Comic Book Question of the Week: Treatment of Female Characters

Are we talking about how these female characters are dressed here or whether they are respected enough to carry their own titles over the years. I'm thinking the latter, so don't take the Red Sonya post the wrong way because she's dressed provocative! My focal point is on which company has allowed them to showcase in their own title the most over time. I say Marvel without a doubt outshines the rest! just trying to stay on topic here !

@kriminal: Why do you say that comics are made for guys?

My vote goes to Image, because their titles carry such a vast, varied representation of female characters. They're all different, from badass killing machine Forever Carlyle to mother-on-the-run Alana to superpowered athlete Mara to smoldering femme fatale Josephine. Some are strong, some are vulnerable, some make choices that we don't like, but they're all given a chance in their various titles, and not necessarily bound to marketing and merchandising initiatives like the women of the Big 2.

@missj:

I don't mean they are only for guys, I know many girls read them and that's cool. but the majority are guys, and it is the target audience. its like sports, many girls watch them, but if you buy a sports illustrated or espn magazine the advertisements have girls wearing sexy clothing due to the fact that more guys like sports than girls. my main point was i actually like that girls in comics are drawn sexy because i am a guy. does that mean they shouldn't get good writers or more on goings, of course not. i only read marvel and dc with the exception of tmnt and i think they do a good job giving their women proper spotlight

if you say anything other than Image then you are not reading comics right now.

As far as marvel vs dc women treatment go, i really think Marvel is on the right track. Look at characters like Ms. Marvel now Captain Marvel, a very inspirational female lead character with a very appropriate design to boot. They also finally decided to put some cloths on Psylocke who is now sporting a more tasteful ninja look now.

I think this is really hard to answer. But it feels like Gail Simone is a creator with a good sense of this. But she's working with different publishers now, so...

@kriminal: That's strange; I bet if I asked any creator, publisher, or even athlete why they do what they do, they'd say it's for fans, and gender wouldn't even come up.

then why do female characters have sexist costumes? its to sell more because the majority of comic fans are guys, am I right? I might be wrong but that is my understanding, and I really can't find another logical reason for it.

I think its too hard a question for me to personally answer. I just appreciate the general trend that things are getting better. The smaller companies should generally be a bit better in depicting female characters because they should be better at providing interesting, unique and original characters and plots in general. they have to overcompensate that the two bigger companies have bigger presence culturally, more star power and so on. It can be a bit like comparing indie art house films to Hollywood movies. So I give the smaller companies a nod, but in a sense its business also because they are aware they have to try and hook in readers and so a different approach is required than the big two and a different audience might be better catered too. So I also can't look past various efforts at DC and Marvel to do good stories with cool females. It can just be annoying when fans don't seem to care (Journey Into Mystery says hello) but also some creators seem a bit clueless with gender topics too (lets have Sentry mate up Rogue because a teenager with anxiety about physical and emotional closeness really just wants to have sex with anyone that she can tough right) and we have so many situations where fans have asked valid questions about gender only to be dismissed by creators.

Another large factor is that gender doesn't exist in a bubble. People can have different ideas and understanding about it and whats exploitive, necessary, demeaning. That and adding business? So what creators think versus what creators sell versus how customers buy and prefer. Those things don't always align and sometimes ideas not only fail to align, sometimes they clash and oppose. I always thought X-Men did well as far as gender and diversity in general, but then they went through a long period where its flagship book lacked that quality and strength. There was this repeated line that I can't recall was confirmed or not that with the new 52 no female characters would be wearing skirts, but uh its not the characters clothing that is inherently a problem. Fictional characters, its a combination of things, outfits, characterization, artist, angles an artist uses to draw the characters etc and also balance and context. Sometimes a male and female character can be dressed skimpy but also be empowering based on their personality or attitude.

