Rules: -As said in the title, this is H2H combat. No powers whatsoever. -Morals on. -Both of them have 1 day of prep. -Fight takes place in the Danger Room
Storm wins here. Can anyone post some h2h feats for Cyclops(not using his powers) and actually defeating experienced fighters? I have yet to see that for him.The best he has is fighting untrained thugs blind vs Storm either holding her own or besting trained and experienced fighters with better showings than Cyclops and physically superior to him in every way.
@THUNDERBOLT30: He's been training in martial arts since he was a teen. Holding black belts in both judo and aikido. Also, I've been told he can hold his own against Wolverine in H2H combat. Plus he's been trained by Captain America.
@THUNDERBOLT30: He's been training in martial arts since he was a teen. Holding black belts in both judo and aikido. Also, I've been told he can hold his own against Wolverine in H2H combat. Plus he's been trained by Captain America.
I am aware of his training but that doesn't mean he would win. Storm has trained in h2h from the time she was a kid by Achmed El Gibar and was already defeating other trained fighters, even adults, at that age. She received more training from Black Panther, and extensive training from Wolverine, and has even picked up techniques from Yukio that she has used in h2h. She has consistently fought opponents with greater showings in h2h skill than Cyclops has shown, and who were physicially superior to Cyclops in everyway.
Cyclops cannot hold his own with Wolverine in pure h2h combat. He does not have the skill nor the physical endurance to contend with Logan. Some fans are taking that fight they had recently in Schism far too out of context. There is no question that Logan stomps him in h2h, and bested people far better than Cyclops. Scott would not have lasted that long had he not used his powers, and even then, punches from Logan could have easily killed Cyclops if wanted.
Based on their showings, I think Cyclops would give Storm a run for her money, but she has far better showings to prove she would win.
@THUNDERBOLT30: He's been training in martial arts since he was a teen. Holding black belts in both judo and aikido. Also, I've been told he can hold his own against Wolverine in H2H combat. Plus he's been trained by Captain America.
I am aware of his training but that doesn't mean he would win. Storm has trained in h2h from the time she was a kid by Achmed El Gibar and was already defeating other trained fighters, even adults, at that age. She received more training from Black Panther, and extensive training from Wolverine, and has even picked up techniques from Yukio that she has used in h2h. She has consistently fought opponents with greater showings in h2h skill than Cyclops has shown, and who were physicially superior to Cyclops in everyway.
Cyclops cannot hold his own with Wolverine in pure h2h combat. He does not have the skill nor the physical endurance to contend with Logan. Some fans are taking that fight they had recently in Schism far too out of context. There is no question that Logan stomps him in h2h, and bested people far better than Cyclops. Scott would not have lasted that long had he not used his powers, and even then, punches from Logan could have easily killed Cyclops if wanted.
Based on their showings, I think Cyclops would give Storm a run for her money, but she has far better showings to prove she would win.
Lol.....at least post a credible h2h feat for Cyclops and in the proper context. Anyone who has read WAP knows that Cyclops fought a fatigued Storm... and she still killed him :-/.
Scott should have this. Besides his earlier hand to hand feats in a danger room scenario and going a round with Wolverine in the Savage Land, he's also survived Wolverine hand to hand in the, admittedly, horribad Schism climax, he's beaten a gang of hardened, and armed, inmates hand to hand with ease most recently in the aftermath of AvX, kicked the crap out of a group of assailants blind, dodged bullets point blank (that's martial skill), then grabbed the gunman's hand in an arm lock and broke it ...
Storm's greatest hand to hand feat that I know of is beating Calisto in a knife fight to gain leadership of the Morlocks, she knocked Sabretooth in the crotch with a Bo stick (after which she was promptly saved by Wolverine) ... she's gone a round with the Cajun (stick fight) if memory serves ...
I know she went without her powers for a while, courtesy of Forge, but am I missing something here?
Scott should have this. Besides his earlier hand to hand feats in a danger room scenario and going a round with Wolverine in the Savage Land, he's also survived Wolverine hand to hand in the, admittedly, horribad Schism climax, he's beaten a gang of hardened, and armed, inmates hand to hand with ease most recently in the aftermath of AvX, kicked the crap out of a group of assailants blind, dodged bullets point blank (that's martial skill), then grabbed the gunman's hand in an arm lock and broke it ...
Storm's greatest hand to hand feat that I know of is beating Calisto in a knife fight to gain leadership of the Morlocks, she knocked Sabretooth in the crotch with a Bo stick (after which she was promptly saved by Wolverine) ... she's gone a round with the Cajun (stick fight) if memory serves ...
