Black Panther Runs The Spider Man villains Gauntlet

black panther 90s version stops at 5, marvel now black panther might actually clear

@tg_54: 90's black panther can take kraven.

@jashro44: kraven was able to stand toe to toe with spider-man by using his strength and pressure point attacks. sure he eventually lost because spider-man is faster and stronger but he would do the same thing to black panther but there would be a better ending

@static_shock: @tbemrmccoy: Thanks for the compliments, I appreciate it (and from a long term Panther "advocate" like yourself, Static Shock, it is high praise indeed).

Too late. 90s Black Panther defeated Alyosha Kravinoff. In Man Without Fear, depowered Black Panther defeated Sergei Kravinoff as well.

@theonewhoknows: Marvel Team up happened in 1974, and Spider-Man has got alot faster since then. Around that period of time, he also fought Luke Cage, who had no speed whatsoever, yet Peter Parker was being tagged by him. Molten Man was also too fast for him, despite Peter having his spider-sense giving him forewarning. For example when Peter Parker got the Other Upgrade he stomped the crap out Stegron. While Peter doesn't have the Upgrade anymore, he has WOTS martial arts training which gives him at least combat speed which is probably better than what he ever had before, upgrades or not.

That being said BP goes invisible and decapitates Lizard's head with an energy dagger

@granitesoldier: :p

@laflux: (Sigh). Attempting to lowball, or downright deny and/or dismiss feats is an old (and futile ) tactic. Panther had gotten faster since that time too, easily keeping pace with Parker (and therefore still surpassing him) even BEFORE the King Of The Dead upgrade (and has avoided and tagged Parker since that Marvel Team Up adventure on more than one occasion); with the upgrade, he is STILL faster. Every fast character has PIS incidents of them being tagged by people they shoudn't be (it would take me time I don't feel like extending to round up all the characters that realistically can't come CLOSE to touching T'challa that have been depicted as doing so). And your interjecting Spider-Man into this was not the point of my post anyway; my point is that there is enough examples of T'challa's incredible speed to prove that he has the ability to avoid the Lizard's clutches (and, revisiting the web head again for a moment, there has been MORE than enough examples over the years to show that he is AT LEAST on par with Parker's speed, meaning he is fast enough to avoid Lizard---THE POINT OF MY POST). So the fact remains: due to the reasons I mentioned in prior posts---when facing the Spider-Man villians guantlet:

BLACK PANTHER WINS.

@theonewhoknows: Like laflux said, there are things you are not taking into account. And Laflux is not lowballing...geez. Character's often get better and improve over time. That is a fact. They get more experience, better training, more impressive feats...bringing that up doesn't equate to lowballing. It equates to a strict fact of life.

While it is great and all that BP has taken down some tough customers, not a single one of those foes equates to Connors.

Spider-Man does have that nifty spider-sense, not to mention, without spider-sense, and training, he was able to stalemate a full blown precog with spider powers of her own...his warrior's sense and physical attributes made it a strict stalemate against someone who knew his every move, and they could not land one hit. Then there is the fact that he was able to blitz and take down multiple spider-powered foes, who had spider-senses and enhancements of their own, while he still did not have spider-sense. Then he faced a mutated Kaine, who stomped him at first, but with the return of his spider-sense, combined with his training, he was able to stomp Kaine.

So why this diatribe on Spidey? If we were talking classic Connors, then maybe everyone you brought up would be a great consideration, but current Connors? Current Connors has a healing factor almost on par with Wolvie, shrugs off Spidey's hits like they were nothing, and his physical stats blow Spidey's out of the water. Bearing in mind with what I have brought up about Spidey, Connor's is able to consistently tag this version Spidey, irregardless of his speed, training, physical stats, and spider-sense. He makes Spidey's abilities and stats look like a joke.

Then, this whole forcefield business...in every scan I have seen of current Panther, when he goes hand to hand, he has not used a forcefield in hand to hand. Even when facing Namor...which you would think would be a great time to pull it up and use it. Yet, strangely he does not.

