what more can I say about that other post

Spectacular Spider-Man is excellent. End of Story.

I preferred Clone Wars 2003 rather than the modern 3D CGI series

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I have found a new appreciation for Emma Frost. Much the same as I found an appreciation for Cyclops after he was dead. Therefore I am ok with either Jott or Scemma. So long as Jean is not with Logan.

Lana Lang is Superman's first girlfriend from his Kansas days. She also has reddish hair which makes her the next best thing to a redhead.

While I don't really have a horse in this race, I always liked the contradictory duality of Mary Jane Watson and Black Cat as love interests for Spider-Man in terms of sexuality.

Mary Jane is commonly put in the role of the "good girl" despite her background as a party girl who had a long list of flings besides Peter. She's cast in the role of the "pure waifu", so to speak, yet she's not.

Felicia is portrayed as the "bad girl", the tempting femme fatale, yet she's obsessively devoted to only loving Peter and all but spelled out to have lost her virginity to him (disregarding Kevin Smith's godawful rape retcon - which I think pretty much everyone does). She fits the role of the "pure waifu" to a T, yet she's not.

Granted, later writers kinda wrecked that dynamic but it was still interesting.

@orangebat Felicia did'nt initially devote herself to loving Peter, she started out loving just the Spider, not the man...and when she lost knowledge of the identity, she wasn't interested in finding out who the man was for a long time, until her life gradually broke down and she deduced it was because she had lost that connection to the man.

MJ loves both the man and the Spider, always has, and her flings were due to her fear of commitment to Peter and because of her family's history of failed relationships, what makes her the flawed-yet-perfect 'waifu' is she overcomes those persistent fears and emerges a stronger and greater ally, confidant, and lover to Peter.

MJ is a law-abiding citizen, she hasn't resorted to petty thievery. She is a hero. Felicia? She simply isn't, her love for Peter doesn't deter her from crossing the event horizon morally.

And, again, you can 'disregard' canon all you want...until Marvel flat out says it didn't happen, then it still did. Felicia didn't lose her virginity to Peter and she was raped. Fact. Sins Past happened to Gwen. Fact. OMD still happened. Fact. All this is canon...ignored? Maybe. Canon? Absolutely.

@ursaber: Sorry didnt see this, it didnt notify me.

@iamre321: it does that

I mean, based on the movies alone I think Gwen in Webb's movies >>>>>>>>>>>> Raimi's MJ (or Watt's MJ for that matter) and it isn't close.

In the comics, I haven't really been a huge fan of Gwen. I agree with @ursaber when he says that the 60s/70s comics with her and Peter going out didn't ever really flesh out her character or their relationship too much, so I've never had much of an opinion on her. TBH, a lot more has been done to flesh her character out recently (Spider-Man: Blue, Clone Conspiracy, Sins Past, etc.) and one of those stories is widely regarded as one of the worst Spider-Man stories of all time. Personally, the only time I think their relationship was better than just "meh" was in Spider-Man: Blue, and even then it was more the memory of their relationship that worked better than the actual relationship itself. I guess that's the issue between comparing characters with like around 50 - 100 appearances (Gwen) with characters that have the benefit of being developed over probably 300 - 400+ appearances (MJ).

Hmmm never looked at it that way before, interesting point. I also liked how Symbiote Spider-man elaborated more on Peter and Felicia's relationship.

Yeah that's fair. I think during that time love interests in comics were usually just like more or less damsels in distress types and they didn't develop her too much. I feel like MJ had the advantage of being around longer and changing with the times.

Really didn't like the way Gwens been treated since her death with all the cloning and such. Heard good things about Spider-man Blue but gotta be honest I met the artist Tim Sale many years ago in comic con and he came across as very arrogant and unlikable, not a huge fan of his art style either...

It's like 14 years just up and vanished...

The actual wedding itself may have been 'rushed', but the relationship had been building for quite some time.

