Tag team CaV: Wyldsong and TRV vs TNBB and Speedster

@wyldsong: take your time. I know how work feels bro :) (not really im 13 but you get the point XD)

@speedster101: still haven't edited in the new rule on the scarab brother

Or my username 0_0

@the_red_viper: Honestly, that is not my kind of music, but I am good with that for a team song=)

@thenewbluebeetle007@speedster101:

Disclaimer:

The Valiant version of Dr Solar is probably one of the most misunderstood characters on these forums. I have seen feats taken out of context, feats from different versions/companies mixed in, and so on. Valiant Solar is not a multiversal, universe busting powerhouse. By the time you see some of his best feats here, hopefully a better picture will be painted of the Man of the Atom. I don't think I have ever once had to start a post trying to downplay my choice in characters, but having witnessed first hand the rampant misinformation that has been running the forums about Valiant Solar, I felt the need to get this out there, and open with this.

The cause of such misinformation is basically people mixing and matching various versions of Solar, and putting too much belief in that KMC respect thread, which is one of the worst offenders on the net today, as it blatantly misrepresents and mislabels feats, and mixes many versions of Solar under one banner. Under the Valiant banner there are at least 5 different versions of Solar (normal, Gold Key, Destroyer, Traveler, Deathmate). Then Acclaim bought out Valiant, and that brought us another 5 versions (I am including one version from the unfinished Unity 2000 in this count).

So, I will end this diatribe by stating that I am working on a write up to clear that all up, but that will be it's own post in another forum altogether. To keep versions clear here, I will be utilizing Solar from his original Valiant run (anything prior to Birthquake and excluding the horrendous Deathmate) and the Dark Horse run.

Solar, Man of the Atom:

Good old Phil. Depending on the version this is either Phil Seleski or Phil Solar, but since most of my feats are Valiant based, we will stick with calling him Seleski, and will expand upon that particular background (both are similar enough). Phil was a scientist who grew up reading the Gold Key Solar comics:

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And was inspired by them. As an adult, he creates a machine that for all intents and purposes grants his subconscious desires, and long story short, he becomes Solar. It takes a series of misadventures for him to fully become the Solar readers know and love, such as splitting off into 2 beings (Seleski and a Gold Key inspired Solar), and then all combining back together with a version of Seleski from the past...but eventually things get straightened out, and his adventures kick into high gear.

Nuclear Fission (Breaking Down the Atom):

I am going to have to give the short and sweet version of his power list here, as Solar can honestly do a lot=)

Flight -

Solar is capable of atmospheric and space flight:

Speed -

He has been shown to be able to amp his combat speed, and can achieve travel speeds up to lightspeed:

Strength -

Phil can also amp his strength. While the limits have never really be shown nor tested (though he seems to cap out around X-O armor level), he has been shown supporting collapsing roofs to fighting hand to hand with super-strong aliens:

Gallery

Durability -

Seleski has been shown as surviving in the deep dark depths of the ocean and the colds of outer space without issue, and has tanked all manner of physical attacks from various powerhouses and high tech weaponry:

Healing/Regeneration -

Solar has also displayed the ability to heal/reform himself from various attacks, and can heal others:

Technopathy -

He can interface with, talk to, and manipulate a variety of technological devices and computers:

Teleportation -

Solar can travel through radio waves, cell phone signals, and so on, and can teleport:

Gallery

Energy Projection/Absorption/Manipulation -

Solar can also fire off blasts of energy, can absorb energy, and can pretty much manipulate it for a variety of effects (it should be noted that he can and has been affected/hurt by various energy attacks though):

To be clear though, he can't just cause people and such to explode=P

Everything Solar does is basically linked back to his energy control. You see, in Solar's words, everything is energy:

Which is the blanket description for how his powers work, and just why it is he can do what he does. Honestly, I can't really even keep going on with the list, because there is too much for an intro post, so I will bring up the rest as needed. Needless to say, reality warping and universe busting does not number among his list of abilities=)

The Basic Plan:

So, I don't really know enough about Blue Beetle to lay out a great strategy just yet. Warriors in sentient alien armors with high tech weaponry though is honestly nothing new to Solar:

Phil is a scientist first and foremost. And while sometimes it has allowed some of his foes to get the first hit, he'd probably be fascinated by the Blue Beetle's armor, and might even try and give it a sec so he can study it before attacking to be quite honest:

He might even try interfacing with it and shutting it down, so the fight could be resolved without violence, and then he could go and help Hal take down Goku:

Of which I am sure the armor might not approve of...and I won't try and argue Solar hacking into sentient armor and taking control of it. Honestly, that is a level or two beyond what I have been able to produce of him hacking. So the question is, I have seen threads where people have placed Reyes as the Beetle against various Flashes, Superman types, and Lanterns...and all have had mixed results, but what exactly can the Beetle do against the likes of Solar here?

You move gents, let's see what you got=)

looks good

T4V

@wyldsong: Usually not my kind of music either. But this specific song just seemed very... fitting =P

Lol, it definitely works=)

@wyldsong: sweet bro. My post will be up tonight/ tomorrow

Tag me for votes, the reputable and credible debaters along with intriguing choices of characters Dr Solar and Jaimie Reyes should make for an enlightening CAV.

@lvenger: will do bro. And hopefully I'm one of those debaters ;)

Son-Goku, the last son of Krypton Planet Vegeta!

Aaaah Goku, the king of the Shonen anime genre and one of the most popular cartoon characters of all time. Goku is one of the most well known cartoon characters of all time and is the lead character of the popular tv show Dragonball, Dragonball Z, and Dragonball GT. Here's sme more on Goku's origin.

Now Goku is often regarded as the most powerful anime character of all time, and while this is a clear hyperbole, there's a good reason for someone to think this at first. Let's look at what makes Goku so great shall we?

