Wonderwoman - most skillful fighter

I say his posts can be broken down into the word, "Nu-uh!" and his reply is,

I guess Wonder Woman is superior after all. What sad news for Batman, the news that this is the level of his fans.

@makhai: Bait.

In a sense, yes. But the difference between your baiting and mine is that you are baiting to troll. I am baiting you to coax you into debating like an adult. Feel like you are up to the task? Let's see what you have got.

It's factually driven, I am afraid. I encourage you to look up what the word 'fact' means before you try to make some waste of space post, which seems to be habit for you. Until you can address what was said below, you are doing nothing but trolling this thread. I will flag this post for trolling and any future posts where you troll here as well. You have nothing to contribute, you're done.

I apologize Jayc, but I must now flag your off-topic posts. If you still have enough karma to continue crying about something that happened half a year ago and has no relation to this thread, you won’t for long. I plan to flag every post where you whined about nonsense.

You also failed to address my previous posts. All you managed to do with your post is bleat about the past and stick your fingers in your ears about the current discussion. This is why you were flagged.

If you don’t want to speak with me, that’s fine. I am more than happy to watch you tuck your tail and run. You haven’t been able to successfully mount a decent argument for your side anyway. So it isn’t like this thread is going to be worse off without you.

Sorry but your request is going to be ignored. I am not going to avoid talking to you when you say something that makes no sense and that should be addressed in a debate. If that scares you, and it clearly does, don’t post in debate threads. Debate threads are a place where ideas, opinions, and positions are challenged. If you can’t stand having your arguments deconstructed so soundly, perhaps it is you that should refrain from replying to those that have defeated you. Avoiding you would require that I remember who you are and given how this debate has gone, I can’t see myself doing that.

I confirmed with Mat (Inferior Ego) that there is no such thing as a ‘CV restraining order’ unless serious abuse has happened and those issues usually result in a ban anyway. Considering no such thing has happened in this thread (such as personal threats and talk of banned subjects like rape), I can only recommend that you grow some thicker skin, if having your ideas opposed causes you to lose all control. You might even want to talk to SC about your interactions here. He might be able to offer you some comforting words.

Is there some rule on this site that makes it impossible to question someone’s opinion or point out flaws in arguments? If there is, please direct me to it so I can be aware of changes to the site. You made your position clear, I commented on that position because it related to Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman is the topic I have been trying to discuss since but you insist on discussing your hurt feelings and bruised ego. I am not qualified to address any issues you might have with people not liking what you have to say on the internet. If you want information on how to find a qualified person, I know some mods are more than happy to help you in this regard. As for me and what I am interested in talking about, let’s get back to the Wonder Woman thing, yeah?

I’m not sure what relevance previous exchanges have here. It seems like you are trying to make a fuss to distract from your inability to mount a proper argument on the topic of this thread. If that is the case, wouldn't it be easier to just admit that while you may feel a certain way about a subject, you are unable to mount a proper reply? That would at least be losing with dignity.

And just to solidify the fact that you have not been debating the issue, the last post you made that even was on topic was post 114. To which I made a reply that was not even addressed in any reasonable form or fashion. Please, if you don’t want to debate, that is fine. But if you do actually want to debate, then you are going to have to stop ignoring the post below:

I suppose that depends on how loosely you decide you want to use the word ‘proof’. I have provided evidence of her fighting ability and have provided nearly countless references that disprove every argument that you have attempted to make. Deconstructing your reasoning isn’t exactly the most challenging thing I have ever done, on this site or anywhere else. As for evidence that she is on Batman’s level, I have indeed provided evidence in this matter. Once again, you simply ignore that which you find inconvenient.

Believe it or not, you actually did say that she needed 60 years of feats to be credible. You simply didn’t realize you did and contradicted yourself in the exact same paragraph. I tossed out a hypothetical, claiming it was preposterous and you defended it as a logical and sound position to assume regarding her combat ability. So if you are unsure as to why I act as though you did, perhaps you should take more care in your replies, so you don’t appear as though you are not sure of what debating stance you wish to assume?

I am glad you asked that question. ‘Are Amazonians superior to humans in physicals?’ Yes and no. It depends on the Amazon you are referring to. Not that it should matter though, if you think Batman can beat Captain America, when why would an Amazon be that much harder? I mean after all, you probably wouldn’t say that Amazon fodder could beat Captain America. As for the fights in question, it was a mixed bag of powerless Amazons and Amazons whose origins could not be determined that had beaten Batman. And why wouldn’t you be impressed when fodder rings Batman’s bell? Mild superior stats are not something Batman is ill-equipped to combat. But I am happy you took a debating position that requires you to oppose this statement. I am going to remind you of your statement whenever it pleases me; your belief that Batman cannot handle mildly enhanced stats when coupled with what you claim is unimpressive combat ability.

Coming back to the feats in question though, Artemis was a fighter that defeated Batman in simple H2H combat and she is Bana, which means she has no enhancements. She not only defeated Batman, she did it with ease. If we put Artemis’ feats against Batman up against Ra’s, well then they are just about equal in terms of how many times that they have faced off in a 1v1 and certainly more than Batman One Million. I bet there are many other characters with a similar track record with Batman that you accept without question, as well. How about those examples that you ignored? Artemis is without question, Wonder Woman’s inferior in martial arts. Fascinating, no?

How can my original statement be wrong when I managed to coax you into admitting to my original claim only two posts after such a claim was made? Did you already forget? Allow me to refresh your memory:

“If she beat batman in a depowered fight yes I would chalk it up to bad storytelling considering batman has vastly better feats and statements than her.”

Well then, this sure is incriminating, now isn’t it? If you don’t mind, I would appreciate it if you would take one position and stick with it. Jumping from one opinion to the next isn’t really making for a strong argument. There is no falsification, these are your words. That is a sentence that was lifted directly from your post and until you decide to really debase yourself and edit your post, it will be all the evidence I need to verify that you indeed have a bias against Wonder Woman where it concerns her combat ability.

I am going to assume that since you decided to avoid my previous questions, that you lack the ability to furnish the references? What about my examples? Are you unable to address them because you are not aware of them? Trying to create a strawman in order to try to save face isn’t going to work against me, you should know that by now. If you don’t want to debate anymore, that is fine with me. I have more than proven my point anyway.

So the issue is that some of the Amazons have enhanced physicals but not all of them. Certainly not Artemis. Batman got the drop on Artemis and still resorted to his gear to defeat her after she had him pinned and was about to deliver a killing blow. In his second fight with her, his strategy to beating her was to simply not fight her at all. These are two fights that lend to the argument that this unenhanced Amazon warrior is on his level. Wonder Woman is superior to Artemis in every meaningful way. If she is superior to a character that was able to defeat Batman in hand to hand once and Batman preferred to not engage at all in the second, then it stands to reason, nay, it is a statement of fact that Wonder Woman would be even more dangerous than Artemis with the exception of her morals. IF you want to say that she can't beat Batman because her morals prevent her from crossing certain lines, then I would likely agree with you. But to say that she cannot possibly beat Batman in hand to hand combat, well there is just no evidence to support such a claim at all.

IS Wonder Woman the most skillful fighter? I don't know. Is she even better than Batman? Again, it is hard to say. But there is the rub; she has direct and indirect feats that support a minimum requirement to at least cause any logical thinker to ask the question. To at least ponder the possibilities when presented with the facts. She is at the very least, a fighter that Batman cannot dismiss in battle. That would be underestimating her and she is a much more serious threat than someone that has already shown the ability to defeat him.

I never said that you do not read comics. You clearly didn’t read the issues you are continually quoting a Wikipedia from, however. And no, I am not bias towards Wonder Woman in this regard. I am bias towards Wonder Woman in many things, admittedly. Such as who is a better character, who is more underrated, who is more hated and thought less of as a fighter because of misogynist sensibilities. I am sure you know what I’m talking about there.

Referencing a time that Wonder Woman defeated Batman wouldn’t matter. Even if the feats exist, they are Wonder Woman with powers, making them useless in a discussion on strictly her combat ability. You, like many others in this thread with the weakest of arguments, have fallen back on the logical fallacy that the absence of evidence is therefore an evidence of absence. It also happens to be an argument that I have already debunked, twice now in this very thread. I encourage you to go back and actually read the previous page to save me from having to repeat myself. It is only one page, surely you can extend that debating courtesy so you are no longer posting in ignorance.

Again you lifted a quote from a Wikipedia, which I already told you was false. If you insist on believing something that I can freely edit myself, would it make you feel better if I corrected the wiki in question? Would you then be willing to accept my words on whether or not Circe granted Amazons immortality? While you are thinking that one over, explain to me why Circe would grant Amazons immortality in the first place? Also, explain to me why the Bana wanted to go to Themyscira in the first place, if not for their immortality? It is a location that they, the Bana, have never seen. Even their ancestors, Hippolyta’s own sister included, did not see Themyscira. Once Hippolyta liberated the Amazons from Heracles, the gods came to take the Amazons to Themyscira if they were willing to let go of their hate. Hippolyta and her half of the Amazons did this and thus were allowed to enter the island. Hippolyta’s sister and her group were unable to forgive men for what they had done and thus, turned their backs on the gods and the gift of eternal youth.

Aside from its ability to grant limitless lifespan, the island has no value for the Bana-Mighdall. So why would they want Circe to grant them immortality for an island they felt was theirs that they had never once been to, in any generation? Furthermore, why would the Bana even want the island when Circe had already granted them eternal life? Are you starting to connect the dots?

Yes, Artemis had a bow. When did she use it during the hand to hand portion of their combat? She didn’t, nor did she have the Gauntlet of Atlas, like you had previously claimed. The dagger was presented for use after she had put Batman on the ground, once again I add, with ease. You also mentioned “Supergirl busting” strength. I am sorry but even if Artemis had the Gauntlet of Atlas, she would not have strength that would be able to harm Supergirl. So I am a little confused as to how you made the connection that she has strength on that level. Artemis is peak human for a person of her size. Through rigorous training since her infancy, she was able to push the limits of what should be possible, just like Batman had. She only can do what she does for the very same reasons Batman can do what he does, because they both were training for combat for most of (or in Artemis’ case, for her entire) lives. We don’t question Batman’s seemingly superhuman tendencies because, as I have seen fans argue, he has been training since he was a child and has also pushed the limits of what a human being can accomplish. Why then, is it so hard to accept that a female character is capable of the same thing, when she has been training long before Batman was able to start his training? Do strong female characters make you uncomfortable when they are not directly anchored under Batman’s shadow? Forgive my perceptions but it certainly does seem that way.

Artemis also didn’t have backup that influenced the battle, unless you are saying that Batman feared the possibility that an Amazon would kick him from behind, so he was never able to fully protect himself. That would be a position that I would personally find hard to believe but please, feel free to support such a position with a thorough breakdown of the scene. Will you please provide narrative on where Batman felt ill at ease, due to several scantily-clad women? Or even some kind of footnote that explains how Batman trembles at the sight of bows? It is a unique argument, so I am extremely interested to see what you can come up with.

Forgive me but I think you are confused. Nowhere did I question Batman’s ability as a fighter. I am of the firm belief that Batman is not only one of the best fighters in his universe, but he is also one of the best across several universes and even many different publisher’s universes. The list of characters that can beat Batman in a strictly hand to hand fight where both parties understand the scope of their situation is finite. Batman has, without question, few peers. However, they do exist and we can only use what we have to make our estimations. There are many characters that are readily accepted as Batman’s equal or superior that have only a handful of showings. Many have even less than what can be used for Wonder Woman, yet they are happily accepted. I ask you only to extend this same open mind to all characters, not just the ones you think are cool. Or do you only think that women can beat Batman if they have a move-reading ability?

Oh, you meant her bracelets protect her from slashing or piercing attacks? Well yes, this is true. Her bracelets are made from Zeus’ shield. Protection from the likes of bullets is the very least that the bracelets are capable of doing. However, you are incorrect in your position that they provide her any enhanced stats. It is the bracelets that are invulnerable, not Wonder Woman herself. Saying that Wonder Woman’s bracelets boosts her durability is much like saying that Batman’s armor boosts his durability. Batman is still just as durable inside and outside of his armor. It is his armor that absorbs some of the damage, however. Once again, this would not be something that need be considered in a hand to hand battle, so why are you fussing over it?

The wiki section about Magala is in fact true. But you are missing some very critical information on that particular spell. Namely that it was broken years ago because it was killing Diana and that even when it was in effect, it only resulted in changed stats and abilities when Artemis was in proximity to Diana. It was designed to give Artemis an edge in the contest for the Wonder Woman mantle, when Diana was her opponent. I did already cover this on the previous page, but it is clear that you have chosen to not keep yourself apprised of the very debate you have decided to engage in, which I find both curious and amusing.

I admit, there is some arrogance when it comes to Wonder Woman. But that only is arrogance that comes from nearly a decade on this forum, learning everything that there is to know about Wonder Woman and her proverbial family. Unfortunately for you, the only person that currently lacks understanding in this thread is you, sir. I am trying to teach you, but it is quite difficult to teach someone that closes their minds to any opinion that they find uncomfortable. I plead to your logic. Put aside your own admitted bias against Wonder Woman and simply look at the presented evidence. No logical mind would disagree with it. Are you a person of logic, or are you one of those distasteful fanboys that can be found rummaging through the scan trash bin and immediately foam at the mouth when their favorite characters have been ‘insulted’?

Those are standard Amazonian bracelets. Are you even aware of what the Gauntlet of Atlas looks like? I can furnish you with this information if you do require it. It should be noted, also, that if Artemis was indeed wearing the Gauntlet of Atlas, she wouldn’t have an identical bracelet on her other arm. It was retconned into a single gauntlet in the very next issue after it was published and Artemis only had one as her time in Patriarch’s World. Once again, I apologize, but you have been duped yet again.

I am sorry, I didn’t mean to insult you. I am only saying that scan dumping is not a replacement for a well-crafted argument. Your posts seem to indicate that you are not aware of this fact. I am not saying that you are incapable of deep thought at all, only that you are refusing to practice such an action here in this thread.

Batman managed to knock Wonder Woman out with a kick. That does not strike you as at all odd? I am at a loss for words if you think Batman somehow has the power to kick Wonder Woman hard enough to cause her to pass out, yet you call another fight Wonder Woman had with Batman terrible writing for the simple fact that she won, even with powers. The brazen disregard for any kind of reasonable thought is appalling. If I didn’t think watching you act in such a way was completely hilarious, I might be offended by willful ignorance you are displaying at the moment. Wonder Woman can force a nuclear warhead to detonate and be completely fine after the blast, yet the power in Batman’s right leg is enough to knock her out? This is the position you honestly want to take in this argument? Once again, I must ask for your forgiveness. I meant no disrespect when I laughed at you and your thought process. I just find it bewildering that this makes any kind of sense to you. Doubly so when Wonder Woman admits to being able to survive an extended time without oxygen in the very set of scans that you insist on repeatedly dumping.

But even if we ignore what is obviously poor writing, we must also accept that any character, even Batman, can be taken by surprise and struck. Being taken by surprise is not an accurate way to measure someone’s fighting ability.

If PIS is not real, then why do you dislike the story of Hiketeia and League of One? I can assure you, that plot induced stupidity is in fact, a well-known trope in writing and any other entertainment medium. Here is a brief definition of what PIS actually is, since it seems like you are unaware.

You have made a claim of fact when you say that Wonder Woman is not as skilled as that list of characters. A claim of fact allows me to ask for actual evidence to support your claim. Now that the burden of proof is on you, please provide evidence that Wonder Woman is inferior to any one of these characters in terms of fighting ability. I am of course, asking for actual evidence. Not that sad display of irrelevant scans you insist on reusing.

Suggesting that you may be insecure is not an insult. Or at least, it was not meant to be. I had no idea that you defined your self-worth by how people online see you. This must be the case if someone thinking that you are insecure makes you feel attacked.

You have provided scans, this is readily accepted by me and likely, by anyone else in this thread. However, you did not provide scans of Batman winning any legitimate hand to hand fights, save for the one where Batman one-shots a Superman-durable character with his foot… I don’t think I need to tell you how that is crushing to your own argument but I will anyway. If the best feats you can furnish are feats that are taken out of context or are of inferior writing ability to the point that no one but you finds them credible, how can you possibly be expecting to be taken seriously in a debate?

I am stunned that you would post scans of Batman running away from Cassandra and attempt to use that as evidence that he is her equal. Why not provide the scans of Cassandra casually evading his blows?

“You won’t because you know I am to smart for that and could immediately debunk them with scans of my own.”

The irony in this post has nearly hospitalized me from the split sides. I will let you think over why.

Everyone has some bias, but you might want to look up what conformational bias actually means. I don’t think it means what you think it means, my friend. I also am confused as to why you think Jayc knows what he is talking about when he was sent running for the hills after his argument was thoroughly crushed. Do you equate winning to who can shed the most tears or do you just say someone wins if they side with Batman?

I am sorry but that is once again, incorrect. Scan dumping does not prove anything when the scans are not even relevant to the thread. The scans you have provided are by and large, irrelevant. If you would like, I am willing to read through scans that actually matter in a thread that is trying to measure Wonder Woman’s fighting ability. In fact, I would welcome any evidence that you can provide that actually matter. Unfortunately, a possessed Wonder Woman does not qualify in this, nor do sparring matches that require Wonder Woman to restrain herself to an incalculable degree. Furthermore, you have not yet really addressed the Artemis argument. Trying to dismiss it is all you have done. Since that has failed, will you reassess or will you stubbornly refuse any kind of logical or reasonable thinking?

I never insulted you for using a Wikipedia as your source of information. I implied that it is bad practice and it very much is. Once again, if you choose to measure your self-worth by how you construct your arguments, perhaps you should make better arguments or simply not make arguments at all, if someone calling your argument tactics into question causes you to feel insulted.

@makhai: I've not baited you though.

@jayc1324:

It's factually driven, I am afraid. I encourage you to look up what the word 'fact' means before you try to make some waste of space post, which seems to be habit for you. Until you can address what was said below, you are doing nothing but trolling this thread. I will flag this post for trolling and any future posts where you troll here as well. You have nothing to contribute, you're done.

I apologize Jayc, but I must now flag your off-topic posts. If you still have enough karma to continue crying about something that happened half a year ago and has no relation to this thread, you won’t for long. I plan to flag every post where you whined about nonsense.

You also failed to address my previous posts. All you managed to do with your post is bleat about the past and stick your fingers in your ears about the current discussion. This is why you were flagged.

If you don’t want to speak with me, that’s fine. I am more than happy to watch you tuck your tail and run. You haven’t been able to successfully mount a decent argument for your side anyway. So it isn’t like this thread is going to be worse off without you.

Sorry but your request is going to be ignored. I am not going to avoid talking to you when you say something that makes no sense and that should be addressed in a debate. If that scares you, and it clearly does, don’t post in debate threads. Debate threads are a place where ideas, opinions, and positions are challenged. If you can’t stand having your arguments deconstructed so soundly, perhaps it is you that should refrain from replying to those that have defeated you. Avoiding you would require that I remember who you are and given how this debate has gone, I can’t see myself doing that.

I confirmed with Mat (Inferior Ego) that there is no such thing as a ‘CV restraining order’ unless serious abuse has happened and those issues usually result in a ban anyway. Considering no such thing has happened in this thread (such as personal threats and talk of banned subjects like rape), I can only recommend that you grow some thicker skin, if having your ideas opposed causes you to lose all control. You might even want to talk to SC about your interactions here. He might be able to offer you some comforting words.

