Had this discussion with a friend who enjoys comics but not the X-Men because they are grounded on evolution as the basis of their powers, He and I are Christians but this never really bothered me about the stories as it did him. It struck me that perhaps if he wanted to look at the X-Men more in a realm he was comfortable with, maybe he should see them as the descendants of Nephilim from the Bible. It says that angels (probably fallen angels) mated with humans and their offspring had great strength and powers. God wiped most of them from the earth with the Flood but some were still around after. So I told him that there must have been slight genetic alterations for them to have great strength and powers and it could have been passed down through generations so that there were still totally normal humans and some with the potential for superhuman powers.

Thought maybe this might be an idea for Marvel to do if they wanted to try to reach some more fans who weren't comfortable with the theory of evolution. Heroes did the same kind of thing, where they made out that the powers could be from evolution of DNA or that the powers were Godsend. The RNA symbol that appeared throughout the show was also a symbol translating to "God Sending Great Ability".

Thought it might be an interesting idea but maybe I'm overanalyzing so my buddy will keep up with X-Men haha

As far-fetched a concept as it seems to me, it does somewhat prove a potentially plausible origin that most or a certain quota of fans could accept--but imo it's got far too many religious ties to it, and religion, in my experience, is an EXTREMELY touchy subject. Being a Christian, i can see why the concept of evolution isn't one that's got positive connotations in terms of religion, but then i've no problem reading my X-Comics. Still, it's a touchy subject.

And comic book fans can turn anything into a political incident.

(lovely idea, though)

Are christians against alien's theory too? Cause some people like the Idea of the X-men being descendants from an advanced alien society who landed in the earth eons ago when humans were still primitive. It is another point of view too.

@ageofhurricane Well and that's why it only ever occurred to me now how they could tie it in because it never really bothered me about the comics but I understand, it is a very touchy subject but with X-Men they always give different points of view and handle them (most of the time in my experience) respectfully, which is what I love about the comic.

@ultra_beleco That's a good point, I'm sure some are against the idea of aliens but I always turn them to a couple of books by C.S. Lewis called the Space Trilogy. He has a great way of introducing ideas that don't seem to fit into the mindset of some Christians and have them come across in a very respectful, wonderful and entertaining way that leaves you feeling as, "Yes, I could absolutely see that as how the universe(s) are designed." I'll introduce that idea to my buddy also. Thanks for pointing that out!

@guardian3712: Fantastic idea, however I really doubt they would even blur a line to mention this type of religious benefit or religious non-hostile / non-prejudice intent. You could probably fill a couple of phone books with all the anti-religion ideas and story lines in the X universe since God Loves Man Kills. I'm not trying to sound like a Claremont fanatic, but honestly he did it best in that GN. Since many vapid writers like to copy him incessantly, it's reared its ugly head so many times I just close the book when I see it now. It then gets two pieces of tape, placed into the long-box never to be seen or heard from again. Anyway great post, great ideas definitely thinking outside the box with "X". Via Con Dios.

@chasereis: Thanks! I appreciate the compliment! I've seen the same thing over the years but, luckily, there are some writers who, while they may not agree with certain beliefs and/or religions, keep them in a good light especially when they are reflected through a character who holds a religious belief in the story which offers me encouragement. Via Con Dios, I like that. It's cool.

Yea I think religion should be kept out of it. I'd stick to just something like the 1st development of the atom bomb from way back when or a meteor/comet hitting the earth as the reason for mutation. I hate when it gets too too political and I dont really want religion there either and or the record and not to offend anyone but I think homosexuality should be left out of it too.

it's a plausible Idea but I honestly do not see it working out. Things tend to become controversial when religion is involved.

Interesting...I know the story very well but here's why I personally would have a problem with it.

Genesis tells us Angels were gazing upon women and desired to be with them. They took human form and had sex with them. Leaving their place in Heaven. Their offspring where the Nephilim. Violent men that filled the primitive world with iniquity. So much so God decided to wipe the earth clean with the deluge. The only survivors being Noah and his family because they chose to heed God's warning of the deluge.

That's the story. Your idea would be a fascinating origin story except for one point. If mutants are genetic descendants of the Nephilim then they would represent an evil act that God disapproved. Rebellious Angles bore Nephilim that were a hybrid species that God did not intend to exist and filled the world with violence. See what I'm getting at? It would be a horrible thing to have our super heroes associated with. Interesting idea but I think you'd open a can of evil-hybrid-worms! :P

Marvels accounts of mutant and human development actually already do a great job of undermining what evolution actually is. Celestials, Evolutionaries, and other creatures tampering and changing biological organisms on Earth to bring about advanced changes in biology. So you could tell your friend that maybe? Except it rules out your proposal as well.