I know she went without her powers for a while, courtesy of Forge, but am I missing something here?
She has other great hand-to-hand combat feats such as fighting Crimson Commando and some other goons and dozens of trained concubines who were armed with edged weaponry.
Scott should have this. Besides his earlier hand to hand feats in a danger room scenario and going a round with Wolverine in the Savage Land, he's also survived Wolverine hand to hand in the, admittedly, horribad Schism climax, he's beaten a gang of hardened, and armed, inmates hand to hand with ease most recently in the aftermath of AvX, kicked the crap out of a group of assailants blind, dodged bullets point blank (that's martial skill), then grabbed the gunman's hand in an arm lock and broke it ...
Storm's greatest hand to hand feat that I know of is beating Calisto in a knife fight to gain leadership of the Morlocks, she knocked Sabretooth in the crotch with a Bo stick (after which she was promptly saved by Wolverine) ... she's gone a round with the Cajun (stick fight) if memory serves ...
I know she went without her powers for a while, courtesy of Forge, but am I missing something here?
Storm fought black panther during AVX (he was holding back and there was a lot of PIS but guess it should be noted). She also held her own with the Dora Milaje as well. I think storm wins this. Yes cyclops has fought wolverine but he doesn't always use his skill (not saying he never uses it just sometimes he seems to prefer the healing factor). Wolverine seems to be the only skilled fighter he has faced to my knowledge and we know cyclops isn't as good as Logan so I think wolverine was just using the healing factor against him.
Scott should have this. Besides his earlier hand to hand feats in a danger room scenario and going a round with Wolverine in the Savage Land, he's also survived Wolverine hand to hand in the, admittedly, horribad Schism climax, he's beaten a gang of hardened, and armed, inmates hand to hand with ease most recently in the aftermath of AvX, kicked the crap out of a group of assailants blind, dodged bullets point blank (that's martial skill), then grabbed the gunman's hand in an arm lock and broke it ...
Storm's greatest hand to hand feat that I know of is beating Calisto in a knife fight to gain leadership of the Morlocks, she knocked Sabretooth in the crotch with a Bo stick (after which she was promptly saved by Wolverine) ... she's gone a round with the Cajun (stick fight) if memory serves ...
I know she went without her powers for a while, courtesy of Forge, but am I missing something here?
Storm fought black panther during AVX (he was holding back and there was a lot of PIS but guess it should be noted). She also held her own with the Dora Milaje as well. I think storm wins this. Yes cyclops has fought wolverine but he doesn't always use his skill (not saying he never uses it just sometimes he seems to prefer the healing factor). Wolverine seems to be the only skilled fighter he has faced to my knowledge and we know cyclops isn't as good as Logan so I think wolverine was just using the healing factor against him.
Black Panther never fought back and the Dora Milaje are throwaway mooks that are abundant in the comicverse. If he is not using his skill to defend because he doesn't need to then that would give him an offensive edge. Cyclop's has held his own against Logan on a few occasions with no clear winner which is more than can be said for some of the Avengers. You said earlier that he was holding back but Logan has made it clear that he would kill if need be, he had his claws out throughout their fight in Schism except when he was surprised after Scott tackled him to stop him from blowing up the island and he went for Cap's head in AvsX.
i think she has the background experience to in this.
He easily beats her if it's purely on history more unretconned experience than most heroes as he has been at this since he was a child, further experience being older than his body thanks to time travel hijinks, he was the one who trained most of the X-Men including Storm and he has the physical advantage.
Scott should have this. Besides his earlier hand to hand feats in a danger room scenario and going a round with Wolverine in the Savage Land, he's also survived Wolverine hand to hand in the, admittedly, horribad Schism climax, he's beaten a gang of hardened, and armed, inmates hand to hand with ease most recently in the aftermath of AvX, kicked the crap out of a group of assailants blind, dodged bullets point blank (that's martial skill), then grabbed the gunman's hand in an arm lock and broke it ...
Storm's greatest hand to hand feat that I know of is beating Calisto in a knife fight to gain leadership of the Morlocks, she knocked Sabretooth in the crotch with a Bo stick (after which she was promptly saved by Wolverine) ... she's gone a round with the Cajun (stick fight) if memory serves ...
I know she went without her powers for a while, courtesy of Forge, but am I missing something here?