Is there some rule on this site that makes it impossible to question someone’s opinion or point out flaws in arguments? If there is, please direct me to it so I can be aware of changes to the site. You made your position clear, I commented on that position because it related to Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman is the topic I have been trying to discuss since but you insist on discussing your hurt feelings and bruised ego. I am not qualified to address any issues you might have with people not liking what you have to say on the internet. If you want information on how to find a qualified person, I know some mods are more than happy to help you in this regard. As for me and what I am interested in talking about, let’s get back to the Wonder Woman thing, yeah?

I’m not sure what relevance previous exchanges have here. It seems like you are trying to make a fuss to distract from your inability to mount a proper argument on the topic of this thread. If that is the case, wouldn't it be easier to just admit that while you may feel a certain way about a subject, you are unable to mount a proper reply? That would at least be losing with dignity.

And just to solidify the fact that you have not been debating the issue, the last post you made that even was on topic was post 114. To which I made a reply that was not even addressed in any reasonable form or fashion. Please, if you don’t want to debate, that is fine. But if you do actually want to debate, then you are going to have to stop ignoring the post below:

I suppose that depends on how loosely you decide you want to use the word ‘proof’. I have provided evidence of her fighting ability and have provided nearly countless references that disprove every argument that you have attempted to make. Deconstructing your reasoning isn’t exactly the most challenging thing I have ever done, on this site or anywhere else. As for evidence that she is on Batman’s level, I have indeed provided evidence in this matter. Once again, you simply ignore that which you find inconvenient.

Believe it or not, you actually did say that she needed 60 years of feats to be credible. You simply didn’t realize you did and contradicted yourself in the exact same paragraph. I tossed out a hypothetical, claiming it was preposterous and you defended it as a logical and sound position to assume regarding her combat ability. So if you are unsure as to why I act as though you did, perhaps you should take more care in your replies, so you don’t appear as though you are not sure of what debating stance you wish to assume?

I am glad you asked that question. ‘Are Amazonians superior to humans in physicals?’ Yes and no. It depends on the Amazon you are referring to. Not that it should matter though, if you think Batman can beat Captain America, when why would an Amazon be that much harder? I mean after all, you probably wouldn’t say that Amazon fodder could beat Captain America. As for the fights in question, it was a mixed bag of powerless Amazons and Amazons whose origins could not be determined that had beaten Batman. And why wouldn’t you be impressed when fodder rings Batman’s bell? Mild superior stats are not something Batman is ill-equipped to combat. But I am happy you took a debating position that requires you to oppose this statement. I am going to remind you of your statement whenever it pleases me; your belief that Batman cannot handle mildly enhanced stats when coupled with what you claim is unimpressive combat ability.

Coming back to the feats in question though, Artemis was a fighter that defeated Batman in simple H2H combat and she is Bana, which means she has no enhancements. She not only defeated Batman, she did it with ease. If we put Artemis’ feats against Batman up against Ra’s, well then they are just about equal in terms of how many times that they have faced off in a 1v1 and certainly more than Batman One Million. I bet there are many other characters with a similar track record with Batman that you accept without question, as well. How about those examples that you ignored? Artemis is without question, Wonder Woman’s inferior in martial arts. Fascinating, no?

How can my original statement be wrong when I managed to coax you into admitting to my original claim only two posts after such a claim was made? Did you already forget? Allow me to refresh your memory:

“If she beat batman in a depowered fight yes I would chalk it up to bad storytelling considering batman has vastly better feats and statements than her.”

Well then, this sure is incriminating, now isn’t it? If you don’t mind, I would appreciate it if you would take one position and stick with it. Jumping from one opinion to the next isn’t really making for a strong argument. There is no falsification, these are your words. That is a sentence that was lifted directly from your post and until you decide to really debase yourself and edit your post, it will be all the evidence I need to verify that you indeed have a bias against Wonder Woman where it concerns her combat ability.

I am going to assume that since you decided to avoid my previous questions, that you lack the ability to furnish the references? What about my examples? Are you unable to address them because you are not aware of them? Trying to create a strawman in order to try to save face isn’t going to work against me, you should know that by now. If you don’t want to debate anymore, that is fine with me. I have more than proven my point anyway.

So the issue is that some of the Amazons have enhanced physicals but not all of them. Certainly not Artemis. Batman got the drop on Artemis and still resorted to his gear to defeat her after she had him pinned and was about to deliver a killing blow. In his second fight with her, his strategy to beating her was to simply not fight her at all. These are two fights that lend to the argument that this unenhanced Amazon warrior is on his level. Wonder Woman is superior to Artemis in every meaningful way. If she is superior to a character that was able to defeat Batman in hand to hand once and Batman preferred to not engage at all in the second, then it stands to reason, nay, it is a statement of fact that Wonder Woman would be even more dangerous than Artemis with the exception of her morals. IF you want to say that she can't beat Batman because her morals prevent her from crossing certain lines, then I would likely agree with you. But to say that she cannot possibly beat Batman in hand to hand combat, well there is just no evidence to support such a claim at all.

IS Wonder Woman the most skillful fighter? I don't know. Is she even better than Batman? Again, it is hard to say. But there is the rub; she has direct and indirect feats that support a minimum requirement to at least cause any logical thinker to ask the question. To at least ponder the possibilities when presented with the facts. She is at the very least, a fighter that Batman cannot dismiss in battle. That would be underestimating her and she is a much more serious threat than someone that has already shown the ability to defeat him.

I never said that you do not read comics. You clearly didn’t read the issues you are continually quoting a Wikipedia from, however. And no, I am not bias towards Wonder Woman in this regard. I am bias towards Wonder Woman in many things, admittedly. Such as who is a better character, who is more underrated, who is more hated and thought less of as a fighter because of misogynist sensibilities. I am sure you know what I’m talking about there.

Referencing a time that Wonder Woman defeated Batman wouldn’t matter. Even if the feats exist, they are Wonder Woman with powers, making them useless in a discussion on strictly her combat ability. You, like many others in this thread with the weakest of arguments, have fallen back on the logical fallacy that the absence of evidence is therefore an evidence of absence. It also happens to be an argument that I have already debunked, twice now in this very thread. I encourage you to go back and actually read the previous page to save me from having to repeat myself. It is only one page, surely you can extend that debating courtesy so you are no longer posting in ignorance.

Again you lifted a quote from a Wikipedia, which I already told you was false. If you insist on believing something that I can freely edit myself, would it make you feel better if I corrected the wiki in question? Would you then be willing to accept my words on whether or not Circe granted Amazons immortality? While you are thinking that one over, explain to me why Circe would grant Amazons immortality in the first place? Also, explain to me why the Bana wanted to go to Themyscira in the first place, if not for their immortality? It is a location that they, the Bana, have never seen. Even their ancestors, Hippolyta’s own sister included, did not see Themyscira. Once Hippolyta liberated the Amazons from Heracles, the gods came to take the Amazons to Themyscira if they were willing to let go of their hate. Hippolyta and her half of the Amazons did this and thus were allowed to enter the island. Hippolyta’s sister and her group were unable to forgive men for what they had done and thus, turned their backs on the gods and the gift of eternal youth.

Aside from its ability to grant limitless lifespan, the island has no value for the Bana-Mighdall. So why would they want Circe to grant them immortality for an island they felt was theirs that they had never once been to, in any generation? Furthermore, why would the Bana even want the island when Circe had already granted them eternal life? Are you starting to connect the dots?

Yes, Artemis had a bow. When did she use it during the hand to hand portion of their combat? She didn’t, nor did she have the Gauntlet of Atlas, like you had previously claimed. The dagger was presented for use after she had put Batman on the ground, once again I add, with ease. You also mentioned “Supergirl busting” strength. I am sorry but even if Artemis had the Gauntlet of Atlas, she would not have strength that would be able to harm Supergirl. So I am a little confused as to how you made the connection that she has strength on that level. Artemis is peak human for a person of her size. Through rigorous training since her infancy, she was able to push the limits of what should be possible, just like Batman had. She only can do what she does for the very same reasons Batman can do what he does, because they both were training for combat for most of (or in Artemis’ case, for her entire) lives. We don’t question Batman’s seemingly superhuman tendencies because, as I have seen fans argue, he has been training since he was a child and has also pushed the limits of what a human being can accomplish. Why then, is it so hard to accept that a female character is capable of the same thing, when she has been training long before Batman was able to start his training? Do strong female characters make you uncomfortable when they are not directly anchored under Batman’s shadow? Forgive my perceptions but it certainly does seem that way.

Artemis also didn’t have backup that influenced the battle, unless you are saying that Batman feared the possibility that an Amazon would kick him from behind, so he was never able to fully protect himself. That would be a position that I would personally find hard to believe but please, feel free to support such a position with a thorough breakdown of the scene. Will you please provide narrative on where Batman felt ill at ease, due to several scantily-clad women? Or even some kind of footnote that explains how Batman trembles at the sight of bows? It is a unique argument, so I am extremely interested to see what you can come up with.

Forgive me but I think you are confused. Nowhere did I question Batman’s ability as a fighter. I am of the firm belief that Batman is not only one of the best fighters in his universe, but he is also one of the best across several universes and even many different publisher’s universes. The list of characters that can beat Batman in a strictly hand to hand fight where both parties understand the scope of their situation is finite. Batman has, without question, few peers. However, they do exist and we can only use what we have to make our estimations. There are many characters that are readily accepted as Batman’s equal or superior that have only a handful of showings. Many have even less than what can be used for Wonder Woman, yet they are happily accepted. I ask you only to extend this same open mind to all characters, not just the ones you think are cool. Or do you only think that women can beat Batman if they have a move-reading ability?

Oh, you meant her bracelets protect her from slashing or piercing attacks? Well yes, this is true. Her bracelets are made from Zeus’ shield. Protection from the likes of bullets is the very least that the bracelets are capable of doing. However, you are incorrect in your position that they provide her any enhanced stats. It is the bracelets that are invulnerable, not Wonder Woman herself. Saying that Wonder Woman’s bracelets boosts her durability is much like saying that Batman’s armor boosts his durability. Batman is still just as durable inside and outside of his armor. It is his armor that absorbs some of the damage, however. Once again, this would not be something that need be considered in a hand to hand battle, so why are you fussing over it?

The wiki section about Magala is in fact true. But you are missing some very critical information on that particular spell. Namely that it was broken years ago because it was killing Diana and that even when it was in effect, it only resulted in changed stats and abilities when Artemis was in proximity to Diana. It was designed to give Artemis an edge in the contest for the Wonder Woman mantle, when Diana was her opponent. I did already cover this on the previous page, but it is clear that you have chosen to not keep yourself apprised of the very debate you have decided to engage in, which I find both curious and amusing.

I admit, there is some arrogance when it comes to Wonder Woman. But that only is arrogance that comes from nearly a decade on this forum, learning everything that there is to know about Wonder Woman and her proverbial family. Unfortunately for you, the only person that currently lacks understanding in this thread is you, sir. I am trying to teach you, but it is quite difficult to teach someone that closes their minds to any opinion that they find uncomfortable. I plead to your logic. Put aside your own admitted bias against Wonder Woman and simply look at the presented evidence. No logical mind would disagree with it. Are you a person of logic, or are you one of those distasteful fanboys that can be found rummaging through the scan trash bin and immediately foam at the mouth when their favorite characters have been ‘insulted’?

Those are standard Amazonian bracelets. Are you even aware of what the Gauntlet of Atlas looks like? I can furnish you with this information if you do require it. It should be noted, also, that if Artemis was indeed wearing the Gauntlet of Atlas, she wouldn’t have an identical bracelet on her other arm. It was retconned into a single gauntlet in the very next issue after it was published and Artemis only had one as her time in Patriarch’s World. Once again, I apologize, but you have been duped yet again.

I am sorry, I didn’t mean to insult you. I am only saying that scan dumping is not a replacement for a well-crafted argument. Your posts seem to indicate that you are not aware of this fact. I am not saying that you are incapable of deep thought at all, only that you are refusing to practice such an action here in this thread.

Batman managed to knock Wonder Woman out with a kick. That does not strike you as at all odd? I am at a loss for words if you think Batman somehow has the power to kick Wonder Woman hard enough to cause her to pass out, yet you call another fight Wonder Woman had with Batman terrible writing for the simple fact that she won, even with powers. The brazen disregard for any kind of reasonable thought is appalling. If I didn’t think watching you act in such a way was completely hilarious, I might be offended by willful ignorance you are displaying at the moment. Wonder Woman can force a nuclear warhead to detonate and be completely fine after the blast, yet the power in Batman’s right leg is enough to knock her out? This is the position you honestly want to take in this argument? Once again, I must ask for your forgiveness. I meant no disrespect when I laughed at you and your thought process. I just find it bewildering that this makes any kind of sense to you. Doubly so when Wonder Woman admits to being able to survive an extended time without oxygen in the very set of scans that you insist on repeatedly dumping.

But even if we ignore what is obviously poor writing, we must also accept that any character, even Batman, can be taken by surprise and struck. Being taken by surprise is not an accurate way to measure someone’s fighting ability.

If PIS is not real, then why do you dislike the story of Hiketeia and League of One? I can assure you, that plot induced stupidity is in fact, a well-known trope in writing and any other entertainment medium. Here is a brief definition of what PIS actually is, since it seems like you are unaware.

You have made a claim of fact when you say that Wonder Woman is not as skilled as that list of characters. A claim of fact allows me to ask for actual evidence to support your claim. Now that the burden of proof is on you, please provide evidence that Wonder Woman is inferior to any one of these characters in terms of fighting ability. I am of course, asking for actual evidence. Not that sad display of irrelevant scans you insist on reusing.

Suggesting that you may be insecure is not an insult. Or at least, it was not meant to be. I had no idea that you defined your self-worth by how people online see you. This must be the case if someone thinking that you are insecure makes you feel attacked.

You have provided scans, this is readily accepted by me and likely, by anyone else in this thread. However, you did not provide scans of Batman winning any legitimate hand to hand fights, save for the one where Batman one-shots a Superman-durable character with his foot… I don’t think I need to tell you how that is crushing to your own argument but I will anyway. If the best feats you can furnish are feats that are taken out of context or are of inferior writing ability to the point that no one but you finds them credible, how can you possibly be expecting to be taken seriously in a debate?

I am stunned that you would post scans of Batman running away from Cassandra and attempt to use that as evidence that he is her equal. Why not provide the scans of Cassandra casually evading his blows?

“You won’t because you know I am to smart for that and could immediately debunk them with scans of my own.”

The irony in this post has nearly hospitalized me from the split sides. I will let you think over why.

Everyone has some bias, but you might want to look up what conformational bias actually means. I don’t think it means what you think it means, my friend. I also am confused as to why you think Jayc knows what he is talking about when he was sent running for the hills after his argument was thoroughly crushed. Do you equate winning to who can shed the most tears or do you just say someone wins if they side with Batman?

I am sorry but that is once again, incorrect. Scan dumping does not prove anything when the scans are not even relevant to the thread. The scans you have provided are by and large, irrelevant. If you would like, I am willing to read through scans that actually matter in a thread that is trying to measure Wonder Woman’s fighting ability. In fact, I would welcome any evidence that you can provide that actually matter. Unfortunately, a possessed Wonder Woman does not qualify in this, nor do sparring matches that require Wonder Woman to restrain herself to an incalculable degree. Furthermore, you have not yet really addressed the Artemis argument. Trying to dismiss it is all you have done. Since that has failed, will you reassess or will you stubbornly refuse any kind of logical or reasonable thinking?

I never insulted you for using a Wikipedia as your source of information. I implied that it is bad practice and it very much is. Once again, if you choose to measure your self-worth by how you construct your arguments, perhaps you should make better arguments or simply not make arguments at all, if someone calling your argument tactics into question causes you to feel insulted.

@outside_85: Dishonorable liar, I never conceded.

Before you crawl back into the abyss, tell me, why do you disdain the Dark Knight?

She may be good at armed combat, and I'd place her skill as a fighter (h2h)in top 20. But as far as "the best" there are quite a few that could dismiss her if not for her heritage. People like Richard dragon, Ben turner, David Cain, Cass Cain, batman, Shiva, chesire.

@makhai:

"I never said that you do not read comics. You clearly didn’t read the issues you are continually quoting a Wikipedia from, however. And no, I am not bias towards Wonder Woman in this regard. I am bias towards Wonder Woman in many things, admittedly. Such as who is a better character, who is more underrated, who is more hated and thought less of as a fighter because of misogynist sensibilities. I am sure you know what I’m talking about there."

How am I misogynist because Batman can do this?

"Referencing a time that Wonder Woman defeated Batman wouldn’t matter. Even if the feats exist, they are Wonder Woman with powers, making them useless in a discussion on strictly her combat ability. You, like many others in this thread with the weakest of arguments, have fallen back on the logical fallacy that the absence of evidence is therefore an evidence of absence. It also happens to be an argument that I have already debunked, twice now in this very thread. I encourage you to go back and actually read the previous page to save me from having to repeat myself. It is only one page, surely you can extend that debating courtesy so you are no longer posting in ignorance."

"Again you lifted a quote from a Wikipedia, which I already told you was false. If you insist on believing something that I can freely edit myself, would it make you feel better if I corrected the wiki in question? Would you then be willing to accept my words on whether or not Circe granted Amazons immortality? While you are thinking that one over, explain to me why Circe would grant Amazons immortality in the first place? Also, explain to me why the Bana wanted to go to Themyscira in the first place, if not for their immortality? It is a location that they, the Bana, have never seen. Even their ancestors, Hippolyta’s own sister included, did not see Themyscira. Once Hippolyta liberated the Amazons from Heracles, the gods came to take the Amazons to Themyscira if they were willing to let go of their hate. Hippolyta and her half of the Amazons did this and thus were allowed to enter the island. Hippolyta’s sister and her group were unable to forgive men for what they had done and thus, turned their backs on the gods and the gift of eternal youth."

Because that was the deal, and later she betrayed them

Aside from its ability to grant limitless lifespan, the island has no value for the Bana-Mighdall. So why would they want Circe to grant them immortality for an island they felt was theirs that they had never once been to, in any generation? Furthermore, why would the Bana even want the island when Circe had already granted them eternal life? Are you starting to connect the dots?

"Yes, Artemis had a bow. When did she use it during the hand to hand portion of their combat? She didn’t, nor did she have the Gauntlet of Atlas, like you had previously claimed. The dagger was presented for use after she had put Batman on the ground, once again I add, with ease. You also mentioned “Supergirl busting” strength. I am sorry but even if Artemis had the Gauntlet of Atlas, she would not have strength that would be able to harm Supergirl. So I am a little confused as to how you made the connection that she has strength on that level. Artemis is peak human for a person of her size. Through rigorous training since her infancy, she was able to push the limits of what should be possible, just like Batman had. She only can do what she does for the very same reasons Batman can do what he does, because they both were training for combat for most of (or in Artemis’ case, for her entire) lives. We don’t question Batman’s seemingly superhuman tendencies because, as I have seen fans argue, he has been training since he was a child and has also pushed the limits of what a human being can accomplish. Why then, is it so hard to accept that a female character is capable of the same thing, when she has been training long before Batman was able to start his training? Do strong female characters make you uncomfortable when they are not directly anchored under Batman’s shadow? Forgive my perceptions but it certainly does seem that way."

1) But she did have back up, like a coward.

WEwere told to delay you

2) Guess this never happened then?