So, you can disagree with the "Bieber fans" all you like, but I have yet to see an argument that convinces me Panther clears this. Give him some prep, sure, but without it? Not a chance.

@laflux: @wyldsong: @theonewhoknows: Well Laflux beat me to it since my washing machine broke and I had to repair it last night, but the FF and team up feats are dated. Yes, dating for a company with no reboots like Marvel matters. Lizard has beaten Stegron for the record as well I believe, if we want to dig into obscure past issues. Panther also fought a significantly weaker FF. And one speed feat doesn't make him faster than Peter, because he isn't, but that isn't the debate here.

Anyway I'm very busy today but let's put your using the past argument in perspective: Spider-Man has hit hard enough to decently hurt he Hulk, a guy who these days can break planets. Does this mean Peter is near Hulk's level? No. The version of Hulk in question is a far older and weaker version.

As for the rest, I've said my piece and Wyld has touched many of my points. Stops at Lizard.

@wyldsong: Are you, you know---actually READING what I post? Not SKIMMING, but actually READING, and taking time to ABSORB and COMPREHEND what I'm saying? By your responses, it appears you are not. You talk about Spider-Man getting "more experience, better training, more impressive feats" and him managing to "get better and improve over time". As I stated in the post DIRECTLY ABOVE YOUR LAST ONE (so how could you possibly miss it) T'challa has improved since that time too. What, you think that by some unknown sorcery, Parker improved over the years, and Panther didn't? A man who until recentlly ruled over an entire kingdom (and who therefore, more than most, it was IMPERATIVE to always up his game and be one step ahead of everyone in every arena, INCLUDING combat)? Who also had the King Of The Dead upgrade that increased his physical and senses capacities even FURTHER? Are you ACTUALLY inferring that Spider-Man improved, but Panther stayed frozen at the same ability (for no discernible reason other than you "like" Parker better)?

Scorpion has the physicals to stop him, but just completely lacks the brains.

Goblin has the brains, but I just don't see him putting in the wins more often than the losses due to Panther's tech advantages.

The only way I could see Panther taking one over Lizard (beyond the usual 'hero wins' lucky shot) is if he's on good enough terms with Bast to get her to intercede with Sobek on his behalf.

Oddly enough Electro wouldn't be much problem for him, for much the same reason Spidey does, superior knowledge of physics.

@wyldsong: @granitesoldier: Granitesoldier, I'm glad you've "said your piece" because your arguements make no sense and have no merit. As the FF is now stronger, so is Panther (both physically and with tech) so your trying to lowball and/or dismiss the past feats doesn't work. You are certainly entitled to your incorrect OPINION that it "stops at Lizard" but the opinion of a random poster who WILLFULLY ignores facts and feats to reach a conclusion is really of no consequence.

And Wyldsong, if you are ACTUALLY trying to say that people with the durability to withstand things that would SHRED Connors "don't equate to the Lizard", or people who have healing factors AT LEAST on par with Connors "don't equate to the Lizard", or are trying to even INSINUATE that if it became neccessary for T'challa to use a force field that has stood up to the things Static Shock mentioned in his post in an ACTUAL battle (as opposed to a script driven one where a writer-who doesn't want to depict a 5 panel fight-artificially MAKES T'challa do such a thing) he wouldn't do so---then I am afraid you are being driven by FAN, not FACT based sensibilities. In an ACTUAL fight, where some writer couldn't make T'challa behave in illogical ways, there is not a single, logical, legitimite reason why the battle wouldn't unfold in the ways I mentioned (and the time honored reason of "I ignore all that because I "like" or have made up my mind that my chosen character wins so screw facts, feats and logic" doesn't count).

P.S.-Speaking of having a "Beiber" mentality, I don't seem to be in any discernible "minority" in thinking Panther clears (or at least gets past the Lizard)---so you don't even have THAT.