Storm fought black panther during AVX (he was holding back and there was a lot of PIS but guess it should be noted). She also held her own with the Dora Milaje as well. I think storm wins this. Yes cyclops has fought wolverine but he doesn't always use his skill (not saying he never uses it just sometimes he seems to prefer the healing factor). Wolverine seems to be the only skilled fighter he has faced to my knowledge and we know cyclops isn't as good as Logan so I think wolverine was just using the healing factor against him.
Black Panther never fought back and the Dora Milaje are throwaway mooks that are abundant in the comicverse. If he is not using his skill to defend because he doesn't need to then that would give him an offensive edge. Cyclop's has held his own against Logan on a few occasions with no clear winner which is more than can be said for some of the Avengers. You said earlier that he was holding back but Logan has made it clear that he would kill if need be, he had his claws out throughout their fight in Schism except when he was surprised after Scott tackled him to stop him from blowing up the island and he went for Cap's head in AvsX.
While that last scan is dubious (due to the nature of the attack) Wolverine was not initially trying to kill Cap. You're missing a few scans. Why would he have gone for a precision cut, cutting the strap to Cap's shield, when he could have just taken off his arm with less trouble? His cut to Steve's abdomen was shallow and cosmetic. Everything before that 'wall' strike leads to believe he was hitting to maim, not kill. Like Wolverine's said plenty of times to foes (like Namor for instance) when they chided him for sloppy attacks ... he simply replies "yeah, I'm sloppy, that must be it" intimating how silly it is to think a man of his skill 'sloppy' (paraphrasing, but what he states amounts to the same).
I think the wall strike, had it hit Cap, would not have been fatal - like with Namor, it would have missed vital organs.
And yeah, Wolverine was likewise holding back on Cyclops in Schism. He was punching Scott in the face claws sheathed (which, really, should have been enough to kill Scott in and of itself with but a splash of realism).
I'd lean towards Cyke, but Storm could make it tough. I think (and this is totally subjective) that his overall fighting abilities have gone up since the 80s, while hers have not.
@Jake Fury: @Dextersinister: I'm sorry but Storm wins this, not easily, but she does. I have not seen anything (including the scans posted on this thread) that would suggest Cyclops can take Storm down. His tract record pales in comparison to hers. She's fought more skilled fighters than Cyclops has faced and also took down opponents far more physically advanced than herself.
He was actually using sub mission holds. He held back but its not like he just stood there and blocked her attacks with ease.
To be honest I don't believe storm should be able to engage black panther in melee anymore then I do cyclops engaging wolverine in melee.
and the Dora Milaje are throwaway mooks that are abundant in the comicverse.
2 of them beat black widow. Pretty sure it was the same 2 storm fought as well.
If he is not using his skill to defend because he doesn't need to then that would give him an offensive edge.
What I am saying is sometimes wolverine prefers brawling over finesse. Wolverine-despite being one of the best in marvel universe-is sometimes lazy in the use of his skill. He doesn't practice his skill as much as he should. And cyclops powers also provided interference.
Cyclop's has held his own against Logan on a few occasions with no clear winner which is more than can be said for some of the Avengers.
Most encounters were before wolverine was established as a skilled fighter when he went melee with wolverine. He wasn't written as a skilled fighter if you are talking about the instance I think you are, because he wasn't a skilled fighter in that era. Wolverines skills were established a little bit later. And even if he were again it comes down to the fact Logan doesn't always apply his skill in the ways he should. And wolverine has also gotten the better of cyclops more then once as well. In origins he was deflecting cyclops optic blasts with the murmasia blade while fighting cap, and when he was death I am pretty sure he took cyclops and a team of X-men. So there are instances which balance out cyclops going hand to hand with wolverine as well.
Does cyclops have any other feats besides fighting wolverine which suggest he is remotely close to the same league as wolverine? If not then it seems Logan being sloppy is the more logical explanation.
You said earlier that he was holding back but Logan has made it clear that he would kill if need be, he had his claws out throughout their fight in Schism except when he was surprised after Scott tackled him to stop him from blowing up the island and he went for Cap's head in AvsX.
Super soldier pretty much addressed this. I would assume wolverine going for caps head was an artistic error. Sometimes artists don't always portray things the way writers intend them to be.
I will be honest and state my knowledge of cyclops is limited so I am open to be changed. But I need more then fighting wolverine (who sometimes doesn't fight to the best of his abilities) and judo tossing colossus when he thought he was fighting phoenix. What other fighters has cyclops fought?