"Artemis also didn’t have backup that influenced the battle, unless you are saying that Batman feared the possibility that an Amazon would kick him from behind, so he was never able to fully protect himself. That would be a position that I would personally find hard to believe but please, feel free to support such a position with a thorough breakdown of the scene. Will you please provide narrative on where Batman felt ill at ease, due to several scantily-clad women? Or even some kind of footnote that explains how Batman trembles at the sight of bows? It is a unique argument, so I am extremely interested to see what you can come up with."

"I hate Metropolis not the most effective place to work" Batman

Batman didn't get the drop on her he called her out, he didn't have the time for it.

"One of the fiercest Amazon warriors" Batman (take that any way you want)

"WE were told to delay you" Artemis

"Forgive me but I think you are confused. Nowhere did I question Batman’s ability as a fighter. I am of the firm belief that Batman is not only one of the best fighters in his universe, but he is also one of the best across several universes and even many different publisher’s universes. The list of characters that can beat Batman in a strictly hand to hand fight where both parties understand the scope of their situation is finite. Batman has, without question, few peers. However, they do exist and we can only use what we have to make our estimations. There are many characters that are readily accepted as Batman’s equal or superior that have only a handful of showings. Many have even less than what can be used for Wonder Woman, yet they are happily accepted. I ask you only to extend this same open mind to all characters, not just the ones you think are cool. Or do you only think that women can beat Batman if they have a move-reading ability?"

1) Why didn't you say so, of course Batman can get beat by Bane only.

2) Not interested

3) Cassandra didn't beat him.

"Oh, you meant her bracelets protect her from slashing or piercing attacks? Well yes, this is true. Her bracelets are made from Zeus’ shield. Protection from the likes of bullets is the very least that the bracelets are capable of doing. However, you are incorrect in your position that they provide her any enhanced stats. It is the bracelets that are invulnerable, not Wonder Woman herself. Saying that Wonder Woman’s bracelets boosts her durability is much like saying that Batman’s armor boosts his durability. Batman is still just as durable inside and outside of his armor. It is his armor that absorbs some of the damage, however. Once again, this would not be something that need be considered in a hand to hand battle, so why are you fussing over it?"

Doesn't her armor allow her to fly?

I wasn't

The wiki section about Magala is in fact true. But you are missing some very critical information on that particular spell. Namely that it was broken years ago because it was killing Diana and that even when it was in effect, it only resulted in changed stats and abilities when Artemis was in proximity to Diana. It was designed to give Artemis an edge in the contest for the Wonder Woman mantle, when Diana was her opponent. I did already cover this on the previous page, but it is clear that you have chosen to not keep yourself apprised of the very debate you have decided to engage in, which I find both curious and amusing.

"I admit, there is some arrogance when it comes to Wonder Woman. But that only is arrogance that comes from nearly a decade on this forum, learning everything that there is to know about Wonder Woman and her proverbial family. Unfortunately for you, the only person that currently lacks understanding in this thread is you, sir. I am trying to teach you, but it is quite difficult to teach someone that closes their minds to any opinion that they find uncomfortable. I plead to your logic. Put aside your own admitted bias against Wonder Woman and simply look at the presented evidence. No logical mind would disagree with it. Are you a person of logic, or are you one of those distasteful fanboys that can be found rummaging through the scan trash bin and immediately foam at the mouth when their favorite characters have been ‘insulted’?"

1) same with me and Batman, don't get on your high horse and say I'm ignorant when I learned a lot about Batman over the years

2) Are you a person of logic who will look at scans of Batman defeating wonder Woman in sparing or are you a dishonorable fangirl rageing and crying about misogyny because Batman COULD win a battle with her?

"Those are standard Amazonian bracelets. Are you even aware of what the Gauntlet of Atlas looks like? I can furnish you with this information if you do require it. It should be noted, also, that if Artemis was indeed wearing the Gauntlet of Atlas, she wouldn’t have an identical bracelet on her other arm. It was retconned into a single gauntlet in the very next issue after it was published and Artemis only had one as her time in Patriarch’s World. Once again, I apologize, but you have been duped yet again."

Bracelets gold bracelets which is what she was wearing

"I am sorry, I didn’t mean to insult you. I am only saying that scan dumping is not a replacement for a well-crafted argument. Your posts seem to indicate that you are not aware of this fact. I am not saying that you are incapable of deep thought at all, only that you are refusing to practice such an action here in this thread."

Hiding behind a thesaurus is not a well crafted argument

"Batman managed to knock Wonder Woman out with a kick. That does not strike you as at all odd? I am at a loss for words if you think Batman somehow has the power to kick Wonder Woman hard enough to cause her to pass out,"

He can bleed Darksied with a kick, Wonder Woman is lower mid tier at best and Batman is 250 pounds of pure muscle

"yet you call another fight Wonder Woman had with Batman terrible writing for the simple fact that she won,"

I hate Henkata bla bla bla (stupid name wether love the writing or hate the writing) but think League of one is fine.

In Hjbjhsgha Batman begged for mercy, BATMAN DOESN'T BEG!!!! Not even whilst being attacked by Bane in Knightfall

In league of one he fought until he was out cold

The brazen disregard for any kind of reasonable thought is appalling. If I didn’t think watching you act in such a way was completely hilarious, I might be offended by willful ignorance you are displaying at the moment. Wonder Woman can force a nuclear warhead to detonate and be completely fine after the blast, yet the power in Batman’s right leg is enough to knock her out? This is the position you honestly want to take in this argument? Once again, I must ask for your forgiveness. I meant no disrespect when I laughed at you and your thought process. I just find it bewildering that this makes any kind of sense to you. Doubly so when Wonder Woman admits to being able to survive an extended time without oxygen in the very set of scans that you insist on repeatedly dumping."

Kingdom Come is non canon, Confidential #53 is, but a feats a feat, so let me counter aurgue that I don't remember Wonder Woman taking the blast only moving the bomb Shazam died by taking the hit from the warhead

But even if we ignore what is obviously poor writing, we must also accept that any character, even Batman, can be taken by surprise and struck. Being taken by surprise is not an accurate way to measure someone’s fighting ability.

Yes it can. Stealth is a combat ability not a home work assignment (?)

If PIS is not real, then why do you dislike the story of Hiketeia and League of One? I can assure you, that plot induced stupidity is in fact, a well-known trope in writing and any other entertainment medium. Here is a brief definition of what PIS actually is, since it seems like you are unaware.

I know what PIS is Plot Included Stupidity, I find it silly, the writers write to make money not pander to battle forums

You have made a claim of fact when you say that Wonder Woman is not as skilled as that list of characters. A claim of fact allows me to ask for actual evidence to support your claim. Now that the burden of proof is on you, please provide evidence that Wonder Woman is inferior to any one of these characters in terms of fighting ability. I am of course, asking for actual evidence. Not that sad display of irrelevant scans you insist on reusing.

Every scan I used is relevant, Batman beating her= Relevant Slade beating her = relevant

Batman and Deathstroke defeated her

as for the others why is she more skilled? That's the title of the forum so you tell me

Suggesting that you may be insecure is not an insult. Or at least, it was not meant to be. I had no idea that you defined your self-worth by how people online see you. This must be the case if someone thinking that you are insecure makes you feel attacked.

You have provided scans, this is readily accepted by me and likely, by anyone else in this thread. However, you did not provide scans of Batman winning any legitimate hand to hand fights, save for the one where Batman one-shots a Superman-durable character with his foot… I don’t think I need to tell you how that is crushing to your own argument but I will anyway. If the best feats you can furnish are feats that are taken out of context in context or are of inferior writing ability to the point that no one but you finds them credible, how can you possibly be expecting to be taken seriously in a debate?

She was never ever ever as strong as superman

Who died and put you in charge of what is PIS

I am stunned that you would post scans of Batman running away from Cassandra and attempt to use that as evidence that he is her equal. Why not provide the scans of Cassandra casually evading his blows?

Because most of Tough Love was Batman

1) fighting her in H2H

2) He used the fight as therapy, as explained by him in a conversation with Barbra

“You won’t because you know I am to smart for that and could immediately debunk them with scans of my own.”

The irony in this post has nearly hospitalized me from the split sides. I will let you think over why.

You think I'm dumb,

Everyone has some bias, but you might want to look up what conformational bias actually means. I don’t think it means what you think it means, my friend. I also am confused as to why you think Jayc knows what he is talking about when he was sent running for the hills after his argument was thoroughly crushed. Do you equate winning to who can shed the most tears or do you just say someone wins if they side with Batman?

He's back, lady.

insulting

I am sorry but that is once again, incorrect. Scan dumping does not prove anything when the scans are not even relevant completely relevant to the thread. The scans you have provided are by and large, irrelevant. If you would like, I am willing to read through scans that actually matter in a thread that is trying to measure Wonder Woman’s fighting ability. In fact, I would welcome any evidence that you can provide that actually matter. Unfortunately, a possessed Wonder Woman does not qualify in this, nor do sparring matches that require Wonder Woman to restrain herself to an incalculable degree. Furthermore, you have not yet really addressed the Artemis argument. Trying to dismiss it is all you have done. Since that has failed, will you reassess or will you stubbornly refuse any kind of logical or reasonable thinking?

Your foolishness is comforting, Possession is the few times hero vs hero matches go all out

Then she is a power based character not a skill based character and Batman (and others) win by default

Yes I did you are just to stubborn to use logic

she wasn't possessed here

I never insulted you for using a Wikipedia as your source of information. I implied that it is bad practice and it very much is. Once again, if you choose to measure your self-worth by how you construct your arguments, perhaps you should make better arguments or simply not make arguments at all, if someone calling your argument tactics into question causes you to feel insulted.

I never said that

Heck of a lot better than yours, even if I'm not a typing champ

Don't tell me what to do

You said @Jayc1324 cried and called me dumb that's why you're insulting

PS write like a real person; short, sweet, and to the point. This is getting TLTR.

@makhai: Oops pictures disappeared. I'll edit them tomorrow it's 5:00 because I've had work to do. Please don't counter argue until then. Thank you.

Edit I think I'm ready

@username12345: Surely you are becoming tired of being wrong all the time, my good friend. Simply saying that the deal was she was going to grant them immortality and then dismissing the rest of the post that painstakingly explains how your foolish belief is wrong only makes you the proverbial ostrich with a small plat of sand. Circe promised them immortality, but how was she intending to deliver it? Especially when she cannot cast one spell without first reversing the other? I can see that you only took the effort to skim and did not waste any of your time learning. If you intend to be anything more than a simple scan dumper on this thread, I would highly recommend that you take the time to at least address all portions of your opponents argument, not only the sentences you think are weakest. That is the mistake of a novice and it smacks of laziness and a lack of intellect. I pray, for your sake, that this not your measure of your debating skill and instead is just you having a laugh.

Once again, in the hopes you actually read the argument, Circe promised them immortality upon taking the island. How else could she possibly have given them immortality when she had not the magical power to deliver that gift in any shape or form besides getting them to Themyscira, where they could take the island for themselves and thus, win their immortality? You also ignored all the other relevant information, so without further ado and please, take the time to actually ready instead of cherry picking:

Again you lifted a quote from a Wikipedia, which I already told you was false. If you insist on believing something that I can freely edit myself, would it make you feel better if I corrected the wiki in question? Would you then be willing to accept my words on whether or not Circe granted Amazons immortality? While you are thinking that one over, explain to me why Circe would grant Amazons immortality in the first place? Also, explain to me why the Bana wanted to go to Themyscira in the first place, if not for their immortality? It is a location that they, the Bana, have never seen. Even their ancestors, Hippolyta’s own sister included, did not see Themyscira. Once Hippolyta liberated the Amazons from Heracles, the gods came to take the Amazons to Themyscira if they were willing to let go of their hate. Hippolyta and her half of the Amazons did this and thus were allowed to enter the island. Hippolyta’s sister and her group were unable to forgive men for what they had done and thus, turned their backs on the gods and the gift of eternal youth.

You’ll notice that the Bana would have no reason to go to Themyscira at all if Circe granted them immortality. None. Yet it was not to do Circe’s bidding that drove them to the try and take the island, no not at all. The Bana were committed to taking the island because they felt entitled to the immortality granted therein. I just read the issue, for you sake. Nowhere was it said that Circe granted immortality. Artemis only said that immortality was their right as Amazons. It would have been wise to come to this thread asking for information, rather than trying to use a Wikipedia as though it was a superior substitute for firsthand knowledge. Another rookie mistake, I’m afraid.

Yes, Artemis did in fact have other Amazons with her. None of them contributed to the fight in question though. So I am yet again, finding myself balking at your position on the matter. It is one thing to state something as fact when you know not the truth but it is another entirely when you sputter such ignorance with such arrogance. It almost elicits feelings of pity from me. I am confused on why such actions are the makings of a coward, however. When a combat unit performs a mission, are they cowards for bringing their entire squads along? Or are only the ones that have filled their minds with too many action movies and refuse assistance from their comrades to be men that are revered in your mind? It is fine that you think Artemis is a coward. It would not be the first mistake or blatant display of ignorance on your part and I regretfully am predicting it shall not be your last. I am confident that the possibility of your continued ignorance on the subject being discussed will only grow, rather than shrink as more information is presented. Quite sad indeed when someone is so opposed to a position, that even when proven wrong, they refuse all evidence and even go as far as to fabricate information of their own where convenient.

Yes, Artemis was ordered to delay Batman. Yes, she decided to ignore those orders and take it upon herself to kill the Dark Knight because it would prevent loose ends and is much more convenient to kill an opponent rather than incapacitate them.

I’m sorry but you have been quoting my argument and replying with scans yet, not one of those scans actually addresses my argument. It is your hopes that you can simply win users over with flash instead of substance? The list of lazy and novice mistakes you are making as a debater continues to expand, my dear friend. Allow me to repeat myself, because it seems as though you have some difficulty understanding my words of choice here:

Artemis also didn’t have backup that influenced the battle, unless you are saying that Batman feared the possibility that an Amazon would kick him from behind, so he was never able to fully protect himself. That would be a position that I would personally find hard to believe but please, feel free to support such a position with a thorough breakdown of the scene. Will you please provide narrative on where Batman felt ill at ease, due to several scantily-clad women? Or even some kind of footnote that explains how Batman trembles at the sight of bows? It is a unique argument, so I am extremely interested to see what you can come up with.

This was your position, I only wanted you to expand on it. You seem to be hesitant now. Is it because I have pointed out the ridiculous nature of your position? If you wish to withdraw on this particular point, I would understand. The claim that Batman is afraid of a group of Amazons is preposterous. Even if Batman knows he cannot win, he would be unshaken by the sight of several Amazonian warriors. Fear of injury or death is not something Batman is capable of. His fears are of a different variety. So I understand why you would hope that I would forget that you had taken up such a wild claim. Unfortunately for you, dear friend, I have not.

Artemis is indeed one of the fiercest of the Amazons. That much is in fact, true. Though I am unsure of how that is relevant here, in the arguments you have proposed at the very least. It is just filler for your post, I imagine. Nothing but fluff to pad your argument, and make it look like you have something important to say. Ferocity does not mean immortality, superhuman ability, nor does it indicate fighting ability. The fact that you brought it up at all causes me a moment of pause.

Your admission that Batman can be defeated by Bane also seems unusual for the portion of my post that you had highlighted anyway. I also am not sure what you intended to convey by saying, ‘not interested’. Did you mean that you are not interested in having an intellectual debate? Because I really need no admission from you on this matter. It is painfully clear in your posts, but I do appreciate the willingness to admit that you have nothing to offer this thread but a scan dump of irrelevancy. Furthermore, I never said Cassandra beat him.

No, actually. The Sandals of Hermes do grant flight and Artemis did in fact have these sandals during her time as Wonder Woman but much like the Gauntlet of Atlas, she lost them at the time of her death. There is also Amazonian armor that grants flight but until we see Artemis with golden metal wings attached to a golden plate and battle skirt, she does not have them. If you meant Diana herself, then no. Wonder Woman of the Post Crisis era was able to fly under her own power.

Oh dear, you seem to be confused again. You did indeed fuss over what you claimed was a durability enhancement enjoyed by Wonder Woman in the form of her indestructible bracelets. To say otherwise would be to be caught in a lie. You are not a liar, are you?

You claim to have learned much about Batman over the years but why then are you showing nothing of relevance where it concerns Batman? All you have even attempted to do is devalue the feats of other characters through sheer ignorant posts. Frankly, I would be insulted if any respectable debater on this site presented his or her arguments as you have. It shows a complete lack of respect for facts, logic, and reason. These are your three enemies, not I.

My horse where it concerns Wonder Woman is indeed high. But then again, there has never been anyone on this site that knows nearly as much as I do on the character. So the height of my horse and the pride in which I take in it, is completely justified. If you know much about Batman, then you certainly are not respecting yourself in showing it.

Hmmm… What a weak attempt at turning the question around on me and in fact, you have revealed your own bigotry in the process. First of all, it does not take a woman to appreciate and love the character that is Wonder Woman. So your assumptions that I am female based only on the fact that I defend her position in this thread is quite incriminating, indeed. Furthermore, I never made the claim that Batman cannot beat Wonder Woman. Not once was this my argument. However, the scans you have provided in any number of their exchanges does not support any reasonable argument that Batman can indeed defeat Wonder Woman in fair combat. We have only sparring matches, in which Wonder Woman must restrain herself to keep from harming Batman, or you have not only out of context fights, but out of universe fights that you have presented as factual evidence to support your claim. If you were at all as knowledgeable about Batman as you claim, none of the scans you have used would be presented here. Alas, they have been. So I can only assume the strength of your knowledge on Batman is as shallow as a kiddy pool. That might not be the case but it is indeed all you have given me to judge you by.

I really appreciate that you have provided a scan of the Gauntlets of Atlas that actually support my argument, thank you. If you will read my excerpt that you have pulled from my post for your reply, you will note that I was the one that told you that they only appeared as two items in their initial appearance and then were thereafter, retconned into one for the sake of convenience on the Messner-Loebs’ part. I dislike providing scans, myself. I personally find arguments overloaded with scans to be lazy. However, in your case, I will offer you a scan of Artemis just before her death, to show that the Gauntlets of Atlas became the Gauntlet of Atlas. You may also note that in my scan and in the scan that you have provided me from… yet again a Wikipedia of all places… Anyway, you will note that both are shown to be especially elaborate in design, as a silver bracelets adorned with a golden snake. Now, tell me friend, do you see such a bracelet on Artemis in the fight where Batman tied her up with some bolas? You know, the one where you claimed she was wearing the aforementioned bracelets? No? Please, check again, for your own sake if nothing else. I am sure you don’t like being made a fool of and I think that you may actually be capable of becoming a decent debater one day. But a decent debater must learn to admit when they have stepped in, as they say, the dog sh!t.

Oh my, is that intimidation I detect? If it is, be not afraid. I am not using a thesaurus at all. I am using only the power of my exceptionally beautiful brain. And just to put to bed any question on the quality of my argument, I have already invited several people to look over this thread for their opinions on both the quality of my argument and of course, your sentence fragments and oversized pictures. Not one person felt you were deserving of any measure of respect as a debater, I’m afraid. Now, I would not call you a clown, because that would be disrespectful and a breach of the rules on this forum. However, similar words were used by our peers to describe you in private. If you wish to make for better arguments, I would be more than happy to instruct you. You could become my pupil of sorts. That is, of course, assuming you could stand to have a superior teach you anything.

“He can bleed Darksied with a kick, Wonder Woman is lower mid tier at best and Batman is 250 pounds of pure muscle”

Oh my. I must withdraw my offer. I think you are in fact, beyond any kind of help. If these are the positions you want to take, it is clear you will never become a debater worth any kind of respect or notoriety.

