Somehow, I feel like people are ignoring the fact that SS3 Goku is strong enough to destroy the universe many times over. At least hundreds, if not thousands of times over if this is after the 10 year time skip.
And we all know that episode where goku blew up a unive-- oh wait that never happen.
But lets take every statement from dragonball in a extremely literal term to make up for feats they don't have.
Rawr. :D
Shenron: I'mm fire ma super duper UNIVERSE destorying blast
*Gogeta kicks it into space and the attack only gives off the explosion of a planet*
Gogeta:You used minus and I used negative therefore I reduced to power by half
Gohan: But father even if reduce the power by a half, the explosion still should have been big enough to destory an entire galaxy, therefore Shenron must overestimated the power output of his attack.
I already explained to you I was trying to do with Buckshot sone and debate for the loser and failed but yet you continue to troll me every chance you get.
@Laurcus: Yes, bio-energy is the same as ki. The heck do you think it means lol? And keep in mind, in the English dub for the anime, the word ki is always replaced by energy.
That was a brain fart moment on me lol.
And I don't care that Cell hasn't actually done it. He had no reason to do so. Now if he tried and failed, then that would be something. Character statements and power levels mean a lot to me though.
It does matter if he done it or not how can you claim Cell to be a universe buster when he has zero feats to suggest it. I call hyperbole because Cell has no feats to suggest so. I ones recall superman saying he could bench press Earth in a non joking manner now do you believe that? No because he has not shown anywhere near that kind of power.
DC and DBZ have entirely different methods of storytelling. And Superman's power doesn't vary like a DBZ character's power does. Remember this, if a DBZ character doesn't die from using an attack, they didn't use full power. Unless proven wrong, character statements are true.
In the case of Superman, I would believe that he had the strength to bench press the Earth if he had no feats that have definitively shown that he could. But in the case of Superman, he essentially has negative feats. He has done things, (or rather, failed to do things) that prove that statement wrong.
To apply this to DBZ. Moori would be wrong if Cell attempted to destroy a star/galaxy/universe, and failed, and then said something like, "Darn! I put all I had into that attack and it still wasn't enough to destroy everything!"
@Death Certificate The blast was focused, not widened. Cell's solar system destroying blast was smaller than Piccolo's attack in the original Dragon Ball that he used to turn the entire WMAT island into a desert. But power level like 900 Piccolo > Super Perfect Cell, right?
Also, Kamehameha Waves are kind of weird. Sometimes they explode and do a retarded amount of collateral damage, (like the explosion in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber when Gohan went Super Saiyan and blocked Goku's Kamehameha Wave) and other times they just fizzle out. Gohan's Kamehameha Wave against Cell was shot into space, where it fizzled out without exploding.
I already explained to you I was trying to do with Buckshot sone and debate for the loser and failed but yet you continue to troll me every chance you get.
I already explained to you I was trying to do with Buckshot sone and debate for the loser and failed but yet you continue to troll me every chance you get.
Flagged for calling me a troll.
No I said you continue to troll me I never called you a troll so..... think again.
I already explained to you I was trying to do with Buckshot sone and debate for the loser and failed but yet you continue to troll me every chance you get.
Flagged for calling me a troll.
No I said you continue to troll me I never called you a troll so..... think again.
You said "you continue to troll me" but who trolls someone? a troll. You call me a troll because of you think my actions are depicted as trolling.
@Death Certificate You can't call it a hyperbolic statement when characters that were hundreds of thousands, (possibly more) of times weaker were blowing up moons and planets with very little effort. And that's probably the only response you're going to get from me. I generally ignore people that don't take character statements and power scaling seriously when it comes to DBZ.
Why is it that whenever any other fictional universe, regardless of the manga or comic, we ask for feats and go by what is shown, yet DBZ is an expection.?
@Death Certificate: DBZ has a system of measuring power levels that allows people to scale and go on implied power. The Ginyu Force was stated to have power levels higher than Saiyan Saga Vegeta and are therefore strong enough to bust planets, and their abilities increase drastic amounts even though they aren't totally elaborated on.
I already explained to you I was trying to do with Buckshot sone and debate for the loser and failed but yet you continue to troll me every chance you get.
Flagged for calling me a troll.
No I said you continue to troll me I never called you a troll so..... think again.
You said "you continue to troll me" but who trolls someone? a troll. You call me a troll because of you think my actions are depicted as trolling.
I never called you a troll I said "you continue to troll me". I have been trolled by people who were not trolls before. Besides you are trolling me you continue to bash me over some thread I already explained why I was doing it yet you bring it up every chance you get. You always use personal attacks so yes my friend you are trolling me.
@Death Certificate You can't call it a hyperbolic statement when characters that were hundreds of thousands, (possibly more) of times weaker were blowing up moons and planets with very little effort. And that's probably the only response you're going to get from me. I generally ignore people that don't take character statements and power scaling seriously when it comes to DBZ.
Why is it that whenever any other fictional universe, regardless of the manga or comic, we ask for feats and go by what is shown, yet DBZ is an expection.?
Because powerlevel is a fundamental rule in DBZ, and without it nothing makes sense.
Think about if it was only feats then Frieza>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ Vegito, Goku, Cell, Majin Buu. Because Frieza had better feats.
No that is ridiculous, powerlevels and statements define who is stronger in the DBZ universe.
@Death Certificate You can't call it a hyperbolic statement when characters that were hundreds of thousands, (possibly more) of times weaker were blowing up moons and planets with very little effort. And that's probably the only response you're going to get from me. I generally ignore people that don't take character statements and power scaling seriously when it comes to DBZ.
Why is it that whenever any other fictional universe, regardless of the manga or comic, we ask for feats and go by what is shown, yet DBZ is an expection.?
Because by raw feats, (ignoring character vs character feats) First Form Frieza is the most powerful being in the series. Despite 80 bazillion other things contradicting that. DBZ is an exception because power in that series is measured much differently than in comics and other anime. Basically, DBZ has all of these other rules that invalidate using just raw feats.