Powers -

Goku has a wide array of different powers that come from his Saiyan physiology and an energy called Ki )which is synonymous with Chi/ Qi) that gives him a variety of abilities/ technique's for him to use. Some of these powers include ---

• Enhanced physicals
  • Strength: well passed the 100ton range
  • Speed: multiple times the speed of light
  • Durability: Planetary
• Flight
• Teleportation (Instant Transmission)
• Ki push/ Shout (variant of Tk)
• Energy projection (in various forms)
  • Homing
  • Suspended blasts
  • Charged blasts
  • Light beams
• Illusion creation (afterimage)

Skills -

I think everyone on CV has heard something or another about Goku's skills, and that's for very good reasons. He's trained under gods and the greatest masters of the martial arts in existence and has honed his technique's his entire life. But on top of all that Goku is even better known for his instincts. Being born a Saiyan (a race of warriors) Goku naturally takes to the marital arts and it's almost innate to him. In almost every martial arts tournament Goku's been in (especially looking at Dragonball the original show) him and his opponents technical skill is about even or they have the upper hand, but Goku's never give up attitude and creative fighting inevitably gives him the win. Using his wide array of technique's like IT, Solar flare, after image, etc. Goku has been able to get the drop on all kinds of characters from Piccolo Jr. to Cell. Heck "disappearing" has always been Goku's specialty.

Transformations -

As a kid, the most hype thing on the planet, for me, was to see Goku achieve a new level of Super Saiyan, and despite it getting pretty old pretty fast, it doesn't take away from the fact that Goku's got quite a few froms, each being stronger than the last.

1. Base: Self explanatory
2. Super Saiyan 1: 50x base
3. Super Saiyan 2: 2x Super Saiyan 1
4. Super Saiyan 3: 4x Super Saiyan 2

Now, i'll be the first one to admit that these numbers are not entirely accurate, this logic says Goku can destroy hundreds of planets in Ssj3, which simply isn't the case. Tbh Goku's feats in each from are relatively similar in terms of destructive capacity and physicals, BUT there IS a gap between them and I just wanted to make it clear that if their is a feat presented of Goku in any form below Ssj3 just know he's marginally stronger by the time he does reach his 3rd form.

Match-up wise -

It seems Goku's primary opponent is going to be Hal due to their similar speeds and capabilities, as described by @the_red_viper

So I'd strongly suggest that Goku would defeat Hal J. or just about any other superman level character (despite being in that tier himself). I'd say Goku out does Hal in nearly all regards, ill start by addressing the categories you honed in on in your opener.

• Speed: Go takes this. Traverse speed is debatable but I would say reaction speed is greatly In favor of Goku
• Durability: Naturally Goku (without shields) is drastically more durable
• Energy projection: This is Goku's forte

So with that breakdown Goku has a pretty marginal advantage, and while some aspects of the battle are close, Goku wins out. Now lets get into the three areas covered previously.

Speed.

Now I will admit Hal and Goku are neck and neck in a race, but I would say Goku edges him out in reaction times. Out of all your presented feats (at least in your opener) only one was a true reaction speed feat. And that's with Zoom. Now I have seen many users claim this to be PIS, I myself would say so as well, but i'll act as if this is a normal feat (which it really isn't). Being faster than Superman and Wonderwoman is very impressive but the fact that Zoom was preoccupied and that GL got him from behind takes away from the feat IMO. Although I think this feat proves Hal is possibly faster than Superman (impressive) Goku is as well.

Now we see Goku being able to react to something similar to your feat. We have Frieza's beam that FTL characters (piccolo and Vegeta) cant react to, much like Zoom with Superman and WW, and yet Goku can respond easily.

Just incase you were doubting if Vegeta or piccolo were FTL, Goku was all the way back when he was a Little Tike. (outrunning solar flare, a flash bang in a sense). And yet Vegeta and Piccolo were immensely faster than this version of Goku.

And Vegeta was much faster than even Piccolo.

Some key differences here though.

1. Frieza was actually targeting Goku, and wasn't preoccupied
2. Goku isn't at his fastest here where as that's one of Hals more upper end feats

So while I'd say Goku's reactions are a bit more impressive here.

Durability -

I think it's pretty well known that GLs more primary source of Defense is their shielding, and while GL has some good natural durability it isn't up to par with Goku. You've shown some moon+ feats which is very good. But Goku (as early on as namek) was shown to have multi-planetary+ durability.

Same Frieza whole reduced Planet Vegeta (which has a higher gravity than earths) to ash with one finger.

So while both are taking hits from planet busters Goku is doing so much easier and in only Ssj1. Where as GL doesn't look so good after that blitz from supes.

Offensive power -

I think we all know that Goku is a planet buster in base form. but incase you were un aware...

Notice how Vegeta claims to be able to destroy the entire planet, and Goku doesn't doubt him because he can sense Vegeta isn't bluffing. And yet Goku's Kamehameha out does Vegeta's.

Yet Goku's Kamehameha entirely over powers Vegeta's

I think this makes is clear Goku is marginally above planet busting in Ssj3. And im not so sure GL is a planet buster at all to be honest...

In conclusion

Well we've established a lot so here's a brief recap.

• Who Goku is
• What he can do
• What his forms are/ do
• That Goku has many more distinct advantages over GL
• Goku's gonna win xD

Wonder what Goku's gonna do with all these powers and strong suits?

@thenewbluebeetle007@wyldsong

I already typed this once, but CV ate my post. So if this is uncharacteristically brief compared to my other work, that is why.

Jaime Reyes, aka The Blue Beetle!

Bio

El Paso teenager Jaime Reyes stumbled upon an odd piece of machinery in a random lot.

Little did he know that this piece of tech would turn out to be alien and graft into his spine, turning him into the superhero Blue Beetle! With help from his friends, family, and former superhero Peacemaker, he has faced the Spectre, Eclipso, and Brother Eye, and stopped a whole alien invasion.

Another interesting thing to note is that Jaime's sense of right and wrong was so strong that it gave Khaji-Da the Blue Scarab sentience. Scarab was originally an infiltrator for the Reach (aliens that want to take over the Earth), but later it defied its own programming and, with Jaime's help, defeated the Reach.