@EvilTyger: Exactly. Peter and MJ had a previous romantic history, were excellent friends to one another before and after (with a few hiccups in between for dramatic effect), and had recently become confidants to one another. They were pretty much a couple without realising it after the Alien Costume saga. Like I said earlier in the thread, some people build on that and can get married on spur of the moment in reality, and sometimes those marriages work despite being 'rushed'.

Take for example, WWF/WWE personality Shawn Micheals, he first noticed his wife on television, got in touch with her, and within days were married, and that marriage has stuck his whole life.

In Ultimate Spider-Man, the comic book, Bendis gave MJ a speech about what it was like to find out Peter's secret. When Peter shared it with her, MJ felt in that moment, despite how young they were, that they'd become husband and wife.

@ursaber: I just read through Austen's Superman run it was interesting...

Peter, Spider-Man, same character. If you read closely, you'd realize that I was referring to the fact that Felicia was always obsessive over only one man for most of her history. Mary Jane was not. It's not some kind of indictment of her fictional character that you need to leap nobly to the defense of, it's an observation of how their characters are the reverse of the stereotypical sexual roles in which the two are usually cast.

Yes, post-Kevin-Smith, she was raped (even though 80% of that run has been contradicted in later stories and most writers don't even acknowledge it). Which is why I said it was an interesting dynamic BEFORE Marvel wrecked it.

Since Gwen is DEAD, I can't see why Marvel will not re-establish Peter's relationship with Betty Brant. They are too obsessed with Gwen Stacy and Felicia Hardy. Post-OMD era should have focused on Betty Brant accession towards becoming Peter's love interest once again. Instead, we had all of those forgettable relationships because the writers never focused on their developing friendship, first of all.

Betty is more a sister to Peter than a love interest....first crushes rarely last through your life.

@ursaber: So I just read through some comics called 'Spider-man loves Mary Jane' and even in those comics they don't become a couple in the end and Peter and Gwen are the better couple still lol.

Also looks like Gwen is finally getting her own series soon!

https://mlpnk72yciwc.i.optimole.com/w:600/h:412/q:auto/https://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/scaled.screen-shot-2019-11-12-at-12.24.40-pm.jpg

Likes like she'll finally get some more development and backstory. We'll see how she was before she went to college with Peter.

Also just a side note I normally love Adam Hughes covers but man that cover looks bad lol...

@iamre321: you should check out the present ASM run with Nick Spencer. The whole Hydra Cap fiasco, he did not bring it here.

And the Amazing Mary Jane solo comic. It will make you fall in love with Marvel's iconic redhead. You'll be all like "Gwen who?"

@iamre321: A detail you're omitting due to your bias is that Sean McGuire's run of Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane shows Peter and Gwen don't work out as a couple in it. Not only does Peter's antics as Spidey get in the way, Gwen ends up being more controlling of Peter and becomes incredibly envious of Peter's close friendship with MJ to the point she didn't want him seeing her, and it led to her calling the whole thing off. A true girlfriend would not have been so controlling and would have understood their closeness. Gwen didn't.

So no, they were NOT the "better couple", all the relationships in the book are pretty messy due to how young the characters are, and since it was a Mary Jane book, she was allowed to be the better PERSON in the book, as she grew from being envious of Peter and Gwen to giving them space and try to sort out her own dating problems with Harry and friendships with Liz etc...then she and Peter came together at the end and resumed their friendship once Gwen was out of the picture.

Really, I don't think you care about the specifics or the mission statement of some of these books, you would say Ultimate Peter and Gwen were the better couple if you can help it just because they were together briefly in that run, even if Bendis' intention was to show how they simply could not work together.

I'd say the better couple in Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane was Spidey and Firestar. Peter's kind of an odd character in the series, he dated Gwen while still having feelings for MJ, and hung out with Firestar despite liking MJ and dating Gwen. Dude's commitments were all over the place.

And according to Sean McGuire, the writer, he intended for Peter and MJ to become a couple after the book ended, the final panel in his run with their hands almost touching was meant to symbolise it. He had nothing to do with the sequel that came out later where the two were just friends, and Peter and Gwen didn't try again. So fans of either pairing didn't get what they wanted, rofl.