If First Form Frieza blows up a planet effortlessly, but fights evenly with a weak character, and then transforms saying he is only using 1% of his power, (and this is later confirmed by an outside source via an exact power reading) and he starts curbstomping everyone, then how many planets can 100% Final Form Frieza destroy?
@Death Certificate: DBZ has a system of measuring power levels that allows people to scale and go on implied power. The Ginyu Force was stated to have power levels higher than Saiyan Saga Vegeta and are therefore strong enough to bust planets, and their abilities increase drastic amounts even though they aren't totally elaborated on.
Feats aren't always relied on.
The point is when was it ever implied since, character A power level is 100 hundred and can buts a moon that means character B with the power of 200 can destroy 2 moons, It was never stated to be that way yet every one acts as if it is.
Somehow, I feel like people are ignoring the fact that SS3 Goku is strong enough to destroy the universe many times over. At least hundreds, if not thousands of times over if this is after the 10 year time skip.
No he can't,Goku is nowhere near a Universe buster.....
Not sure why you bolded and enlarged an entire post...
Anywho, yeah, he is. Elder Moori stated in episode 156 that Cell possesses enough bio-energy to destroy the universe. And I can prove that by the end of the series, Goku is at least 160k times stronger than Cell.
That's just Hyperbole Cell has shown nothing close to destroying a Universe, the best feat he has is stating he could blow up the planet. Note: That is just the way I post it is my signature style
That was not hyperbole. Moori stated it, Dende then questioned him saying, " no way the entire universe?" and Moori said, "yes, I'm afraid so". It was a direct character statement from someone that can sense energy, and it was confirmed when another character questioned it. And Cell didn't state that he could blow up a planet, he stated that he had gathered enough energy to destroy not only the planet, but the solar system as well.
DBZ characters can often do a lot more than they show, as they rarely use more than a fraction of their power on any one attack, and even when they do the blast is typically focused, not spread for maximum devastation.
I don't know what you're watching no where in any manga does any character say Cell can destroy a universe. He says he can destroy a solar system.
Later on when Goku is fighting Yakon, King Dabura says that ssj Goku only has enough energy to destroy 10-40 planets, which is confirmed in the Super Exciting Guide. That's only solar system-busting at best and even if you calculate his other ssj forms it's still no where near galaxy-busting let alone universe-busting.
It's stated in the anime, as I said, episode 156 to be precise. And how does the SEG confirm Dabura's statement? What, specifically does it say? And Cell does not state that he can destroy a solar system, he states that he has gathered enough energy to destroy the solar system as well as the planet. Gathered implies that it was the current energy level of his attack, not his total energy.
And fyi, Kid Buu destroyed galaxies. Stated in episode 219 by Supreme Kai, with pictures to go along with it.
Edit: Ah, I think I see. You're going off what Daizenshuu 7 said about 200-300 kilis being enough to destroy 1-2 planets. And then extrapolating from there that the 4000 kilis shown by Babidi's device is Goku's maximum.
Well, that's clearly wrong, and here's why. Power reading devices have repeatedly shown to be fooled by the Z Warriors abilities. Power level appears to go down when suppressed, and up when a big move is used. Dabura was not even remotely scared that Goku had 4000 kilis of energy, despite the fact that him and Gohan were virtually even. And at that point in the series, Goku was MUCH stronger than Gohan. And I can back that up with plenty of facts if you'd like. I think it's fairly obvious that they didn't get an accurate reading on Goku's power level, because he did not need to go to his maximum against Yakon.
When I said that cell stated he could destroy a solar system I meant with one attack saying he could destroy a solar system with his entire energy is just an idiotic statement seeing as how he'd have to blow himself up in order to accomplish that feat.
Goku did have to use his full power against Yakon, he powered up all the way in order to "overheat" Yakon because he was absorbing Gokus power.
How in the hell are you going to take something(the Daizenshuu 7) that the creator of the series confirmed himself and call it wrong. That's just straight up BS, you can't call Akira Toriyama wrong if he says ssj Goku could only destroy(one shot) 10-40 planets then that's fact, everything you've been talking about is just theory. You cannot put yourself above the writer and call him a liar it doesn't work like that.
And if Moori said cell could destroy the entire universe then it was filler meaning it's not canon and I promise you it wasn't stated in the Manga which is the only thing that really counts.
Somehow, I feel like people are ignoring the fact that SS3 Goku is strong enough to destroy the universe many times over. At least hundreds, if not thousands of times over if this is after the 10 year time skip.
No he can't,Goku is nowhere near a Universe buster.....
Not sure why you bolded and enlarged an entire post...
Anywho, yeah, he is. Elder Moori stated in episode 156 that Cell possesses enough bio-energy to destroy the universe. And I can prove that by the end of the series, Goku is at least 160k times stronger than Cell.
That's just Hyperbole Cell has shown nothing close to destroying a Universe, the best feat he has is stating he could blow up the planet. Note: That is just the way I post it is my signature style
That was not hyperbole. Moori stated it, Dende then questioned him saying, " no way the entire universe?" and Moori said, "yes, I'm afraid so". It was a direct character statement from someone that can sense energy, and it was confirmed when another character questioned it. And Cell didn't state that he could blow up a planet, he stated that he had gathered enough energy to destroy not only the planet, but the solar system as well.
DBZ characters can often do a lot more than they show, as they rarely use more than a fraction of their power on any one attack, and even when they do the blast is typically focused, not spread for maximum devastation.
I don't know what you're watching no where in any manga does any character say Cell can destroy a universe. He says he can destroy a solar system.
Later on when Goku is fighting Yakon, King Dabura says that ssj Goku only has enough energy to destroy 10-40 planets, which is confirmed in the Super Exciting Guide. That's only solar system-busting at best and even if you calculate his other ssj forms it's still no where near galaxy-busting let alone universe-busting.
