle between Goku and Vegeta."

Translations

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14963

http://dragonball.comgames.de/?forum-showposts-1479-p1

"An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One's personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!"

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22411

Sure his blast could destory more than two planets, but whole solar

"Kili

http://magikarp46.dyndns.org/dragonball/daizenshuu/07/07-046.html

@ghost_rider1 said:

@Dredeuced

Toriyama's databooks confirm it. I was mocking your statement that his blast couldn't be so powerful because it didn't collaterally destroy the Earth when DBZ has tons of people who have high destructive capability that don't leave major collateral damage. It was a blatantly incorrect assumption.

U clinging to this solar system busting thing. Do u honestly think gladiator will even give him the time to power up for that. And second...gotenks is incredibly slow compared to gladiator. Gotenks speed is ridiculous compared to someone who can travel at FTL speed. Gladiator bust planests with FISTS... Gotenks need KI to bust planets and he has to power up just to do that. One punch from gladiator will KO gotenks. Ur whole argument here is invalid becuz gotenks won have time to power up....and even if gladiator let's him do it. He still won't hit him with it.

Power up times are grossly exaggerated. Gotenks has clear planet+ durability because he tanked shots from Buu without being phased. I have given no opinion on the debate as a whole, I am just here to correct people making inaccurate and, frankly, absurd observations about DBZ.

@ghost_rider1 said:

@The_Young_Wolf

@Death Certificate said:

Anime =/=Manga

Difference between Nappa & Picclo is that both of them blew up the city and moon. Also frieza didn't blow up namek because he wanted beat Goku with his own. Cell did nothing to prove he could blow up a solar system. Sure his blast could destory more than two planets, but whole solar

Akira Toriyama

"Age 801 - Goku goes missing. He and Vegeta realized they were nearing the end of their prime. Vegeta and Goku mysteriously vanish from the Earth. Years later, explosions on par with supernovas were detected, which were believed to be caused by a battle between Goku and Vegeta."

Translations

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14963

http://dragonball.comgames.de/?forum-showposts-1479-p1

"An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One's personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!"

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22411

Sure his blast could destory more than two planets, but whole solar

"Kili

http://magikarp46.dyndns.org/dragonball/daizenshuu/07/07-046.html

All of this is nothing more than hyperbole. If gohan has the force to push back a beam that had the force to destroy the solar system.....what do u think would have happened to the earth if the force of his aura was greater than a force to destroy a solar system...it means its BS! Not even vegito showed power to destroy a solasr system. So stop wit this nonsense....if they have no feats to back their claim up then it means nothing

Prove that it's hyperbole. The author's statements have much more weight than your opinion.

The bolded part of your post, I don't understand it. Though if you mean what I think you mean, you clearly don't know how ki works in DBZ.

@ghost_rider1 said:

All of this is nothing more than hyperbole. If gohan has the force to push back a beam that had the force to destroy the solar system.....what do u think would have happened to the earth if the force of his aura was greater than a force to destroy a solar system...it means its BS! Not even vegito showed power to destroy a solasr system. So stop wit this nonsense....if they have no feats to back their claim up then it means nothing

All of that is the official word of the creator of dragon ball. I would imagine the same thing that happens every other time, nothing. Because characters from the Dragon Ball condense their energy into smaller areas to avoid destruction on that level. Goku never destroyed a city block. I realize we all have our opinions, but yours does not superseded the opinion of Toriyama in regards to his own creation.

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@nickzambuto said:

Whoever starts out more powerful, I doubt Gladiator will be in the best of moods when he finds a tween boy is giving him a run for his money. His confidence should steadily drop from there.

Gladiator is aware of his confidence issues and is in complete control.

@ghost_rider1 said:

@The_Young_Wolf

@Death Certificate said:

Anime =/=Manga

Difference between Nappa & Picclo is that both of them blew up the city and moon. Also frieza didn't blow up namek because he wanted beat Goku with his own. Cell did nothing to prove he could blow up a solar system. Sure his blast could destory more than two planets, but whole solar

Akira Toriyama

"Age 801 - Goku goes missing. He and Vegeta realized they were nearing the end of their prime. Vegeta and Goku mysteriously vanish from the Earth. Years later, explosions on par with supernovas were detected, which were believed to be caused by a battle between Goku and Vegeta."