Here is his official bio, from 52 Issue 32:

Gallery

Powers and Abilities

The Scarab is a piece of tech that can turn into nearly any weapon. It grants Jaime great versatility with respectable physical statistics.

• Invisibility
• Energy Blasts
• Enhanced Statistics
• Neural scramblers
• Flight
• Draining
• About a dozen other superpowers that I don't feel like typing again

Initial Points of Contention

Speed -

He has been shown to be able to amp his combat speed, and can achieve travel speeds up to lightspeed:

This is an interesting topic of discussion, and one that I'm sure I have the advantage in, because the Scarab can actually travel at supraluminal speeds (past the speed of light).

He might even try interfacing with it and shutting it down, so the fight could be resolved without violence, and then he could go and help Hal take down Goku:

This isn't going to work. Blue Beetle has hacked other Scarabs, overriding their basic programming, so it's fair to say that Solar's technopathy isn't going to work here.

(from Blue Beetle 13)

The instance is especially compelling when considering that each scarab is a technopath on its own. So, Beetle was able to out-hack multiple technopaths. Unless you show technopathy above this level, Solar's hacking will be ineffective.

Blue Beetle's Initial Battle Plan

A viable opening move would be for Jaime to use his neural scramblers:

Gallery

I honestly know very little of Solar aside from what you presented, so before I create a more thorough plan, I'd like to know:

• What are Solar's morals like?
• Where does his power comes from?
• Does he teleport in combat?

Once all these questions are answered, I can construct a legitimate strategy for Khaji-Da.

@wyldsong@speedster101@the_red_viper

@the_red_viper: I remember you said you were busy with the army stuff and all. But I recall you said you'd be back around this time. No rush just reminder

Tomorrow my friend, have no worries.

@the_red_viper: SoUnds good, excited already :)

@wyldsong: @thenewbluebeetle007: @speedster101:

Back to work! Now that intros are done, let's get to the bottom of this. My crappy computer keeps crashing the browser while I'm writing this post, so if you don't mind I'll post this up with minimal amount of images and edit them gradually later. Sorry in advance for the amount of notifications you'll get.

Let's cut straight to the chase. As established, the initial match-ups would be Hal VS Goku, and Solar VS Beetle. Now, Speedster101, let's start from the beginning.

First thing is speed. Now, you've posted some nice feats for Goku and given some things to ponder on Hal's feats. But, I don't find any of this enough to suggest Goku would get the better of Hal in that category. So let's start breaking this down shall we?

Goku's speed-not as good as you'd think:

Now, let's start with the finger-beam feat. I would say you're highballing it a bit. When you say "a whole barrage of it", you make it sound a bit different than it really was. The scans are pretty small and hard to read properly, but I clearly see the beams coming in one direction in quick succession. Goku wasn't dodging each blast individually, but all of them at the same time. Not too different than dodging just one blast, really. So in fact, while this feat is pretty nice, it's not as great as you're making it.

Moving on to the feat with the flare. Again, you're making it out to be better than what it really is. Let's take a look at those scans, as wellas 2 pages that you missed:

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What we see here, is that this guy who fought Goku (whoever he is) was, typically for DBZ characters, yelling some gibberish and preparing the attack before unleashing it. It gave Goku quite the large window of opportunity to steal Roshi's sunglasses. Nothing here suggests that Goku outran the light from the attack, and frankly that makes far less sense than Goku stealing the shades before the attack was unleashed.

So in fact, what we eventually have here isn't Goku out-manuevering a hail of FTL beams, or outrunning light. What we really have is Goku dodging a bunch of attacks that come from the same direction all at once, and stealing Roshi's sunglasses while his opponent was preparing an attack like the little punk that he is.

Now that we have a cleared picture of Goku's true speed capabilities, let's get a better look at Mr. Jordan's feats.

Hal's speed-trying to lowball it won't save you:

Out of all your presented feats (at least in your opener) only one was a true reaction speed feat. And that's with Zoom. Now I have seen many users claim this to be PIS, I myself would say so as well, but i'll act as if this is a normal feat (which it really isn't). Being faster than Superman and Wonderwoman is very impressive but the fact that Zoom was preoccupied and that GL got him from behind takes away from the feat IMO. Although I think this feat proves Hal is possibly faster than Superman (impressive) Goku is as well.

That, my friend, is where we are in a disagreement. It is by no means PIS, since Hal has been able to out-react the likes of Superman before.

For example:

Gallery

Here we have Hal trapping The Flash in an energy bubble, when Superman has proven incapable of tagging him just one page before that.

So I'd say that it's most certainly not PIS, since Hal has proven capable of feats of that caliber in the past.

Now, as to what you said on lowballing the feat... first, I would argue that Zoom wasn't really preoccupied. He has already dealt with the Trinity by the time Hal showed up, so he wasn't fighting any of them when his leg was tagged by Hal. It looks like he was just running away from the scene, so he wasn't concentrated on anything in particular. Purthermore, Hal catching Zoom is a great reaction feat regardless of whether it was from behind or not. The very fact that Hal has managed to precieve and tag something that moves that fast (namely fast enough to outright blitz both Superman and Wonder Woman), says quite a bit on his reaction speed. Same goes for the feat I just posted with The Flash.

Also, here's a fight of Hal VS Zoom. Hal believes that Zoom is actually Barry Allen, and is therefore holding back, while obviously Zoom isn't.