As for Gwen getting a solo...so what? This isn't the first time they've tried giving her dimension and backstory, and it's never worked. Gwen's a blank slate and everyone is wise to Marvel's bias towards trying to make her mean more than she actually did. It's a cheap gimmick, everyone knows the real history of Gwen compared to MJ. MJ, even today, continues to have organic and logical development as a character, where as all Gwen gets is retcons and revisions, doomed to forever try and play catch up with a premiere sprinter like MJ.

@ursaber:Nick Spencer's run is pretty good so far, not a huge fan of the Absolute Carnage and 2099 stuff and just wish they would do Spider-man stuff instead of all these tie ins. I do like a lot about his run though and now Silver Sable is back which is cool.

I just want to see who Kindred really is. The recent art really is great though.

I've been reading the Amazing MJ comic, don't see anything special about it. Just her working on a movie project with Mysterio. Never really viewed MJ as attractive, maybe the Spider-man movies hurt it but just never viewed her as attractive.

I hope the Gwen Stacy comic is good though, hopefully they don't try and make her a copy of Spider-gwen.

@zariusii: Ugh... you again. Why you keep coming back to this post?

Also Gwen wasn't in the wrong. She put up with a lot of Peter's drama and stayed with him after finding out his secret, which even MJ didn't know then. She has a right to feel the way she did because Peter still had feelings for MJ even though he was dating Gwen. His relationship stuff was a mess in those books and Gwen deserved better.

I already said I know that Marvel has made Peter and MJ endgame but to me Peter and Gwen is my favored and preferred couple.

What's cool about it is how they write and portray Mary Jane as this proactive extroverted and determined character.

How MJ's clear and obvious classical and flamboyant redheaded beauty escapes you in this of all comics is beyond me.

@ursaber: Lol idk everyone likes different things I guess.

Plus my first intro to her was through those Sam Rami films and she always came across and whiny instead fun and supportive.

My first REAL intro to Gwen Stacy was with Emma Stone in the ASM memories (well the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon tbh but it didn't leave so much a mark).

I thought Gwen was times better than Raimi MJ. But when I got to the comics, the appeal was not the same.

I too dislike Raimi MJ but love almost all other iterations of her.

Gwen, I only really like Emma Stone's portrayal. Emma Stone would have been a perfect Mary Jane and Kirsten Dunst fit the role more of Gwen who was more of a damsel whiner in Stan Lee's comics.

I never saw Gwen as whiney. They made her the damsel a lot cause she was the girlfriend of the super hero and that was what was expected at the time.

I think had she lived they would've developed her character much further than just being the girlfriend / damsel. They never really had much chance to develop her back story like they did with MJ. Why does she initially act like a typical popular mean girl / ice queen when she is later shown to be much more kind and sensitive? I'm curious as to what they would have revealed about her later on. Maybe they'll show us in her solo series.

Also why does such a pretty girl choose to be a science major instead of just trying to get by with her looks and be a model or star. I'm not a feminist or anything but her character was smart, kind, outspoken, pretty, etc... Maybe she would've turned out to be a scientist or something like Carlie. She would've been perfect for Peter....

@iamre321:

Then I guess we've reached conclusion.

You prefer Gwen, I prefer Mary Jane.

You don't like or feel strongly for Mary Jane, and neither do I for Gwen.

I would even go so far as to say neither of us wants to like the other.

Enjoy the Gwen comic as I enjoy my Mary Jane comic.

@ursaber: The conclusion I reach is that Gwen stans really don't have a single solitary clue in regards to human relationships, how people can change for the worst (Gwen with Osborn and hating Spider-Man), and how others can change and evolve for the better (Mary Jane, going from party girl to partner), more importantly, how your first love isn't always your true love. Debating with these idealist clowns leads nowhere because they are just not open to having their views challenged or changed. They don't want to have their fairy tale world punctured.