@wyldsong already replied, but just to continue, the amp Spider-Man got both in physical speed and combat training is greater than the amp Black Panther got from being on the Herb, to being King of the Dead. This has been confirmed by Hickman (IIRC), that his stats have only slightly increased. Peter's physical feats from the 1970's to 2000's have a greater disparity than Panther's. Meanwhile Stan Lee who created the character said Peter would get stronger over time and that has happened through feats as he's got older- Peter was barely out of High school in the seventies. And yes Panther has tagged Spider-Man more recently (with Peter comparing Panther's speed to his own in the most recent case). I don't even disagree that Panther is fast (he's run up vertical surfaces, thrown punches faster than the eye could see underwater, reacted to a bloodlusted iron fist and managed to slip a sonic device in his ear without him noticing). However, I don't think he's as fast as Peter. Peter has speed-blitzed people with Spider-Powers who could see bullets in slow motion in a single panel without his Spider-Sense, and dogded a Mach 3.5 bullet at near point blank range. Travel speed wise (since you brought up Sabertooth), Peter has covered miles in seconds and outpaced bullets for an extended period of time, before catching on of them (the other one went through his shoulder TBF). And Lizard still blitzed the sh!t out of him. So no, I don't think Black Panther can stay out of the clutches of Connors (at least not for any significant period of time).

Black Panther could get past Lizard due to invisibility, gauntlets and energy daggers, but he won't be sidestepping his attacks with the greatest of ease, and he would have to employ this tactic pretty quickly because in any prolonged battle he's outmatched. Again to take a page of out Wyldsong, Lizard has stats which greatly exceed Peter in every area (from speed to strength to durability) and his healing factor would likely protect him from pressure point attacks. He's not some lumbering brick T'challa can simply dance around like Suris Man-Dog, Namor or the Superskrull (Who could only use one power at a time). And as for Electro, you are joking right? Current Electro could probably kill everyone in this gauntlet at the same time, including Black Panther.

I don't even know why your even arguing with me to be honest. I posted directly that Black Panther could beat Lizard (I guess you might have missed it).

@theonewhoknows: Also calling Spider-Man fans "Beiber fans" lol :P

Edit

Panther not really having to improve over time in terms of skill is more a testament of how good he was in the first place. Earlier issues of BP already had him as a martial arts master. Earlier annuals of Spider-Man had him webbing people in the face even though they were blind and used sonar to navigate. Of course Panther has got better, but Peter has got better by a larger amount. And honestly, Panther's gear before K.O.T.D would have probably been more useful in trying to take on Lizard (namely the Vibranuim weave) than the gear he seems to have now. And I've already covered the nature of the amp of the K.O.T.D. He's only really gained more experience and knowlegde, and not all of that is applicable to Combat (which he was already very good at in the first place).

And if we are governing fighting skills based on how to rule a Kindgom, Wakanda is pretty much destroyed at the moment. So there.

@laflux: Panther's speed feats include at least TWICE running the gamut of the Avengers mansion defenses which nailed even fast moving members like Captain America and Beast, MULTIPLE instances of dodging automatic gunfire while enhanced, and avoiding gunfire when unenhanced and also fighting American Panther at the same time. He may not be able to avoid the Lizard with "the greatest of ease", but he CAN avoid him enough to hit him with energy daggers that have been capable of cutting through steel, shut down Iron Man's force fields, and phase through Ultron's adamantium body and then solidify within (any and all of these tactics of which would DEVASTATE Connors, and which I partially alluded to in a prior post). You are correct, we don't need to be arguing; I just call out incidences where I believe I detect lowalling (which to me includes dismissing past feats because the people that were beaten are "stronger now"---which is a moot point because the Panther has advanced since that time, which compensates). And as for Electro, I did say that at the very least T'challa being able to teleport means that he could get away (and/or POSSIBLY battlefield remove the villian that way).

Perfect post

Not really. Black panther has also held his own against spider-man. Kraven has studied Peters moves which helps a lot. Really the only advantage Kraven has is strength and healing. If we take away the vibranium suit kraven would be more durable but the 90's was when black panther got the vibranium suit.

@laflux: Wha---?

Wow. Just---wow.

As I count to ten, I refer you to post number number 63 for now as my initial response, for now.