It's stated in the anime, as I said, episode 156 to be precise. And how does the SEG confirm Dabura's statement? What, specifically does it say? And Cell does not state that he can destroy a solar system, he states that he has gathered enough energy to destroy the solar system as well as the planet. Gathered implies that it was the current energy level of his attack, not his total energy.
And fyi, Kid Buu destroyed galaxies. Stated in episode 219 by Supreme Kai, with pictures to go along with it.
Edit: Ah, I think I see. You're going off what Daizenshuu 7 said about 200-300 kilis being enough to destroy 1-2 planets. And then extrapolating from there that the 4000 kilis shown by Babidi's device is Goku's maximum.
Well, that's clearly wrong, and here's why. Power reading devices have repeatedly shown to be fooled by the Z Warriors abilities. Power level appears to go down when suppressed, and up when a big move is used. Dabura was not even remotely scared that Goku had 4000 kilis of energy, despite the fact that him and Gohan were virtually even. And at that point in the series, Goku was MUCH stronger than Gohan. And I can back that up with plenty of facts if you'd like. I think it's fairly obvious that they didn't get an accurate reading on Goku's power level, because he did not need to go to his maximum against Yakon.
When I said that cell stated he could destroy a solar system I meant with one attack saying he could destroy a solar system with his entire energy is just an idiotic statement seeing as how he'd have to blow himself up in order to accomplish that feat.
Goku did have to use his full power against Yakon, he powered up all the way in order to "overheat" Yakon because he was absorbing Gokus power.
How in the hell are you going to take something(the Daizenshuu 7) that the creator of the series confirmed himself and call it wrong. That's just straight up BS, you can't call Akira Toriyama wrong if he says ssj Goku could only destroy(one shot) 10-40 planets then that's fact, everything you've been talking about is just theory. You cannot put yourself above the writer and call him a liar it doesn't work like that.
And if Moori said cell could destroy the entire universe then it was filler meaning it's not canon and I promise you it wasn't stated in the Manga which is the only thing that really counts.
@Death Certificate: DBZ has a system of measuring power levels that allows people to scale and go on implied power. The Ginyu Force was stated to have power levels higher than Saiyan Saga Vegeta and are therefore strong enough to bust planets, and their abilities increase drastic amounts even though they aren't totally elaborated on.
Feats aren't always relied on.
The point is when was it ever implied since, character A power level is 100 hundred and can buts a moon that means character B with the power of 200 can destroy 2 moons, It was never stated to be that way yet every one acts as if it is.
So I guess someone with a 200 powerlevel blows up less then someone with 100. uh huh
@Death Certificate: DBZ has a system of measuring power levels that allows people to scale and go on implied power. The Ginyu Force was stated to have power levels higher than Saiyan Saga Vegeta and are therefore strong enough to bust planets, and their abilities increase drastic amounts even though they aren't totally elaborated on.
Feats aren't always relied on.
The point is when was it ever implied since, character A power level is 100 hundred and can buts a moon that means character B with the power of 200 can destroy 2 moons, It was never stated to be that way yet every one acts as if it is.
So I guess someone with a 200 powerlevel blows up less then someone with 100. uh huh
No I am implying that character B is stronger then character A but we do not know exactly how much it is just speculation....
Somehow, I feel like people are ignoring the fact that SS3 Goku is strong enough to destroy the universe many times over. At least hundreds, if not thousands of times over if this is after the 10 year time skip.
No he can't,Goku is nowhere near a Universe buster.....
Not sure why you bolded and enlarged an entire post...
Anywho, yeah, he is. Elder Moori stated in episode 156 that Cell possesses enough bio-energy to destroy the universe. And I can prove that by the end of the series, Goku is at least 160k times stronger than Cell.
That's just Hyperbole Cell has shown nothing close to destroying a Universe, the best feat he has is stating he could blow up the planet. Note: That is just the way I post it is my signature style
That was not hyperbole. Moori stated it, Dende then questioned him saying, " no way the entire universe?" and Moori said, "yes, I'm afraid so". It was a direct character statement from someone that can sense energy, and it was confirmed when another character questioned it. And Cell didn't state that he could blow up a planet, he stated that he had gathered enough energy to destroy not only the planet, but the solar system as well.
DBZ characters can often do a lot more than they show, as they rarely use more than a fraction of their power on any one attack, and even when they do the blast is typically focused, not spread for maximum devastation.
I don't know what you're watching no where in any manga does any character say Cell can destroy a universe. He says he can destroy a solar system.
Later on when Goku is fighting Yakon, King Dabura says that ssj Goku only has enough energy to destroy 10-40 planets, which is confirmed in the Super Exciting Guide. That's only solar system-busting at best and even if you calculate his other ssj forms it's still no where near galaxy-busting let alone universe-busting.
It's stated in the anime, as I said, episode 156 to be precise. And how does the SEG confirm Dabura's statement? What, specifically does it say? And Cell does not state that he can destroy a solar system, he states that he has gathered enough energy to destroy the solar system as well as the planet. Gathered implies that it was the current energy level of his attack, not his total energy.
And fyi, Kid Buu destroyed galaxies. Stated in episode 219 by Supreme Kai, with pictures to go along with it.
Edit: Ah, I think I see. You're going off what Daizenshuu 7 said about 200-300 kilis being enough to destroy 1-2 planets. And then extrapolating from there that the 4000 kilis shown by Babidi's device is Goku's maximum.
Well, that's clearly wrong, and here's why. Power reading devices have repeatedly shown to be fooled by the Z Warriors abilities. Power level appears to go down when suppressed, and up when a big move is used. Dabura was not even remotely scared that Goku had 4000 kilis of energy, despite the fact that him and Gohan were virtually even. And at that point in the series, Goku was MUCH stronger than Gohan. And I can back that up with plenty of facts if you'd like. I think it's fairly obvious that they didn't get an accurate reading on Goku's power level, because he did not need to go to his maximum against Yakon.