Translations

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14963

http://dragonball.comgames.de/?forum-showposts-1479-p1

"An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One's personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!"

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22411

Sure his blast could destory more than two planets, but whole solar

"Kili

http://magikarp46.dyndns.org/dragonball/daizenshuu/07/07-046.html

All of this is nothing more than hyperbole. If gohan has the force to push back a beam that had the force to destroy the solar system.....what do u think would have happened to the earth if the force of his aura was greater than a force to destroy a solar system...it means its BS! Not even vegito showed power to destroy a solasr system. So stop wit this nonsense....if they have no feats to back their claim up then it means nothing

Prove that it's hyperbole. The author's statements have much more weight than your opinion.

The bolded part of your post, I don't understand it. Though if you mean what I think you mean, you clearly don't know how ki works in DBZ.

@Rumble Man said:

@All_Mighty_Beyonder:

The one where he had that contest of strength with molecule man

Not the marvel expert here, ask someone else.

word of creator or actual on panel feats?

disregard their attempts to edit their mistakes (SoK failing to kill cassidy)

Never really saw anybody in dbz canon (manga) busting a sun/star on panel without it being described by another character (planet is believable)

no.

that instance with Owen only confirm he can shake multiverse and cause several damages in it. there's no feat that shows him millions times more powerful than multiverse or can resist billions dimension explosion. there is only statements. and this is one of the biggest experts in Beyonder and Cosmic entites talking to you, Beyonder is my number1 favorite character. i know all his feats. also there is no feat that show TOAA is more powerful than pretty much anything, nor has LT shown power at multiversal level. but everybody confirm that they are, why? because of statments. so, as i said early, feats alone make no sense without canon statements backing it.

also we never seen Android 17 destroy a planet, but he's more powerful than planet busters by far. never seen Goku destroy a planet but at his weakest SSJ was more powerful than Frieza who blowed in base form planet Vegeta that is 10 times planet earth. does that mean Goku can't blow a planet? does that mean Android 17 can't blow a planet?

we never seen Surtur or Odin destroy a galaxy, but it's only mentioned that he has power to do it, does that mean he can't? of course not. Surtur and Odin are widely recognized galaxy busters. it's the same with Cell, his power is exponentially massively superior to Frieza at final form, who's massively superior (283 times) to his weakest form which he used to destroy 10x planet. so just by common sense, it's banal if Cell can destroy the solar system. and we have statement in manga confirming that. then we have author confirming that as canon fact.

so we have common sense, canon statement, and canon fact confirming that. and no contradiction to that at all. so any suggestion that it's hyperbol is completly wrong and speculative.

Dragonball Z characters only had long powerup times when they first transform or in the anime, which was obviously padded for filler and episodes. Goku and Gotenks could, after doing it once, quickly transform to SSJ3 with no power up delay.

@ghost_rider1 said:

@Laurcus

@ghost_rider1 said:

@The_Young_Wolf

@Death Certificate said:

Anime =/=Manga

Difference between Nappa & Picclo is that both of them blew up the city and moon. Also frieza didn't blow up namek because he wanted beat Goku with his own. Cell did nothing to prove he could blow up a solar system. Sure his blast could destory more than two planets, but whole solar

Akira Toriyama

"Age 801 - Goku goes missing. He and Vegeta realized they were nearing the end of their prime. Vegeta and Goku mysteriously vanish from the Earth. Years later, explosions on par with supernovas were detected, which were believed to be caused by a battle between Goku and Vegeta."

Translations

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14963

http://dragonball.comgames.de/?forum-showposts-1479-p1

"An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One's personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!"