Good. GRIEF.

For one, why do you feel the need to be so rude? You seem a little amped up on mountain dew or whatever it is the cool kids are drinking nowadays. Did I read your post? Yes I did, and as others have stated, Parker has improved even more.

No one said Panther has not improved any (he hasn't really needed to honestly), but by the tone of your post, you seem a little too emotionally involved in this discussion. Relax, we are just talking here, no need to get upset. You're stuck on this Panther and Spidey improving bit, and even focusing on that shows that you are not grasping the reasoning as to why Spidey's improvements and upgrades are important to even bring up.

If you think I am inferring that Panther has not had any upgrades nor improvements, then I think maybe you need to reread what is being said. Relax man, get a coke, chill out.

He seems to be ignoring the bolded. His rage over anyone even daring to question BP seems to have blinded him somewhat=)

Lol=)

Anyhow, I don't think there is much else to add. He seems a little too emotionally invested in this one my friend, but I think everything has been covered nicely.

Agreed.

@wyldsong: Glad you think conversing with a person who agrees with you means you have "proved" something. There have been a few people who agree with me (one on this very page) and I can tag them, conversate with them, and use this to "prove" I'm right, too (see how that works)?

You can "calmly" continue to claim Panther is inferior to Parker, and would lose to Lizard, and I can-in any fashion I choose-state that those assertions are incorrect.

Except of course, I actually AM correct.

Whatever helps you get to sleep at night bud, just keep telling yourself that=)

@wyldsong: Being a clean living individual helps me get to sleep at night, not anything to do with this thread. But being correct on Panther defeating Lizard IS a nice thing to know, however.

Like I said, keep telling yourself what you have to. No sweat off my back bro=)

@wyldsong: What is this, the "nany nany boo boo" method of conversing now? I shouldn't be suprised; I thought you were having reading comprehension difficulties because of a communication issue; apparently it is because you are somewhat younger than I thought.

Oh, well.

No son, I am just bemused by your overinflated sense of self worth and ego. It is just plain amusing to see what you will say next=)

Anyhow, enough of the derailment of the thread, but take the last word, if you must=)

@wyldsong: I see that you tagged me, but I'm afraid that I didn't read what you wrote; it is clear you are no longer interested in a substantial discussion, so whatever you wrote is moot.

=)

Anyhow, back to the topic on hand, stops at Lizard.

Oh, and as I stated---due to the reasons I posted previously: when T'challa runs the Spider-Man villians guantlet---

BLACK PANTHER WINS.

Stops at Electro

Not exactly. Hickman said he was stronger than before, on top of everything else he's gained. The only problem is that it's difficult to quantify how strong he's become.

Panther has never shown to be faster than Spidey.

@static_shock: I gave an example of when he was shown to be; it is reprinted by a poster above.

I know its been said before but Peter in the 70's wasn't all that. Black Panther dodging Stergons tail is a good feat (I'll have to look over more recent feats for him) but I don't think that justifies him being faster than modern spider-man. They had a fight where black panther did say spider-man is probably faster than him all though black panther managed to tag him still (IIRC he bounced off the wall and tackled him). That is also an old showing to be fair. There is a more recent showing in the spider-man human torch series where Peter says black panther is more agile than himself but Peter was trying to explain himself to be fair. And spider-man does also have a tendency to over exaggerate at times.

I would say black panther is fast enough to tag Peter based on consistency but I think spider-man is faster. Regardless the only reason Peter even touched current Lizard was because Lizard was having a nervous break down and got distracted. Lizard was basically blitzing Peter prior to that. Honestly there are some fair points, black panther is probably better suited currently for a fight with Lizard than spider-man is. But still I don't think you can say black panther is so much faster than spider-man he can basically blitz him, or that Peter would need a distraction to touch him.

I am assuming Lizards mind is stable here since battle forum rules state characters are suppose to be at there best. All though if we are assuming Lizard is unstable it might buy black panther enough time to turn invisible and put lizard down. I don't recall Lizard having enhanced senses so maybe black panther can take him if he can avoid being blitzed.