Mary Jane fans, and Mary Jane herself, will forever triumph over them though, that's the most comforting thing. Gwen will always be a runner-up and this guy knows it

@zariusii:

@ursaber: Yeah people can like what they like. I hope you can enjoy your MJ comic and I'll enjoy the Gwen one.

@ursaber

Bought this gorgeous Gwen Cover

Got mixed feelings about this. Love the added backstory for Gwen (shes one of my favorite characters) and the development (lol they are making her more proactive lol) and old Spider-man references, and the Nauck art is great as usually.

But I also feel like they got some things wrong. Gwen and Harry are supposed to be the popular kids. Also Gwen's boyfriend before Peter... Ugh....

@iamre321:

not interested

glad you liked it though

gwen is just... fundamentally uninteresting to me

@iamre321: First time I agree with you on about anything to do with Gwen (her boyfriend)

Although it's funny how you say they're making her more proactive NOW...I thought she already had such agency in your opinion? Guess you've come around a bit and realised just how lacking Gwen always was in that department...not that it helps make her interesting presently. Just another layer they added way too late, and long after the horse was out of the stable. Gwen's never gonna catch up to MJ.

@zariusii:Well well well look who it is...

Yes, Gwen's boyfriend doesn't make sense for the comics of her time. I hate it when they retcon stuff to appeal to the SJWs when it doesn't make sense. I'd be like Marvel making Asgard's (a race of blond haired blue eyed gods based on nordic mythology) first hero black... oh wait...

She was a product of her time. They are developing her now more most likely due to the popularity of Spider-Gwen. They are changing her look and personality which was initially ice queen popular girl into the more later Gwen with the classic headband and sweet personality.

Also Gwen was never just a damsel in distress. She was never afraid to stand up for what she believed in, esp when she was standing up for Peter.

@iamre321 said:

@zariusii:Well well well look who it is...

Yes, Gwen's boyfriend doesn't make sense for the comics of her time. I hate it when they retcon stuff to appeal to the SJWs when it doesn't make sense. I'd be like Marvel making Asgard's (a race of blond haired blue eyed gods based on nordic mythology) first hero black... oh wait...

She was a product of her time. They are developing her now more most likely due to the popularity of Spider-Gwen. They are changing her look and personality which was initially ice queen popular girl into the more later Gwen with the classic headband and sweet personality.

Also Gwen was never just a damsel in distress. She was never afraid to stand up for what she believed in, esp when she was standing up for Peter.

If by "of the time" you mean the 60s, I'm calling bull. The medical tech makes no sense for the time period, so the sliding timescale must be in effect; any chance of this being a period piece is out the window. Plus, if she's more proactive than she was before, then she wasn't that proactive. Also, I don't think Gwen dating anybody before Peter is inherently bad but he has zero personality aside from just being there for Gwen to hold hands with. To the point where I didn't even remember his name outside of the tweets that Nuack posted.

@quilsniv: It's just half of my username with a "D" added at the start.

Gwen has no luck with relationships, dates a generic jock, treats Peter like crap a lot of the time in between the odd chance she sticks up for him, and ultimately chooses Osborn to have babies with.

Peter's lucky to have maintained consistently healthy relationships with MJ in light of all this, the sliding timescale means nobody stays distant from him for long....hell, I won't be surprised when the marriage is restored, the general gist will be that it was only gone from Peter and MJ's perspective by a couple of months.

@quilsniv: Yes, it should be the 60s. She is proactive, its just that we didn't see much of it since the story was told from Peter's perspective. We don't know much of what she experienced.

Her dating a football player actually fits her earlier character but actually her dating harry probably would've made more sense. I predict something will go wrong with the boyfriend, maybe he has some sort of secret.

@zariusii: So Gwen starting out being the generic popular girl and dating jocks before she meet Peter is bad , but MJ starting out as the generic popular party girl and then changing after meeting Peter is good? Hypocrite.