In my opinion, maybe it might be better to introduce him to people like Francis Collins? Collins is an Evangelical Christian and has written many Christian apologetic books, and is a staunch defender of Christianity. He also happens to have had a top leadership role in the Human Genome Project (I think top?) as well as a stanch advocate of evolution, which isn't something you should really believe in, rather something you understand and know. Much like an earlier posters meme about the sun. Good luck in any sense!

@guardian3712:

To me, ideas like the Celestials don't exactly undermine actual evolution so much as they are a mythology that tries to incorporate ideas associated with evolution; the idea being that they are beings whose understanding of evolution is so far in advance of our own that to them tampering with a whole species or even planet is like what gardening or agriculture would be to us.

I wasn't trying to be belittling with that post, by the way, in case anyone was offended by it.

Though I realize that many Christians are taught to not recognize the existence of evolution, to my mind the two are not mutually exclusive. Even taking for granted that the Bible is literally the word of God, it is generally accepted that those words were relayed to, interpreted by, and for the benefit of mortal men who would not necessarily have any understanding of concepts such as evolution.

That we live in a time that we can take concepts like evolution as self evident doesn't mean that we have to disregard the lessons of Christianity, but nor does appreciating those lessons mean that we need to disregard our own God given faculties of logic and reason.

The X-men are a fiction that lives in a fictitious world, somewhere between science fiction and mythology. Like the gods and heroes of old, they exist as symbols, representing different ideas and viewpoints participating in what is largely an engagement with ethics. Ethics is how we decide for ourselves what is morally right or wrong by weighing one moral value against another (for example, killing people is morally wrong, but what if not killing someone meant more people died? that would be a question of ethics as opposed to morals).

In that context, each character represents a different argument or point of veiw: the heroes are generally champions of various virtues and moral values, while the villains generally represent less altruistic or more selfish arguments; the more complex characters often represent an ethical dilemma within themselves, or serve to establish one by exposing an innate hypocrisy within an existing moral value.

I think one of the reasons that Marvel would rather avoid themes based on religion would be that they wouldn't want to presume to speak on behalf of people on that basis. Nightcrawler is a good example in that his character is that of a devoutly faithful Christian. He questions his faith, he sins unrepentantly, yet he never stops believing in his faith; this is problematic in so far as he becomes to the story the voice of what a good Christian is, as he is it's chief representative. As great a character as I think Nightcrawler is (he's probably my favorite), I think it really comes down to Marvel not wanting to tell people what they should believe based on their faith, as that differs greatly from one person to another.

Mutants are a belayed side effect of the same experiments that created the Inhumans.

As a Christian, I'm cool with it. Whether it's creationism or evolution, the Marvel Universe is fictional, I don't need its concepts of the universe to match up with mine.

@oldnightcrawler said:

Are we talking about the same thing? That in order for humans and mutants to occur it took the tampering of advanced lifeforms to achieve what we know is otherwise possible in real life naturally? Well not the mutants or eternals part, just the humans part. Not just our planet, but other planets, and with other planets its even more extreme. I can't even think of one species that is relatively advanced that didn't occur naturally without the intervention of Celestials, they are responsible for the Kree and Skrulls too among others 0_0

Exactly, well said. I think there are usually more political and geographic than religious reasons going on as far as peoples recognition of evolution. Religion is being used as a tool but the reasons/motivation are political/geographic.

eloquent point.

Like I said, the MU exists somewhere between science fiction and mythology. The story of the Celestials is basically a creationist myth that tries to not rule out evolution so much as incorporate it. We, as humans, know that evolution is process that can be tampered with, using knowledge acquired through science.

The idea of the Celestials, I thought, was that the gods who created the MU were simply immortals who had the scientific knowledge to create life and alter life forms, and that their existence excluded neither the observable facts of evolution nor the idea that they themselves were created by something greater. I could be wrong though, as they've never been a concept that interested me that much.