Oh, you have a problem with the strategy employed by Batman in Hiketeia. Did you actually read the mini or did you just see the scans of the fight and assume the absolute worst? I am guessing the latter because if you had actually read the issue, you would know that it was only Batman trying to exploit an Amazonian tradition, nothing more. It seems like your hate is unfounded.

Why are you brining up Kingdom Come? That was not the reference I was making by saying that she withstood a nuclear explosion. It has been some time since I read Kingdom Come but I do not believe that Wonder Woman was even present for the nuclear explosion in that mini.

It would not be poor writing, I am afraid. Wonder Woman has, on many occasions, shown that she has durability on par with Superman. Superman obviously has greater durability but the fact remains that Wonder Woman is more than capable of withstanding a nuclear explosion. But I think I will wait for you to deny it at least once more so I can spread the use of scans out. Once again, I try to use scans as little as possible because excessive use of scans is a crutch for the lesser debaters.

Okay, I will adopt your position that being struck by a sneak attack is an appropriate measure of a person’s fighting ability. Is it your position that Batman is far too skilled to be taken by surprise? I ask with eager anticipation of your own figurative seppuku.

What does the motive of a writer have to do with whether or not plot induced stupidity is actually a real trope? You are being unclear, sir. I told you this would happen earlier. That you would be so eager to oppose my every word that you would start to trip on words of your own. Oh dear, what a tragedy.

I’m sorry but no. A scan or series of scans, do not become relevant simply because you wish them to be or because you say they are. You have scans from another universe, which has no bearing here, you have scans that are out of context, which have no bearing here, and you have scans that outright don’t support your arguments in any way, which obviously also have no bearing here. All you did was perform a scattershot of Wonder Woman being injured or flipped. It is quite a large menagerie, I assure you but it is not really that relevant at all to this topic. All it has done is illustrate your bias against Wonder Woman to the exclusion of all reason. Normally I would exit an argument at this stage because your defeat is only too clear to any observer but I find your silliness to be quite amusing, so I believe I will stick around for a while to see what more I can disprove from you.

Deathstroke did not defeat Wonder Woman in the scans you have provided. I apologize if someone misinformed you but all Deathstroke managed to do was surprise her. She very handedly defeated Deathstroke on the very next page.

Sorry but the title of the forum in actually Wonder Woman. The title of the thread is what asks the question on her fighting ability. A minor clarification but I wouldn’t want to miss an opportunity, even the easy ones.

Oh you have resorted to the strawman argument. That was another tactic I had foretold in an earlier post. I never said Wonder Woman is as strong as Superman. She isn’t. But I appreciate the attempt at the strawman. It tells me that you are getting desperate for even a minor victory. Thank you.

Well no one put me in charge of what is plot induced stupidity but why would this matter if anyone put me in charge of such a thing, even though I am clearly capable of such responsibilities. After all, you claimed that plot induced stupidity doesn’t exist at all, so even if I was Commander in Chief of what is plot induced stupidity and what is not, couldn’t you just pretend that your opinion is the only valid one? You know, like you have already been doing? But one does not need to be in charge of what is plot induced stupidity and what is not to make such a call. It is obvious in some cases and in other cases, it is usually a general consensus that makes such a judgment call.

Well I would never say that you are dumb but since you offered it, I do think something along those lines. Guilty as charged.

That is not correct, I am afraid. At least not always. Possessions are not actually the character themselves. They are being heavily influenced by another entity, device, or some other outside influence that make them perform actions that they themselves would never perform. So while you believe to think otherwise is foolish, there hasn’t been a lot from you that would indicate I should be seeking any kind of approval from you. In fact, I would go as far as to say that if we ever were in agreement, I might have to seriously reconsider my position… in any matter.

In the scan you used to prove that Wonder Woman was not possessed while she was defeated is also an irrelevant scan. You see, that is from Red Son. That is an Elseworld and has absolutely no kind of weight in a discussion about any version of the characters but the Elseworld that they are from.

If you are indeed better than I am at debating, I wonder how much longer I will be forced to wait until you show any measure of skill at all.

You’re right. I should not be telling you what to do. Asking you to debate like an adult or intellectual was indeed out of place and I had forgotten my manners. Allow me to rephrase. Would you be willing to debate as though you are a person capable of complex thought? Not for me, of course, but for any potential readers of this thread? I am sure that debating at a much higher level (as you say, you are not even trying) would be far more entertaining than the performance you have provided.

I never called you dumb. I don’t even like the word ‘dumb’. If you would please quote the section of the post where I actually called you dumb, I would appreciate it. If I made such a mistake, I would prefer to apologize for it.

If you find reading to be too taxing, I apologize but I cannot ‘dumb it down’. I like posting in this manner. You will just have to learn to apply yourself in a debate with me, I’m afraid.

Oh my, that would be the Gauntlet but look here, there is only one. Color me shocked!

Damn....

Sweet Jesus this thread is turning out just like that Cheetah defeated by Green Arrow topic. In both cases it seems like both threads rustled up some Wonder Woman fans. Or in this case, Wonder Woman fan.

Hasn't this been settled down? Wonder Woman is not the best fighter. Nor is she the most skilled martial artist. When Batman called her the best melee fighter, I highly doubt he was referring to being the best martial artist. If this were the case, Batman would be basically saying himself that Wonder Woman's a better martial artist than himself, Shiva, Cass. etc. She simply does not have that much good feats to suggest she's even near Batman's level. But who needs skill when you can punch someone to a bloody pulp or one shot people who are physically inferior to you?

Also, if Wonder Woman did beat Batman, I'm pretty sure her superior stats are playing in this. If Bruce and Diana fought with stats equalized, Bruce still wins 10/10, but she has enough skill to hold her own for a few minutes.

As for the Artemis vs Bruce bit. I'm not so sure how getting what appears to be one lucky punch (been a while since I read it, I believe he let her punch him) somehow makes her a better fighter than Bruce? Then applying ABC to say that cause Wonder Woman is a better fighter than Artemis who hasn't even beaten any noteworthy martial artist or has any feats to show that he's near Bruces level aside from that one instance who Bruce may or may not have let her punch him.

@saint_sophie: I was unaware that being a fan of a character devalued credibility of an argument, Sophie. It doesn’t nor should it. You might be confusing fan with fanboy and if there is any qualifier for the title of a fanboy, I would surely not fit within that category. For you see, a fanboy is so impassioned by their love of their character that they refuse to listen to logic or reason. Can you honestly say that I am not employing logic and reason to an exhausting degree in this thread? A fan I may be but this fan has not only held his own in this thread, but has crushed any and all competition. In style, I might add.

I am not sure what you mean by ‘settled down’ but the issue has not been settled, if that is what you meant to say. I am confused though, why you felt the need to say that Wonder Woman is not the best fighter, when that was never in question at all, certainly not by me at least. You also referenced a particular scene in comics that had not been referenced by me. So if you are going to refer to me in your argument in a subtly negative way, I would appreciate it if you would at least address the arguments that you took issue with. Otherwise I could dismiss you as another strawman maker.

Once again and for what I have counted to be the fifth time that I have had to say this: the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Please don’t take my word for it at all. I would not expect you to at this point, because you have already made it clear that anyone that takes up a position for Wonder Woman is automatically someone not worth listening to. But please, take it upon yourself to at least research the logical fallacy that is an argument from ignorance. That is literally the form of argument that you are trying to employ here. Do you really want to be associated with logical fallacies as the foundation of your arguments? It boggles the mind that anyone with access to the internet would seriously use one of the worst kinds of logical fallacies. I plead to your logical mind, don’t use the form of argument that immediately nullifies any credibility you might have. So far, you have been the most reasonable person I have had to combat here, your opinion of me notwithstanding.

You are correct in saying that Wonder Woman’s martial arts feats are finite but you are wrong to assume that we cannot use what we do have. We do have Wonder Woman displaying martial prowess on many occasions. Training Black Canary and sparring with Batman to name a few. While she obviously had to restrain herself to a large degree, it is clear that she has considerable fighting ability, else Batman would not bother sparring with her at all. Why would Batman be interested in sparring with someone that is so beneath him in fighting ability? That makes no sense. It assumes that Batman is wasteful of his time and energy, which we both know is definitely not true. No, Batman considered her fighting ability to be worth his time. That alone does not say that she is among the best but it certainly gives her a higher standing than some have given her credit for, that much is at least true.

Furthermore, her other showings where she used her skill to beat physically superior foes also needs to lend credibility to her fighting ability in the same way that Batman uses his skill to defeat physically superior villainy. Her many fights with Superman, win or lose, were all extended in length because of her superior fighting ability. Superman does indeed have martial prowess as well. He is one of the best Kryptonian martial artists, if I recall correctly. While he doesn’t use it often, he has actually put it to use. That alone, much like what was said before, is not a significant to measure her fighting ability, but there is more.

Her fight with Power Girl was also a showing of skill against a physically superior foe. The difference between Power Girl and Wonder Woman in physical stats is likely about as large as the difference in stats between Batman and Bane. Yet Wonder Woman was able to defeat Power Girl with relative ease once she decided to stop fighting like a typical brick and start fighting like an Amazon. You see, she has the fighting ability you desire to see but by her own admission, her powers allow her to utilize only a small portion of it to defeat her enemies. When she has needed the full scope of her skill, it has often paid off for her.

The training of Black Canary though, I believe is significant because Black Canary is a respected fighter in her own right, am I not correct in this?

Then of course, there is the Amazons that have fought Batman that lend even more evidence to her fighting ability. Now, I don’t know if I would say that Amazon fodder is superior to Batman in technical fighting ability. 3,000 years of training happens to matter little to those on debating forums. It means little for Thor, so we can assume that it means little for the Amazons, as far as debaters are concerned. However, several of them have gotten the upper hand and even defeated Batman. Some would say that they are physically superior to humans and therefore dismiss it but I say why? How much are they superior to a character like Batman? A character that is clearly superhuman by any real human standards in his own right. What feats do Amazons have that put them physically so far above Batman that he cannot possibly hope to outcompete them? What physical stats do they have that make up for what many assume is a pathetic measure of fighting ability? They would have to be considerably higher than Deathstroke, in my opinion and to be frank, there is nothing that the Amazons have done that put them that high in physical ability. They may be higher than peak, maybe. But I don’t believe for a second that it would be enough to defeat Batman unless they also were of exceptional fighting skill. Batman has far too many showings against physically superior foes to call any such argument into question.

Wonder Woman has beaten Batman before but I never once referenced those fights because she did it with powers. So you are arguing another point that I myself had never made, Sophie.

You are significantly underplaying Diana’s skill if you can see all the evidence that I have supplied and still believe that Batman wins one hundred percent of the time. It is almost as if you had not bothered to read a single counter-argument to your own personal beliefs. Why even debate at all if all you are capable of is reading the opinions of those that you already agree with? Once again, you have fallen into the fallacy of conformational bias.

I’m sorry but you really think that an opponent with lackluster skill is capable of getting a ‘lucky punch’ against one such as Batman? Especially after he already had readily engaged in a fight, removing any hopes of calling it a surprise? If that is true for the case of Artemis, it says some very embarrassing things about Batman. Are you trying so hard to lowball Artemis’ feat, that you are willing to shame Batman in the process? Because that is exactly what you have managed to do with that silly post. Batman does not fall prey to ‘lucky shots’ in a fight that he is ready for, that he is expecting. That is an absurd claim and most definitely a desperate one.

Yet again, it is not ABC logic. I don’t believe that you know what ABC logic is, as a matter of a fact. ABC logic would be to say that because Wonder Woman has beaten one character that has beaten another character, that Wonder Woman can also beat said third character but that is not what I am saying at all. The argument against ABC logic factors in many things, such as powers, weaknesses, strengths, morals, physical vulnerabilities, etc. If I was saying that Artemis could use her magical abilities to defeat someone and therefore, Wonder Woman can defeat them as well, that would be the fallacy of ABC logic. I am not saying that at all. I am using Artemis as a measuring stick only. I am saying that Artemis has beaten Batman and has shown the skill to be able to do so in fair combat. She has the martial ability to not only meet him in the field on even ground, but to defeat him. That is the measure of her skill. Wonder Woman is confirmed to be significantly superior to Artemis in martial ability. It is not even in question among anyone that has read the issues. If Artemis is the measuring stick and has shown the ability to beat Batman without trickery of powers, then it only makes logical sense to say that barring morals (which I admit Batman could exploit), Wonder Woman could also beat Batman in a strictly hand to hand battle.

Do you see now? I don’t know what your strategy is but as you may be finally able to see, you will not be outlasting me in this debate. If you want to beat me, it will not be from refusal to give up. No, to beat me, you need to start using a logical mind.

@makhai:

1) please quote what list/ example/ part you are responding to

2) TLTR

3) funny how you turned this into a Artamis vs Batman debate instead of a Wonder Woman isn't the most skilled fighter debate

4) It's also funny how you don't respond to the fact you used "sexism" as an excuse for Wonder Wimp

"Surely you are becoming tired of being wrong all the time,"

I'm not

BTW here is comic vines proof she is not just peak human

Powers and Abilities

Strength and Mastery of Combat

Artemis possesses the physical abilities of a peak-level member of the Amazon race: Superhuman strength, speed, agility, reflexes, endurance, and longevity. She is able to lift 15 tons under normal conditions. In addition, she is one of the Amazons' most accomplished warriors and is a master of hand-to-hand combat, swordfighting, and archery. Artemis is the equal of Diana (Wonder Woman) in combat, though her fighting style is far more aggressive, which contrasts with Diana's more measured approach. Because she never holds back, Artemis has often beaten Diana when they have fought, and she believes herself to be the superior fighter.

"my good friend."

Don't call me that

"Simply saying that the deal was she was going to grant them immortality and then dismissing the rest of the post that painstakingly explains how your foolish belief is wrong only makes you the proverbial ostrich with a small plat of sand."

Fine

this seems to prove she is immortal

"Circe promised them immortality, but how was she intending to deliver it?

"Thanks to the sorceress Circe, Artemis is also immortal." Comic vines

"Especially when she cannot cast one spell without first reversing the other?"

Powers & Abilities

Circe is an high level witch, her sorcery allows her to manipulate reality through incantations and spells. As a goddess level sorceress she is granted with ageless immortality. Her most known and main feat was to turn objects and people alike into various sorts of animals. With her ability to seduce others with her natural charms and beauty, Circe is an excellent master manipulator. During her time in Hell, she gained the limited ability to manipulate the dead to do her bidding, but much is not known of this since her resurface to Earth. When she received Wonder Woman's powers, she wielded the lasso of truth added by athame she carried. Her strength and durability greatly increased due to the power boost she obtained, though this was only temporary as Wonder Woman received them back.

• Projective Animal Metamorphosis: Her most known and main feat was to turn objects and people alike into various sorts of animals. She prefers to transform men into various animals. Some of her victims have become pigs, monkeys, large cats, boars and even birds and have retained their ability to think and sometimes even speak. In these forms, they are subjective to Circe and often in a tranquilized state unable to retaliate. With another gesture, Circe can restore her victims to normal.
• Matter Transmogrification: She can transform objects and beings into whatever form she desires.
• Reality Alteration: Her sorcery allows her to manipulate reality through incantations and spells.
• Immortality: As a goddess level sorceress she is granted with ageless immortality.
• Alter Minds: She can alter minds and control them utterly.
• Magic Blasts: Can fire destructive magical energy blasts.
• Magical Shields: Able to erect physical shields through her magic prowess.
• Sound Manipulation: She's shown the ability to project her voice over long distances with extreme pressure.
• Clairvoyance: Circe also seems to have limited clairvoyant potential, mostly to be able to detect guests to her island and the presence of other immortals in her company. She was able to detect Hermes in an invisible state when he visited her.
• Illusion Casting: Capable of creating illusions. She's also capable of making people see someone who isn't even that person. She made it seem to Tom Tresser that she was Wonder Woman.
• Teleportation: Capable of tapping even cosmic energies, she could teleport between dimensions such as from Earth to Olympus.
• Necromancy: During her time in Hell, she gained the limited ability to manipulate the dead to do her bidding, but much is not known of this since her resurface to Earth.
• Superhuman Strength : (formerly) Her strength was greatly increased due to the power boost she obtained, though this was only temporary as Wonder Woman received them back.
• Superhuman Durability : (formerly) Her durability was greatly increased due to the power boost she obtained, though this was only temporary as Wonder Woman received them back.
• Charisma : She has the ability to seduce others with her natural charm.
• Alchemy: She can create potions to transform individuals or for granting power comparable to the gods.

Weaknesses

• Moly: The herb disrupts Circe's magic.

Immortality Immunity: She is unable to use some of her more basic magics on immortals. Instead she must plot and plan different strategies to affect immortals such as Wonder Woman and other gods in creative and indirect ways.

where does it say that

"I can see that you only took the effort to skim and did not waste any of your time learning. If you intend to be anything more than a simple scan dumper on this thread,"

I posted scans links and quotes and you didn't "learn" that batman COULD defeat Wonder wimp

"I would highly recommend that you take the time to at least address all portions of your opponents argument, not only the sentences you think are weakest."

starting now

"That is the mistake of a novice and it smacks of laziness and a lack of intellect. I pray, for your sake, that this not your measure of your debating skill and instead is just you having a laugh."

Flag-able bait

"Once again, in the hopes you actually read the argument, Circe promised them immortality upon taking the island."

I'm not interested in wonder wimp, she is a poop character. I can't stand her along with 3 others Damian Wayne, spider wimp, and connor from assassins creed 3 (not as good as the others) but I looked on wikiapidia, 2 wikis, and comic vines and have a picture of her being immortal

"How else could she possibly have given them immortality when she had not the magical power to deliver that gift in any shape or form besides getting them to Themyscira, where they could take the island for themselves and thus, win their immortality?"

She can though. Post scans of her not being able to please

"You also ignored all the other relevant information, so without further ado and please, take the time to actually ready instead of cherry picking:"

So did you all you did was call these out of context

That's not a debate that's ignoring facts to suite your aurgument

"Again you lifted a quote from a Wikipedia, which I already told you was false. If you insist on believing something that I can freely edit myself, would it make you feel better if I corrected the wiki in question?"

I'd feel better if you can post scans if you can. DO IT!!

"Would you then be willing to accept my words on whether or not Circe granted Amazons immortality?"

If you posted scans

"While you are thinking that one over, explain to me why Circe would grant Amazons immortality in the first place?"

to trick them.

"Also, explain to me why the Bana wanted to go to Themyscira in the first place, if not for their immortality? It is a location that they, the Bana, have never seen. Even their ancestors, Hippolyta’s own sister included, did not see Themyscira."

They are a splinter group though

"Once Hippolyta liberated the Amazons from Heracles, the gods came to take the Amazons to Themyscira if they were willing to let go of their hate. Hippolyta and her half of the Amazons did this and thus were allowed to enter the island. Hippolyta’s sister and her group were unable to forgive men for what they had done and thus, turned their backs on the gods and the gift of eternal youth."

They left after the destruction of there city state

"You’ll notice that the Bana would have no reason to go to Themyscira at all if Circe granted them immortality. None. Yet it was not to do Circe’s bidding that drove them to the try and take the island, no not at all. The Bana were committed to taking the island because they felt entitled to the immortality granted therein. I just read the issue, for you sake. Nowhere was it said that Circe granted immortality. Artemis only said that immortality was their right as Amazons. It would have been wise to come to this thread asking for information, rather than trying to use a Wikipedia as though it was a superior substitute for firsthand knowledge. Another rookie mistake, I’m afraid."