Gallery

Let's break this fight down, page by page:

1. Hal reacts to Zoom who was speeding towards him, from very close range, and catches him with a construct. He even states both that Barry (Zoom) wants to kill him (which means he's not holding back the slightest), and that he has no intention on hurting him (he wants to KO him quickly and find him some help), therefore he's holding back.
2. Hal reacts to a boxing-glove construct that Zoom threw back at him, and dodges it. Then he creates a bubble around himself before Zoom gets to him with that statue. Again, that is from VERY close range, and that charge has packed enough force (which means it was fast enough) to knock Zoom out. momentarily. Hal states again that he's sure Barry (Zoom) wants to kill him.
3. Hal tags Zoom again and traps him in a construct.
4. Zoom blasts Hal with weapons from Flash's entire Rogues Gallery, but Hal reacts to those blasts just fine with a shield. He also states that he has to start hitting back-which means he was seriously holding back until that point.
5. Not much to say.
6. Hal traps Zoom in a construct, again.
7. Zoom surprises Hal after traveling some moments into the past on the Cosmic Treadmill. He begins to spin him around so fast that it almost knocks Hal out. Considering the speeds that Hal travels regularly with zero trouble, Zoom is obviously spinning him at speeds that are at least thousands of times FTL. Still, Hal reacts eventually.
8. Hal protects himself from debris thrown at him by Zoom (and seeing the speeds Zoom has achieved in the previous scan, this is pretty damn impressive), and then phases through the floor without any rock thrown by Zoom hitting him. After that, Hal, in a fraction of a second, realizes there's a new enemy in the fight, which fires an energy blast at Zoom. Hal reacts fast enough to block that blast with his own blast. Seeing as how that guy almost got the drop on Zoom (and he wasn't coming at him from behind, you can clearly see Zoom is looking at him), you can say for certain that he was really fast himself.

Now, let me ask you this: does Goku have feats to show he can even precieve something that travels at speeds much faster than light regularly? In other words, would Goku even be able to see Hal coming?

Let's take the feat from my opener where Hal travels through a space warp that makes parsecs look like inches. A parsec is equal to 3.085 * 10^13 kilometers. Let's compare Hal's relative speed through this space-warp, to an average human's walking speed (although it would obviously be much faster than that. Average human walking speed would be 5 KM per hour, or 197,000 inches per hour. Which means Hal travels 197,000 parsecs in an hour, or 607,745 * 10^13 kilometers per hour. The speed of light is 1.08 * 10^9 kilometers per hour. Let's convert it a little for our convenience, and make it 0.000108 * 10^13 kilometers per hour, which is a little more than 1/10,000 * 10^13. Quick and easy division shows that Hal's speed through that space-warp is about 6,077,450,000 times the speed of light. And that's when comparing his relative speed to walking speed, which is frankly lowballing him. And luckily, Hal creates space warps quite often, so it's very likely he'll use one here too. Now, you may say that's a hyperbole/exaggeration, but the numbers speak for themselves.

So, can Goku even see Hal coming? Has he ever precieved anything that moves 6 billion times FTL?

Another thing that we should consider here is combat speed. This is pretty much the opposite to reaction speed. Combat speed determines how fast one can deliver his blows, and Hal's combat speed is very high on the charts. A good example of that would be the 3rd scan in my opener, under the damage-dealing category, where he blitzes Superman. Superman himself has plenty of FTL reaction feats that I'm sure you are aware of, which makes Hal's combat speed pretty damn impressive too.

Conclusions:

• Goku's speeds are not as good as you're making them out to be.
• Hal has reacted to speedsters such as Zoom and Flash on multiple occasions, making the feat from my opener legit and not PIS. Breakdown of this feat also shows that it is pretty impressive, unlike what you were suggesting.
• Goku can't react to things that move as fast as Hal, unless you can show otherwise.
• Hal's combat speed is FTL, to the point he can blitz Superman.

Worst comes to worst, Hal has some more aces up his sleeve.

Strength and durability:

Well, honestly, saying Hal's durability is only moon level is simply incorrect. Firstly, there's the feat where Hal was punched through a planet that I showed in my opener. The fact that this punch had the force to send Hal clear through a planet already puts Hal's durability at planet levels, and seeing that his only reaction was thinking "that guy just punched me through a planet", you can say that it's at least like Goku's "laughing off" Freiza's attack. Also, I'd say that this punch was above planet-busting in power. And this is why:

When you throw a rock at a glass window, it flat-out shatters the window, right? But if you fire a bullet at a glass window, it'll simply punch a hole through the glass and move through it. So, if that punch that sent Hal through that planet was a little less powerful, the planet would have been flat-out busted. But since Hal was punched through the planet, it is comparable to throwing a brick at a window VS shooting a window with a bullet.

Moreover there's the feat where he shields himself and others from a supernova, which also puts him at planetary+ levels of durability.

As fas as damage output goes, let's look again at Hal's feats. Punching a hole through Amazo, which damages it beyond repair, is just one good example of that. I'd settle for this now as far as damage output goes since I'm in a hurry, but I promise to elaborate some more on that in my next posts!

Now, one last point regarding both speed and strength is Goku's morals. He's notorious for having morals that flat-out prevent him from using the full extent of his abilities right off the bat, unless it's under extreme circumstances. I don't think Goku will use either the speed or the strength you've showcased right off the bat in this fight, seeing as it's not in-character for him to do so.

Conclusion/summary:

• Hal is too fast for Goku to react to.
• Hal has reacted to, and blitzed foes far faster than Goku.
• Hal's durability is above planetary even without constructs.
• Hal's damage output is enough to one-shot Amazo. Sadly I didn't have the time to expand more on this category in this post.
• Goku's morals and personality won't allow him to use his abilities to their full extent to begin with.
• Hal has innumerable aces up his sleeve that I havn't even mentioned yet.

I truly believe Hal can beat Goku. I dare you to prove me wrong!

@the_red_viper: nice man, I believe its your partners turn?

@wyldsong: your turn brother

@the_red_viper: @thenewbluebeetle007: @speedster101: At work today (24 hours), will get to this in a day or two

@wyldsong: sounds good ;)

Working on the post right now guys=)

@wyldsong: awesome! Can't wait

@thenewbluebeetle007@speedster101@the_red_viper: Sorry for the delayed response, but better late than never I guess...

So, Blue Beetle sounds pretty darn versatile, and while I have an overall plan of action from what I have seen so far, I kind of want to see just how far we can push this before I go in for the kill, so to speak=)

So, let's start with the speed front...

The Need for Speed:

"This is an interesting topic of discussion, and one that I'm sure I have the advantage in, because the Scarab can actually travel at supraluminal speeds (past the speed of light)."