@static shock- Hickman said he was only slightly stronger and that the knowlegde gained was the real get. I don't think his stat increase makes a big difference- at least that's what it seemed Hickman was trying to say.

@theonewhoknows: Man your ego is something.

Aggression and calling someone else claiming they 'proved nothing' when it seems you didn't read the post or chose to ignore it hurts your credibility, not mine.

Although I find it funny far more credible Panther experts are debating again st points you make because you're so far out there.

Be mad, be emotional, believe your right. This debate will go no where so I don't care what you think.

@granitesoldier: lol >:)

Indeed=)

wow im uh just wow

i feel very sad and very sick after reading this

Makes sense.

That example doesn't make him faster, though. There's another instance people take out of context. The one with T'Challa pinning Spider-Man (who was in the Black suit) against the wall just after Spidey dodged his lunge or whatever. There was some dialogue there about a comparison between Panther's speed to Spidey's, but nothing explicit about T'Challa being considerably faster. At best, T'Challa is at least as fast as Wolverine (you mentioned this), or better yet, three times faster than an actual black panther (according to Captain America). Then, there's the time he gave Sabretooth a headstart in the Wakandan jungle, and Panther immediately caught up with him which had Creed saying "no one is that fast!" Other than that, he's not even close to Spidey in terms of speed.

@static_shock: @jashro44: Once again, I arrive at a situation where over the cold, dull screen of a web site, specific meanings can get lost in translation, no matter how precisely one tries to type. Jashro44,first of all let me say I agree with most what you expressed in your last post. If your re-read what I actually wrote, I did not state (nor did I mean to imply) that T'challa is WAAAAY faster than Parker. I was trying to list feats that proved Panther was on par with Spider-Man's speed, and therefore fast enough to avoid Lizard until he was able to iniate a strategy to take Lizard down (such as the one I outlined in post 66, and which is the topic of this thread). I wanted to REALLY drive home that point by detailing a situation where Panther even surpassed the web head in an exhibition of speed, so that's why I included the Panther/Spider-Man/Stegron incident. My post was NOT to state that, in your words, "black panther is so much faster than spider-man he can basically blitz him, or that Peter would need a distraction to touch him". I would NEVER state anything LIKE that! I have been reading comics too long-I would wager probably longer than anyone on this thread-to claim or even THINK that! I was thinking that Panther was faster than Spider-Man in the same way that, say, PreN52 Monel was a bit faster than his (emotional) "little brother" Superboy because he was slightly older (although I suppose an argument can be made for Kal-el being faster because of longer/greater experience with his powers, but you get the idea). But in reading your (and Static Shock's) posts, you seem to acknowledge that Panther has MORE than enough stats and feats to show that he is definately on par with Parker, AND that in fact there are legitimite arguments that he is faster (in a Mon-el/Superboy way).

I didn't mean for some lines to illustrate Panther's speed is enough to allow him to avoid being struck at will by the Lizard to derail the topic I was discussing so severely, but this has happened before---on another thread, when I stated that Wonder Woman was in the FTL (Faster Than Light) club with Superman and Flash (and in fact had lassoed Flash on two occasions) proving she had what it took to blitz a certain opponent, a poster took that to mean I was saying she was faster than Flash---even though I said no such thing! He went on to post scan after scan of Flash feats to show he is faster than Diana, going wildly off topic before I could finally get through to him that that was NOT what I was saying! Or the time I said that Gladiator and Hyperion are like clones of Superman since their powers (and in Hyperion's case, his Justice League-er I mean Squadron Supreme team mates) were virtually identical---and a poster said I was basically stating that anyone with super powers is a clone of Superman (??!?) I had only mentioned THOSE TWO because of their identical powers, yet somehow the person took that to mean I was saying ALL superheroes.