Proof via scans please

"Yes, Artemis did in fact have other Amazons with her. None of them contributed to the fight in question though."

Half the problem in Amazons attack was about The Justice League beating the crud from an army of Amozons though

And even so Batman didn't have time for a show.

and she is enhanced

"So I am yet again, finding myself balking at your position on the matter. It is one thing to state something as fact when you know not the truth but it is another entirely when you sputter such ignorance with such arrogance. It almost elicits feelings of pity from me."

Flag-able bait

"I am confused on why such actions are the makings of a coward, however."

Because a group of meta humans attacking a "normal" man is coward behavior

"When a combat unit performs a mission, are they cowards for bringing their entire squads along?"

There's a difference between a group of metas vs one man and a squad of normal people vs a squad of normal people

"Or are only the ones that have filled their minds with too many action movies and refuse assistance from their comrades to be men that are revered in your mind?"

"It is fine that you think Artemis is a coward."

Thank you dude

"It would not be the first mistake or blatant display of ignorance on your part and I regretfully am predicting it shall not be your last. I am confident that the possibility of your continued ignorance on the subject being discussed will only grow, rather than shrink as more information is presented. Quite sad indeed when someone is so opposed to a position, that even when proven wrong, they refuse all evidence and even go as far as to fabricate information of their own where convenient."

Like wise I have scans and quotes and proof and you have bias information and a dictionary

"Yes, Artemis was ordered to delay Batman. Yes, she decided to ignore those orders and take it upon herself to kill the Dark Knight because it would prevent loose ends and is much more convenient to kill an opponent rather than incapacitate them."

And then batman stopped her

"I’m sorry but you have been quoting my argument and replying with scans yet, not one of those scans actually addresses my argument."

Prove it

"It is your hopes that you can simply win users over with flash instead of substance?"

What ever you say dictionary boy

"The list of lazy and novice mistakes you are making as a debater continues to expand, my dear friend. Allow me to repeat myself, because it seems as though you have some difficulty understanding my words of choice here:"

Flag-able bait

"Artemis also didn’t have backup that influenced the battle, unless you are saying that Batman feared the possibility that an Amazon would kick him from behind,"

Wouldn't you be if she said "WE were told to delay you" whilst your attacker was holding a knife

"so he was never able to fully protect himself."

She didn't protect herself from that needle lodged in her neck by 250 pounds of muscle and vengeance or this

That would be a position that I would personally find hard to believe but please, feel free to support such a position with a thorough breakdown of the scene. Will you please provide narrative on where Batman felt ill at ease, due to several scantily-clad women? Or even some kind of footnote that explains how Batman trembles at the sight of bows? It is a unique argument, so I am extremely interested to see what you can come up with.

"This was your position, I only wanted you to expand on it. You seem to be hesitant now. Is it because I have pointed out the ridiculous nature of your position? If you wish to withdraw on this particular point, I would understand. The claim that Batman is afraid of a group of Amazons is preposterous. Even if Batman knows he cannot win, he would be unshaken by the sight of several Amazonian warriors. Fear of injury or death is not something Batman is capable of. His fears are of a different variety. So I understand why you would hope that I would forget that you had taken up such a wild claim. Unfortunately for you, dear friend, I have not."

Now this is a straw man

"Artemis is indeed one of the fiercest of the Amazons. That much is in fact, true. Though I am unsure of how that is relevant here, in the arguments you have proposed at the very least."

BECAUSE SHE IS BETTER THAN WONDER WOMAN THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE FORUM.

"It is just filler for your post, I imagine. Nothing but fluff to pad your argument, and make it look like you have something important to say."

Just like your fancy words and TLTR essays

"Ferocity does not mean immortality, superhuman ability, nor does it indicate fighting ability."

Being super human does though

"The fact that you brought it up at all causes me a moment of pause."

"Your admission that Batman can be defeated by Bane also seems unusual for the portion of my post that you had highlighted anyway."

Bane skill in h2h >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wonder Wimps skill in h2h

"I also am not sure what you intended to convey by saying, ‘not interested’."

"I ask you only to extend this same open mind to all characters, not just the ones you think are cool." This, not interested in this

"Did you mean that you are not interested in having an intellectual debate? Because I really need no admission from you on this matter. It is painfully clear in your posts, but I do appreciate the willingness to admit that you have nothing to offer this thread but a scan dump of irrelevancy."

Flag-able bait

Furthermore, I never said Cassandra beat him.

You implied it, but she can't

"No, actually. The Sandals of Hermes do grant flight and Artemis did in fact have these sandals during her time as Wonder Woman but much like the Gauntlet of Atlas, she lost them at the time of her death. There is also Amazonian armor that grants flight but until we see Artemis with golden metal wings attached to a golden plate and battle skirt, she does not have them. If you meant Diana herself, then no. Wonder Woman of the Post Crisis era was able to fly under her own power."

Thank you

"Oh dear, you seem to be confused again. You did indeed fuss over what you claimed was a durability enhancement enjoyed by Wonder Woman in the form of her indestructible bracelets. To say otherwise would be to be caught in a lie."

Do I look like I'm crying or complaining?

You are not a liar, are you?

You are

"You claim to have learned much about Batman over the years but why then are you showing nothing of relevance where it concerns Batman?"

THEY ARE RELEVANT TO PROVING SHE AIN'T THE BEST H2H FIGHTER THERE IS

"All you have even attempted to do is devalue the feats of other characters through sheer ignorant posts. Frankly, I would be insulted if any respectable debater on this site presented his or her arguments as you have. It shows a complete lack of respect for facts, logic, and reason. These are your three enemies, not I."

You are a fool. Next time try posting scans

"My horse where it concerns Wonder Woman is indeed high. But then again, there has never been anyone on this site that knows nearly as much as I do on the character. So the height of my horse and the pride in which I take in it, is completely justified. If you know much about Batman, then you certainly are not respecting yourself in showing it."

Debatable there is always one who knows more than you (as in people in general so I'm not calling you out)

"Hmmm… What a weak attempt at turning the question around on me and in fact,"

Fine I'll answer

Batman= Already beat her/ skilled in 127 martial arts

Deathstroke= already beat her

Shiva= knows secret moves knows pressure points knows as much as batman

Bane= invented his own style/ batmans equal

Ra's= invented fencing

ect

"you have revealed your own bigotry in the process. First of all, it does not take a woman to appreciate and love the character that is Wonder Woman."

I never said that, nor implied it

"So your assumptions that I am female based only on the fact that I defend her position in this thread is quite incriminating, indeed. Furthermore, I never made the claim that Batman cannot beat Wonder Woman. Not once was this my argument. However,

Cry me a river

"the scans you have provided in any number of their exchanges does not support any reasonable argument that Batman can indeed defeat Wonder Woman in fair combat."

Batman knocking her across the floor does prove he can beat her

"We have only sparring matches, in which Wonder Woman must restrain herself to keep from harming Batman,"

Proving she needs her powers to beat any one

"or you have not only out of context fights,"

Because I don't need to post half a comic to prove my point

"but out of universe fights that you have presented as factual evidence to support your claim."

Doesn't matter feats a feat

"If you were at all as knowledgeable about Batman as you claim, none of the scans you have used would be presented here. Alas, they have been. So I can only assume the strength of your knowledge on Batman is as shallow as a kiddy pool. That might not be the case but it is indeed all you have given me to judge you by."

1) feats a feat

2) flag-able bait

3)

"I really appreciate that you have provided a scan of the Gauntlets of Atlas that actually support my argument, thank you."

Ummmmm no

"If you will read my excerpt that you have pulled from my post for your reply, you will note that I was the one that told you that they only appeared as two items in their initial appearance and then were thereafter, retconned into one for the sake of convenience on the Messner-Loebs’ part."

She's still is a 15 toner with out them

"I dislike providing scans, myself. I personally find arguments overloaded with scans to be lazy."

Arguments with proof is lazy in your terms then.

"However, in your case, I will offer you a scan of Artemis just before her death, to show that the Gauntlets of Atlas became the Gauntlet of Atlas. You may also note that in my scan and in the scan that you have provided me from… yet again a Wikipedia of all places… Anyway, you will note that both are shown to be especially elaborate in design, as a silver bracelets adorned with a golden snake."

Proof finally

"Now, tell me friend, do you see such a bracelet on Artemis in the fight where Batman tied her up with some bolas? You know, the one where you claimed she was wearing the aforementioned bracelets? No? Please, check again, for your own sake if nothing else."

Different artists draw things differently

"I am sure you don’t like being made a fool of and I think that you may actually be capable of becoming a decent debater one day. But a decent debater must learn to admit when they have stepped in, as they say, the dog sh!t."

I have proof you have nothing but insults and long winded paragraphs

"Oh my, is that intimidation I detect? If it is, be not afraid. I am not using a thesaurus at all. I am using only the power of my exceptionally beautiful brain. And just to put to bed any question on the quality of my argument,"

Proof-less, scan-less, TLTR argument

"I have already invited several people to look over this thread for their opinions on both the quality of my argument and of course, your sentence fragments and oversized pictures."

"Not one person felt you were deserving of any measure of respect as a debater, I’m afraid. Now, I would not call you a clown, because that would be disrespectful and a breach of the rules on this forum. However, similar words were used by our peers to describe you in private."

You've been disrespectful to me and @Jayc1324

"If you wish to make for better arguments, I would be more than happy to instruct you. You could become my pupil of sorts."

"That is, of course, assuming you could stand to have a superior teach you anything."

Not trying to be threatening I'm just saying I've been taught a lot and that comment is stupid but I've learned martial arts, wrestling, and do well in school

Also no one said you are superior

“He can bleed Darksied with a kick, Wonder Woman is lower mid tier at best and Batman is 250 pounds of pure muscle”

Oh my. I must withdraw my offer. I think you are in fact, beyond any kind of help. If these are the positions you want to take, it is clear you will never become a debater worth any kind of respect or notoriety.

Sorry you feel that way

"Oh, you have a problem with the strategy employed by Batman in Hiketeia. Did you actually read the mini or did you just see the scans of the fight and assume the absolute worst?"

"All right you win"

vs

Batman isn't known for giving up, even here

Bane "scream my name"

Batman never

"I am guessing the latter because if you had actually read the issue, you would know that it was only Batman trying to exploit an Amazonian tradition, nothing more. It seems like your hate is unfounded."

I hate it because of the poor characterization of Batman

"Why are you brining up Kingdom Come?"

That's the only time she dealt with nuclear bombs

"That was not the reference I was making by saying that she withstood a nuclear explosion."

She never did

"It has been some time since I read Kingdom Come but I do not believe that Wonder Woman was even present for the nuclear explosion in that mini."

Every one was

"It would not be poor writing, I am afraid. Wonder Woman has, on many occasions, shown that she has durability on par with Superman. Superman obviously has greater durability"

Nope she only fairs so well against him because of her magic, not strength

"but the fact remains that Wonder Woman is more than capable of withstanding a nuclear explosion."

She never did

"But I think I will wait for you to deny it at least once more so I can spread the use of scans out."

She never did

"Once again, I try to use scans as little as possible because excessive use of scans is a crutch for the lesser debaters."

You are a fool, a silver tongue isn't what proves your argument facts do and the fact is Batman has bested her in h2h

"Okay, I will adopt your position that being struck by a sneak attack is an appropriate measure of a person’s fighting ability. Is it your position that Batman is far too skilled to be taken by surprise?"

very few people can

"I ask with eager anticipation of your own figurative seppuku."

There is no honor in a street fight.

"What does the motive of a writer have to do with whether or not plot induced stupidity is actually a real trope?"

"#48 Edited by BlueLantern1995 (3080 posts) - 6 days, 12 hours ago - Show Bio

So true, agreed."

"#20 Posted by roboadmiral (557 posts) - 7 days, 53 minutes ago - Show Bio

Not really. The performance of any given character varies so widely between writers, story arcs, etc, that establishing what a character's concrete limitations are is pretty much impossible because there are none. Mostly it's just a thing for people to shout angrily when their favorite character loses a fight or someone they dislike wins a fight without having to come up with a good, logically plot-based reason for the fight to have gone the other way. Also, it belies a lack of understanding that a story is a story first, not a computer simulator of hypothetical battles."

"#18 Posted by Jayc1324 (15349 posts) - 7 days, 1 hour ago - Show Bio

PIS is not real. It is something people on comicvine created as an excuse for when there's a feat they don't like. People need to understand that comic books are not written for feats. The writers care little about maintaining feats, they write stories. Whatever they give us is what we have to deal with."

"You are being unclear, sir. I told you this would happen earlier. That you would be so eager to oppose my every word that you would start to trip on words of your own. Oh dear, what a tragedy."

You've not one link and a picture of a bracelet, and you think you've beaten me

"I’m sorry but no. A scan or series of scans, do not become relevant simply because you wish them to be or because you say they are."

What the heck is the title? Wonder Woman Most skillful Fighter So batman defeating her is relevant

"You have scans from another universe, which has no bearing here,"

Feats are feats

"you have scans that are out of context, which have no bearing here,"

Not one scan was out of context, and prove it if you can.

"and you have scans that outright don’t support your arguments in any way, which obviously also have no bearing here."

Not really

"All you did was perform a scattershot of Wonder Woman being injured or flipped. It is quite a large menagerie, I assure you but it is not really that relevant at all to this topic."

It proves she isn't the most skilled fighter

"All it has done is illustrate your bias against Wonder Woman to the exclusion of all reason."

And your bias for her

"Normally I would exit an argument at this stage because your defeat is only too clear to any observer but I find your silliness to be quite amusing, so I believe I will stick around for a while to see what more I can disprove from you."

Bait

Deafet is a stranger to me leave the debate like a coward if you like

"Deathstroke did not defeat Wonder Woman in the scans you have provided. I apologize if someone misinformed you but all Deathstroke managed to do was surprise her. She very handedly defeated Deathstroke on the very next page."

With powers

"Sorry but the title of the forum in actually Wonder Woman. The title of the thread is what asks the question on her fighting ability."

Fair enough

"A minor clarification but I wouldn’t want to miss an opportunity, even the easy ones."

Bait

"Oh you have resorted to the strawman argument. That was another tactic I had foretold in an earlier post."

That's what you did the entire time, I've been proving she isn't the most skilled, which is true.

"I never said Wonder Woman is as strong as Superman. She isn’t. But I appreciate the attempt at the strawman.

You said she was as durable which is bull

"It tells me that you are getting desperate for even a minor victory."

Wait what?

"I wouldn’t want to miss an opportunity, even the easy ones."

Well then what's this?

"Thank you."

No thank you

"Well no one put me in charge of what is plot induced stupidity but why would this matter if anyone put me in charge of such a thing, even though I am clearly capable of such responsibilities."

You'd be to bias towards Wonder wimp

"After all, you claimed that plot induced stupidity doesn’t exist at all, so even if I was Commander in Chief of what is plot induced stupidity and what is not, couldn’t you just pretend that your opinion is the only valid one?"

I think I explained that well enough above

"You know, like you have already been doing?"

Is Wonder Woman the most skilled? No

Is she the most useful to the JLA? No Batman and Superman and the Flash are.

Is she the most powerful in the JLA? No Batman in the Hellbat and Superman are

"But one does not need to be in charge of what is plot induced stupidity and what is not to make such a call. It is obvious in some cases and in other cases, it is usually a general consensus that makes such a judgment call."

Fair enough

"Well I would never say that you are dumb but since you offered it, I do think something along those lines. Guilty as charged."

Unholy plebeian, tell me, why do you prefer Wonder Wench compared to The Dark Knight? Is it because you enjoy spiting me?

"That is not correct, I am afraid."

When else do heroes go all out on each other?

"At least not always. Possessions are not actually the character themselves. They are being heavily influenced by another entity, device, or some other outside influence that make them perform actions that they themselves would never perform."

Other wise they wouldn't fight at all, why would Wonder wimp or Batman just start fighting?

So while you believe to think otherwise is foolish, there hasn’t been a lot from you that would indicate I should be seeking any kind of approval from you. In fact, I would go as far as to say that if we ever were in agreement, I might have to seriously reconsider my position… in any matter.

"In the scan you used to prove that Wonder Woman was not possessed while she was defeated is also an irrelevant scan. You see, that is from Red Son. That is an Elseworld and has absolutely no kind of weight in a discussion about any version of the characters but the Elseworld that they are from."

I know where it is from, Red Sun= Russian Superman story

Feats a feat

"If you are indeed better than I am at debating, I wonder how much longer I will be forced to wait until you show any measure of skill at all."

I'm better because I post proof, I'm better because I'm right.

"You’re right. I should not be telling you what to do. Asking you to debate like an adult or intellectual was indeed out of place and I had forgotten my manners."

1) All comic fans are children in the inside

2) Oh really?

"I wouldn’t want to miss an opportunity, even the easy ones."

"who is more hated and thought less of as a fighter because of misogynist sensibilities."

"the strength of your knowledge on Batman is as shallow as a kiddy pool"

"I say his posts can be broken down into the word, "Nu-uh!" and his reply is," (towards jayc1324

All you did is call @jayc1324 out and call me a clown

Covering your words with a serpents tongue doesn't make you less wrong

"Allow me to rephrase. Would you be willing to debate as though you are a person capable of complex thought? Not for me, of course, but for any potential readers of this thread? I am sure that debating at a much higher level (as you say, you are not even trying) would be far more entertaining than the performance you have provided."

1) Would you?

2) I never said that

"I never called you dumb. I don’t even like the word ‘dumb’. If you would please quote the section of the post where I actually called you dumb, I would appreciate it. If I made such a mistake, I would prefer to apologize for it."

Earlier you called me out, with help from your friends

"If you find reading to be too taxing, I apologize but I cannot ‘dumb it down’. I like posting in this manner. You will just have to learn to apply yourself in a debate with me, I’m afraid."

I have school and a job that's my problem, not you wasting time. I think I'm doing fine.

Why? Do you talk like that in real life? You must not have many friends then.

Oh my, that would be the Gauntlet but look here, there is only one. Color me shocked!

Sort of like how different drawers draw differently.

Holy crap.

@makhai: Um no. This whole thread in question grew to around 3 pages of back and fourth argument simply after you lashed out at a user for saying that Wonder Woman isn't that skilled. Judging from your comments, you clearly harbor some grudge against said user in question considering how your comment was directed clearly at him. All I did was input my two cents in this.

And you really are coming off as a fanboy to me considering how from the beginning you seemed to get mad when said user said that a stats equalized WW beating Bruce is bad writing when she doesn't have that much feats to gauge her even being near Bruce's level. I still want to see any noteworthy feats of Diana beating any good martial artist no powers involved, and consistently doing it. While sparring with Canary and Bruce is good and all, Canary once said that it would stupid of her to face Bruce in martial combat and her sparring with Bruce is nothing more than sparring. She obviously not only held back. And if powers were involved then Bruce shouldn't even be able to hurt her given how her powers allow her to tank far more punishment.

As for me coming off as stubborn and ignorant? I think you should browse around the site more. Feats are evidence and is what is used here on the Vine to gauge a character's power level and back up arguments in the battle forums or when discussing characters. Not fanfiction and personal opinions. Simply put, Diana isn't on Bruce's level until feats show she is.

If Wonder Woman had consistent feats of defeating any noteworthy martial artist, without powers or any jobbing/plot related context involved then I may shift my opinion to saying that Diana may be on Bruce's level. So no. I'm not completely shutting my ears to reason like you imply I am.