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22411

Sure his blast could destory more than two planets, but whole solar

"Kili

http://magikarp46.dyndns.org/dragonball/daizenshuu/07/07-046.html

All of this is nothing more than hyperbole. If gohan has the force to push back a beam that had the force to destroy the solar system.....what do u think would have happened to the earth if the force of his aura was greater than a force to destroy a solar system...it means its BS! Not even vegito showed power to destroy a solasr system. So stop wit this nonsense....if they have no feats to back their claim up then it means nothing

Prove that it's hyperbole. The author's statements have much more weight than your opinion.

The bolded part of your post, I don't understand it. Though if you mean what I think you mean, you clearly don't know how ki works in DBZ.

Feats! Feats! Feats! Feats! Feats! Oh.....did I forget to mention feats?! Without feats his statements are nothing more than words. Yes...he is the author and his words do carry SOME weight. But feats carry more weight than statements. U ever heard the sayin..... ACTIONS ARE BETTER THAN WORDS! Well that's true. No one from DBZ has ever displayed that level of poewer....not even super vegito. They have displayed planet level butsting KI attacks...but solar system busting attacks is hyperbole. And like I said earlier...gotenks will have to power up just to do a planet busting attack. And his speed is a non factor cuz gladiator is wayyyyyyyyyyyy faster. Any KI attack he uses won't even hit gladiator. Gladiator can bust planets with his fists and fists alone. Gotenks loses

Let's get one thing straight. I'm not arguing that Gotenks will beat Gladiator. In fact, I refuse to give an opinion on that one way or the other. I am here to refute illogical statements about DBZ, not to push an agenda of one character beating another.

Let me lay this out very plainly. The bolded is wrong. Not factually wrong, but logically. Please please don't dismiss what I'm saying just because you want to be right, try to learn and understand what I'm saying, because it will make all kinds of sense once you get it. The part that I bolded is a logical fallacy. Specifically, it falls under the argument from ignorance fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Your argument if I understand it, is that no one from DBZ has actually displayed this level of power, (busting a solar system) therefore, since they lack the feats that prove they can do it, any statement made that says they can is hyperbole. This is the textbook definition of this fallacy, "It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false, it is "generally accepted" (or vice versa)." You are simply using the inverse, the vice versa. You are asserting that something is false because it has not been proven true. And that is faulty logic, hence this style of argument being included in the list of fallacies in informal logic.

You can't claim that Toriyama's statement is wrong just because it hasn't been proven true by feats.

@ghost_rider1 said:

@The_Young_Wolf Its not my word against his.....its feats...he showed no PROOF of anything. Authors have stated many things in comics. It doesn't necessarily mean its true. Without proof....its hyperbole. And gladiator wouldn't give him the time to power up for such an attack.

Akira Toriyama created Dragon Ball, so your argument is fundamentally flawed. Dragon Ball wasn't written by "authors", it was written by Akira Toriyama. Toriyama didnt give this in a comic/manga, he said it in Guide books that were created to give extra information on the universe he created. In other words, you have no reason to doubt the word of Toriyama because he has no reason to lie.

Gotenks gotts power up for PLANET BUSTING attacks.

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Do u think Kallark will stand still and do nothing. Gotenks can't even keep up with him. Because he ALSO has no speed feats to match someone of FTL speed.

Canonball tagged Gladiator. When he had the Uni-power, it took Gladiator 2 minutes to fly to the California coastline.

Gotenks

@Laurcus said:

@ghost_rider1 said:

@Laurcus

@ghost_rider1 said:

@The_Young_Wolf

@Death Certificate said:

Anime =/=Manga

Difference between Nappa & Picclo is that both of them blew up the city and moon. Also frieza didn't blow up namek because he wanted beat Goku with his own. Cell did nothing to prove he could blow up a solar system. Sure his blast could destory more than two planets, but whole solar

Akira Toriyama

"Age 801 - Goku goes missing. He and Vegeta realized they were nearing the end of their prime. Vegeta and Goku mysteriously vanish from the Earth. Years later, explosions on par with supernovas were detected, which were believed to be caused by a battle between Goku and Vegeta."

Translations

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14963

http://dragonball.comgames.de/?forum-showposts-1479-p1

"An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One's personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!"