I don't think the idea/argument that Wonder Woman is comics only iconic character holds any weight as far as which company treats characters better, not only that I think its a disservice to DC as well. Characters like Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman, become iconic through time and exposure but also their competition. Take any modern day character and insert them into the comic scene 60 to 50 years ago and that character will have a better than average chance of being huge today provided they always appeared in a comic series as a star and had cartoons and TV shows around them. Wonder Woman's current comic series in a sense under performs unfortunately given her global status, iconic status and familiarity culturally, so does Superman and Batman comics too, but thats because those characters transcend comics. Many female comic characters are just as strong, written just as well, are as interesting and well defined but they live in an age where their are thousands and thousands of other characters a bit like them. That competition is good because it will bred more options and choices for customers, but its bad as far as creating the next big superstar character/pop culture figure. Thats a lot more complicated.

Great question, and always enjoy reading posters ideas and answers to it.

@kriminal said:

There are usually a few interconnecting and overlapping reasons, and that includes some creators being conscious of the idea that many males form an established fan base for the product they seek to sell, but its not that simple either. They don't want to just sell to males, and not all males are same, its like any individual aspect of a person. Aesthetics in comics in general is important, and sometimes costumes look a certain way based on perceptions and those perceptions in fact can and will change depending on artists and times. Many outfits aren't even inherently sexist but only sexist in a given context. Artists aren't hired on how sexy the outfits they give characters, they are hired on an ability to try and make everything look good, and that can include female characters, and male characters, and buildings and cars and aliens and so on. Male readers are also attracted to stories with fleshed out characters, unique plots, power fantasies, so being pandered too and can actually hurt a books sales.

Short version sexist costumes don't really exist to sell more to the male majority in comics idea. Its a factor but not the only one, and most of the writers, editors artists etc know its not that simply. Most comic art styles tended to be stylized for example, rather than photo realistic because it took less time, and you could emphasize details that helped a story. You see this in cartoons too, so many earlier comic characters and cartoons had characters that clothing was intended to accentuate them in some way. Heroes were muscle bound, female love interests had hourglass figures and long hair. Clothing was meant to make them look attractive as well, and this was true for males as well, just typical western ideals about beauty in regards to gender in a basic and general way use to mean men = broad shoulders, strong postures, nice jaw lines and muscles. Clothing would attempt to emphasis this too. For females = full lips, graceful, flexible posturing, long hair etc and clothing would be an accessory to help this too. Ideas and views about gender and style and fashion would change and adapt but based on what came from before rather than huge revisions.

Emma Frost had one of the most revealing and sexualized outfits in her time under Grant Morrison's pen and Quitely's pencil but she was hugely popular with many female characters and male characters. Oh sorry my short version ended up being longer than my long version =p - I don't think your understanding is wrong per say mind you, just there is a lot more to it. Many artists try to draw male characters as sexy as the female characters, do you notice how sexy male characters are? Does it bother you how sexy they are? Many females also like the female characters looking sexy too, but both male and female readers can dislike being pandered to gratuitously or seeing characters mistreated or gender depiction ruining a comic they might have otherwise disliked. Thats usually a blurry line in a way where gender can be over simplified because of the assumption that all guys want sexy drawn (or dressed) female characters and all females don't. So on.

Shorter shorter version is that there a few reasons why sexist/sexy outfits exist besides drawing money from males. ^_^

This is a pretty loaded question, and as I don't read all industries' comics, I can't justifiably vote. Each company, determined by industry traits, has been guilty of portraying women in substandard ways, and will be quick to jump on to the next trend without a beat.