You're twisting my words I never said that Diana's a complete dolt in fighting. In contrast to people like Clark or Teth, she's pretty skilled. But she just isn't on Bruce's level. Cap is a better match up for Bruce in terms of skill. I even stated somewhere on this thread that Diana's skilled but not on Bruce's level. And as for your proof of Diana showing off martial prowess, I could also show you proof of Diana wailing Minerva (basically fighting like a madwoman) to a bloody plup multiple times.

It's hard to gauge Diana's fighting prowess tbh considering how sometimes you see sparring with Canary or getting compliments from Batman and the next time.. you have her punching her way through things.

@comicace3: Did I do good? :D

@saint_sophie: Ooooohhhhh

This girl's good

Thanks if that was a compliment? :)

@saint_sophie: Yes, it was.

Ooh thanks. :)

Nice scans btw as well. Hehe.

@saint_sophie: ;)

the other girl doesn't think so.

That Makhai user is a girl?

@username12345: I am sorry that you have become too lazy to actually read the arguments put against you. How can you possibly be taken seriously as a debater if you are not at least willing to read the opposition? I have given you the respect of reading your every word, yet you cannot give me the same respect as a debater here? I wish I could say that I am surprised but if this is the kind of debater that you wish to be, I doubt I could ever cause you to be better. You seem to relish in your inferiority as a debater, which honestly breaks my heart because it is becomingly increasingly clear that you are only here to troll, as you have little to offer this debate other than Wikipedia quotes and a library of pictures that are not relevant to this thread. For this, I regret to inform you that I am now going to start flagging your posts.

I never used sexism as an excuse for Wonder Woman’s ability but the evidence seems to indicate that sexism is playing a role in your opinion here.

You are not growing tired of being wrong all the time? That is quite the all right with me, as I never grow tired of being right all the time either. Perhaps we can complement one another in this. You get to continue to be wrong and I get to continue being right on the simplest of things. It is a win-win situation.

Comicvine’s Wikipedia is not a factual representation of comics. It is, regretfully, free to users to edit and so long as someone is not deliberately trolling a wiki page, any edit will likely go unnoticed unless the moderator approving or denying the edit is knowledgeable in the character in question. The moderators are only human, after all. They cannot be expected to know everything there is to know about any and all characters. That is a silly expectation.

But since you insist on using Wikipedia as your source of information, where is the reference to the issue where Artemis performed such a feat? I will wait for you to come up with this evidence. If you find an issue, I will be able to provide you with a synopsis of the issue in question and if you insist, I will provide you with scans of the feat in question as well. This is well outside my comfort zone to do but I am so very committed to teaching you something about the Amazons, it would only make me too happy to prove you wrong at least once more.

Yes, Artemis was able to defeat Wonder Woman in combat, while sapping Wonder Woman’s powers and abilities up to and including combat prowess. I believe that I already explained this to you, did you already forget? It was only two posts ago that I ran you through a brief summary of the spell that was taking Diana’s physical and mental abilities and transferring them to Artemis. In fact, it was you that had quoted the Wikipedia that referenced this exact occasion. How can you be ignorant to something that you had tried to use in the debate? You puzzle me, friend.

Why would I not call you friend? You seem eager to converse with me ad infinitum. Who would do such a thing but a friend?

Oh no, you are mistaken yet again. Artemis was resurrected after her death, she married one of the princes of Hell and using this marriage, secured the means necessary to resurrect herself. She was still very much a mortal before and after her resurrection. But it is amazing that you are not even checking the facts for this anymore, just pumping out pictures you think look pretty.

Yes, I understand that you think Wikipedia knows more than DC comics does. But please, furnish the scan from the Bana that says that Circe was able to grant them immortality? No? Oh but you were so good at getting pictures of things that had no relevancy in this thread, I had assumed that you were also capable of providing something useful for a change. It appears that you are only a one-trick pony. How unfortunate.

Once again, I will have provided you with scans that prove Circe is not able to grant immortality or even permanent superhuman stats to any character. She was bound by the Lasso of Truth when she made this admission. It is canon and has never been contradicted since it was established. Unfortunately for you, you are wrong yet again. I am sorry for you, sir. But I can promise you that if you stopped using a Wikipedia as your source, you might not look like such a terrible debater.

You posted many scans, once again I admit that this is true. However, not a single scan you used mattered here. So you might as well have not posted it at all. It was wasted space, much like your entire debating strategy. Calling Wonder Woman ‘Wonder Wimp’ only reinforces my factual claim that her potential superiority makes you extremely uncomfortable. Those darn women, am I right? They belong in the kitchen and nowhere else.

I am sorry but that is incorrect. I did not say that you did indeed lack intellect. I said that your post lacked intellect. It is not a justified sentence to flag but if you are offended, please feel free to flag my posts. It would give me enormous amounts of pleasure to have a moderator tell you that you are wrong as well.

A poop character, you say? Well I did not think your debating strategy could become more juvenile but I was mistaken. Shame on me then, for underestimating your willingness to lower yourself. I should have known that class is one of the things you would shirk when defeated in a debate.

Post Crisis Wonder Woman does indeed have eternal youth but I am unsure on what that has to do with this debate or her quality as a character. I had no idea that immortality automatically qualified a character to be defined as a ‘poop character’. It seems that your standards are quite low.

You want me to post scans of her not doing something? That is an amusing demand, to say the least. Come now, friend. You take the fun out of beating you when you seem to enjoy being impossible to respect.

No, I will say that the scans of Artemis you have repeatedly posted are in fact, fine scans. But they don’t help you, they help me. You said that Artemis is superhuman. I proved that to be a lie. You said that she wore the Gauntlet of Atlas, I again proved that to be a lie. You said that Batman beat her in hand to hand, I again proved that to be a lie. How do the scans of Batman fighting and losing to Artemis or incapacitating Artemis altogether to avoid having to fight her help your argument? They don’t. All they do is furnish me with the evidence that I need to make my case against you. So thank you for making my job all the easier. I actually did not have scans of Artemis from Batman: Confidentiality. So you have provided me with a boon for all future debates concerning Artemis. I honestly thank you, no sarcasm intended there.

The scan of Batman knocking Wonder Woman out with a kick is clearly poor writing, as Wonder Woman has stats that literally make such a feat impossible and in fact, are proven to be impossible by the scan you put just three scans beneath it. I find it hilarious that I barely even need to try to beat you. You have taken it upon yourself to beat you. Thank you for that.

The second scan is from New 52 and because it is an Elseworld, has no bearing in a conversation about Post Crisis Wonder Woman. But even if you want to talk about New 52 Wonder Woman, that feat would still be invalid due to the fact that it is not hand to hand. It is Batman in a robotic suit of undisclosed power and speed. It is one of your more irrelevant scans.

Your third scan is also from an Elseworld. Red Son, to be exact. It has no bearing here either and the nature of Batman’s victory over Wonder Woman here was also not one of hand to hand. There goes yet another one of your scans.

The fourth scan I already explained. It was a sparring match that had Wonder Woman flipped once, where she explains how the first scan is impossible. It should also be noted that Wonder Woman defeated Batman immediately after that scan. With ease, I might add.

The fifth scan I am having a hard time remembering but I believe that it was a dream. Unless you have the reference for the issue? I would be more than happy to provide context for this scan if you only would tell me the issue. Odds are that I have it, since it tingles the back of my memory.

And the sixth scan shows that Wonder Woman was not operating under her own faculties. So I can’t imagine how that would have any relevance in a thread about Wonder Woman when it technically wasn’t even Wonder Woman at all. That one is just icing on the cake for me, wasn’t it? Do you like making it ridiculously easy to defeat your arguments? Why spend all your time to just be made a mockery of? Are you a masochist? Legitimate question sir, no sarcasm intended.

There is no suite in my arguments. If there were, I would spend all my time there, getting lavish massages and taking mud baths and body wraps. If you meant suit my arguments, well that is also a lie. For you see, I have read and responded to your every word. Very carefully, out of respect for you as a debater. Alas, I find it regretful that you are unwilling to extend the same courtesy.

I already posted a scan, friend. I am going to provide you with the very scan you desire, at the bottom of this page.

I cannot post scans of something that never happened. Circe never gave them immortality, so I obviously cannot post scans proving that. All I can do is explain who she is as a character and what she can do. Whether or not you choose to believe the facts I have given you is your prerogative. Which is unfortunate because, as you have already proven, learning is beyond your ability.

Okay, so you believe that the Bana would accept that Circe had granted them immortality just because she says she did? Even when they had already expressed that they did not trust her way back in Wonder Woman volume one? I find that hard to believe? The Bana were the most cunning and dangerous of all the mercenaries on Earth at the time, yet you find it at all believable that they would just march into battle for someone that claimed she had made them immortal? Are you even reading the words you are putting to you post, sir?

Yes, the Bana-Migdhall are in fact a splinter group of the Themyscira Amazons. As I said before however, they had split before the Amazons had gone to the island. Yes, they left after the destruction of their city state. But this was still just before the Amazons were taken to the mythical island, I’m afraid.

What proof are you asking for? Do you want proof that the island grants immortality? That’s easy enough and it requires no scans at all. For you see, Hippolyta, Wonder Woman’s own mother, is the very same Amazon that Heracles captured and raped 3,000 years ago. What more do you need? Zeus told them that so long as they lived on the island, they would live forever.

Yes, the Amazons in Amazons Attack had more than just foot soldiers. I am unsure on how that matters here though.

How is her sparring with Supergirl evidence that Artemis is enhanced? Even assuming she was enhanced, she would require Supergirl-level stats to engage Supergirl on even footing, which is a ridiculous claim. Sparring with Supergirl is no more evidence that she is enhanced in any way than Batman sparring with Wonder Woman is. That is probably the silliest thing you have said in this entire thread. It is self-defeating, which seems to be your debating axiom.

Again no. I am sorry to inform you of this but telling you that you are posting from a position of ignorance is not a post that is justified in flagging. But again, feel free to do so.

I don’t think you understand what cowardice behavior actually is. You may note that none of the Amazons engaged Batman, save for one. An argument for cowardice could be made if one of the Amazons had engaged Batman from behind, after he had started to fight Artemis but this never happened. So I am going to have to disagree with you there as well. My-my, there is so very little of your argument that is not crumbling under its own buffoonery. Just to be clear, I am not saying you are a buffoon, I only am saying that your argument is and it seems decidedly deliberate.

Oh please, provide me with these scans, quotes, and other ‘proof’ that I have bias information and… a dictionary?

Yes, Batman managed to avoid being killed. He still lost the hand to hand exchange, which is being discussed here. No one questions Batman’s ability to use gadgets, when necessary.

I am all too happy to prove that the scans are irrelevant. In fact, I already did a few paragraph above this sentence. You are very welcome.

Dictionary boy is not really an insult to me, I hope you know. Mocking someone for being your intellectual superior is quite the insecure tactic, my friend.

Saying that you have been lazy and that you make novice debating mistakes is also not against the rules. I have taken great lengths to explain the reasoning behind my opinion of you. There is not a single soul that believes I have failed to prove how terrible of a debater you are, and there has been quite a few eyes that have fallen on this discussion, I assure you.

So because Artemis said ‘We’ instead of ‘I’, the other Amazons somehow influenced Batman’s defeat? That is curious. Where is the scans of the other Amazons contributing in any meaningful way to Batman’s defeat? Are you leaving scans out? Have you forgotten a page? It seems that way.

I fail to see how it matters that Artemis was rendered unconscious by the use of a tranquilizer dart. What does that have to do with hand to hand combat?

Furthermore, you post a scan of Batman evading a punch from Artemis, yet you want me to believe that Batman is slower than Artemis due to her superhuman stats? Will you please make up your mind on what position you want to take in this regard? Do you want to say that Artemis is superhuman or not? If she is superhuman, Batman would be unable to evade her strike. If she is merely peak human, he can but then every single one of your posts is rendered invalid. I mean, I have already rendered them invalid but this time, you would be forced to admit that they are invalid.

That is not a strawman at all. You literally said that the presence of the other Amazons cause Batman to be defeated, yet there was no actions that I saw where the Amazons contributed to his defeat. What else could there be but some mental factor that was not stated? This is your own argument, not a strawman. If you feel that it is not your argument, you may want to make your arguments more clear.

Artemis is not superior to Wonder Woman, I regret to inform you. If she was in fact, Wonder Woman’s superior, then Hippolyta would not have needed to resort to cheating to give Artemis a victory in the competition for the Wonder Woman title. On the island at the time, Wonder Woman was powerless. If she was indeed the inferior fighter, she would have lost by her own lack of ability. But no, Hippolyta had to give Artemis Wonder Woman’s own skills to get her to win.

I find it debatable that Bane is superior to Wonder Woman in fighting skill. I don’t believe there is any evidence to support this.

No no, I am sorry to inform you that yet again, saying that you are refusing to have an intellectual debate is not grounds to flag a post.

Crying and making a fuss are not the same thing, I am afraid. I doubt you have shed any tears here. I think if you actually had any respect for yourself or the damage you are doing to Batman’s reputation, you might shed at least one tear though.

Oh my, you have called me several names. A liar and a fool, to be exact. I made sure to screen shot it as well. I am going to ask that you no longer call anyone any names, else I will be forced to bring a moderator into this thread. Name-calling is against the rules of the forums. Please restrain yourself, my friend. Losing a debate is hard, I imagine. But you will need to keep from calling people names unless you want to get into trouble.

I’m sorry but no. The scans you have provided have done no such thing. In fact, I would say the very last thing they have accomplished in this thread is proving that she isn’t the best fighter there is.

There probably is someone in this world that knows more about Wonder Woman than me. I have never heard of such a person but I am sure they exist. It’s a shame they don’t frequent this website, however. So the argument that someone knows more than me about Wonder Woman is practically worthless here, much like all your posts.

What do you mean by ‘cry me a river’? That does not make much sense in the context in which you have used it, as it applies to my quoted except. I don’t think that means what you think it means, friend.

Oh I am so sorry. But Batman did not knock Wonder Woman across the floor in any of the scans you had posted. Would you care to provide a reference to the fight you are referring to? I am all too happy to look up the feat in question.

No, restraining herself does not actually prove that she needs powers to beat a character. It only says that she has powers. That was actually one of your better attempts but it still falls wonderfully short of decent.

You don’t need to post half a comic to prove your point but it would be nice if you posted at least one scan that was relevant to the thread in question. Surely that is not outside of your scope of ability, now is it?

Okay, let’s assume that we can generalize and say ‘feats are feats’. Care to give the context of these feats?

I seem to be finding you to be a person that is easily offended. Saying that you lack knowledge on a character is not an offense that is capable of being flagged. If that is something that is hurting your feelings, I would recommend that you take a break from this debate, cool down, and return after you have regained control of your emotions. This thread will not be going anywhere, I promise you. I will gladly respond to any of your future attempts at what you think is debating. Just please, regain control of yourself.

Yes, you did indeed provide me with evidence that supports my argument concerning the Gauntlets of Atlas becoming the Gauntlet of Atlas. But I am sure the nature of this mistake eludes you. No worries dearest friend. I am all too happy to explain your failure yet again. In the first appearance, there were two. In all appearances thereafter, there was only one. See? It’s quite simple and I broke it down into something that is easily digestible for you, as you requested.

Oh you still think Artemis is a fifteen tonner without the Gauntlet of Atlas? Okay, sure. I am willing to learn something new. Please provide me with a reference that supports this claim of fact.

No, that is not correct. I said that arguments that were overloaded with scans are lazy arguments and I don’t think that there are many that would disagree with this notion. Aside from yourself, I suppose. But by your own admission, you are not even trying to debate in this thread, so thank you for proving me correct yet again.

Okay, I am willing to accept that Artemis is wearing the Gauntlet of Atlas, assuming you can provide with a statement or scan that states this. I’ll wait for you to repost the same scans that do nothing for your argument, of course. But I am happy to watch you be a hamster in a wheel, as they say.

Long-winded I may be. This is true. But I find the discussion to be the better part of an argument, so why would I only commit to it as little as you have?

What do you mean by disrespect? I don’t believe I have disrespected you at all. I might have held little regard for your arguments, this is true, but I don’t believe that your self-worth is measured by how people see your arguments. Am I incorrect in this assumption? I had no idea you were so delicate. If you need me to, I can address you as I would a flower.

You have learned martial arts, wrestling, and do well in school, yet you debate like a child. I was offering to teach you none of those things, only how to debate with an air of sophistication, which you lack at the present time.

I have full confidence that if Batman thought he could get Bane to surrender with a mere word, he would have used it.

Oh goodie. You have claimed that Wonder Woman has never withstood a nuclear explosion. How very fortunate I am that you are insisting on such flagrant ignorance.

Oh my mistake then. I do not recall Wonder Woman being present in the explosion in Kingdom Come but if you said it happened, then it must be true.

I honestly do not even know how to respond to your comment that Wonder Woman only does well against Superman because of her magic, not strength. It is rife with such a lack of understanding, that I fear even explaining how it is factually inaccurate would be a waste of time. Instead, I will chuckle to myself at how you take pride in your ignorance and move on to the rest of your argument.

Oh my. You are now employing the logical fallacy of appealing to the masses by posting the quotes of others that share similar opinions to yourself. What a thrill it is to debate with you. It is almost as if you have a checklist of terrible debating strategies and you are going through the list, making sure to check off a new box with every post. Thank you for this opportunity to watch you in action. I certainly hope you are a better martial artist than you are a debater though, else you may have many lost fights on your record.

Much of the rest of your argument is just a sputtering of sentence fragments, so I will skip to the parts where you actually made an attempt at a complete sentence. The part where you said that I made the claim that she was as durable as Superman is a lie. I never made this claim. I said she had Superman-level durability, which is true. I’ll furnish evidence on your next inevitable tilt at the windmill.

I never called you a clown and unless you want to be caught in a lie, I would highly recommend that you show the quote where I called you any names at all. That was not even a description that I had assigned to you at all. It was one that your own comrades had assigned to you.

Yes you did actually say you were not even trying. Are you not making the claim that you are indeed trying to make good arguments? If you are, then I will reevaluate my assumptions of you.

As promised.

Since we seem to have Bat-Troll infestation, maybe we should also stoop to posting non-canon, out-of-context scans?

@saint_sophie: Yes, it is true that a user said that Wonder Woman lacks skill and that is the opportunity I chose to make a contribution to the thread. I do not see how that is criminal however. I am at a loss for words on what evidence you are using to support your assumption that I care at all about the user in question. It seems like he said I had something against him and you readily agreed with him, because the two of you were in direct opposition to me. Also, what relevance does that even have at this point? Your friend hasn’t even posted here in a while, nor does that have anything at all to do with my exchange with you.

Thank you for your ‘two cents’ but honestly, what does that have to do with this discussion? Even if I had some personal issue with the Jayc, and I don’t at all, but assuming I did, how would that even matter?

Perhaps you are projecting, I have not had a single emotional response to this thread other than pleasure. If enjoying debate makes me a fanboy, then I suppose I am deserving of the title.

Why must the worst debaters fall back on a request they know does not exist? The greatest minds of our time have vehemently expressed that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. I would even bet that when they say it, you happily agree with them. However, when I say it, you cross your arms, turn you head, and pout that it isn’t possible for Wonder Woman to be at all skilled because she doesn’t have the feats you like. Since you seem to have failed to read my argument, I will simply repost it instead of going through the trouble of repeating myself. I have read your every word, I would appreciate it if you at least did the same, since you have made it abundantly clear you wanted to debate with me.