And while that is a good travel speed feat, it doesn't do much on the combat speed front. I can show Solar cutting down his travel time and travelling via worm hole. Solar was looking for a star that was not near the Earth, created a wormhole to get to one, and considering the nearest star to the Earth besides the sun is 4.2 light years away...and he covered at least that distance in an instant...he can keep up in the travel speed department:

Gallery

So travel speed wise, Solar has things covered. Combat speed wise, Solar can amp his combat speed (along with his other physical stats), as seen when he blitzes a foe:

Amps his speed to deal with an alien threat, dodging blasts and destroying ships:

Gallery

Though to fully settle any potential issues with speed, I have a little something to present. The following is one of the most misunderstood and misconstrued feats that Solar has, and it was near the end of his original Valiant run. People see it, and have completely the wrong idea on just what it is he is actually doing...

Gallery

FYI: The thoughts about the gunshot killing him, are not about him dying in the literal sense. He is playing at being human, and everyone at the scene thinks he is just a baseline human, and he doesn't want to give up the identity he created for himself by revealing his powers. So he is pondering the death of this persona he created for himself, and a way to keep the persona alive without revealing his powers.

So what we are looking is not Solar stopping time. What Solar is doing is actually removing himself from the time stream, and taking a walk around to view events. While he has not displayed the ability to affect reality when he does this such as moving objects and blasting people (in fact, one other version of Solar has shown this ability, and he stated that he couldn't affect reality when he did so; see the Seleski twins stories for more on that), he can give himself a break, survey the scene, and make plans and position himself where he needs to be (he has displayed the ability to move around and change his own position when he steps back into the time stream).

Between his movement/combat speeds, the ability for wormhole travel, and the power to remove himself from the time stream...I don't think Solar will have any issues whatsoever with keeping pace in this fight.

The Failed Gambits: Technopathy and Neural Scrambling

"This isn't going to work. Blue Beetle has hacked other Scarabs, overriding their basic programming, so it's fair to say that Solar's technopathy isn't going to work here."

Well, hacking other Scarabs isn't exactly proof that he can resist getting hacked. Out hacking hackers doesn't make one immune to being hacked. Now, while I can show Solar hacking supercomputers and the like, I can't say I have anything with him hacking "sentient" machinery such as the likes of the scarab. I won't harp too much on all of this, since I already stated it was a long shot to begin with, but I am curious to see if the scarab has directly resisted such an attack...maybe not such a failed gambit after all...and I will elaborate more on this thought in the closing comments...

"A viable opening move would be for Jaime to use his neural scramblers"

A viable opening move for many foes, especially if their physiology includes actual neurons, nervous systems and such...but you see, Solar is a bit different:

This guy is pretty much pure plasma, the stuff of suns:

This from when he was still learning his powers and his outer shell was somehow pierced by some poor SOB...

According to Solar, everything is energy, and what he is, is really the truth of it all, and reality as we know it, is kind of a punishment the rest of us have to deal with:

So while he may mimic a human-like outer shell to interact with the world at large, he is pretty much an energy being playing at being human. No neurons to scramble I am afraid...

Inquiry Responses:

Not that Reye's can make much of use of all of this intel, being a random and all=)

"What are Solar's morals like?"

Solar as I am presenting him isn't generally the bloodthirsty type. He won't hold back from a fight, and generally isn't jumping to his most powerful abilities right off the bat. That being said, he also isn't one to prolong a fight.

"Where does his power comes from?"

He is an energy being and energy manipulator...so energy=)

"Does he teleport in combat?"

He's not going to pull a Nightcrawler, but teleporting in combat isn't out of the question:

Gallery

The Riposte:

While I won't argue technopathy too terribly hard, since I thought it was a long shot to begin with, I can't say the idea is entirely dead from what I have seen. Hacking other scarabs that have technopathy doesn't make Reye's scarab immune to such. It makes it a good hacker, but still not immune nor resistant. Now an attempt at neural scrambling could be seen as an act of aggression...so I guess we are going to have to escalate things a bit. Solar could always try and incapacitate Beetle like so:

Gallery

If that were to fail, there are also energy blasts:

And of course,he can also resort to good ole fisticuffs:

So, we have some options laid out on the table, and all of these are viable attacks Solar might go for.

In Conclusion:

I really think my biggest question is, has the scarab resisted technopathy/hacking? If we were talking about another machine based or AI type character or some such trying to hack into the scarab, the feat you have shown would have been pretty darn impressive, and possibly viable (even though it still doesn't show the scarab actively resisting hacking), but Solar doesn't exactly fall into those parameters. His technopathy is actually an energy manipulation feat:

He can also create holograms and such from light, just as an FYI.

...but I'd personally be satisfied with the scarab actively resisting hacking of some sort.

Speed wise, we have options. I haven't seen anything combat speed wise from Beetle that is all that concerning, and with Solar's speed amping, travel abilities, teleporting, and temporal ability...he will be able to keep up irregardless. Combat wise, if the technopathy fails, we still have options to incapacitate, blast, and otherwise pummel the Beetle into submission.

Alright my friends, onto you...

@wyldsong: awesome, and always better law than never ;)

I'll have something up sometime this week, not sure when considering I have 2 other CaVs and a tourney with pretty tight posting time frame, but something will be up soon :).

@wyldsong: just one question

you said that Solar's powers come from energy. Do you think you could elaborate? Like, does he store energy and expend it when necessary, like Superman? Does he channel another dimension's power, like the Flash?

It depends on the rendition. Out of the two I am using, one seems to never need to recharge on his energy, though it is never directly stated he has unlimited energy, and one version constantly takes in ambient energy from all around him.

@the_red_viper: @thenewbluebeetle007: @wyldsong: Sorry for the delay everyone! I have been on vacation and had 4 matches going on...

But now I'm home and I only have 2 CaVs (including this one) so I'll be able to have my post up hopefully tomorrow, the day after that at the latest. :)

Sounds good. I finished up one CaV, and am looking to close out one with TRV, leaving me with this one. I will probably hold off on more CaVs until I at least finish up the one with TRV. I need to get a good street level CaV running...