When I said that cell stated he could destroy a solar system I meant with one attack saying he could destroy a solar system with his entire energy is just an idiotic statement seeing as how he'd have to blow himself up in order to accomplish that feat.
Goku did have to use his full power against Yakon, he powered up all the way in order to "overheat" Yakon because he was absorbing Gokus power.
How in the hell are you going to take something(the Daizenshuu 7) that the creator of the series confirmed himself and call it wrong. That's just straight up BS, you can't call Akira Toriyama wrong if he says ssj Goku could only destroy(one shot) 10-40 planets then that's fact, everything you've been talking about is just theory. You cannot put yourself above the writer and call him a liar it doesn't work like that.
And if Moori said cell could destroy the entire universe then it was filler meaning it's not canon and I promise you it wasn't stated in the Manga which is the only thing that really counts.
Okay, stop saying that Daizenshuu 7 says that Goku can only destroy 20 planets, it doesn't say that, you're trying to twist what it says for your own ends. All it says is that 200-300 kili = blowing up 1-2 planets. What is in question is not the power of 200-300 kili, but the validity of Goku's power reading, which Daizenshu 7 doesn't comment on. And I take everything in the anime as fact. If you don't, that's fine, but we're not gonna be able to have anything close to a reasonable debate if that's the case. I have not called Toriyama a liar, or gone against anything said in any official DBZ media source.
And technically, you should regard Daizenshuu 7 as the same level of canon as anime filler. You do know it was written by Toriyama's assistants, not Toriyama himself, right? Basically, he had about the same level of involvement in that as he did in anime filler, probably a little less.
Note, I consider Daizenshuu 7 to be canon. I'm just saying your stance is a contradictory one.
Also, they totally took Goku's power reading after he started feeding Yakon, meaning Goku had already been drained of some energy. But even so, Goku clearly didn't go anywhere near full power, because he wasn't even breathing hard after he killed Yakon. So yeah, not full power, therefore, inaccurate reading.
Somehow, I feel like people are ignoring the fact that SS3 Goku is strong enough to destroy the universe many times over. At least hundreds, if not thousands of times over if this is after the 10 year time skip.
No he can't,Goku is nowhere near a Universe buster.....
Not sure why you bolded and enlarged an entire post...
Anywho, yeah, he is. Elder Moori stated in episode 156 that Cell possesses enough bio-energy to destroy the universe. And I can prove that by the end of the series, Goku is at least 160k times stronger than Cell.
That's just Hyperbole Cell has shown nothing close to destroying a Universe, the best feat he has is stating he could blow up the planet. Note: That is just the way I post it is my signature style
That was not hyperbole. Moori stated it, Dende then questioned him saying, " no way the entire universe?" and Moori said, "yes, I'm afraid so". It was a direct character statement from someone that can sense energy, and it was confirmed when another character questioned it. And Cell didn't state that he could blow up a planet, he stated that he had gathered enough energy to destroy not only the planet, but the solar system as well.
DBZ characters can often do a lot more than they show, as they rarely use more than a fraction of their power on any one attack, and even when they do the blast is typically focused, not spread for maximum devastation.
I don't know what you're watching no where in any manga does any character say Cell can destroy a universe. He says he can destroy a solar system.
Later on when Goku is fighting Yakon, King Dabura says that ssj Goku only has enough energy to destroy 10-40 planets, which is confirmed in the Super Exciting Guide. That's only solar system-busting at best and even if you calculate his other ssj forms it's still no where near galaxy-busting let alone universe-busting.
It's stated in the anime, as I said, episode 156 to be precise. And how does the SEG confirm Dabura's statement? What, specifically does it say? And Cell does not state that he can destroy a solar system, he states that he has gathered enough energy to destroy the solar system as well as the planet. Gathered implies that it was the current energy level of his attack, not his total energy.
And fyi, Kid Buu destroyed galaxies. Stated in episode 219 by Supreme Kai, with pictures to go along with it.
Edit: Ah, I think I see. You're going off what Daizenshuu 7 said about 200-300 kilis being enough to destroy 1-2 planets. And then extrapolating from there that the 4000 kilis shown by Babidi's device is Goku's maximum.
Well, that's clearly wrong, and here's why. Power reading devices have repeatedly shown to be fooled by the Z Warriors abilities. Power level appears to go down when suppressed, and up when a big move is used. Dabura was not even remotely scared that Goku had 4000 kilis of energy, despite the fact that him and Gohan were virtually even. And at that point in the series, Goku was MUCH stronger than Gohan. And I can back that up with plenty of facts if you'd like. I think it's fairly obvious that they didn't get an accurate reading on Goku's power level, because he did not need to go to his maximum against Yakon.
When I said that cell stated he could destroy a solar system I meant with one attack saying he could destroy a solar system with his entire energy is just an idiotic statement seeing as how he'd have to blow himself up in order to accomplish that feat.
Goku did have to use his full power against Yakon, he powered up all the way in order to "overheat" Yakon because he was absorbing Gokus power.
How in the hell are you going to take something(the Daizenshuu 7) that the creator of the series confirmed himself and call it wrong. That's just straight up BS, you can't call Akira Toriyama wrong if he says ssj Goku could only destroy(one shot) 10-40 planets then that's fact, everything you've been talking about is just theory. You cannot put yourself above the writer and call him a liar it doesn't work like that.
And if Moori said cell could destroy the entire universe then it was filler meaning it's not canon and I promise you it wasn't stated in the Manga which is the only thing that really counts.
QFT
How am I trolling when what i'm saying has been confirmed by the creator of the series here:
@Laurcus: What you're saying is that you think the Daizenshuu 7 is wrong about Gokus Kili level but what you're forgetting is that it was confirmed by Akira Toriyama himself so it isn't wrong.