Also Gwen never treated Peter like crap, she put up with a lot of his issues. And Sins Past is something that they added later on, forced on by editorial, they were originally supposed to be Peter's kids. Its likely this new story might even retcon Sins Past.

Peter and MJ likely won't get the marriage restored ever. Editorial doesn't like to keep him tied down or aged up. Even if they do it'll likely be a publicity stunt that they will cancel later on.

I wish that Marvel had taken the time to develop Peter's relationship with Bobbi Morse, Jessica Drew, Carol Danvers, Jennifer Walters, and Black Widow in the same manner as Black Cat...Slow development of their friendship over a long period of time. No romance until the friendship with developed. The reason why Peter and MJ works so well is because they started out as friends. Although, I would love to see Peter Parker and Betty Brant get back together again. LOL

Norwen forever

Lol Peter and Betty is long over... But he does well with his female teammates lol- Mockingbird, Spider-woman, Carol (shipped them before they changed her so much) , She-Hulk (was that a thing?) , Widow, Silver Sable, lol...

@zariusii:F*ck you buddy...

I hate the idea of One More Day, but I really believe the idea of Pete divorcing MJ and seeking other relationships with other women is an idea that has not been used to its potential. Would love to see Pete go through different cycles of dating different women. Some could be from his past and some fellowed costumed heroes such as Carol Danvers, Silver Sable and Kitty Pryde. Hell, if you really wanted to stir the pot up and make things interesting for a while, he could have an affair with Sue Storm. The bar has already been dropped with having the character make faustian deals with the devil! =D

@dark-kenshin: Peter cycling through other women never catches because the other interests simply have the chemistry or the meaningful history he has with MJ. They've had ten years to make something different happen, and it just never works. 2018 was the year Marvel admitted defeat and put Peter back with the only woman who ever truly fit him.

Kitty Pryde worked for Ultimate Peter...but she has no history with Mephistoverse Peter.

You'll get no argument from me that MJ is not the woman for Peter. She is and much like Thanos, she is inevitable and is ultimately the only woman for Spidey; that should never change. Tbh, however, I think a huge part of other women failing to catch is simply that the writing and editorial talent at marvel just isn't anywhere near strong or imaginative enough to pull off relationships with different women (which is why we get boring characters like Carlie Cooper, pointless characters like Michelle Gonzalez or bad fanfic inspired smut like Silke), which is why they are forced to go back to MJ when all else fails miserably.

How about a relationship with Silver Sable for example? Although multiple stories have hinted at it, we have never gotten a full on relationship between Peter and Silver. I can think of plenty of stories that could spawn out of the idea of Pete dating a mercenary. Whether it being the hilarious awkwardness of Silver trying to adjust to the mundane life of his civilian alter ego, to the cultural differences the two have to the sheer number of situations of Peter being thrown in international drama due to being involved with a world renowned mercenary. From the panels we've seen of them together, there's lots of untapped chemistry that Marvel is for some reason too afraid (or lazy) to explore. Which is shame because unlike the the lame characters they tried hooking Peter up with, those these two actually have established chemistry.

@skyggen: Thanks my friend, appreciate it. Yeah dealing with this guy was a pain, I just wanted a casual discussion but he's probably the type of guy who spends all day in reddit arguing with people

@zariusii : LMAO SINS PAST RETCONNED SO SMD

@ursaber

@iamre321 said:

@skyggen: Thanks my friend, appreciate it. Yeah dealing with this guy was a pain, I just wanted a casual discussion but he's probably the type of guy who spends all day in reddit arguing with people

@zariusii : LMAO SINS PAST RETCONNED SO SMD

Jokes on you, I don't mind the twist at all, and doesn't change the fact that Peter loves MJ more than Gwen.Try harder. All it really does is make your 'ideal' little Princess uninteresting again.

The fact you're asking me to suck you off also shows the level of decadent and imbecilic immaturity I'm dealing with in this thread, so further advantage goes to me. You do a fine job representing Gwen's cult, I can't fault you for that, rofl.

@zariusii: Ooooo such big words from such a little head