I was unaware that being a fan of a character devalued credibility of an argument, Sophie. It doesn’t nor should it. You might be confusing fan with fanboy and if there is any qualifier for the title of a fanboy, I would surely not fit within that category. For you see, a fanboy is so impassioned by their love of their character that they refuse to listen to logic or reason. Can you honestly say that I am not employing logic and reason to an exhausting degree in this thread? A fan I may be but this fan has not only held his own in this thread, but has crushed any and all competition. In style, I might add.

I am not sure what you mean by ‘settled down’ but the issue has not been settled, if that is what you meant to say. I am confused though, why you felt the need to say that Wonder Woman is not the best fighter, when that was never in question at all, certainly not by me at least. You also referenced a particular scene in comics that had not been referenced by me. So if you are going to refer to me in your argument in a subtly negative way, I would appreciate it if you would at least address the arguments that you took issue with. Otherwise I could dismiss you as another strawman maker.

Once again and for what I have counted to be the fifth time that I have had to say this: the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Please don’t take my word for it at all. I would not expect you to at this point, because you have already made it clear that anyone that takes up a position for Wonder Woman is automatically someone not worth listening to. But please, take it upon yourself to at least research the logical fallacy that is an argument from ignorance. That is literally the form of argument that you are trying to employ here. Do you really want to be associated with logical fallacies as the foundation of your arguments? It boggles the mind that anyone with access to the internet would seriously use one of the worst kinds of logical fallacies. I plead to your logical mind, don’t use the form of argument that immediately nullifies any credibility you might have. So far, you have been the most reasonable person I have had to combat here, your opinion of me notwithstanding.

You are correct in saying that Wonder Woman’s martial arts feats are finite but you are wrong to assume that we cannot use what we do have. We do have Wonder Woman displaying martial prowess on many occasions. Training Black Canary and sparring with Batman to name a few. While she obviously had to restrain herself to a large degree, it is clear that she has considerable fighting ability, else Batman would not bother sparring with her at all. Why would Batman be interested in sparring with someone that is so beneath him in fighting ability? That makes no sense. It assumes that Batman is wasteful of his time and energy, which we both know is definitely not true. No, Batman considered her fighting ability to be worth his time. That alone does not say that she is among the best but it certainly gives her a higher standing than some have given her credit for, that much is at least true.

Furthermore, her other showings where she used her skill to beat physically superior foes also needs to lend credibility to her fighting ability in the same way that Batman uses his skill to defeat physically superior villainy. Her many fights with Superman, win or lose, were all extended in length because of her superior fighting ability. Superman does indeed have martial prowess as well. He is one of the best Kryptonian martial artists, if I recall correctly. While he doesn’t use it often, he has actually put it to use. That alone, much like what was said before, is not a significant to measure her fighting ability, but there is more.

Her fight with Power Girl was also a showing of skill against a physically superior foe. The difference between Power Girl and Wonder Woman in physical stats is likely about as large as the difference in stats between Batman and Bane. Yet Wonder Woman was able to defeat Power Girl with relative ease once she decided to stop fighting like a typical brick and start fighting like an Amazon. You see, she has the fighting ability you desire to see but by her own admission, her powers allow her to utilize only a small portion of it to defeat her enemies. When she has needed the full scope of her skill, it has often paid off for her.

The training of Black Canary though, I believe is significant because Black Canary is a respected fighter in her own right, am I not correct in this?

Then of course, there is the Amazons that have fought Batman that lend even more evidence to her fighting ability. Now, I don’t know if I would say that Amazon fodder is superior to Batman in technical fighting ability. 3,000 years of training happens to matter little to those on debating forums. It means little for Thor, so we can assume that it means little for the Amazons, as far as debaters are concerned. However, several of them have gotten the upper hand and even defeated Batman. Some would say that they are physically superior to humans and therefore dismiss it but I say why? How much are they superior to a character like Batman? A character that is clearly superhuman by any real human standards in his own right. What feats do Amazons have that put them physically so far above Batman that he cannot possibly hope to outcompete them? What physical stats do they have that make up for what many assume is a pathetic measure of fighting ability? They would have to be considerably higher than Deathstroke, in my opinion and to be frank, there is nothing that the Amazons have done that put them that high in physical ability. They may be higher than peak, maybe. But I don’t believe for a second that it would be enough to defeat Batman unless they also were of exceptional fighting skill. Batman has far too many showings against physically superior foes to call any such argument into question.

Wonder Woman has beaten Batman before but I never once referenced those fights because she did it with powers. So you are arguing another point that I myself had never made, Sophie.

You are significantly underplaying Diana’s skill if you can see all the evidence that I have supplied and still believe that Batman wins one hundred percent of the time. It is almost as if you had not bothered to read a single counter-argument to your own personal beliefs. Why even debate at all if all you are capable of is reading the opinions of those that you already agree with? Once again, you have fallen into the fallacy of conformational bias.

I’m sorry but you really think that an opponent with lackluster skill is capable of getting a ‘lucky punch’ against one such as Batman? Especially after he already had readily engaged in a fight, removing any hopes of calling it a surprise? If that is true for the case of Artemis, it says some very embarrassing things about Batman. Are you trying so hard to lowball Artemis’ feat, that you are willing to shame Batman in the process? Because that is exactly what you have managed to do with that silly post. Batman does not fall prey to ‘lucky shots’ in a fight that he is ready for, that he is expecting. That is an absurd claim and most definitely a desperate one.

Yet again, it is not ABC logic. I don’t believe that you know what ABC logic is, as a matter of a fact. ABC logic would be to say that because Wonder Woman has beaten one character that has beaten another character, that Wonder Woman can also beat said third character but that is not what I am saying at all. The argument against ABC logic factors in many things, such as powers, weaknesses, strengths, morals, physical vulnerabilities, etc. If I was saying that Artemis could use her magical abilities to defeat someone and therefore, Wonder Woman can defeat them as well, that would be the fallacy of ABC logic. I am not saying that at all. I am using Artemis as a measuring stick only. I am saying that Artemis has beaten Batman and has shown the skill to be able to do so in fair combat. She has the martial ability to not only meet him in the field on even ground, but to defeat him. That is the measure of her skill. Wonder Woman is confirmed to be significantly superior to Artemis in martial ability. It is not even in question among anyone that has read the issues. If Artemis is the measuring stick and has shown the ability to beat Batman without trickery of powers, then it only makes logical sense to say that barring morals (which I admit Batman could exploit), Wonder Woman could also beat Batman in a strictly hand to hand battle.

Do you see now? I don’t know what your strategy is but as you may be finally able to see, you will not be outlasting me in this debate. If you want to beat me, it will not be from refusal to give up. No, to beat me, you need to start using a logical mind.

I do feel as though it is a waste of time to debate with you if you are not at least willing to address all of my argument. So I have included it once again, in the hopes that you will read and reply, just as I have with you.

I have been on this site since its creation. I know that evidence helps with arguments. However, only a fool would say that scans are a replacement for a well-constructed argument. If you prefer a scan dump of pictures that don’t even have any relevancy to the debate, then please, have fun in the sandbox of debating novices. I would not stop you from doing what you enjoy.

The amusing thing about your post is that you imply that I have posted any kind of fan fiction when I have posted nothing but the facts, supported by logic and reason. Oh how I wish you were capable of such things. You seem so very close to self-awareness.

I already explained to you how we can estimate Wonder Woman’s skill. I find it odd that you would outright ignore that portion of my post. Not to fear, I suspect you need to read something twice to ensure that you have absorbed everything. For this reason, I have included my previous post towards you in this new post. Have at thee!

I’m sorry but beating someone without skill is not evidence that someone lacks skill. That is a silly opinion.

"Even if I had some personal issue with the Jayc, and I don’t at all" Suuuurreeee you don't. Saying that there is nothing wonder woman can do to change my mind about her skill level doesn't contribute to the thread, and is also false.

I did not say she has no skill, simply that she's not the best martial artist.

Now, I do not know much about Artemis and I haven't read all of the posts in your arguments with Saint_Sohpie and Username12345, but it seems like that is the main basis of your argument. It is a fair point that artmeis may not have enough feats to say she is above the level of superhuman that batman can handle (if what you say is true), but she is still superhuman and above batman physically, and that matters. That is an advantage that can even the gap in skill. Wonder woman being better than a superhuman who beat batman is not enough to say she is as good as him, and could beat him in hand to hand. She can most definitely give him a fight but I would count on batman to win 99% of the time. Batman simply has far greater knowledge and a larger number of skills that he's shown over the years. That part of your argument is based on how strong Artemis is it seems to me, and I don't think there's enough feats to qualify artemis enough for her to be used to say wonder woman is that skilled.

Her easily handling power girl and keeping up with superman are great feats. They really are. But as you said they don't measure her fighting ability well enough against batman.

@makhai: ^ forgot to tag you

@makhai: I'm not saying I lost, but I just spent 3 hours posting pictures and then my internet went out so I'm not going to be here for a while. I'm not accepting defeat though.

I'll just leave them here since we are still batwanking:

@outside_85: scans of a super human beating up a human... That doesn't show skill. It isn't batwanking to say that batman is better than her in martial arts when he is. As is lady Shiva. And Richard dragon. And bronze tiger. And many others.

No. He's Erik.

@sodamyat: Really? How do you know?

cause he told us a few pages ago.

@sodamyat: Sorry to ask, but which page and post number? I don't want to read the prolonged back and fourth debate especially given the extra lengthy posts.

I guess that makes sense now.

Page 3 Comment 144. Just for future refrence, to avoid reading a prolonged back and forth, just go into pages and hit Ctrl + F and that will summon the "Find" Prompt. Type in the word youre looking for and it will find all the times that word is typed on that page.

@makhai:

"I am sorry that you have become too lazy to actually read the arguments put against you. How can you possibly be taken seriously as a debater if you are not at least willing to read the opposition?"

I proved that wrong by quoting your arguments.

I have given you the respect of reading your every word, yet you cannot give me the same respect as a debater here? I wish I could say that I am surprised but if this is the kind of debater that you wish to be, I doubt I could ever cause you to be better.

Then prove it by quoting me, not only will it prove your non existent respect, it will help me keep track of our aurguments

You seem to relish in your inferiority as a debater, which honestly breaks my heart because it is becomingly increasingly clear that you are only here to troll,

Coming from you, you have provided 2 pictures that have nothing to do with skill and said you auto win because you are a better typer

as you have little to offer this debate other than Wikipedia quotes and a library of pictures that are not relevant to this thread.

1) proving Batman is more skilled than Wonder woman is the entire point of this

2) You said Batman Endgame is non canon which is completely inacurate

For this, I regret to inform you that I am now going to start flagging your posts.

I never used sexism as an excuse for Wonder Woman’s ability but the evidence seems to indicate that sexism is playing a role in your opinion here.

Lady Shiva, Cassandra Cain, Onyx, Artemis all more SKILLED then her all females. Not to mention @saint_sophie is a female and she thinks Batman is more skilled than Wonder Woman

You are not growing tired of being wrong all the time?

I'm not, that is impossible

That is quite the all right with me, as I never grow tired of being right all the time either. Perhaps we can complement one another in this. You get to continue to be wrong and I get to continue being right on the simplest of things. It is a win-win situation.

You just said Endgame was elseworlds that is 100% incorrect

Comicvine’s Wikipedia is not a factual representation of comics. It is, regretfully, free to users to edit and so long as someone is not deliberately trolling a wiki page, any edit will likely go unnoticed unless the moderator approving or denying the edit is knowledgeable in the character in question. The moderators are only human, after all. They cannot be expected to know everything there is to know about any and all characters. That is a silly expectation.

Then you can become a mod and tell them what to do, with your vast knowledge (sarcasm) you can tell them all about Artemis's inconsistent strength levels

But since you insist on using Wikipedia as your source of information, where is the reference to the issue where Artemis performed such a feat?

Supergirl busting?

Gallery

I will wait for you to come up with this evidence. If you find an issue, I will be able to provide you with a synopsis of the issue in question and if you insist, I will provide you with scans of the feat in question as well.

Superman/ Batman if I'm not mistaken it was an earlier issue

This is well outside my comfort zone to do but I am so very committed to teaching you something about the Amazons, it would only make me too happy to prove you wrong at least once more.

You've proven you lack humor and are rude and ignorant, but you are a good typer

Yes, Artemis was able to defeat Wonder Woman in combat, while sapping Wonder Woman’s powers and abilities up to and including combat prowess. I believe that I already explained this to you, did you already forget? It was only two posts ago that I ran you through a brief summary of the spell that was taking Diana’s physical and mental abilities and transferring them to Artemis. In fact, it was you that had quoted the Wikipedia that referenced this exact occasion. How can you be ignorant to something that you had tried to use in the debate? You puzzle me, friend.

How about here

She won until WW cheated

Why would I not call you friend? You seem eager to converse with me ad infinitum. Who would do such a thing but a friend?

You are my mortal nemesis and saying you are my friend proves you desperateness

Oh no, you are mistaken yet again. Artemis was resurrected after her death, she married one of the princes of Hell and using this marriage, secured the means necessary to resurrect herself.

She was still very much a mortal before and after her resurrection. But it is amazing that you are not even checking the facts for this anymore, just pumping out pictures you think look pretty.

Not exactly, Artemis becoming a resident on the island grants her eternal youth, as it did Wonder Woman

Yes, I understand that you think Wikipedia knows more than DC comics does. But please, furnish the scan from the Bana that says that Circe was able to grant them immortality? No? Oh but you were so good at getting pictures of things that had no relevancy in this thread, I had assumed that you were also capable of providing something useful for a change. It appears that you are only a one-trick pony. How unfortunate.

Once again, I will have provided you with scans that prove Circe is not able to grant immortality or even permanent superhuman stats to any character. She was bound by the Lasso of Truth when she made this admission. It is canon and has never been contradicted since it was established. Unfortunately for you, you are wrong yet again. I am sorry for you, sir. But I can promise you that if you stopped using a Wikipedia as your source, you might not look like such a terrible debater.

Artemis moving to paradise island made her immortal which was done by Circe, Wikiapidia isn't always wrong

You posted many scans, once again I admit that this is true. However, not a single scan you used mattered here. So you might as well have not posted it at all. It was wasted space, much like your entire debating strategy.

But they do matter 1 You haven't explained why 2 that's called a fallacy fallacy. That just proves you are a wanna be scholar.

Calling Wonder Woman ‘Wonder Wimp’ only reinforces my factual claim that her potential superiority makes you extremely uncomfortable.

How? Are you a psycologist? Did I stutter? Do I have proof that IMO Batman is better?

Those darn women, am I right? They belong in the kitchen and nowhere else.

I am sorry but that is incorrect. I did not say that you did indeed lack intellect. I said that your post lacked intellect. It is not a justified sentence to flag but if you are offended, please feel free to flag my posts. It would give me enormous amounts of pleasure to have a moderator tell you that you are wrong as well.

You just threatened to tell on me and I don't have any karma or a warning so...

A poop character, you say? Well I did not think your debating strategy could become more juvenile but I was mistaken. Shame on me then, for underestimating your willingness to lower yourself. I should have known that class is one of the things you would shirk when defeated in a debate.

I don't like swearing and crap doesn't roll off the tongue but let me rephrase that she can be a crap character because she kills people and is a third wave feminist

Post Crisis Wonder Woman does indeed have eternal youth but I am unsure on what that has to do with this debate or her quality as a character. I had no idea that immortality automatically qualified a character to be defined as a ‘poop character’. It seems that your standards are quite low.

It means she can't be the most skilled because she is a meta human, a power character by design, not meant to fight the likes of Batman if she was in a human state

You want me to post scans of her not doing something? That is an amusing demand, to say the least. Come now, friend. You take the fun out of beating you when you seem to enjoy being impossible to respect.

Prove Wonder Woman is the best, is what I want, you've done nothing to sway anyone's opinion of that and look like a jerk

No, I will say that the scans of Artemis you have repeatedly posted are in fact, fine scans. But they don’t help you, they help me. You said that Artemis is superhuman.

I proved that to be a lie.

You said that she wore the Gauntlet of Atlas, I again proved that to be a lie.

Fair enough but in Loebs world she is super human

You said that Batman beat her in hand to hand, I again proved that to be a lie.

How do the scans of Batman fighting and losing to Artemis or incapacitating Artemis altogether to avoid having to fight her help your argument? They don’t. All they do is furnish me with the evidence that I need to make my case against you. So thank you for making my job all the easier.

I actually did not have scans of Artemis from Batman: Confidentiality. So you have provided me with a boon for all future debates concerning Artemis. I honestly thank you, no sarcasm intended there.

It was Batman/ Superman #9 and i already proved she was super human

The scan of Batman knocking Wonder Woman out with a kick is clearly poor writing, as Wonder Woman has stats that literally make such a feat impossible and in fact, are proven to be impossible by the scan you put just three scans beneath it. I find it hilarious that I barely even need to try to beat you. You have taken it upon yourself to beat you. Thank you for that.

No. Batman is 250 pounds of pure muscle and vengeance and he is drop kicking her ovaries

The second scan is from New 52 and because it is an Elseworld,

ENDGAME IS 100% CANON

has no bearing in a conversation about Post Crisis Wonder Woman. But even if you want to talk about New 52 Wonder Woman, that feat would still be invalid due to the fact that it is not hand to hand. It is Batman in a robotic suit of undisclosed power and speed. It is one of your more irrelevant scans.

She is superstrong and he was injured before hand, not to mention he had to fight the entire league, he was just evening the odds

Your third scan is also from an Elseworld. Red Son, to be exact. It has no bearing here either and the nature of Batman’s victory over Wonder Woman here was also not one of hand to hand. There goes yet another one of your scans.

Bruises on her face in a latter scene imply batman used fisticuffs, as did Batmans lack of resources due to it being a Communist regime

The fourth scan I already explained. It was a sparring match that had Wonder Woman flipped once, where she explains how the first scan is impossible. It should also be noted that Wonder Woman defeated Batman immediately after that scan. With ease, I might add.

It proves she need her powers to beat him how is that not clear?

The fifth scan I am having a hard time remembering but I believe that it was a dream. Unless you have the reference for the issue? I would be more than happy to provide context for this scan if you only would tell me the issue. Odds are that I have it, since it tingles the back of my memory.

Not a dream

And the sixth scan shows that Wonder Woman was not operating under her own faculties. So I can’t imagine how that would have any relevance in a thread about Wonder Woman when it technically wasn’t even Wonder Woman at all. That one is just icing on the cake for me, wasn’t it? Do you like making it ridiculously easy to defeat your arguments?

They won't just fight for no reason, possession is the only time heroes go all out on each other. When was it stated she wasn't operating at full power?

Why spend all your time to just be made a mockery of? Are you a masochist? Legitimate question sir, no sarcasm intended.

1)

2) No gross and completely off topic

3) I'm humiliating you, I'm the one with feats proving my arguments

There is no suite in my arguments. If there were, I would spend all my time there, getting lavish massages and taking mud baths and body wraps.

I find your sarcasm unamusing

"f you meant suit my arguments, well that is also a lie. For you see, I have read and responded to your every word. Very carefully, out of respect for you as a debater. Alas, I find it regretful that you are unwilling to extend the same courtesy."

1) Then prove it by quoting me

2) I'm reading every word, one can tell because I'm quoting you.

I already posted a scan, friend. I am going to provide you with the very scan you desire, at the bottom of this page.

Of Wonder Woman being the most skilled h2h fighter with out power? I don't think so

"I cannot post scans of something that never happened. Circe never gave them immortality, so I obviously cannot post scans proving that."