@oldnightcrawler said:

Depends what a person defines as tampered with, I think I understand your point about the MU but to me its just fiction. Its too broad and subjective to label it any further, and in reality many people who don't understand evolution but claim they do, often try to dispute and undermine evolution with very fallacious examples in order to support the political agenda that is Intelligent Design. This includes arguments about life being too complex and advanced to happen without intervention and tampering by higher powers. There could be at least some examples of advanced species akin to humans out there by naturalistic processes, but there aren't really any prominent ones. Evolutionarie's arc was even worse because then it wasn't even about hominids real life great successes and developments but an alien species ensuring survival of some species. Imagine if X-Men comics tried to retcon Martin Luther King, Jr's speech from its history and attributed what he said and did to Xavier? To some it might be okay, but it can and does undermine aspects of both things and its okay to understand and be aware of such things. Doesn't stop me from enjoying comics.

I love the Celestials, I wrote half of their CV bios, but Marvel writers tendency to write that a "painting has a painter" aside from being pretty common natural way of our species viewing things initially, is also a bit cringeworthy when people learn and know how fallacious that type of thinking is. Many X-Men comics actually does a great job of good science and evolution, just not all and not always. Celestials were based on Erich Von Daniken idea's of space gods, they basically go around seeding planets and tampering with lower life forms (bacteria one time) to create more advanced species then they judge which species are worthy to live among other things. Of course its possible to accommodate Celestials and evolution, my point is very precisely that it undermines evolution, not rules it out, but I never expected to learn evolution from my comics I just think it would actually be good if in this day and age of libraries and internet comic writers could be more knowledgable and objective when it comes to things like history, science, evolution, even religion. If Nightcrawler identified as Roman Catholic then having him act more like a a proponent of Islam would undermine both religions. Its the same when they get cultural things wrong - I can look past it but I enjoy the product the better informed the writer and artist are.

@sc: I meant tampered with in the sense of things like pugs, square watermelons, and that stuff they serve at KFC.

But I totally see your point and I agree. It's one of the reasons stuff like the Celestials and much of the "cosmic" side of Marvel has never really interested me; it's just too far fetched for me too get past.

I like that X-men and marvel characters in general have superpowers, that are a reflection of what they are meant to represent as characters, but really any explanation for why they have those is going to be a product of fantasy.

@oldnightcrawler said:

Oh my apologies, I understood what you meant, my rhetoric was meant to convey that homo sapiens as a species reached a point where their influence and social structure has allowed knowledge to be passed down and that has also allowed along with some of our relatively more unique abilities the chance to pool knowledge that we have learned about the world and environment around us. Celestials may be so advanced and godlike that to them tampering around with us is akin to us tampering around with dog breeding but the Celestials were created by intelligence, and now (in Marvel at least) so are we, and any other intelligent species. It implies it can't happen naturally and the beauty and best parts of evolution to me, and to many is actually about why and how intelligence does arrive naturally because of natural processes. Its a bit like that phrase the truth is stranger than fiction yes? Heh heh. Marvel could exploit our curiosity and appreciation of such things to make stories more enjoyable, even if it meant having a fancy writer retcon that Celestials only altered some early hominids but not all, a different branch - well I don't want to go into too much detail heh heh but there are ways.

To me the best fantasy is grounded by reality. I like the X-Men for the same reasons you do, but if Cyclops turned into a shoe then spent 24 pages in a white room eating buildings and talking in goat noises that apart from being fantastical would be fantasy without a basis in reality. Most of us read about ourselves, comic characters for the most part are humanoid, if they are humanoid then they are borrowing from reality. Communicating? Reality. Not flying off the page into the sky? Yeah Marvel reality has gravity too, another facet of reality. Its true that a lot of what a person is okay with as far as reality and its breaches have to do with intuition. Gravity unlike evolution is something we experience firsthand from before birth. There are many reasons why its more intuitive to us than say evolution, which as far as psychologically isn't that intuitive to us generally. So it does sort of come down to a persons discretion, which is where our points meet and shake hands heh heh ^_^

Thank you, I enjoyed this discussion.

well, the Celestials literally were created by intelligence, in so far as they are characters in a story. On a certain level, the MU has an awareness of itself as a fiction, like She-Hulk or Deadpool breaking the fourth wall, or when the Fantastic 4 met their creator and it was Jack Kirby. Though I do see this as being problematic on the level of a parable, because of the implications you mentioned.

I actually thought that the Celestials did simply alter the course of evolution (pretty much the way you describe how they should have been at the end there), and didn't realize that their origins had been so blatantly stated.

exactly. All of this.

me too.

but I can't shake the feeling that I've just had this explained to me as though I'm a person who believes in religion, for which I would rather make clear that I am not.