@Death Certificate: DBZ has a system of measuring power levels that allows people to scale and go on implied power. The Ginyu Force was stated to have power levels higher than Saiyan Saga Vegeta and are therefore strong enough to bust planets, and their abilities increase drastic amounts even though they aren't totally elaborated on.
Feats aren't always relied on.
The point is when was it ever implied since, character A power level is 100 hundred and can buts a moon that means character B with the power of 200 can destroy 2 moons, It was never stated to be that way yet every one acts as if it is.
So I guess someone with a 200 powerlevel blows up less then someone with 100. uh huh
No I am implying that character B is stronger then character A but we do not know exactly how much it is just speculation....
I get what you're saying.. You're talking about the returns being different at different levels. To use a mathematical example, at PL 100 x=8, but at PL 200 x=7. Well, power levels have actually been shown to go the other way, the higher power level becomes, the more it's worth. It's called increasing returns. It's how Goku with a PL of ~900 can go 245 MPH but with a PL of 8000 can go 13018 MPH.
So if you want to calculate power levels non-linearly, it actually goes the opposite way of what you're thinking, which would mean by the end of DBZ, Goku could destroy way way way way way more than the 160k universes I've stated. You'd probably need to invent names for powers of 10 past Ducentillion to even put a number to it. Because power levels have shwon to have massive increasing returns, because 36 Humans does not equal a moon bust.
@BlueComet It says Goku's energy is over 3000 kili. Which Dabura also states in the anime, as he says it's 4000. 4000 > 3000. Didn't tell me anything I didn't already know. And the creator of the series did not say that, Daizenshuu 7 was written by his assistants. He had a little less involvement in that than he did in the anime filler. Oh wait, excuse me. Dabura said a kili of over 4000 couldn't defeat him, Goku was measured at 3000. That actually supports what I've been saying even more, as Daizenshuu 7 said he has a kili of over 3000.
Somehow, I feel like people are ignoring the fact that SS3 Goku is strong enough to destroy the universe many times over. At least hundreds, if not thousands of times over if this is after the 10 year time skip.
No he can't,Goku is nowhere near a Universe buster.....
Not sure why you bolded and enlarged an entire post...
Anywho, yeah, he is. Elder Moori stated in episode 156 that Cell possesses enough bio-energy to destroy the universe. And I can prove that by the end of the series, Goku is at least 160k times stronger than Cell.
That's just Hyperbole Cell has shown nothing close to destroying a Universe, the best feat he has is stating he could blow up the planet. Note: That is just the way I post it is my signature style
That was not hyperbole. Moori stated it, Dende then questioned him saying, " no way the entire universe?" and Moori said, "yes, I'm afraid so". It was a direct character statement from someone that can sense energy, and it was confirmed when another character questioned it. And Cell didn't state that he could blow up a planet, he stated that he had gathered enough energy to destroy not only the planet, but the solar system as well.
DBZ characters can often do a lot more than they show, as they rarely use more than a fraction of their power on any one attack, and even when they do the blast is typically focused, not spread for maximum devastation.
I don't know what you're watching no where in any manga does any character say Cell can destroy a universe. He says he can destroy a solar system.
Later on when Goku is fighting Yakon, King Dabura says that ssj Goku only has enough energy to destroy 10-40 planets, which is confirmed in the Super Exciting Guide. That's only solar system-busting at best and even if you calculate his other ssj forms it's still no where near galaxy-busting let alone universe-busting.
It's stated in the anime, as I said, episode 156 to be precise. And how does the SEG confirm Dabura's statement? What, specifically does it say? And Cell does not state that he can destroy a solar system, he states that he has gathered enough energy to destroy the solar system as well as the planet. Gathered implies that it was the current energy level of his attack, not his total energy.
And fyi, Kid Buu destroyed galaxies. Stated in episode 219 by Supreme Kai, with pictures to go along with it.
Edit: Ah, I think I see. You're going off what Daizenshuu 7 said about 200-300 kilis being enough to destroy 1-2 planets. And then extrapolating from there that the 4000 kilis shown by Babidi's device is Goku's maximum.
Well, that's clearly wrong, and here's why. Power reading devices have repeatedly shown to be fooled by the Z Warriors abilities. Power level appears to go down when suppressed, and up when a big move is used. Dabura was not even remotely scared that Goku had 4000 kilis of energy, despite the fact that him and Gohan were virtually even. And at that point in the series, Goku was MUCH stronger than Gohan. And I can back that up with plenty of facts if you'd like. I think it's fairly obvious that they didn't get an accurate reading on Goku's power level, because he did not need to go to his maximum against Yakon.
When I said that cell stated he could destroy a solar system I meant with one attack saying he could destroy a solar system with his entire energy is just an idiotic statement seeing as how he'd have to blow himself up in order to accomplish that feat.
Goku did have to use his full power against Yakon, he powered up all the way in order to "overheat" Yakon because he was absorbing Gokus power.
How in the hell are you going to take something(the Daizenshuu 7) that the creator of the series confirmed himself and call it wrong. That's just straight up BS, you can't call Akira Toriyama wrong if he says ssj Goku could only destroy(one shot) 10-40 planets then that's fact, everything you've been talking about is just theory. You cannot put yourself above the writer and call him a liar it doesn't work like that.
And if Moori said cell could destroy the entire universe then it was filler meaning it's not canon and I promise you it wasn't stated in the Manga which is the only thing that really counts.
QFT
How am I trolling when what i'm saying has been confirmed by the creator of the series here:
So why does everyone think that 3000 kili's is Goku max SSJ level?
He never powered up and just turned SSJ to show off his light. SSJ is a 50x multiplier, for all we know he could of been resting at a low level at base.
Furthermore this would imply that 200-300 kili's is Frieza first form powerlevel. I'm 100% sure that Full powered SSJ Majin Buu Saga Goku is way more then 10x more powerful then First form Frieza..... seeing how 1% Frieza had PL's in the millions and his first form has PL in the 530,000.