@wyldsong: Cool.

And idk why but I have always preferred upper tier CaVs as opposed to street level, but I agree if you can make a good one they're awesome, kinda hit or miss with me.

Good luck in those future outings man! But I'm gonna have to crush you in this one ;)

@wyldsong@the_red_viper@thenewbluebeetle007 ALMOST DONE GUYS! Looking for a few more feats and tweaking some things in my post, as soon as I wake up tomorrow (like afternoon LOL) ill finish and send it to my partner to look at and post it hopefully that night! And while I overestimated my ability to get this out by today ( truly sorry about that :/ ) this gets full priority over my other matches (pinky swear ;P). Again, sorry guys I know your probably frustrated...

@speedster101: No worries bud=)

Goku vs. Hal Joran! Strength// Speed// Durability

@wyldsong@thenewbluebeetle007@the_red_viper REALLY really sorry guys, I was out of town for a while on top of having other matches to attend to, but as I have (unfortunately) said a lot lately... Better late than never!?! So, with that said let's get back to this debate!

Speed.

Counter's here:

Now, let's start with the finger-beam feat. I would say you're highballing it a bit. When you say "a whole barrage of it", you make it sound a bit different than it really was. The scans are pretty small and hard to read properly, but I clearly see the beams coming in one direction in quick succession. Goku wasn't dodging each blast individually, but all of them at the same time. Not too different than dodging just one blast, really. So in fact, while this feat is pretty nice, it's not as great as you're making it.

I think you've misinterpreted the feat friend, and I think this is kinda a lame attempt at nullifying this feat (convenient you didn't quote the image eh?... ;)).

If you look at the far right panel, in the middle, you can clearly see the disperse of the beams and that Goku is dodging in all directions you can see the afterimages of Goku, which are scattered moving in different ways dodging each individual beam. You can see each movement because of the afterimages, making this point moot. It also seems you haven't made any attempt at saying that this attack is not FTL, thus acknowledging Goku is fully capable of dodging multiple FTL attacks, within quick succession of each other. In Ssj1. You must keep in mind this is one of his more early on feats.

Speaking of earlier on feats, let's take a look all the way back to Dragonball, to Goku's feat of outrunning light.

Moving on to the feat with the flare. Again, you're making it out to be better than what it really is. Let's take a look at those scans, as wellas 2 pages that you missed:

Gallery

What we see here, is that this guy who fought Goku (whoever he is) was, typically for DBZ characters, yelling some gibberish and preparing the attack before unleashing it. It gave Goku quite the large window of opportunity to steal Roshi's sunglasses. Nothing here suggests that Goku outran the light from the attack, and frankly that makes far less sense than Goku stealing the shades before the attack was unleashed.

It seems your lack of knowledge on the franchise has misguided you youngling ;). First, looking at the pages I "missed", I didn't put them in because they weren't relevant. This "jibberish" is just how they activate the attack, but that's besides the point. The main point here is Goku didn't know what kind of technique Tien was going to use, so yes he had a minor time frame from when Tien's sentence ended to when the light got to him to prepare, (very slim window) and in this time he grabbed sunglasses and put them on. But he wasn't immediately aware of exactly what he needed to do thanks to the "jibberish" like you claim, he only had that slim time frame. He was thinking on the fly and managed to do this before a beam of light travel even a few feet. I would say this puts Goku in the lightspeed tier in Dragonball, but I digress...

We have other cases of Goku's immense speed, still within just Dragonball:

Key difference here between something you would potentially see from the likes of Batman or Spiderman, is that these characters aren't escaping the eye once and disappearing, they are staying within the areas that these characters can see, but they still cant track them. Going back and forth right in front of them, yet still completely invisible for extended periods of time.

Though this whole point is trivial considering that you didn't even attempt to debunk the fact that the "finger beam feat" shows Goku's FTL abilities.

It appears you aren't in negation to the fact that Goku can react to FTL attacks in Super Saiyan 1. Meaning at Ssj3 Goku will be more than capable of keeping up with Hal.

For example:

Gallery

Here we have Hal trapping The Flash in an energy bubble, when Superman has proven incapable of tagging him just one page before that.

So I'd say that it's most certainly not PIS, since Hal has proven capable of feats of that caliber in the past.

Similarly to before, the Flash was preoccupied. The fact that Superman tried and failed actually hurts your point, the numerous leaguers were trying to catch Flash, one would have had to catch him. Looking at it, the very feat Hal caught Flash was immediately after Flash was looking backwards at Hawkman, evading him. He ran right into Hal. Aside from the inherent flaw with this feat there are other things worth noting as well:

1. Hal has ways to capture someone at range. Superman had to run up and try to grab the speedster. Where as Hal just had him run right into his construct.
2. I had actually already stated that both Hal and Goku are faster than Superman in my opening post, so this point is kind of moot.

Now, as to what you said on lowballing the feat... first, I would argue that Zoom wasn't really preoccupied. He has already dealt with the Trinity by the time Hal showed up, so he wasn't fighting any of them when his leg was tagged by Hal. It looks like he was just running away from the scene, so he wasn't concentrated on anything in particular. Purthermore, Hal catching Zoom is a great reaction feat regardless of whether it was from behind or not. The very fact that Hal has managed to precieve and tag something that moves that fast (namely fast enough to outright blitz both Superman and Wonder Woman), says quite a bit on his reaction speed. Same goes for the feat I just posted with The Flash.

If you take a second look at that feat my friend, you would see that he had just barely finished off Wonder Woman and was moving away from the scene looking back away from Hal. Now, this feat is still good no matter how you look at it, but Hal getting the drop on Zoom and using his ranged attacks to capture him (rather than directly being able to catch him) is not nearly as impressive as you made it out to be. I strongly believe Goku would be able to perceive Zoom and if he had the drop on him, as well as the range, he could easily accomplish the same feat.

Also, here's a fight of Hal VS Zoom. Hal believes that Zoom is actually Barry Allen, and is therefore holding back, while obviously Zoom isn't.