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22411

Sure his blast could destory more than two planets, but whole solar

"Kili

http://magikarp46.dyndns.org/dragonball/daizenshuu/07/07-046.html

All of this is nothing more than hyperbole. If gohan has the force to push back a beam that had the force to destroy the solar system.....what do u think would have happened to the earth if the force of his aura was greater than a force to destroy a solar system...it means its BS! Not even vegito showed power to destroy a solasr system. So stop wit this nonsense....if they have no feats to back their claim up then it means nothing

Prove that it's hyperbole. The author's statements have much more weight than your opinion.

The bolded part of your post, I don't understand it. Though if you mean what I think you mean, you clearly don't know how ki works in DBZ.

Feats! Feats! Feats! Feats! Feats! Oh.....did I forget to mention feats?! Without feats his statements are nothing more than words. Yes...he is the author and his words do carry SOME weight. But feats carry more weight than statements. U ever heard the sayin..... ACTIONS ARE BETTER THAN WORDS! Well that's true. No one from DBZ has ever displayed that level of poewer....not even super vegito. They have displayed planet level butsting KI attacks...but solar system busting attacks is hyperbole. And like I said earlier...gotenks will have to power up just to do a planet busting attack. And his speed is a non factor cuz gladiator is wayyyyyyyyyyyy faster. Any KI attack he uses won't even hit gladiator. Gladiator can bust planets with his fists and fists alone. Gotenks loses

Let's get one thing straight. I'm not arguing that Gotenks will beat Gladiator. In fact, I refuse to give an opinion on that one way or the other. I am here to refute illogical statements about DBZ, not to push an agenda of one character beating another.

Let me lay this out very plainly. The bolded is wrong. Not factually wrong, but logically. Please please don't dismiss what I'm saying just because you want to be right, try to learn and understand what I'm saying, because it will make all kinds of sense once you get it. The part that I bolded is a logical fallacy. Specifically, it falls under the argument from ignorance fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Your argument if I understand it, is that no from DBZ has actually displayed this level of power, (busting a solar system) therefore, since they lack the feats that prove they can do it, any statement made that says they can is hyperbole. This is the textbook definition of this fallacy, "It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false, it is "generally accepted" (or vice versa)." You are simply using the inverse, the vice versa. You are asserting that something is false because it has not been proven true. And that is faulty logic, hence this style of argument being included in the list of fallacies in informal logic.

You can't claim that Toriyama's statement is wrong just because it hasn't been proven true by feats.

owned & powned. :D

and you have hundreds of instances in Marvel and DC that imply only statement facts.

TOAA never showed any feat, only statements, but we don't come out and say he hasn't feat then he has no power.

LT never showed feats of power equal or above multiversal, only statements, but we don't come out and say he hasn't feat then he has no multiversal power

Odin and Surtur never showed feats of destroying galaxies, only statements, but we don't come out and say they haven't feats then they has no galaxy buster level.

...etc etc etc.

@ghost_rider1 said:

@The_Young_Wolf Its not my word against his.....its feats...he showed no PROOF of anything. Authors have stated many things in comics. It doesn't necessarily mean its true. Without proof....its hyperbole. And gladiator wouldn't give him the time to power up for such an attack.

Akira Toriyama created Dragon Ball, so your argument is fundamentally flawed. Dragon Ball wasn't written by "authors", it was written by Akira Toriyama. Toriyama didnt give this in a comic/manga, he said it in Guide books that were created to give extra information on the universe he created. In other words, you have no reason to doubt the word of Toriyama because he has no reason to lie.

Gotenks gotts power up for PLANET BUSTING attacks.

Gallery

Do u think Kallark will stand still and do nothing. Gotenks can't even keep up with him. Because he ALSO has no speed feats to match someone of FTL speed.

Canonball tagged Gladiator. When he had the Uni-power, it took Gladiator 2 minutes to fly to the California coastline.

@ghost_rider1 said:

@The_Young_Wolf

@ghost_rider1 said:

@The_Young_Wolf Its not my word against his.....its feats...he showed no PROOF of anything. Authors have stated many things in comics. It doesn't necessarily mean its true. Without proof....its hyperbole. And gladiator wouldn't give him the time to power up for such an attack.