@evilvegeta74: you totally misread what i wrote. will try to make myself more clear. i never said marvel hasnt put out female lead books before, i said they havent put out multiple titles at the same time before. trust that i own every female super powered book rather its solo or ongoing: witches, spider-woman, she-hulk, magik, rogue, emma, etc etc i have them all, i know my history and only speak of what i know. for years i wanted what is happening in marvel now to happen. i go to dc and i have catwoman, batgirl, supergirl, wonder woman, birds of prey (and for a time zatanna and power girl) to read. go to marvel and im lucky if i can get a female mini-series. let's look at some dates: the last ongoing for spiderwoman ended in 83, the last she-hulk book ended in 2009, ms. marvel ended april 2010, x-23 started that november to replace it only to be replaced by captain marvel the following year. NONE of these books have ever made to a hundred. catwoman, a villan, a character that some of yall act like you despise has consistently had an ongoing since the 1993 and waaay surpassed the number of issues the marvel female books have lasted and lets not even talk about wonder woman and her over 600 issues. dont get your fanboy panties in a twist cause you love marvel over dc, this isnt a marvel vs dc thing its about facts. my favorite hero is jean grey (marvel) i started reading comics because of x-men (marvel) i know way more about the history of the marvel universe, items, places, people right down to their birthdays but im not going to let my love of marvel delude me to the truth. wusha, wusha, goddess bless

Yet the community went bat @%^$ crazy when DC put diana in pants and a jacket. What is really needed is more female writers.

There may always be a place for red sonja and her chainmail bikini (ouch) and deja thoris and her jewlery. But it has gottin better power girls and pyslock sporting full body coverage for example.

This question reminds me of a blog I wrote. Female characters have come a long way but there are a lot of things they can still do.

http://mycomicexperience.blogspot.com/2013/08/no-smart-women-in-comics.html

@husk: I completely disagree with you. It seems as though you're just looking for a reason to be upset about this. So far She has been depicted as her own person. Strong in her beliefs and convictions. Yet she has also been shown to be affectionate dowager superman. People always say "if it happens in real life then why shouldn't it happen in comics" in real life at least the majority of the time people don't just meet one person and remain with them forever without ever dating anyone else. It's totally logical that two attractive people who are always around one another and who both feel like outsiders and who both have the same drive to help/protect people would at least try to see if they could work together. It has been poorly handled in the past but as I always say a good writer can make anything work. You're not giving this a chance to w good before you dismiss it as bad. We all know this will end eventually so we may a well enjoy the character development and the undoubtedly interesting and action packed stories while dc gives them to us.

Interesting that Marvel is getting such a strong push here. For me, I have to go with the company that puts their money in their characters. So while Marvel has a list of really cool female heroes that are all solid from Storm to Squirrel Girl, but you only have a handful that have their own books, or on female driven teams. Captain Marvel is leading the way, but they cancelled Sif's book, and Red She Hulk as well, there just isn't a big presence on the shelves for the ladies.

Image as well, alot of good characters, not alot of starring titles

SO I have to go with DC for having the most books with female leads on the shelfs

I hear what you are saying and feel like we are chipping at the same sides of the same brick yet for different purposes. While you are stating that Dc has had multiple female titles of recent times , you know as well as I that those titles will only get cancelled only to return later. The same can be said of Marvel, I stand firm by my belief that marvel has had more female characters in their own titles than Dc and on any day! Mini' series and all we can go back to Captain Marvel/Photon Monica Rambeau and progress forward. Tom, Dick and Jane knows about Wonder Woman she's a icon, don't see the point in mentioning her issue number, she's only been around since 1942. .At anyrate I see your boastfulness about your knowledge of the marvel universe. One would even think you have been drinking mead with Hercules and Thor the way you are boasting. Well guess what and don't take this the wrong way, but " it ain't what you know, it's what you can prove"! Also I'd be hard pressed to believe -(that trust that i own every female super powered book rather its solo or ongoing: witches, spider-woman, she-hulk, magik, rogue, emma, etc etc i have them all). That would mean you could tell me what happen in a certain Dazzler mini from the 80's on a particular page. I wouldn't do that to you! There's no need to exaggerate the truth here!

Captain Marvel and Fearless Defenders are both well ahead of where we've been for over a decade. Journey Into Mystery and Red She-Hulk were also good ones...unfortunate they got canned.

Honestly feels like Marvel has a real push on for female characters right now. They seem to have taken the criticism to heart this year, and pushed several well known titles as female books, and teams that used to be mixed now have only female characters etc. It's an interesting experiment. Doesn't hurt that Marvel has so may of the top female writers and artists under contract.