So I know this post is long, but I hope you will have patience and read it through, because I think it, in a much more accurate way, explains where I'm coming from in regards to Panther and Spider-Man's speeds. One last thing-I certainly can accept that Spider-Man has improved since the Stegron incident, but going by all the feats T'challa has engaged in since that time, so has he. I have seen no evidence whatsoever-NONE-to suggest that Panther is not able to STILL match, or surpass Parker in speed. You all's posts indicate this as well, I just wanted to point that out. Hope everything is a bit clearer.

@granitesoldier: I leave the 'Vine for a couple of days, and what do I see? Granitesoldier has posted yet another ridiculous, fact free, and unintentionally hillarious post-hillarious in that is delivered in a style that indicates he is in some fantasy world where he is some kind of dashing action hero, and he is just laying down the law to me----when actually he is just some random poster who's flawed opinions mean nothing.

LESS than nothing

You have posted such an INTRICATE web of incorrect---do you get PAID to be so wrong?

The only thing the "certain Panther experts" are debating is whether Panther is faster than Spider-Man, and if you read what they wrote, they think that is possible---just not that he is WAAAAY faster, something I agree with. So, you're wrong here, strike one.

In regards to people on your own "team" being contradictory, one of your two stooges, laflux, states that he believes Panther WOULD get past Lizard-which, is, you know, part of the ACTUAL topic of this thread, NOT some side issue with Spider-Man. And a quick look at the posts on this thread show that at least half of the people who have posted believe the same thing---so I am NOT as "out there" as your fact free post asserted. Yes, despite what "Beiber boy" Wyldsong predicted, I am not in any significant "minority" on thinking Panther gets past Lizard because of a combination on speed, skill and tech. So, being wrong is in effect here again; strike two.

And finally, I'm not "mad", just animated---passionate, if you will. And clearly you DO care what I think; if you did not, you would have indeed been out of the thread like you claimed you were earlier. When people "don't care" about something, they stay away from it. If you truly "don't care", than prove it by taking your fact free, of no consequence views off the thread---or better yet, take your petulant, whiny self off the site and go to Comic Book Resources, or something. You won't be missed a bit.

And that's strike three. And you know what comes with strike three. So honor that strike three tradition---and be OUT.

@theonewhoknows: Come on, if you are going to talk smack about me, at least have the guts to tag me in it so I can get some more amusement out of this. Since you do not believe you are in the minority, let's check the tally. Now, to be clear on this, this is where I placed you in the minority:

"Here's the thing, your belief is your belief in this, and I will not disrespect nor fault you for it, but I think you are going to be in the minority on this one. I don't see the Panther clearing this, and there are at least 1 or 2 people on here that have commented whose Panther knowledge I trust implicitly that believe the same as I."

I have to clarify this with the above statement I made, because like many statements you have responded to, you are misconstruing what was actually said, as evidenced here:

"I am not in any significant "minority" on thinking Panther gets past Lizard because of a combination on speed, skill and tech."

With my statement of you being in the minority, we are talking about Panther clearing this, nothing else. Basing this tally on direct votes:

Panther Clears: 3

Panther Does not clear: 24

Unclear on their vote or "could go either way": 3

Now, maybe your definition of a minority differs from mine and the populace at large, but 4 is a lot less than 22...which would seem to still leave you in the minority. But, if we want to break down the numbers to getting past Lizard...roughly 7 in total full on believe he'll beat Lizard (not all of that number believes he clears though), roughly 3 (maybe four if you count jashro's later statement) are 50/50 on whether or not he actually get's past Lizard, and roughly 19-20 have stated a belief he stops at or before the Lizard. 19-20 is more than 7...hell, even adding the 3 that are 50/50 to that, 20 is more than 10, 10 is less than 20...meaning a smaller amount of people believe that he can get past or has a 50/50 shot of getting past the Lizard...which still puts you in the minority.

"And a quick look at the posts on this thread show that at least half of the people who have posted believe the same thing"

I think you need to get your eyes checked then, because that is just not true, but hey, let's clear up this business about your statements with T'challa, Spider-Man, and speed. Your statement right here, directly from post #48, on page 1 of the thread:

"in fact there is evidence that T'challa is FASTER than Spider-Man!"