Akira Toriyama created Dragon Ball, so your argument is fundamentally flawed. Dragon Ball wasn't written by "authors", it was written by Akira Toriyama. Toriyama didnt give this in a comic/manga, he said it in Guide books that were created to give extra information on the universe he created. In other words, you have no reason to doubt the word of Toriyama because he has no reason to lie.

Gotenks gotts power up for PLANET BUSTING attacks.

Gallery

Do u think Kallark will stand still and do nothing. Gotenks can't even keep up with him. Because he ALSO has no speed feats to match someone of FTL speed.

Canonball tagged Gladiator. When he had the Uni-power, it took Gladiator 2 minutes to fly to the California coastline.

Even though what u say is true....if u use more consistent feats of gladiator. Gotenks strength and speed are not even remotely comparable. And that wasn't a planet busting scan....that was just a barrage of energy beams thrown by gotenks. It probably would have took hundreds of thousands of those beams to destroy the planet. If gotenks wanted to completely destroy earth with one energy beam. He would need TIME to power up. Gladiatior has destroyed planets with a PUNCH. Gotenks doesn't compare. And gotenks doesn't have speed to match gladiator if u use his most consistent feats and not his low end feats

I don't get why you think they need time to do planet+ level attacks. Freiza did it effortlessly with one finger. Kid Buu did it effortlessly with one finger. Obviously the heroes don't go out of their way to blow up planets with ease, but they're on the same level of power and energy projection. There's no "time" needed, no more than their usual attacks. Mortein also linked in this thread a pretty conclusive look at DBZ characters moving at relative speeds that would be close to Gladiator's usual combat speed.

@ghost_rider1 said:

@The_Young_Wolf

@ghost_rider1 said:

@The_Young_Wolf Its not my word against his.....its feats...he showed no PROOF of anything. Authors have stated many things in comics. It doesn't necessarily mean its true. Without proof....its hyperbole. And gladiator wouldn't give him the time to power up for such an attack.

Akira Toriyama created Dragon Ball, so your argument is fundamentally flawed. Dragon Ball wasn't written by "authors", it was written by Akira Toriyama. Toriyama didnt give this in a comic/manga, he said it in Guide books that were created to give extra information on the universe he created. In other words, you have no reason to doubt the word of Toriyama because he has no reason to lie.

Gotenks gotts power up for PLANET BUSTING attacks.

Gallery

Do u think Kallark will stand still and do nothing. Gotenks can't even keep up with him. Because he ALSO has no speed feats to match someone of FTL speed.

Canonball tagged Gladiator. When he had the Uni-power, it took Gladiator 2 minutes to fly to the California coastline.

Even though what u say is true....if u use more consistent feats of gladiator. Gotenks strength and speed are not even remotely comparable. And that wasn't a planet busting scan....that was just a barrage of energy beams thrown by gotenks. It probably would have took hundreds of thousands of those beams to destroy the planet. If gotenks wanted to completely destroy earth with one energy beam. He would need TIME to power up. Gladiatior has destroyed planets with a PUNCH. Gotenks doesn't compare. And gotenks doesn't have speed to match gladiator if u use his most consistent feats and not his low end feats

I don't get why you think they need time to do planet+ level attacks. Freiza did it effortlessly with one finger. Kid Buu did it effortlessly with one finger. Obviously the heroes don't go out of their way to blow up planets with ease, but they're on the same level of power and energy projection. There's no "time" needed, no more than their usual attacks. Mortein also linked in this thread a pretty conclusive look at DBZ characters moving at relative speeds that would be close to Gladiator's usual combat speed.

@czarny_samael666 said:

?

?

@ghost_rider1 said:

@The_Young_Wolf

@ghost_rider1 said:

@The_Young_Wolf Its not my word against his.....its feats...he showed no PROOF of anything. Authors have stated many things in comics. It doesn't necessarily mean its true. Without proof....its hyperbole. And gladiator wouldn't give him the time to power up for such an attack.