Avengers Arena should also get some recognition here for interesting and honest depictions of women and girls. Not every woman/girl in there has the same motivations, and they interact in generally interesting ways (mostly).

Even Hawkeye (Hawkguy) has some interesting relationships that aren't entirely about sex. Clint's past done caught up with him, and the "work wife"/"ex-wife"/"girlfriend"/"daughter" thing is really interesting.

Marvel.

@pokeysteve:

And how many Women in marvel have strong personalities and self-respect(Quite a few)? Theres a difference between she's dressed like a slut because it is apart of her character i.e. the white queen and shes dressed like a slut because DC thought it looks good on her i.e. Harley Quinn. It's part of White Queens personality and mystic to be "sexy". Kinda like the pre-new 52 poison ivy. But Wonder Woman, Power Girl, and Supergirl? Being slutty is not a key component to their character. It's not apart of there mystic. so why are they dressed like sluts?

That's why alot of people feel Marvel does women better. The reason why their was no all women team in marvel comics? because they didn't feel obligated too? They didn't feel like "Hey, we have a female team here! see?! We aren't sexist!" Alot of marvel females have strong roles in other comics. She hulk is the one female I can think of that is wearing what I consider to be inappropriate for her character... but at the same time you have to wonder... what the hell is she suppose to wear when she hulks out? Bra and panties? because the hulk is basically wearing underwear..... so in hindsight She-hulks garments makes sense. It's basically stylized underwear so she won't hulk out and end up completely nude.

Wonder Woman though? I see absolutely no reason why she should be wearing A one piece bikini... especially as an amazon warrior.... Lets take in mind that her fellow amazons wear classical greek/roman warrior skirts.

Why do people insist on ignoring the fact that DC did try to change the costume and was blasted by the community for it?Same with Power girl

Also just because you think short skirts and boob windows are sluty doesn't mean everyone does.

The question is: What publisher PORTRAYS women the best. Not who has the most female books. DC does not portray women well at all. Either too slutty, or too fake or not slutty at all but feels the need to dress slutty. Marvel on the other hand has an excellent portrayal of women(in comparison to DC)

When PowerGirl had a more conservative costume, Her suit got ripped up(leaving her almost completely naked by books ends) like every other issue.

Wonder Woman is now in a relationship with Superman. The strongest woman in the world decides to fall in love with the only person who is her physical superior... They are not equals. New 52 Superman is clearly more powerful then Wonder woman. If they were presented as equals then yes sure, most people would be Ok with it. But they are not.

True.All the more reason why they should have stuck with the boob window.

Thats is a entirely different conversion.So i will only replay by saying.'Well thats like..your opinion man.'

I didn't mean to set you off on a rant haha. I never mentioned Marvel at all. Just saying it shouldn't matter what they wear because it doesn't define who they are.

With Wonder Woman, it would be pretty hard do martial arts in leather pants like they had her in before.

Wonder Woman is now in a relationship with Superman. The strongest woman in the world decides to fall in love with the only person who is her physical superior... They are not equals. New 52 Superman is clearly more powerful then Wonder woman. If they were presented as equals then yes sure, most people would be Ok with it. But they are not.

If people could actually DECIDE who to fall in love with, the world would be pretty great. People have been talking about that pairing for decades so DC made it happen. What is the alternative? Have Clark mope after Lois for a few years? They had excellent chemistry pre 52 so DC is giving it a shot. I don't see how that makes her any less of a woman.

The majority of women are physically weaker than most men. It's biology. How in the f**kity f**k f**k does that take away from her character!?!? It would be way more weird if they put her with a little tiny squirrely guy. Reverse feminism.

I see your point... but your missing mine...a good writer can't take the stigma out of it...a good writer can't take the pain away...I don't care how well written a super hero named Marquis de sade is, you can't remove the thoughts that the character will be revolting and abhorrent, you can't remove the original premise of his work. No matter how hard you try, or what steps you do to change the character of the relationship to one of good standing, you can't remove the the history this relationship has had, we can't forget the insults, we can't forget how much rage we felt the times we saw it before. its not like it was done horribly once, and that was it... its been done horribly SEVERAL times, and each time piled on the insults more than the last.