Then you do back track a little with this, at least trying to paint his speed as being on par:

"there has been MORE than enough examples over the years to show that he is AT LEAST on par with Parker's speed"

This statement here, and paint the picture of Panther "surpassing him":

"Panther had gotten faster since that time too, easily keeping pace with Parker (and therefore still surpassing him) even BEFORE the King Of The Dead upgrade (and has avoided and tagged Parker since that Marvel Team Up adventure on more than one occasion); with the upgrade, he is STILL faster."

But when static brought up the fact that he has never been shown to be faster than Spidey, you come back with this:

"I gave an example of when he was shown to be; it is reprinted by a poster above."

Then when static and jash still disagree with you, suddenly, like a swimmer in a pool, you start doing the backstroke:

"I did not state (nor did I mean to imply) that T'challa is WAAAAY faster than Parker"

But, if we go back to post 48...

"in fact there is evidence that T'challa is FASTER than Spider-Man!"

Very interesting chain of events indeed. But in your response to them...

"you seem to acknowledge that Panther has MORE than enough stats and feats to show that he is definately on par with Parker, AND that in fact there are legitimite arguments that he is faster"

No, they don't agree with you. What did jashro say(?):

"I would say black panther is fast enough to tag Peter based on consistency but I think spider-man is faster."

He said he was fast enough to tag him, but Spidey was faster. And what did static say (?):

"Other than that, he's not even close to Spidey in terms of speed."

Black Panther is indeed fast. He is not as fast as Spidey. Could he tag Spidey in a fight? Sure, I won't deny that, but this is not based on speed alone. You know what is often used to counter speed in comics? Skill. And Black Panther is extremely skilled. A tactically brillaint mind knowing how and where to hit with metahuman stats of his own...sounds like a good counter for speed to me. So this here:

"The only thing the "certain Panther experts" are debating is whether Panther is faster than Spider-Man, and if you read what they wrote, they think that is possible"

That is just plain wrong, and a bold faced lie. They agree Panther has what it takes to tag Spidey, but they don't agree on Panther being faster or on par.

"And finally, I'm not "mad", just animated---passionate, if you will."

Fine thin line you have there between passion and anger, but you seem awfully angry and bitter over people not agreeing with you=)

With that said, come on back in here and try and backtrack some more, misconstrue some more statements, pat yourself on the back till your arm falls off, call people Bieber fans, and just generally do whatever it is you kids do to amuse yourselves, or read it and then come back and tell me how you didn't bother to read it (come on, we all know you did), it is all good. Just have fun with it, and stop being so angry and bitter about people not agreeing with you. It's just a comic book forum bud.

I await your response with bated breath=)

(No offense, but I probably won't respond, no need to drag this out any further)

@wyldsong: After our lovely time together, are you ACTUALLY implying that I don't have the "guts" to address you DIRECTLY if I want to? Are you HIGH? Or are you perhaps suffering from the same type of delusion as the other poster who seems to think he is some kind of ACTION HERO (TM) and you're someone to fear, or something? GraniteSoldier was the last one to tag and address me directly, so I responded to him. Now that I just became aware that you addressed me, I'm responding to you. See how that works? Quite simple---like your last post.

You are certainly entitled to your perception of things, but like your flawed opinion of the topic of this thread, they are hopelessly flawed. I didn't "backtrack" on anything, Static Shock and Jashro44 go back and forth over Panther's feats-especially the Stegron and Sabertooth ones-to determine that Panther is right up there with Parker, but not WAAAAY faster, laflux INDEED states that Panther can get past Lizard (and even says he doesn't know why he and I are still arguing on the point) etc., etc.---so what are you going on about?

I stopped responding to you earlier because you seemed to be going through a second childhood phrase (your "nany nany boo boo" period as I termed it); if you converse with me rationally, I'll respond in kind to you. If you DON'T respond to me, that's cool too---the actions of some random, no name (and ultimately insignificant) poster is of no concern to me one way or the other, "bud".The "oh so cool, this thread is no big deal" psuedo fascade you attempt-and fail-to put on is amusing. And kudoos to you to having so much idle time to check---but my previous statement concerning what apparent majorities think (as I outlined in my "Beiber" and other examples) still stands, so your long winded monologue is ABYSMALLY moot.