I will be honest and state my knowledge of cyclops is limited so I am open to be changed. But I need more then fighting wolverine (who sometimes doesn't fight to the best of his abilities) and judo tossing colossus when he thought he was fighting phoenix. What other fighters has cyclops fought?
Stricly h2h, no one worth noting skill wise. He beat a few prison thugs easily. He beat half a dozen thugs with his eyes closed. And he disarmed a gunman when his back was turned before the guy got the shot off. Cyclops's pure h2h feats are very spread out and he hasn't beaten anyone established.
I will be honest and state my knowledge of cyclops is limited so I am open to be changed. But I need more then fighting wolverine (who sometimes doesn't fight to the best of his abilities) and judo tossing colossus when he thought he was fighting phoenix. What other fighters has cyclops fought?
Stricly h2h, no one worth noting skill wise. He beat a few prison thugs easily. He beat half a dozen thugs with his eyes closed. And he disarmed a gunman when his back was turned before the guy got the shot off. Cyclops's pure h2h feats are very spread out and he hasn't beaten anyone established.
Street level superheroes rarely beat any established heroes, you will rarely get a moments here there are clear winners in a straight up fight just lots of fights where they both hold their own. AvsX was riddled with moments where something got in the way, Magneto was distracted, Hawkeye threatened Betsy when fighting Angel and so on.
Cyclops has held his own against Wolverine, Storm has never held her own against any established characters as far as I am aware in a straight up fight.
@jashro44: He still never fought back and I believe Cyclops would have a shot at Black Panther, it would not be the one sided match you make it out to be.
Cyclops has been training Wolverine since before he was even famous and they have never had a clear winner, popularity earned him the rank as one of Marvels greatest h2h fighters but they couldn't go back and retcon Cyclops as an inferior fighter. If Wolverine wasn't using his skill during Schism that would just be silly for 2 reasons it was better choreographed than most of his fights and writers don't simply declare that a character won't use there skill, when something important is on the line and they weren't surprised we assume they are fighting to the best of their ability
I haven't read the issues with her fighting these Doras, I am not aware of how they beat Widow but there seems to be some bald guy helping Storm when they nearly had her.
Wolverine had pointed out multiple times that unlike the Avengers he would kill if need be within the event, he was going to kill a young teenage girl because he thought it would save the world, was asking for the death of young Cyclops but then was unwilling to kill a child Apocalypse in another title. Wolverines personality is all over the place with multiple writers so I don't question how he reacts anymore.
Scott should have this. Besides his earlier hand to hand feats in a danger room scenario and going a round with Wolverine in the Savage Land, he's also survived Wolverine hand to hand in the, admittedly, horribad Schism climax, he's beaten a gang of hardened, and armed, inmates hand to hand with ease most recently in the aftermath of AvX, kicked the crap out of a group of assailants blind, dodged bullets point blank (that's martial skill), then grabbed the gunman's hand in an arm lock and broke it ...
Storm's greatest hand to hand feat that I know of is beating Calisto in a knife fight to gain leadership of the Morlocks, she knocked Sabretooth in the crotch with a Bo stick (after which she was promptly saved by Wolverine) ... she's gone a round with the Cajun (stick fight) if memory serves ...
I know she went without her powers for a while, courtesy of Forge, but am I missing something here?
Storm fought black panther during AVX (he was holding back and there was a lot of PIS but guess it should be noted). She also held her own with the Dora Milaje as well. I think storm wins this. Yes cyclops has fought wolverine but he doesn't always use his skill (not saying he never uses it just sometimes he seems to prefer the healing factor). Wolverine seems to be the only skilled fighter he has faced to my knowledge and we know cyclops isn't as good as Logan so I think wolverine was just using the healing factor against him.
Black Panther never fought back and the Dora Milaje are throwaway mooks that are abundant in the comicverse. If he is not using his skill to defend because he doesn't need to then that would give him an offensive edge. Cyclop's has held his own against Logan on a few occasions with no clear winner which is more than can be said for some of the Avengers. You said earlier that he was holding back but Logan has made it clear that he would kill if need be, he had his claws out throughout their fight in Schism except when he was surprised after Scott tackled him to stop him from blowing up the island and he went for Cap's head in AvsX.
While that last scan is dubious (due to the nature of the attack) Wolverine was not initially trying to kill Cap. You're missing a few scans. Why would he have gone for a precision cut, cutting the strap to Cap's shield, when he could have just taken off his arm with less trouble? His cut to Steve's abdomen was shallow and cosmetic. Everything before that 'wall' strike leads to believe he was hitting to maim, not kill. Like Wolverine's said plenty of times to foes (like Namor for instance) when they chided him for sloppy attacks ... he simply replies "yeah, I'm sloppy, that must be it" intimating how silly it is to think a man of his skill 'sloppy' (paraphrasing, but what he states amounts to the same).