Akira Toriyama created Dragon Ball, so your argument is fundamentally flawed. Dragon Ball wasn't written by "authors", it was written by Akira Toriyama. Toriyama didnt give this in a comic/manga, he said it in Guide books that were created to give extra information on the universe he created. In other words, you have no reason to doubt the word of Toriyama because he has no reason to lie.

Gotenks gotts power up for PLANET BUSTING attacks.

Gallery

Do u think Kallark will stand still and do nothing. Gotenks can't even keep up with him. Because he ALSO has no speed feats to match someone of FTL speed.

Canonball tagged Gladiator. When he had the Uni-power, it took Gladiator 2 minutes to fly to the California coastline.

Even though what u say is true....if u use more consistent feats of gladiator. Gotenks strength and speed are not even remotely comparable. And that wasn't a planet busting scan....that was just a barrage of energy beams thrown by gotenks. It probably would have took hundreds of thousands of those beams to destroy the planet. If gotenks wanted to completely destroy earth with one energy beam. He would need TIME to power up. Gladiatior has destroyed planets with a PUNCH. Gotenks doesn't compare. And gotenks doesn't have speed to match gladiator if u use his most consistent feats and not his low end feats

Consistent? I think you mean outdated. I just compared Gladiators modern era feats, and Gotenks is clearly the superior. If you want to delude yourself into thinking Gladiator can still crack planets, then thats you're prerogative., but I;ve shown you he's not at those strength levels any more. You don't have an reason to say Gotenks would take forever destroying a planet. I believe you've already been told that Charging for power is an anime thing, which isn't canon. Freiza destroyed a planet with a point of his finger. Gladiator destroyed a planet with a punch some years ago, and now he struggles to move objects significantly smaller with aid.

. And gotenks doesn't have speed to match gladiator if u use his most consistent feats and not his low end feats

I already showed you that he did, but it seems you've chosen to ignore that. I haven't begun to post feats yet. Such as Gambit getting the better of Gladiator. But you're hard pressed on focusing your argument around feats Gladiator is no longer capable of.

@czarny_samael666 said:

@The_Young_Wolf said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

?

?

What were You trying to prove?

That Gladiatori is no longer cabaple of shaterting plants because he needs help moving objects smaller. That even with the uni power it took him 2 minutes to get to California, which would mean is even slower without it. Sue Richards while empowered with the uni Power, wasn't impressive, yet she was enough to hurt and defeat gladiator.

@ghost_rider1 said:

@Laurcus

@ghost_rider1 said:

@The_Young_Wolf

@Death Certificate said:

Anime =/=Manga

Difference between Nappa & Picclo is that both of them blew up the city and moon. Also frieza didn't blow up namek because he wanted beat Goku with his own. Cell did nothing to prove he could blow up a solar system. Sure his blast could destory more than two planets, but whole solar

Akira Toriyama

"Age 801 - Goku goes missing. He and Vegeta realized they were nearing the end of their prime. Vegeta and Goku mysteriously vanish from the Earth. Years later, explosions on par with supernovas were detected, which were believed to be caused by a battle between Goku and Vegeta."

Translations

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14963

http://dragonball.comgames.de/?forum-showposts-1479-p1

"An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One's personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!"

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22411

Sure his blast could destory more than two planets, but whole solar

"Kili

http://magikarp46.dyndns.org/dragonball/daizenshuu/07/07-046.html

All of this is nothing more than hyperbole. If gohan has the force to push back a beam that had the force to destroy the solar system.....what do u think would have happened to the earth if the force of his aura was greater than a force to destroy a solar system...it means its BS! Not even vegito showed power to destroy a solasr system. So stop wit this nonsense....if they have no feats to back their claim up then it means nothing

Prove that it's hyperbole. The author's statements have much more weight than your opinion.

The bolded part of your post, I don't understand it. Though if you mean what I think you mean, you clearly don't know how ki works in DBZ.