Im not saying Wonderwoman isn't being written well recently..she is, and I was in her corner until this happened., its just this, one...big, insulting reminder of the oppressed past Wonder Woman has had...in the last two decades...that's pretty recent.

to recent for me not to be angry...

I really don't understand why every female in comics got a pair of knockers

@truemarvel: isn't element woman on thejl??

I think it's ridiculous to say that comics are made for guys. That may be how it appears practically, but it surely is not the intent.

I also think it's ridiculous anytime a female character is solely there to look good or be an attractive plot device.

Having said that, there is a lot of exaggerated nonsense when it comes to how females in comic books.

Anytime any female character is killed or harmed and a male character reacts, there are accusations of fridging all around, which most of the time it isn't fridging at all.

Then you have people criticizing the way women dress. A lot of the time this is warranted...but a lot of the time it isn't. In the real world, women tend to show more skin then men. They may show midriff, or cleavage, or legs.

Comic book heroes tend to have exaggerated physiques, men and women, and they both show them off.

Having Huntress who is just human running around in short shorts is idiotic...I don't know why she wouldn't be wearing armor. Having Power girls costume be a cleavage window is beyond stupid. But look at Wonder Woman's or Catwoman's costumes for example...they are practical and show off bodies, without being (in my opinion) exploitative or objectifying.

Essentially I don't think there is too much of an issue. Comic books as a medium have done a lot of catching up and still have a way to go, but for the most part I think female characters are treated with respect. Especially outside of DC and Marvel.

I had complained about cosplaying Wondie recently and friends have bombarded me with these amazing fanarts http://imgur.com/a/OZU9j. I think this type of costume would make a lot of sense. Injustice's WW design is pretty cool as well. Also, what killed current WW run for me is not lack of pants but the fact that Amazons are now murderous rapists who trade babies for weapons they can't apparently make themselves.

Huntress now has full bodysuit with utility belt and some armor. As far as I know, no one complained. PG's full bodysuit design was pretty generic imo but most fans got around it eventually. However, suit was completely shredded by the end of each issue. I'd rather go with a boob window.

I don't think quantity = quality. Marvel has been trying pretty hard lately. DC's been doing some stupid things (nothing new). I'll vote for Image.

Well you heard it, Batman, take those off, they make you a bad martial artist.

He doesn't wear leather and rules don't apply to Batman because he's Batman. I don't like it either.

Where did they specify that WW's pants are made exactly of leather? Any male martial artist I can think of wears some sort of tight pants. Anyway, on WW some Greek\Roman inspired clothing would make much more sense. And this whole thread is too much about clothing, really.

On a side note, I own pair of leather pants and for the last 10 years and I think them as one of the most comfortable pants ever, with exception of flannel pajamas. Just make sure that leather they made of are really high quality.

It was a guess on my part. They always drew them to shine. I don't think they'd be uncomfortable it's just your mobility would be limited. Tight pants can still be flexible. leather usually is not. I like the classic Wonder Woman costume with the dangley skirt thing you see from fan art sometimes. That could translate well too screen if they EVER get around to it.

I can't wait till it's colder so I can start wearing PJs again. I'm in AZ. It was 90ish today...

I somehow don't think Dynamite's gonna win this one. Ah well. ::shrugs::

Gotta tell you, kind of bodice she has is a HELL to wear. Twist around too much and Daily Planet will have WW's nipple slip on a front page. Not to mention the constriction that keeps it in shape. I always assume superheroes have their clothing made of mysterious super resilient\bendy\stretchy fabrics, this can explain how they are wearing what they are wearing and don't go change their clothes every battle or so.

Sorta like this one? Yeah, I like it too. With this, anyone could more or less guess about her origins. And, wow, this became so much about WW's clothes. I really don't think fully clothed = good female character. Emma Frost is one of my personal favorites.