The bottom line (and back on topic) is that Panther can clear, and nothing you have babbled has disproved that (ESPECIALLY the notions that a forcefield that has resisted the things Static Shock laid out it has can be breached by the Lizard, or that energy daggers that have utterly destroyed steel, pierced and shut down Iron Man's force fields, or phased intangibly through Ultron then solidified and affected him won't be DEVASTATING to the less durable Lizard). Respond back or not, makes no difference to me. But thanks once again for providing a fresh round of entertainment and amusement, and if you want to provide more by all means welcome. In the meantime, due to skill, speed, combat acumen, and tech---when going against the Spider-Man villians guantlet: BLACK PANTHER WINS.

I've seen no evidence to suggest that Panther's speed matches or surpasses Spidey's.

The examples that I've stated that don't even imply nor indicate that, as they all illustrate examples of Panther's speed in comparison to other characters who are also not as fast as Spidey is.

I don't know about Jashro, but no. That isn't what I determined.

@static_shock: Static, If he has tagged Parker REPEATEDLY over the years, run rings around Logan more than once (whereas Parker in at least two battles spanning many years has barely avoided Logan's swings-once even, during a double sized book that revealed the secret identity of the Hobgoblin, remarking how rare it was someone to be so close to striking him that he could feel the breeze (from Wolverine's swings), not to mention the Stegron and Sabertooth incidents---it just doesn't seem feasible that Panther is not in Parker's league. If you don't think so, I'll stand corrected---but feats would indicate that it is so. And, unlike some characters who, despite their skilll, are just HUMAN, and it's total PIS to show them coming anywhere NEAR Parker, Panther from the get go has been portrayed as META human because of the heart shaped herb (running rings around Cap, being fast enough-from a far distance-to jump into Sue Richard's personnal space before she could close her force field, etc.). If you aren't in Spider-Man's class, you wouldn't be shown running rings around people that give Parker a hard time, tagging Parker on a consistent basis, and even oudoing Parker (the Stegron incident).

This is not about saying this because I "like" Panther better (I "like" Nightwing WAAAAAY better than Parker or Panther, for instance, but I wouldn't say he matches them in speed because facts and feats don't show that, and that's what I go by). But SEVERAL facts and feats show that Panther is ABSOLUTELY in Parker's league.

@granitesoldier: Oh, boy. In my last post, when I mentioned Nightwing, a flash of memory hit me. Don't know why---these things can be random, I guess---but it stirred something in my memory. As I scrawled up this page to see a previous post (in order to respond to Static Shock again) I saw something I typed-"things get lost in translation on a cold web site screen". That made me remember typing something similliar on another thread. My memory went back and forth---

Then I knew. I typed something like that to you previously.

Doing a little checking, I found that I typed that to you on a thread entitled "Nightwing and (Barbara Gordon) Batgirl vs. Matt Murdock". After you initially thought I was getting on you because I ran down a list of Grayson's feats to show he could take DD alone, you acknowledged the mix up, and we parted cool, noting how things can be mis construed on a blank web site screen. Nightwing is one of my favorites, so I really appreciated that---and we've gone from THAT to THIS?

Yeeeeeeesh.

In the words of Lobo (when, in the middle of battlilng Aquaman, discovered that they both shared a mutual respect and admiration for Dolphins):

"Frag. Now I gotta be civil".

I still believe that Panther clears, but any friend of Nightwing is a friend of mine. As I have been multi tasking on different threads ON the 'Vine and OFF it simutaneously (including some POLITICAL sites, where things REALLY get agressive) I think I transposed some of that on you earlier. Oh, yikes, Yikes, YIKES!!!

If you read that Nightwing/Murdock/Batgir thread, I can agressively, but civil-ly debate with the best of them. As you apologized to me then, I apologize to you now. Sorry about that.