I wouldn't necessarily say that Zoom is going all out here, he is kinda jobbing and is talking to Hal, mocking him the entire time.

Gallery

Let's break this fight down, page by page:

1. Hal reacts to Zoom who was speeding towards him, from very close range, and catches him with a construct. He even states both that Barry (Zoom) wants to kill him (which means he's not holding back the slightest), and that he has no intention on hurting him (he wants to KO him quickly and find him some help), therefore he's holding back.
2. Hal reacts to a boxing-glove construct that Zoom threw back at him, and dodges it. Then he creates a bubble around himself before Zoom gets to him with that statue. Again, that is from VERY close range, and that charge has packed enough force (which means it was fast enough) to knock Zoom out. momentarily. Hal states again that he's sure Barry (Zoom) wants to kill him.
3. Hal tags Zoom again and traps him in a construct.
4. Zoom blasts Hal with weapons from Flash's entire Rogues Gallery, but Hal reacts to those blasts just fine with a shield. He also states that he has to start hitting back-which means he was seriously holding back until that point.
5. Not much to say.
6. Hal traps Zoom in a construct, again.
7. Zoom surprises Hal after traveling some moments into the past on the Cosmic Treadmill. He begins to spin him around so fast that it almost knocks Hal out. Considering the speeds that Hal travels regularly with zero trouble, Zoom is obviously spinning him at speeds that are at least thousands of times FTL. Still, Hal reacts eventually.
8. Hal protects himself from debris thrown at him by Zoom (and seeing the speeds Zoom has achieved in the previous scan, this is pretty damn impressive), and then phases through the floor without any rock thrown by Zoom hitting him. After that, Hal, in a fraction of a second, realizes there's a new enemy in the fight, which fires an energy blast at Zoom. Hal reacts fast enough to block that blast with his own blast. Seeing as how that guy almost got the drop on Zoom (and he wasn't coming at him from behind, you can clearly see Zoom is looking at him), you can say for certain that he was really fast himself.

Again, if you look at the feats, Zoom is just "trolling" Hal. Looking at your second to last scan Zoom even comments "what fun" as he's thrashing Hal. Despite this, Hal isn't having the best of times even commenting "he's impossible to track" at the bottom of the 6th scan. Every time Hal catches Zoom in a construct he laughs, monologues a bit, and escapes easily disappearing. I don't think these feats put Hal anywhere near a serious flashes speed tier.

Now, let me ask you this: does Goku have feats to show he can even precieve something that travels at speeds much faster than light regularly? In other words, would Goku even be able to see Hal coming?

This statement is a bit ludicrous, you acknowledged Goku's ability to dodge at least a single FTL projectile above (in reality it was more than one single projectile, but even if we use your lowballing my point still applies) in Ssj1. How can you go back on this and say can Goku in Ssj3 perceive a FTL attack? Lightspeed is a base Goku feat my friend.

Let's take the feat from my opener where Hal travels through a space warp that makes parsecs look like inches. A parsec is equal to 3.085 * 10^13 kilometers. Let's compare Hal's relative speed through this space-warp, to an average human's walking speed (although it would obviously be much faster than that. Average human walking speed would be 5 KM per hour, or 197,000 inches per hour. Which means Hal travels 197,000 parsecs in an hour, or 607,745 * 10^13 kilometers per hour. The speed of light is 1.08 * 10^9 kilometers per hour. Let's convert it a little for our convenience, and make it 0.000108 * 10^13 kilometers per hour, which is a little more than 1/10,000 * 10^13. Quick and easy division shows that Hal's speed through that space-warp is about 6,077,450,000 times the speed of light. And that's when comparing his relative speed to walking speed, which is frankly lowballing him. And luckily, Hal creates space warps quite often, so it's very likely he'll use one here too. Now, you may say that's a hyperbole/exaggeration, but the numbers speak for themselves.

Oh boy... This is like vine-force Flash level fan calcs bro... If you want me to bust out some DBZ fan calcs, then frankly Goku stomps, but imo calcs and hyperbole means nothing in a debate. But either way, this is when using a "Warp-Gate" basically a portal. He can't attack people while moving through a portal, until he comes out the other end. Once he's out the other end, then of course Goku could react.

Secondly, Goku can teleport as well, and unlike your portals, Goku's teleportation is true teleportation and is "instant". The instant-transmission technique.

So, can Goku even see Hal coming? Has he ever precieved anything that moves 6 billion times FTL?

No, and he doesn't have to, because Hal normally is nowhere close. Also, i would like to look a bit of a contradiction within your post... You emphasized the importance of combat speed and the distinct difference between combat speed and other kinds of speed. So even if Hal COULD travel at 6 billion times lightspeed without a worm-hole his combat speed isn't anywhere close to this, negating this 6 billion times lighspeed blitz nonsense.

Another thing that we should consider here is combat speed. This is pretty much the opposite to reaction speed. Combat speed determines how fast one can deliver his blows, and Hal's combat speed is very high on the charts. A good example of that would be the 3rd scan in my opener, under the damage-dealing category, where he blitzes Superman. Superman himself has plenty of FTL reaction feats that I'm sure you are aware of, which makes Hal's combat speed pretty damn impressive too.

I agree, combat speed is very important, good thing combat speed is Goku's specialty! I'll cover more of this once i'm done countering you.

Now that were done with that, think's it time I stop holding out on you and show you some of what Goku really has up his sleeve.

Goku's speed:

In your "conclusion" you called into question Goku's ability to even react to Hal (despite my above FTL feat) and claimed Hal's combat speed was far superior. So allow me to prove you wrong my friend:

For starters I would like to address your claims regarding Goku's inability to react to FTL beings, namely Hal Jordan. First let's look at Goku's ability to react to Hal Jordan.