Prove she can't though. When does it say she can't give them immortality if they take over themyscara

All I can do is explain who she is as a character and what she can do. Whether or not you choose to believe the facts I have given you is your prerogative. Which is unfortunate because, as you have already proven, learning is beyond your ability.

But I proved I was able to learn, I do well in school likeI said.

"Okay, so you believe that the Bana would accept that Circe had granted them immortality just because she says she did? Even when they had already expressed that they did not trust her way back in Wonder Woman volume one? I find that hard to believe? The Bana were the most cunning and dangerous of all the mercenaries on Earth at the time, yet you find it at all believable that they would just march into battle for someone that claimed she had made them immortal? Are you even reading the words you are putting to you post, sir?"

1) The Bana didn't appear until Vol 2 #29

2) That was the entire point of War of the Gods

"Yes, the Bana-Migdhall are in fact a splinter group of the Themyscira Amazons. As I said before however, they had split before the Amazons had gone to the island. Yes, they left after the destruction of their city state. But this was still just before the Amazons were taken to the mythical island, I’m afraid."

Then Artamis is still half human half Amazon making her a... META HUMAN .

"What proof are you asking for? Do you want proof that the island grants immortality? That’s easy enough and it requires no scans at all. For you see, Hippolyta, Wonder Woman’s own mother, is the very same Amazon that Heracles captured and raped 3,000 years ago. What more do you need? Zeus told them that so long as they lived on the island, they would live forever."

Proof Wonder Woman is the most skilled fighter of all time in the DCU the entire point of this debate

"Yes, the Amazons in Amazons Attack had more than just foot soldiers. I am unsure on how that matters here though."

Because a group of meta humans made war against humans that's no fair. How do you not understand that?

"How is her sparring with Supergirl evidence that Artemis is enhanced? Even assuming she was enhanced, she would require Supergirl-level stats to engage Supergirl on even footing, which is a ridiculous claim. Sparring with Supergirl is no more evidence that she is enhanced in any way than Batman sparring with Wonder Woman is. That is probably the silliest thing you have said in this entire thread. It is self-defeating, which seems to be your debating axiom."

That's crazy, even if Supergirl was going easy on her she would need enhanced strength to knock her down

"Again no. I am sorry to inform you of this but telling you that you are posting from a position of ignorance is not a post that is justified in flagging. But again, feel free to do so."

"I don’t think you understand what cowardice behavior actually is. You may note that none of the Amazons engaged Batman, save for one."

A meta human fought an "ordinary" man and lost because that man lodged a needle into her throat

"An argument for cowardice could be made if one of the Amazons had engaged Batman from behind, after he had started to fight Artemis but this never happened. So I am going to have to disagree with you there as well. My-my, there is so very little of your argument that is not crumbling under its own buffoonery. Just to be clear, I am not saying you are a buffoon, I only am saying that your argument is and it seems decidedly deliberate."

Don't forget who won that fight

"Oh please, provide me with these scans, quotes, and other ‘proof’ that I have bias information and… a dictionary?"

You said

"I admit, there is some arrogance when it comes to Wonder Woman. But that only is arrogance that comes from nearly a decade on this forum, learning everything that there is to know about Wonder Woman and her proverbial family. Unfortunately for you, the only person that currently lacks understanding in this thread is you, sir. I am trying to teach you, but it is quite difficult to teach someone that closes their minds to any opinion that they find uncomfortable."

Yes, Batman managed to avoid being killed. He still lost the hand to hand exchange, which is being discussed here. No one questions Batman’s ability to use gadgets, when necessary.

I am all too happy to prove that the scans are irrelevant. In fact, I already did a few paragraph above this sentence. You are very welcome.

"Dictionary boy is not really an insult to me, I hope you know."

"Mocking someone for being your intellectual superior is quite the insecure tactic, my friend."

How are you my intellectual superior you don't even know me? Unless you're a pedophile and like stacking highschollers

"Saying that you have been lazy and that you make novice debating mistakes is also not against the rules. I have taken great lengths to explain the reasoning behind my opinion of you. There is not a single soul that believes I have failed to prove how terrible of a debater you are, and there has been quite a few eyes that have fallen on this discussion, I assure you."

You can't make blanket statements like that there's always some one who disagrees with you, no matter how small the issue.

"So because Artemis said ‘We’ instead of ‘I’, the other Amazons somehow influenced Batman’s defeat? That is curious. Where is the scans of the other Amazons contributing in any meaningful way to Batman’s defeat? Are you leaving scans out? Have you forgotten a page? It seems that way."

Don't forget who won that fight. Also if PIS does exists (it doesn't) then that scene is PIS because of his battles with the Talons

"I fail to see how it matters that Artemis was rendered unconscious by the use of a tranquilizer dart. What does that have to do with hand to hand combat?"

Couldn't Batman lodge a poison dart in Wonder Woman's neck

"Furthermore, you post a scan of Batman evading a punch from Artemis, yet you want me to believe that Batman is slower than Artemis due to her superhuman stats?"

Doesn't matter, Batman dodges Super humans all the time

"Will you please make up your mind on what position you want to take in this regard? Do you want to say that Artemis is superhuman or not?"

Is

"If she is superhuman, Batman would be unable to evade her strike. If she is merely peak human, he can but then every single one of your posts is rendered invalid. I mean, I have already rendered them invalid but this time, you would be forced to admit that they are invalid."

If Batman can't dodge metas I guess he should be dead because half his rouges are meta humans

"That is not a strawman at all. You literally said that the presence of the other Amazons cause Batman to be defeated, yet there was no actions that I saw where the Amazons contributed to his defeat."

Yes they did, he didn't have time to show off his superior martial arts, he was in a similar situation with the assassins Talons and he escaped due to there outdated fighting style. Based off Deathstroke vs Wonder Woman encounters Amazons have very old tactics similar to Amazons.

"What else could there be but some mental factor that was not stated? This is your own argument, not a strawman. If you feel that it is not your argument, you may want to make your arguments more clear."

Yes, he didn't have time to fight the rest of them and in the Batman/ Superman universe Jeff Loeb created clearly shows Artemis is a superhuman

"Artemis is not superior to Wonder Woman, I regret to inform you. If she was in fact, Wonder Woman’s superior, then Hippolyta would not have needed to resort to cheating to give Artemis a victory in the competition for the Wonder Woman title. On the island at the time, Wonder Woman was powerless. If she was indeed the inferior fighter, she would have lost by her own lack of ability. But no, Hippolyta had to give Artemis Wonder Woman’s own skills to get her to win."

"I find it debatable that Bane is superior to Wonder Woman in fighting skill. I don’t believe there is any evidence to support this."

Bane has feats off venom that proves he is one of the most skilled fighters and he doesn't need powers to get by

"No no, I am sorry to inform you that yet again, saying that you are refusing to have an intellectual debate is not grounds to flag a post."

Making fun of some one over the internet is called trolling, which is exactly what you did, and even if you don't get in trouble it's kind of rude and slows the debate to a halt for no reason other than your wounded pride.

"Crying and making a fuss are not the same thing, I am afraid. I doubt you have shed any tears here."

Good because I didn't.

"I think if you actually had any respect for yourself or the damage you are doing to Batman’s reputation, you might shed at least one tear though."

"Oh my, you have called me several names. A liar and a fool, to be exact. I made sure to screen shot it as well. I am going to ask that you no longer call anyone any names, else I will be forced to bring a moderator into this thread. Name-calling is against the rules of the forums. Please restrain yourself, my friend. Losing a debate is hard, I imagine. But you will need to keep from calling people names unless you want to get into trouble."

I didn't call you that I called your posts that ;)

"I’m sorry but no. The scans you have provided have done no such thing. In fact, I would say the very last thing they have accomplished in this thread is proving that she isn’t the best fighter there is."

Then prove she is the best fighter, no powers battles against some one of Shiva's or Karate Kids caliber

"There probably is someone in this world that knows more about Wonder Woman than me. I have never heard of such a person but I am sure they exist. It’s a shame they don’t frequent this website, however. So the argument that someone knows more than me about Wonder Woman is practically worthless here, much like all your posts."

That is arrogance incarnate, @saint_sophie appears to have more information in her pinkie than you do in your whole body.

"What do you mean by ‘cry me a river’? That does not make much sense in the context in which you have used it, as it applies to my quoted except. I don’t think that means what you think it means, friend."

Crying is something you do when your sad, me is referring to I, and a river is a figure of speech, people don't really cry rivers.

"Oh I am so sorry. But Batman did not knock Wonder Woman across the floor in any of the scans you had posted. Would you care to provide a reference to the fight you are referring to? I am all too happy to look up the feat in question."

"No, restraining herself does not actually prove that she needs powers to beat a character. It only says that she has powers. That was actually one of your better attempts but it still falls wonderfully short of decent."

The point of this is to prove she is the most skilled. If she only defeats people with her power she is incomparable to Batmans use of skill. Lets say she is as skilled as Batman though (she is not). Can she beat Batman one million or out skill Karate Kid?

"You don’t need to post half a comic to prove your point but it would be nice if you posted at least one scan that was relevant to the thread in question. Surely that is not outside of your scope of ability, now is it? Okay, let’s assume that we can generalize and say ‘feats are feats’. Care to give the context of these feats?"

Canon Battles

Batman proves he is more skilled than wonder Woman until she uses her powers to bravely run away

Batman "mind altered" beats up Wonder Woman until he saves them both after snapping out of it

Batman Confidential

Non Canon

off camera Batman beats Wonder Woman in Red Sun. Batman has little to no gear due to it being Communist Russia and the bruises on her face imply he defeated her in hand to hand

"I seem to be finding you to be a person that is easily offended. Saying that you lack knowledge on a character is not an offense that is capable of being flagged. If that is something that is hurting your feelings, I would recommend that you take a break from this debate, cool down, and return after you have regained control of your emotions. This thread will not be going anywhere, I promise you. I will gladly respond to any of your future attempts at what you think is debating. Just please, regain control of yourself."

"Yes, you did indeed provide me with evidence that supports my argument concerning the Gauntlets of Atlas becoming the Gauntlet of Atlas. But I am sure the nature of this mistake eludes you. No worries dearest friend. I am all too happy to explain your failure yet again. In the first appearance, there were two. In all appearances thereafter, there was only one. See? It’s quite simple and I broke it down into something that is easily digestible for you, as you requested."

Oh really how about here? Looks like 2 to me.

"Oh you still think Artemis is a fifteen tonner without the Gauntlet of Atlas? Okay, sure. I am willing to learn something new. Please provide me with a reference that supports this claim of fact."

"No, that is not correct. I said that arguments that were overloaded with scans are lazy arguments and I don’t think that there are many that would disagree with this notion. Aside from yourself, I suppose. But by your own admission, you are not even trying to debate in this thread, so thank you for proving me correct yet again."

What do scans have? Feats. What do feats do? Prove your argument.

I never said that, and IF I did it's because you can't prove squat to me. BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO FEATS THAT PROVE WONDER WOMAN IS THE MOST SKILLED PERSON IN THE DCU.

"Okay, I am willing to accept that Artemis is wearing the Gauntlet of Atlas, assuming you can provide with a statement or scan that states this. I’ll wait for you to repost the same scans that do nothing for your argument, of course. But I am happy to watch you be a hamster in a wheel, as they say."

Her standard gear consists of black gloves not gold braclets.

"Long-winded I may be. This is true. But I find the discussion to be the better part of an argument, so why would I only commit to it as little as you have?"

Because I find feats and facts more important, and find it more interesting to see feats than have a conversation with Carl Azuz.

"What do you mean by disrespect? I don’t believe I have disrespected you at all. I might have held little regard for your arguments, this is true, but I don’t believe that your self-worth is measured by how people see your arguments. Am I incorrect in this assumption? I had no idea you were so delicate. If you need me to, I can address you as I would a flower."

Then how is this not disrespectful ^ and you flipped out at me for calling your arguments foolish.

"I had no idea you were so delicate"

"You have learned martial arts, wrestling, and do well in school, yet you debate like a child. I was offering to teach you none of those things, only how to debate with an air of sophistication, which you lack at the present time."

It's comics not politics calm down.

"I have full confidence that if Batman thought he could get Bane to surrender with a mere word, he would have used it."

You're missing the point League of one is fine because he fought until he was out cold, Hjksyusbefuyb is not because Batman doesn't beg.\, as proof by his encounter with Bane in Knightfall

"Oh goodie. You have claimed that Wonder Woman has never withstood a nuclear explosion. How very fortunate I am that you are insisting on such flagrant ignorance."

Depending on the continuity Wonder Woman survived missiles, but not of the nuclear variety. Her power level goes up and down depending on the continuity/ writer.

"Oh my mistake then. I do not recall Wonder Woman being present in the explosion in Kingdom Come but if you said it happened, then it must be true."

Every one was, it's what killed most the heroes.

"I honestly do not even know how to respond to your comment that Wonder Woman only does well against Superman because of her magic, not strength. It is rife with such a lack of understanding, that I fear even explaining how it is factually inaccurate would be a waste of time. Instead, I will chuckle to myself at how you take pride in your ignorance and move on to the rest of your argument."

Even if it wasn't her magic, Superman is not a skill based enemy, he is strength based. But it is her magic that causes her to do well, magical energies cause the atmospherical force field that makes Superman not feel pain to vanish, because it's not "natural"

"Oh my. You are now employing the logical fallacy of appealing to the masses by posting the quotes of others that share similar opinions to yourself. What a thrill it is to debate with you. It is almost as if you have a checklist of terrible debating strategies and you are going through the list, making sure to check off a new box with every post. Thank you for this opportunity to watch you in action."

1) That is a fallacy fallacy, you didn't prove it was true, and it doesn't help your argument 2) The first quote was mine proving you didn't read. 3) I was just telling you my opinion of PIS.

"I certainly hope you are a better martial artist than you are a debater though, else you may have many lost fights on your record."

I appreciate the concern. Of the few street fights I was in I won all but one. I tend to not want to fight people, though, physically.

"Much of the rest of your argument is just a sputtering of sentence fragments, so I will skip to the parts where you actually made an attempt at a complete sentence. The part where you said that I made the claim that she was as durable as Superman is a lie. I never made this claim. I said she had Superman-level durability, which is true. I’ll furnish evidence on your next inevitable tilt at the windmill."

1) They call it lists, it saves people time.

2) She never was as powerful as Superman, never even as close

"I never called you a clown and unless you want to be caught in a lie, I would highly recommend that you show the quote where I called you any names at all. That was not even a description that I had assigned to you at all. It was one that your own comrades had assigned to you."

Can I see the quote?

"the strength of your knowledge on Batman is as shallow as a kiddy pool."

"I admit, there is some arrogance when it comes to Wonder Woman. But that only is arrogance that comes from nearly a decade on this forum, learning everything that there is to know about Wonder Woman and her proverbial family. Unfortunately for you, the only person that currently lacks understanding in this thread is you, sir. I am trying to teach you, but it is quite difficult to teach someone that closes their minds to any opinion that they find uncomfortable."

"Suggesting that you may be insecure is not an insult. Or at least, it was not meant to be. I had no idea that you defined your self-worth by how people online see you. This must be the case if someone thinking that you are insecure makes you feel attacked."

I didn't know you are a sociologist.

All of these are insults hidden in a purple robe, calling me insecure, mocking me because I prefer a character more, calling me sexist earlier because Batman COULD beat Wonder Woman, making fun of @jayc1324, and calling your cronies on me earlier.

"Yes you did actually say you were not even trying. Are you not making the claim that you are indeed trying to make good arguments? If you are, then I will reevaluate my assumptions of you."

I'm making better arguments than you.

"As promised."

You misunderstand Artemis was teloported to Themyiscara by Circe, because Artemis made it her home she gained immortality. That's why they wanted to go there with Circe in the first place.

I'm surprised you made me get this serious. There are three ways to debate; logos, meaning using logic, pathos, meaning using ones trust of the author to prove your point, and ethos, using emotional appeal to prove your point. I use logos by proving my points via scans, and ethos using, IMO, comedy via memes to verbally defeat you. Whilst you use the weakest arguments, pathos, you expect us “crazy Bat fans” to trust you with word of mouth; quite frankly it’s because of your lack of understanding of the thesis of my entire point, Wonder Woman is not the most skilled. Not only do you have no proof, you used twice as many fallacies as me. You used the fallacy fallacy, which is saying I’m wrong just because I used a fallacy, you used the Strawman fallacy, when you misquoted me multiple times and misrepresented me a number of times, and you used the Genetic fallacy, which is deny my points because I’m a “crazy Bat fan”. “Typos, sentence fragments, and immaturity" aren't arguments. You proved to me you know nothing when you said Batman Endgame and Batman Confidential #53 is non canon. You proved your disrespect by calling me a clown and insulting @jayc1324. Your ineptitude to prove your point, proves you hide your poor debating skill with fancy terms. Honestly you are one of the most hypocritical and disrespectful people I've seen on my time in the vine. Your arrogance is your undoing, you aren't the most knowledgeable wonder Woman fan of all time, especially if you think she is the most skilled martial artists of all time, @saint_sophie clearly is the most knowledgeable Wonder than Wonder Woman. Batman in all the canon, serious, h2h encounters, with no assistance from power armor, has a record of 3-1 and that’s counting League of One which IDK if it’s canon or not. Your ineptitude to post SKILL based feats from Wonder Woman proves what little you add to the conversation. The idea that Wonder Woman is any where near as skilled as Lady Shiva, Batman one million, Batman, Karate Kid, David Cain, Cassandra Cain, Deathstroke, Bronze Tiger, Richard Dragon, Constantine Drakon, Bane, Catman, ect, is crazy, and there is a lack of feats from her to prove it. Is this the victory you were hoping for?

Gallery

@saint_sophie For the record, with Wonder Woman I LOVE most of the animated incarnations. My hatred of characters varies from day to day, sometimes I hate spiderman, sometimes I hate Damian Wayne. It's mostly because people say crazy things. So I know Wonder Woman is an adept fighter, she's just not even close to the best.

Depending on if this quote was directed towards me

"Yes, it is true that a user said that Wonder Woman lacks skill and that is the opportunity I chose to make a contribution to the thread. I do not see how that is criminal however. I am at a loss for words on what evidence you are using to support your assumption that I care at all about the user in question. It seems like he said I had something against him and you readily agreed with him, because the two of you were in direct opposition to me. Also, what relevance does that even have at this point? Your friend hasn’t even posted here in a while, nor does that have anything at all to do with my exchange with you."

@sodamyat: "That Makhai user is a girl?"

I was joking.

Neither does showing out of context, PIS-riddled and non-canon scans prove anything.

She is a very skilled fighter, but she isn't the best fighter. There are a lot of better fighters.

@outside_85: too bad no ones done that. Are you really questioning Batman's skill? A man whks confirmed 127 mastered martial arts? Equal to lady Shiva, arguably the best in the entire world? Stalemated Richard dragon and bronze tiger? Knows over 400 ways to KO someone? Knows death touches only a few other people in the world know, and can modify it to make it non lethal? Diana simply doesn't have that skill level.

I saw a whole line of them in this thread. The ones I posted where of the same sort.

@agent41: I apologies for my irregular posting schedule. I've been dealing with some stuff that left me mentally tired, I'll post later ASAP

@agent41, I would argue with @username12345... but it seems like an ungodly waste of time.

Wonder Woman is a powerhouse just like Superman or Gladiator.

Thinking otherwise just means you haven't read many of her comics... or are being willfully ignorant of her respect thread.

Regardless, nice seeing you again Agent41!