So why does everyone think that 3000 kili's is Goku max SSJ level?
He never powered up and just turned SSJ to show off his light. SSJ is a 50x multiplier, for all we know he could of been resting at a low level at base.
Furthermore this would imply that 200-300 kili's is Frieza first form powerlevel. I'm 100% sure that Full powered SSJ Majin Buu Saga Goku is way more then 10x more powerful then First form Frieza..... seeing how 1% Frieza had PL's in the millions and his first form has PL in the 530,000.
So why does everyone think that 3000 kili's is Goku max SSJ level?
He never powered up and just turned SSJ to show off his light. SSJ is a 50x multiplier, for all we know he could of been resting at a low level at base.
Furthermore this would imply that 200-300 kili's is Frieza first form powerlevel. I'm 100% sure that Full powered SSJ Majin Buu Saga Goku is way more then 10x more powerful then First form Frieza..... seeing how 1% Frieza had PL's in the millions and his first form has PL in the 530,000.
@Laurcus: It doesn't tell you how much over though, what you're doing is assuming it's actually high enough to support universe-busting which is a total troll move.
I never said Toriyama wrote the Daizenshuu 7 but he did confirm it which is alot more than he did with filler scenes.
@Laurcus: I get what you're saying.. You're talking about the returns being different at different levels. To use a mathematical example, at PL 100 x=8, but at PL 200 x=7. Well, power levels have actually been shown to go the other way, the higher power level becomes, the more it's worth. It's called increasing returns. It's how Goku with a PL of ~900 can go 245 MPH but with a PL of 8000 can go 13018 MPH. So if you want to calculate power levels non-linearly, it actually goes the opposite way of what you're thinking, which would mean by the end of DBZ, Goku could destroy way way way way way more than the 160k universes I've stated. You'd probably need to invent names for powers of 10 past Ducentillion to even put a number to it. Because power levels have shwon to have massive increasing returns, because 36 Humans does not equal a moon bust.
That's my point with power scaling it should not be taken literal because we do not know exactly how to scale it. Power scaling was not made for you to scale them,but just to show the difference in power that why I prefer feats over powerscaling.
Note: Even if I did use power scaling Goku is still nowhere near a Universe buster. The Universe contains trillions of Galaxies which in turn contains billions of stars, that is not even including the Voids in between Galaxy clusters with this being said even with power scaling he is still nowhere near a Universe buster.
So why does everyone think that 3000 kili's is Goku max SSJ level?
He never powered up and just turned SSJ to show off his light. SSJ is a 50x multiplier, for all we know he could of been resting at a low level at base.
Furthermore this would imply that 200-300 kili's is Frieza first form powerlevel. I'm 100% sure that Full powered SSJ Majin Buu Saga Goku is way more then 10x more powerful then First form Frieza..... seeing how 1% Frieza had PL's in the millions and his first form has PL in the 530,000.
Thank you XImpossibruX. You are a bro. That's what I've been trying to say the whole time! Based on previous power readings, the 3000 kilis one was obviously wrong. The only factor that could make it wrong is the one you just described. Goku wasn't at max power.
@Laurcus: It doesn't tell you how much over though, what you're doing is assuming it's actually high enough to support universe-busting which is a total troll move.
I never said Toriyama wrote the Daizenshuu 7 but he did confirm it which is alot more than he did with filler scenes.
You know he actually wrote a lot of filler scenes? And he even referenced them in the special, "Heya! Son Goku and his Friends Return!". When asked for an example of a filler scene that he wrote, he said that it was his idea to have Goku eat the clouds on Snake Way. Goku is also driving a car during said special, and the only time when Goku is ever seen driving is in filler, and he gets his license in filler.
And Toriyama didn't confirm that Daizenshuu 7 is official. No more so than he has done with anime filler.
Also, don't call me a troll. That's uncalled for poo slinging. You're also strawmanning me. I will now explain what my actual argument is. I am not saying that Goku's kili being over 3000 is evidence that he can bust a universe. I am using that as evidence to dismiss that as a cap to Goku's power. I am saying that reading tells us nothing.
My evidence that Goku can bust a universe is that Moori stated Perfect Cell can.
@dccomicsrule2011 Actually, it wouldn't be too difficult to figure out exactly how power levels scale. We have some nice data points with Roshi blowing up the moon, a normal Human being 5, and Goku lifting a car at 10. If I wasn't so lazy I could just write it up as a story problem and walk to the community college less than a block from my house and ask one of the math instructors there to solve it. Either way though, it's easy enough to see a pattern without knowing the exact specific formula. The value clearly scales upward, which means linear scaling actually lowballs DBZ characters. In other words, you're arguing for my side.
So why does everyone think that 3000 kili's is Goku max SSJ level?
He never powered up and just turned SSJ to show off his light. SSJ is a 50x multiplier, for all we know he could of been resting at a low level at base.
Furthermore this would imply that 200-300 kili's is Frieza first form powerlevel. I'm 100% sure that Full powered SSJ Majin Buu Saga Goku is way more then 10x more powerful then First form Frieza..... seeing how 1% Frieza had PL's in the millions and his first form has PL in the 530,000.
Thank you XImpossibruX. You are a bro. That's what I've been trying to say the whole time! Based on previous power readings, the 3000 kilis one was obviously wrong. The only factor that could make it wrong is the one you just described. Goku wasn't at max power.
Yes, he was. He powered up in order to overheat Yakon remember. Even so saying his power level was read wrong when it was later confirmed by Toriyama himself is BS. You can try to argue that even after powering up against Yakon he still wasn't at full power but the fact still remains that it was confirmed.
"Over 3000 kili" is the only confirmed number we're given. Yes, it is over 3000 but there's no way of knowing for sure by how much so anything said about how "Goku was actually way way way way stronger" is just speculation.
The Daizenshuu 7 was approved by Toriyama. It's common knowledge and I know that you know it as we've had a conversation about it in the past.