Feats! Feats! Feats! Feats! Feats! Oh.....did I forget to mention feats?! Without feats his statements are nothing more than words. Yes...he is the author and his words do carry SOME weight. But feats carry more weight than statements. U ever heard the sayin..... ACTIONS ARE BETTER THAN WORDS! Well that's true. No one from DBZ has ever displayed that level of poewer....not even super vegito. They have displayed planet level butsting KI attacks...but solar system busting attacks is hyperbole. And like I said earlier...gotenks will have to power up just to do a planet busting attack. And his speed is a non factor cuz gladiator is wayyyyyyyyyyyy faster. Any KI attack he uses won't even hit gladiator. Gladiator can bust planets with his fists and fists alone. Gotenks loses

LOL, if the creator's words only carry SOME weight, how much your words carry? A lot?

It's so stupid ist's already funny. AT imagined a world and some internet boy say that "no, you didn't imagined that way because Cell would have destroy that solar system then, you are wrong about your imagined world"

@Death Certificate: Did you know that Cell is a super computer? Of course he would know how much power it would take to destroy a Solar System and Akira Toriyama`s word>>>>your bias opinion.

@Death Certificate said:

@Dredeuced said:

Concentrated energy. Same reason Odin can OHKO Surfer with a blast the size of a small car or Molecule Man can use a blast powerful enough to slag a hundred million dimensions without messing up an apartment. It's a consistent thing in both comics and manga for blasts of incredible power to not have massive collateral damage.

Difference being that both Odin and Molecule Man have other feats backing that up, Cell has nothing else but a statement. Also that apartment isn't just simple apartment, the beyonder contained a universe in that apartment.

ok, bring me that feat that back up Molecule Man can destroy billions dimentions. i'm excited to see you find it. 3:)

Odin is recognized galaxy buster bring me this feat where he destroy an actual galaxy.

TOAA is recognized the most powerful being in Marvel bring me one feat where he actually prove it.

Beyonder is recognized millions of times more powerful than all the power in the multiverse combined, bring me feat that prove it.

...etc etc can keep going and overflow this page with other examples. and to save you the trouble of looking, you won't find a da£n thing. those facts are all statements. just like Solar System buster.

what you don't understand, or don't want to understand is that : "a fact that is canon, by feats, statement or author registration, is legitimate and undeniable, unless there is a contradiction to make it doubtful"

Cell's power is exponentially massively superior to Frieza at final form, who's massively superior (283 times) to his weakest form which he used to destroy 10x planet. so just by common sense, it's banal if Cell can destroy the solar system. and we have statement in manga confirming that. then we have author confirming that as canon fact.

so we have common sense, canon statement, and canon fact confirming that. and no contradiction to that at all. so any suggestion that it's hyperbol is completly wrong and speculative.

@mypasswordis1234 said:

@ghost_rider1 said:

@Laurcus

@ghost_rider1 said:

@The_Young_Wolf

@Death Certificate said:

Anime =/=Manga

Difference between Nappa & Picclo is that both of them blew up the city and moon. Also frieza didn't blow up namek because he wanted beat Goku with his own. Cell did nothing to prove he could blow up a solar system. Sure his blast could destory more than two planets, but whole solar

Akira Toriyama

"Age 801 - Goku goes missing. He and Vegeta realized they were nearing the end of their prime. Vegeta and Goku mysteriously vanish from the Earth. Years later, explosions on par with supernovas were detected, which were believed to be caused by a battle between Goku and Vegeta."

Translations

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14963

http://dragonball.comgames.de/?forum-showposts-1479-p1

"An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One's personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!"

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22411

Sure his blast could destory more than two planets, but whole solar

"Kili

http://magikarp46.dyndns.org/dragonball/daizenshuu/07/07-046.html

All of this is nothing more than hyperbole. If gohan has the force to push back a beam that had the force to destroy the solar system.....what do u think would have happened to the earth if the force of his aura was greater than a force to destroy a solar system...it means its BS! Not even vegito showed power to destroy a solasr system. So stop wit this nonsense....if they have no feats to back their claim up then it means nothing

Prove that it's hyperbole. The author's statements have much more weight than your opinion.

The bolded part of your post, I don't understand it. Though if you mean what I think you mean, you clearly don't know how ki works in DBZ.