I think the wall strike, had it hit Cap, would not have been fatal - like with Namor, it would have missed vital organs.
And yeah, Wolverine was likewise holding back on Cyclops in Schism. He was punching Scott in the face claws sheathed (which, really, should have been enough to kill Scott in and of itself with but a splash of realism).
The initial attacks from Wolverine was him diving at him claws first then swinging at him while avoiding blows then swinging upwards at his arm. The initial attack and the moment where he gets a clear shot after Steves lost the shield are both momenst that would be lethal if they had connected.
Cyclops follows the same cinematic rule he is able to avoid all of Wolverines potentially lethal strikes but takes a full hit in that short moment when his claws have been retracted. How did Cyke take the blow? with the only thing that matters and the same thing that prevented Cykes blasts from completely peeling the flesh off his bones or knocking him across the island, major character power.
He still never fought back and I believe Cyclops would have a shot at Black Panther, it would not be the one sided match you make it out to be.
He did fight back. Thats the point. He was holding back and not giving it his all yes but he was still trying to restrain her. And no cyclops would get wrecked by black panther in hand to hand....Not that storm would do any better against black panther if he were actually giving it his all but still.
Cyclops has been training Wolverine since before he was even famous and they have never had a clear winner, popularity earned him the rank as one of Marvels greatest h2h fighters but they couldn't go back and retcon Cyclops as an inferior fighter.
They could and they did retcon cyclops as the inferior fighter. Back in those days cyclops was a better fighter then wolverine, because wolverine wasn't a skilled fighter.... Thats not the case anymore. We know this. We can go feat for feat with wolverine and cyclops skill showings and wolverines showings are dozens of times better. Wolverine has done things like get the better of cap, curbstomp shang chi, defeat daken, defeat deadpool, defeated iron fist in a spar, and some other stuff cyclops has never come close to matching. Cyclops isn't a bad fighter but he is not comparable to wolverine in hand to hand. He would need his powers to actually defeat wolverine.
If Wolverine wasn't using his skill during Schism that would just be silly for 2 reasons it was better choreographed than most of his fights
Not really. Only thing that was well choreographed was dodging a few optic blasts.The rest of the fight I don't think Logan showed much technique.Seemed like he was just punching.
and writers don't simply declare that a character won't use there skill, when something important is on the line and they weren't surprised we assume they are fighting to the best of their ability
Writers often have characters not use an ability for plot. So it is not assumed characters are fighting to the best of there ability when something is on the line. All I know is wolverine has been known to ignore his skill occasionally in the past and he is the only skilled fighter that seems to be brought up that cyclops has fought. By feats he isn't in wolverines league and it doesn't make sense for cyclops to go hand to hand with wolverine who is actually using skill. We have even seen instances like origins (which is PIS admittedly) where wolverine also doesn't have a hard time with cyclops. That is why I don't put much in holding his own with wolverine. He doesn't always practice his skill and he also has instances which contradict the idea that cyclops is in wolverines hand to hand league.
I haven't read the issues with her fighting these Doras, I am not aware of how they beat Widow but there seems to be some bald guy helping Storm when they nearly had her.
They beat black widow during an issue of black panther around civil war era. I will look it up when I get home. And I said she held her own with them.
Wolverine had pointed out multiple times that unlike the Avengers he would kill if need be within the event, he was going to kill a young teenage girl because he thought it would save the world, was asking for the death of young Cyclops but then was unwilling to kill a child Apocalypse in another title. Wolverines personality is all over the place with multiple writers so I don't question how he reacts anymore.
He decided not to kill Hope IIRC (what he said he was going to do isn't relevant unless he actually did it) and when went for cyclops that was after AVX when cyclops was blamed for killing professor X.
@god_spawn said:
@jashro44:
I will be honest and state my knowledge of cyclops is limited so I am open to be changed. But I need more then fighting wolverine (who sometimes doesn't fight to the best of his abilities) and judo tossing colossus when he thought he was fighting phoenix. What other fighters has cyclops fought?
Stricly h2h, no one worth noting skill wise. He beat a few prison thugs easily. He beat half a dozen thugs with his eyes closed. And he disarmed a gunman when his back was turned before the guy got the shot off. Cyclops's pure h2h feats are very spread out and he hasn't beaten anyone established.
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