You know, I always think the same thing. People are so focused on her bottom half they completely overlook that constricting top half. That metal plate on the front can't be comfortable.

Their clothes would have to be stretchy. Have to be. We know Spidey's are cause he wears them under his clothes. Same with Supe. Pre 52 anyways.

That picture is exactly what I'm talking about. Same costume but that little touch makes it look legit.

Back on topic though, I agree. Clothes don't necessarily make the character. WW is one of my personal favorites if you haven't figured that out. Cavewoman is literally naked sometimes but Root writes her to be so simple and interesting.

I actually adore WW as well, but you probably couldn't tell by my comments, I tend to critique things I like, cough. It's just the current Amazon history canon that irks me, but whatever.

I'm fine with whatever they are wearing as long as it makes sense. She-Hulk's leotard makes sense - her cousin runs around in pajama pants. Catwoman 'dominatrix' suit make sense with her personality, as well as with all the variations of her origin. Captain Marvel's redesign made sense due to her being in military and all that. Power Girl/Supergirl, in my opinion, don't have reason to not wear full bodysuits similar to their cousin's, however I've never had a problem with PG's outfit due to the way she was written. In my opinion, Supergirl's skirt made way less sense than 'boob window'. Like, what do you need a skirt for, you are flying around and flashing your panties anyway, in fact, it just makes it all worse.

Wow, I'm so sorry for derailing this so much into the off topic. I blame the fact that I should've been in the bed for about 6 hours now.

Critiquing things is human nature. As long as you're not an ass about you'll be ok here haha. Don't get me started on New 52 Wonder Woman. The Amazon's revision is the least of her problems.

Power Girl's boob window was ok with me because she sort of became that joke character but not really. It's like they gave her those huge boobs and then just went with it. Supergirl's skirt always bothered me even though it suits her personality. It's so much fun reading her older stuff and seeing how the artist draws his way out of up-skirt shots. Supergirl in the animated series is even more fun to watch because she has that tiny shirt they have to work around too.

It's kind of on topic a little sort of maybe...

with all its cannceled titles and only 3 titles nowdays and never a single time where they let a female get the spotlight over her male counterpart?,no,i don't think marvel can be considered the best when it comes to females.

@evilvegeta74:first female to have a solo title,wonder woman,then super girl,batgirl,catwoman,huntress,katana,birds of prey,zatana,power girl,etc,DC,and unlike marvel,wonder woman,super girl,batgirl and catwoman have been going strong for many,many decades,so yes DC wins at that.

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I'm not sure what you are saying here aside of Dc's WW having a title in comics first then Miss America for Marvel in 1944. Marvel has had a history of stopping titles at issue 50 as far as runs go with female characters. At anyrate you named eight Dc female characters with one of them(Katana finally getting a title in 2013)curious about the mention. Well I can name many more female characters who have appeared in their own titles mini-series and all. Shall I name some of them starting from Valkyrie going backwards or skipping Anglela(wasn't marvel then) going in alphabetical order starting with Captain Marvel/ Photon/ Monica Rambeau. Marvel has allowed more females to be in titles regardless of how long the titles ran.

@evilvegeta74:DC has had and still has more titles with females.

The vote is in Marvel received 41% of the votes, I have no more to say !

so?,that only means that more marvel fans voted,doesn't mean most people think marvel does it better,they don't,most of their females have no development,they don't have their own rogue gallery and depth.

The thing about what you said is this, this wasn't between marvel and dc, there were more selections available! Apparently the people who voted for marvel disagree with your statement. Also Dc fans wouldn't go as far as saying",. most of their females have no development, they don't have their own rogue gallery and depth". I have no idea what you saying here in this statement!

not everybody voted,i didn't vote for example,so it doesn't mean most people here think marvel does it better,not to mention there are many other sites on the internet.

and yes most marvel females don't have enough development and don't have their own rogue gallery,they usually share the b list villans that their male counterparts don't use.