Feats! Feats! Feats! Feats! Feats! Oh.....did I forget to mention feats?! Without feats his statements are nothing more than words. Yes...he is the author and his words do carry SOME weight. But feats carry more weight than statements. U ever heard the sayin..... ACTIONS ARE BETTER THAN WORDS! Well that's true. No one from DBZ has ever displayed that level of poewer....not even super vegito. They have displayed planet level butsting KI attacks...but solar system busting attacks is hyperbole. And like I said earlier...gotenks will have to power up just to do a planet busting attack. And his speed is a non factor cuz gladiator is wayyyyyyyyyyyy faster. Any KI attack he uses won't even hit gladiator. Gladiator can bust planets with his fists and fists alone. Gotenks loses

LOL, if the creator's words only carry SOME weight, how much your words carry? A lot?

It's so stupid ist's already funny. AT imagined a world and some internet boy say that "no, you didn't imagined that way because Cell would have destroy that solar system then, you are wrong about your imagined world"

It is stupid, isn't it? If you have to start arguing , that we shouldn't listen to the what the creator of the series says, it''s hard to say there isn't any bias there. Just give these characters the respect they deserve already, sheesh.

@The_Young_Wolf said:

@mypasswordis1234 said:

@ghost_rider1 said:

@Laurcus

@ghost_rider1 said:

@The_Young_Wolf

@Death Certificate said:

Anime =/=Manga

Difference between Nappa & Picclo is that both of them blew up the city and moon. Also frieza didn't blow up namek because he wanted beat Goku with his own. Cell did nothing to prove he could blow up a solar system. Sure his blast could destory more than two planets, but whole solar

Akira Toriyama

"Age 801 - Goku goes missing. He and Vegeta realized they were nearing the end of their prime. Vegeta and Goku mysteriously vanish from the Earth. Years later, explosions on par with supernovas were detected, which were believed to be caused by a battle between Goku and Vegeta."

Translations

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14963

http://dragonball.comgames.de/?forum-showposts-1479-p1

"An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One's personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!"

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22411

Sure his blast could destory more than two planets, but whole solar

"Kili

http://magikarp46.dyndns.org/dragonball/daizenshuu/07/07-046.html

All of this is nothing more than hyperbole. If gohan has the force to push back a beam that had the force to destroy the solar system.....what do u think would have happened to the earth if the force of his aura was greater than a force to destroy a solar system...it means its BS! Not even vegito showed power to destroy a solasr system. So stop wit this nonsense....if they have no feats to back their claim up then it means nothing

Prove that it's hyperbole. The author's statements have much more weight than your opinion.

The bolded part of your post, I don't understand it. Though if you mean what I think you mean, you clearly don't know how ki works in DBZ.

Feats! Feats! Feats! Feats! Feats! Oh.....did I forget to mention feats?! Without feats his statements are nothing more than words. Yes...he is the author and his words do carry SOME weight. But feats carry more weight than statements. U ever heard the sayin..... ACTIONS ARE BETTER THAN WORDS! Well that's true. No one from DBZ has ever displayed that level of poewer....not even super vegito. They have displayed planet level butsting KI attacks...but solar system busting attacks is hyperbole. And like I said earlier...gotenks will have to power up just to do a planet busting attack. And his speed is a non factor cuz gladiator is wayyyyyyyyyyyy faster. Any KI attack he uses won't even hit gladiator. Gladiator can bust planets with his fists and fists alone. Gotenks loses

LOL, if the creator's words only carry SOME weight, how much your words carry? A lot?

It's so stupid ist's already funny. AT imagined a world and some internet boy say that "no, you didn't imagined that way because Cell would have destroy that solar system then, you are wrong about your imagined world"

It is stupid, isn't it? If you have to start arguing , that we shouldn't listen to the what the creator of the series says, it''s hard to say there isn't any bias there. Just give these characters the respect they deserve already, sheesh.

Yes, remember Omgomgwtfwtf said he always read the same things from dbz fans, and flamings... well, they should accept it(here the SS thing) and wouldn't be flamewar about the dbz again, lol.