Even if Gohan blocked the attack, the amount of energy would be too big for the earth to contain.
Not necessarily true.
Now I'm not agreeing with DBZ hyperbole, but it's possible that the earth still could have remained intact with Gohan blocking it. After all, remember when Pre-retcon Molecule Man tried to kill Pre-retcon Beyonder? He fired a blast that could have destroyed several billion dimensions and yet the living room they were in was fine.
So why does everyone think that 3000 kili's is Goku max SSJ level?
He never powered up and just turned SSJ to show off his light. SSJ is a 50x multiplier, for all we know he could of been resting at a low level at base.
Furthermore this would imply that 200-300 kili's is Frieza first form powerlevel. I'm 100% sure that Full powered SSJ Majin Buu Saga Goku is way more then 10x more powerful then First form Frieza..... seeing how 1% Frieza had PL's in the millions and his first form has PL in the 530,000.
Thank you XImpossibruX. You are a bro. That's what I've been trying to say the whole time! Based on previous power readings, the 3000 kilis one was obviously wrong. The only factor that could make it wrong is the one you just described. Goku wasn't at max power.
Yes, he was. He powered up in order to overheat Yakon remember. Even so saying his power level was read wrong when it was later confirmed by Toriyama himself is BS. You can try to argue that even after powering up against Yakon he still wasn't at full power but the fact still remains......................................................... ^
"Over 3000 kili" is the only confirmed number we're given. Yes, it is over 3000 but there's no way of knowing for sure by how much so anything said about how "Goku was actually way way way way stronger" is just speculation.
Okay, first off, don't quote me out of context, that actually pisses me off. When I said, "Goku was actually way way way way stronger" I was not in any way talking about our argument, the 3000 kili reading, or even trying to make a point. I was having a casual conversation about the nature of increasing returns in math, which is not related to this discussion.
I didn't say his power level was read wrong. I said that it was inaccurate, for the same reason that scouter readings are inaccurate. And no, he was just going Super Saiyan to emit light. He didn't go full power. And once again, I am not saying that Goku can bust a universe because he has over 3000 kili of energy. I am saying that does nothing to establish a real upper limit for his power.
@Laurcus: It doesn't tell you how much over though, what you're doing is assuming it's actually high enough to support universe-busting which is a total troll move.
I never said Toriyama wrote the Daizenshuu 7 but he did confirm it which is alot more than he did with filler scenes.
You know he actually wrote a lot of filler scenes? And he even referenced them in the special, "Heya! Son Goku and his Friends Return!". When asked for an example of a filler scene that he wrote, he said that it was his idea to have Goku eat the clouds on Snake Way. Goku is also driving a car during said special, and the only time when Goku is ever seen driving is in filler, and he gets his license in filler.
And Toriyama didn't confirm that Daizenshuu 7 is official. No more so than he has done with anime filler.
Also, don't call me a troll. That's uncalled for poo slinging. You're also strawmanning me. I will now explain what my actual argument is. I am not saying that Goku's kili being over 3000 is evidence that he can bust a universe. I am using that as evidence to dismiss that as a cap to Goku's power. I am saying that reading tells us nothing.
My evidence that Goku can bust a universe is that Moori stated Perfect Cell can.
@dccomicsrule2011 Actually, it wouldn't be too difficult to figure out exactly how power levels scale. We have some nice data points with Roshi blowing up the moon, a normal Human being 5, and Goku lifting a car at 10. If I wasn't so lazy I could just write it up as a story problem and walk to the community college less than a block from my house and ask one of the math instructors there to solve it. Either way though, it's easy enough to see a pattern without knowing the exact specific formula. The value clearly scales upward, which means linear scaling actually lowballs DBZ characters. In other words, you're arguing for my side.
The point is no thought was put into powerscaling, it was never meant to be scaled it only shows the difference in power levels.
@Laurcus: It doesn't tell you how much over though, what you're doing is assuming it's actually high enough to support universe-busting which is a total troll move.
I never said Toriyama wrote the Daizenshuu 7 but he did confirm it which is alot more than he did with filler scenes.
You know he actually wrote a lot of filler scenes? And he even referenced them in the special, "Heya! Son Goku and his Friends Return!". When asked for an example of a filler scene that he wrote, he said that it was his idea to have Goku eat the clouds on Snake Way. Goku is also driving a car during said special, and the only time when Goku is ever seen driving is in filler, and he gets his license in filler.
And Toriyama didn't confirm that Daizenshuu 7 is official. No more so than he has done with anime filler.
Also, don't call me a troll. That's uncalled for poo slinging. You're also strawmanning me. I will now explain what my actual argument is. I am not saying that Goku's kili being over 3000 is evidence that he can bust a universe. I am using that as evidence to dismiss that as a cap to Goku's power. I am saying that reading tells us nothing.
My evidence that Goku can bust a universe is that Moori stated Perfect Cell can.
@dccomicsrule2011 Actually, it wouldn't be too difficult to figure out exactly how power levels scale. We have some nice data points with Roshi blowing up the moon, a normal Human being 5, and Goku lifting a car at 10. If I wasn't so lazy I could just write it up as a story problem and walk to the community college less than a block from my house and ask one of the math instructors there to solve it. Either way though, it's easy enough to see a pattern without knowing the exact specific formula. The value clearly scales upward, which means linear scaling actually lowballs DBZ characters. In other words, you're arguing for my side.
The point is no thought was put into powerscaling, it was never meant to be scaled it only shows the difference in power levels.
You actually don't know what the intent of power levels was... I wouldn't speak in such absolutes about Toriyama's opinion if I were you.
And I've actually put a great deal of thought into power scaling. And by all available data, it shows increasing returns, not decreasing returns, which nullifies your point, as it actually supports what I've been saying more than my own numbers do.
My evidence that Goku can bust a universe is that Moori stated Perfect Cell can.