Goku's reaction's vs. Hal's combat

I'd like to look at what you had established regarding Hal's combat speed:

• Can tag Superman

But even this, your sole claim to power here, isn't exactly concrete... (I'll show why below). Also, he hardly blitzed him, Superman was able to think an entire sentence before Hal landed his attacks "Man those power rings have always packed a punch". Assuming this is all legitimate though, this doesn't put Hal with in the speed tier of blitzing Goku. Let's take a look at another one of Goku's earlier on fights versus the Ginyu Force, most notably Burter (the blue guy).

Putting the above into perspective the blue guy is FTL and his partner, while not being as fast, is hardly incompetent.

Goku makes a complete mockery of him.

Taking on two characters (one of which is confirmed FTL), reacting to their blitz, and completely stomping them later on (note in base form) is pretty solid. Seeing as Hal's only combat feat that you have displayed is getting some shots in (not even blitz) on Superman (who's powers are hardly consistent considering the fact that he holds back incredibly often), Goku casually reacting to and stomping FTL characters, dodging a barrage of FTL energy beams at once, and being faster than the human eye can track as a teen, make him MORE than capable of countering a blitz from Hal.

Goku's combat vs Hal's reaction's

Again going to cover what you've established regarding Hal's reaction times:

• Can tag Zoom at range, in a sneak attack
• Can tag a jobbing Zoom

I can't say i'm necessarily impressed. Before I show Goku's abilities here I would like to "expose" Hal and further support my above points, regarding Hal's inability to outspeed Flashes in an EVEN setting (not when he has the drop on them).

Or even in your opening post when he was blitzed by Superman (holding back) in the New52. I think Green Lantern isn't distinctly faster than any of the other JLA A-listers, and the only reason he is capable of tagging these faster characters is his ability to create constructs in front of them to catch them.

Now let's look at some instances of Goku's combat speed (since you mentioned the drastic difference between reaction and combat).

Before I display one of Goku's fights versus Vegeta, I need to explain one of Goku's technique's known as the Kaioken. Goku puts it better than I could so here...

Key thing to note: 1 heart beat, essentially a single second. Now, keep in mind that the entire following fight sequence takes place with in the span of one use of Kaioken.

This entire 8 minute video, of Goku blitzing (the FTL) Vegeta, took place with in the span of a single second. Looking at how many hits Goku got in on Vegeta in a single second, I don't think it would take long for Goku to be all over Hal, especially in Ssj3. At most Hal will have to time either

• Set up a force field
• Respond with an energy attack

But Goku is highly proficient at parrying energy blasts and flanking around continuing his combo as if nothing happened. Also, Hal's forcefields are far from stopping a planet buster like Goku. Especially since they have failed against weaker characters before.

As well as...

have one-shotted Hal's shields before. I see no reason why Goku couldn't. Relatively easily.

So, now that dominance has been asserted here, we can move on the categories you seemed to pay less attention to...

Strength and Durability.

Counters here:

Goku's Offense/ Defense:

Goku's ability to hurt Hal

This is pretty simple really, the most you have shown of Hal is him having planetary+ durability, which is all fine and dandy, but when opposed by Goku's level of offensive pressure, Hal's shields/ natural durability simply won't hold up.

Let's look at what Goku's packing in the way of striking.

Now to put this feat into perspective.

Goku had this guy on the floor, coughing up blood with one blow.

I would say that this is well beyond the type of punishment Hal is use to taking, but I think it's time I finally bust out one of Goku's Ssj3 feats...

Now, before the point is made that King Kai's planet is incredibly small, we must take into account that it's gravity is over 10x that of earths, making it far more dense and actually far harder to destroy than any earth sized planet. (I can provide calcs if need be). A 10x planet busting attack, is a little above Hal's pay-grade wouldn't you say? Not so sure how many of Goku's punches Hal could survive once Goku hits Ssj1, much less Ssj3.

This coupled with Goku's energy projection (i'll cover at a later point if need be, but Goku's punches are seemingly all Hal could take), and Hal is going down... Hard.

Hal's inability to hurt Goku

First I'll cover the physical side of Hal's arsenal, and then his energy attacks.

Physical -

By physical I mean Hal's constructs. I actually don't think Hal's constructs will do much at all, they have been shattered by weaker characters and after a full onslaught from Hal, all Superman had to say was "they pack a punch" the visible damage was practically non-existent. Even still I will show Goku's ability to tank physical attacks (physicals are highly underrated in DBZ for some reason).

Here we see Goku casually deflecting attacks from the Super Saiyan Trunks' sword:

Now to put this into perspective for you. You remember that Frieza guy? Ya know who tanked a spirit bomb, getting cut in half, drained, the vacuum of space, and an exploding planet, ya that guy? Well, Trunks' sword was able to hack threw Frieza like he was butter:

This puts Goku's single finger on the multi-planetary level, still all just in Ssj1.

Claiming Hal could really do much to Goku at all is a bit far fetched imo.

Energy -

This is kind of any DBZ characters specialty. Once again Hal is at the planetary level maximum, laughable to someone like Goku. I have already shown (in opener) Goku tanking planetary blasts to the face, if anything else is required their is plenty more for Goku, especially at full power, but for now tanking planetary attacks is enough to nullify all Hal's projectiles.

Summary.

Striking -

Goku is superior, being able to floor multi-planetary characters with one strike whereas Hal fails to do significant damage to Superman after a full scale assault.

Speed -

This is the only category that's legitimately debatable, but Goku still takes the edge once you look past the insane high-balling. Being able to blitz FTL characters and react to FTL projectiles, Goku edges Hal out.

Durability -

Hal's shields aren't nearly enough to put him on Goku's level. In Ssj1 Goku's finger is more durable than Hal.

Summary.

• Goku's physicals are just on another level.
• The large majority of my feats displayed here are of Goku in Ssj1 or lower nullifying the argument that Goku wouldn't use these powers at the beginning. This is how Goku warms up.
• Goku's versatility with his Ki attacks and technique's adds to his arsenal, and this will be expanded upon further if need be
• Goku wins here man, Hal will be a nice workout though ;).

Next post i'll go over a bit more of Goku's fighting style and how he'll make use of his superior stats. But until then... your up mah man! @thenewbluebeetle007

@thenewbluebeetle007: Bump