Show me where and when this happened then we'll talk.
And i mean in the form of a video/scan just so you know.
I can't find the scene on youtube. It's in episode 159, The Last Defense. Not sure why I said 156 earlier, must have been on drugs. I'm sure you can find the episode online and just watch it. Me personally, I own the dvds, so I'm not the person to ask where to watch it.
@terry2012 Different scene. I'm talking about what Elder Moori said. Not when Cell said he gathered enough energy to destroy not only Earth but the solar system as well.
@dccomicsrule2011: The whole point of powerlevels was to be scaled, this determines how powerful a character is even if they got little time to fight.
It shows that on character is stronger then the next but not how much exactly.
@Laurcus said:
@dccomicsrule2011 said:
@Laurcus said:
@BlueComet said:
@Laurcus: It doesn't tell you how much over though, what you're doing is assuming it's actually high enough to support universe-busting which is a total troll move.
I never said Toriyama wrote the Daizenshuu 7 but he did confirm it which is alot more than he did with filler scenes.
You know he actually wrote a lot of filler scenes? And he even referenced them in the special, "Heya! Son Goku and his Friends Return!". When asked for an example of a filler scene that he wrote, he said that it was his idea to have Goku eat the clouds on Snake Way. Goku is also driving a car during said special, and the only time when Goku is ever seen driving is in filler, and he gets his license in filler.
And Toriyama didn't confirm that Daizenshuu 7 is official. No more so than he has done with anime filler.
Also, don't call me a troll. That's uncalled for poo slinging. You're also strawmanning me. I will now explain what my actual argument is. I am not saying that Goku's kili being over 3000 is evidence that he can bust a universe. I am using that as evidence to dismiss that as a cap to Goku's power. I am saying that reading tells us nothing.
My evidence that Goku can bust a universe is that Moori stated Perfect Cell can.
@dccomicsrule2011 Actually, it wouldn't be too difficult to figure out exactly how power levels scale. We have some nice data points with Roshi blowing up the moon, a normal Human being 5, and Goku lifting a car at 10. If I wasn't so lazy I could just write it up as a story problem and walk to the community college less than a block from my house and ask one of the math instructors there to solve it. Either way though, it's easy enough to see a pattern without knowing the exact specific formula. The value clearly scales upward, which means linear scaling actually lowballs DBZ characters. In other words, you're arguing for my side.
The point is no thought was put into powerscaling, it was never meant to be scaled it only shows the difference in power levels.
You actually don't know what the intent of power levels was... I wouldn't speak in such absolutes about Toriyama's opinion if I were you.
And I've actually put a great deal of thought into power scaling. And by all available data, it shows increasing returns, not decreasing returns, which nullifies your point, as it actually supports what I've been saying more than my own numbers do.
Where is the proof it was meant to be scaled? There is none it is pure speculation there for it up to others to believe it I go by showing over power scaling. Yes it means character b is stronger then character a but by how much? We don't know we can just speculate because we have no idea how it is supposed to be taken so it is actually a waist of time debating since you believe it and I don't.
@dccomicsrule2011: The whole point of powerlevels was to be scaled, this determines how powerful a character is even if they got little time to fight.
It shows that on character is stronger then the next but not how much exactly.
@Laurcus said:
@dccomicsrule2011 said:
@Laurcus said:
@BlueComet said:
@Laurcus: It doesn't tell you how much over though, what you're doing is assuming it's actually high enough to support universe-busting which is a total troll move.
I never said Toriyama wrote the Daizenshuu 7 but he did confirm it which is alot more than he did with filler scenes.
You know he actually wrote a lot of filler scenes? And he even referenced them in the special, "Heya! Son Goku and his Friends Return!". When asked for an example of a filler scene that he wrote, he said that it was his idea to have Goku eat the clouds on Snake Way. Goku is also driving a car during said special, and the only time when Goku is ever seen driving is in filler, and he gets his license in filler.
And Toriyama didn't confirm that Daizenshuu 7 is official. No more so than he has done with anime filler.
Also, don't call me a troll. That's uncalled for poo slinging. You're also strawmanning me. I will now explain what my actual argument is. I am not saying that Goku's kili being over 3000 is evidence that he can bust a universe. I am using that as evidence to dismiss that as a cap to Goku's power. I am saying that reading tells us nothing.
My evidence that Goku can bust a universe is that Moori stated Perfect Cell can.
@dccomicsrule2011 Actually, it wouldn't be too difficult to figure out exactly how power levels scale. We have some nice data points with Roshi blowing up the moon, a normal Human being 5, and Goku lifting a car at 10. If I wasn't so lazy I could just write it up as a story problem and walk to the community college less than a block from my house and ask one of the math instructors there to solve it. Either way though, it's easy enough to see a pattern without knowing the exact specific formula. The value clearly scales upward, which means linear scaling actually lowballs DBZ characters. In other words, you're arguing for my side.
The point is no thought was put into powerscaling, it was never meant to be scaled it only shows the difference in power levels.
You actually don't know what the intent of power levels was... I wouldn't speak in such absolutes about Toriyama's opinion if I were you.
And I've actually put a great deal of thought into power scaling. And by all available data, it shows increasing returns, not decreasing returns, which nullifies your point, as it actually supports what I've been saying more than my own numbers do.
Where is the proof it was meant to be scaled? There is none it is pure speculation there for it up to others to believe it I go by showing over power scaling. Yes it means character b is stronger then character a but by how much? We don't know we can just speculate because we have no idea how it is supposed to be taken so it is actually a waist of time debating since you believe it and I don't.
If you believe it's a waste of time then I will trouble you no further, as I will never be able to convince you that I am right. Good day.
Anywho, the discussions seems to have died down somewhat. So I'm gonna go and actually get something done with my day. Gonna go put on some DBZ, (yes, I marathon watch this stuff) and play some Diablo 3. Come on! Give me some good Immortal King's drops!
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