EllieJef2

Definitely agreed

Great contenders. Easy to see why it's between the two. And outside of one's benefit of life vs death personally, neither flawless individuals are getting said "no" to, pretty regardless of most of what could possibly ever be at stake because they're just worth potential damage more than others. They're of literal great value and are just...insanely gorgeous. But see, I voted Dick in final decision, but it is def both. And my stance there is...well, they stand for different kinds of "attractive" and similair but of-different sorts-and-caliber-still 'men' of the overarch.

Two golden, mesmerizing, beauties, artistically and very memorable and noticable for that person already.

So indeed, in different ways, for different reasons the way it goes is: Superman specifcally represents an impressive prime of peak performance and ability in an idealized man. And Dick is...basically all the things most women (and many mlm as well I believe) are most attracted to from more approachable and less intimidating yet fit physicality to traits. Both very appealing and obviously extremely good looking. But they're nearly two sides of the same coin of preferable "Male beauty stabdards" in expectant appearances. Superman is the man's man/men's general view and idea of and towards 'the best about men' virtually and visually to other men themselves platonically and aesthetically. Whereas, Dick is the "women's man" in his confusing-to-many-men way of being this non hyper masculine yet also plently still masculine, lithe, uber confident, charismatic over just charming boyish-meets-clearly-not-a-boy form. Form their personalities to their looks either can and could snag anyone they wanted but for different reasons as I mentioned. There's no way the majority of people attracted to men could really find themselves even feigning admission that they ever reject either and wouldst be eager if anything as they're two machines of men impossible to refuse at least on the temporary level. Everyone is for them. No way they aren't anyone's "type" basically. But essentially they also aren't the exact, same type is the point. But contrary to the popular belief of straight men generally that really dosen't make one better than the other. Women don't perceive Dick as less beautiful nor sexy than Clark/S. But in the eyes of straight men, their perspective only has them seeing (who can win in technical terms/is the best going through the full categolue list of pros and gains) and therefore would choose Clark--because that's who they most rather look like and appreciate most in men. But it doesn't make this some landslide to people actually attracted to men.

But that's just to dig deep. Point being, there's a REASON, NW is one of the most sexualized central male characters in comics and even somewhat objected (it has levels/depends but still definitely happens) ever. If that hadn't yet occured...it's for the sake of his fans attracted to him. The female audience has always been in love with NW because he's so attractive to them inside and out. Super strength and ultimate power doesn't turn women on the way women think. That's more admirable to men. You don't need to be extremely (if at all) dominant to be "stunnign" or even "perfect" to a woman, and that's exactly what NW's hotness represents to attracted-to-males DC fans to the absolute max. The goal of this poll was to decide who wins overall anyway, I know and the reason S got it by a landslide is only because of the male fans here is the thing. I promise you that in adding the fem POV. It's the truth.

But both. Def both. Excellent picks. A sandwich made from the heavens, by God himself. No one is worthy enough to deserve a hand at such a three way though... that's just too much of a dream.

I chose Dick because he's the typical's women's dream guy. Not just above average in every way but unqiue and perfect just about, even as is his very nature. He's stable and able yet unpredictable enough. A self provider and able to extend that to another, enough as need be as connectedly, he is also a caretaker and takes his responsibilities to others/be it they're even more vulnerable or in need or his equal or ABOVE him, very seriously and dedicatedly. He is solo and independent and with his own built in safety net. Giving and fair. Self lead and a leader naturally and automatically. Heroic. For others fiercely. Not afraid of partners/women stronger than him. Offers chances of trust and respect to all if they show just the right amount of an ounce that proves they're worthy of the oppunrity. He values traits vastly different than in himself so long as they're still positive. Is beyond understanding to the point getting what makes people tick is an outright gift of his, among his deductive, detective skills that are firstly of a way of an empathetic categorically, emotional ineptitude and of E-intelligence primarily over just a means-to-an-end or analytical/needed aspect as with Batman for example where it's about what he can use and take away before a way to connect with people hearfully. He's like that because's hes like that and is naturally concerned and considerate. Not just for being about cracking or solving others and breaking their code and being around about their head. That's more why Bruce and Tim are such a way, while no diss to them as they're the most effective detectives in the world for that same reason so it's no flaw--but not as ATTRACTIVE as of an aspect in a partner/lover as with Dick's usage. He is in his element just as much out of costume and knows how to turn off his persona well enough, which is another plus to civilians at least. He offers without expecting payback on default. He is of self success and achievements with an ambitious go-getter drive that doesn't mean stepping on others to get there or coming across the territory of another therefore being moreso self-focus and self-competion that is non toxic. He is complimentary and like all other heroes is of legendary status automatically due to his occupation and accomplishes involved in it and is of upmost importance to people all around for being a saver of the world.

Is easy going. Is very strong and resilient. An Olympic-level powerhouse of a talent. Is an artistic type of athlete as acrobats are of much of the same appeal of dancers and have a best of both worlds aura and air to them as "hot musician meets hot physical man/athlete" and he is one of the best acrobats in the world in fact. He is a stand out in the wake of dysfunctional surroundings and other beings. Is a sentimental entity without being anywhere near weak or sensitive which shows he can always handle himself and balance handling others just as well, about. Is passionate. Has one if not the best body type of men. Is a superior without being a too cocky, show off usually (mostly he'll just pull the stunting tricks on villains and isn't a "Dick" to his equals or admirable or Comrades). And just this whole COMBO. There's not a damn thing wrong with Superman but Dick is just a hinge more closer to us as people and more familiar because of it. Superman is a God among us sort of perfect where Dick is human perfect. Batman reigns with that title but in all the important ways NW is far closer to it. And while it might even be try BM may be the closest to a Man-God possible--Bruce can't compare to Dick to a woman at the end of it all. He's unrelated to this, but still. Dick wins for me and to a lot of us as DC's Top Hot Male. It's not a rude-to-Supes-stomp but they're of different lanes and worlds in this field. Superman is conceptualized "best man ever" and Dick is "fanpick of best man ever."

So that's the thing of it all.

You get my point and fist of the DC Women Fans community at this point I'm sure, so *Pro-Dick rampage/justifying over.*

@fyrsski: Yes, Dick’s a legend. No pretty much agreed here. Not even sure what else to add even though this a nice and interesting forum topic and all. He’s basically just epic and one of the oddest characters to be able to dislike all around. Lol, go Richie ig.

@cap10nate: You pass blame because a legal guardian is responsible for the safety of his ward. And a maniacal, pure evil, murderer is responsible for kidnapping and murder and all his other crimes.

A teenage hero that is tortured and murdered is as much to blame for his criminal manner of suffering and death as a teenage sexual assault victim. They are victims to a high degree. And victims have no place in being blamed. And your arguement is by far the weakest in blaming a cognitively underdeveloped, minor’s impulses leading him along with his sacrificing, naturally selfless while still bold and confident personality and traits as some sort of naturally responsible finger pointer in why he was killed. Batman and Joker have morally and legally broken and in various ways abused children to no lesser degree than at least half of all other Gotham villains.

Bruce is a selfish, manipulative, child collector who has always held the option and accountability to make much better choices in regards to the lives of others—such as those he’s responsible in caring for then he has. He owes it to all his mentees by definition to offer them the freedom and entitlement of safety, and yet outside of defense training has provided the opposite on several occasions. And has lead to more than one of his Bat’s to get sexual assaulted/killed under his watch. He is the second most responsible in Jason Todd’s death after the Joker. And to get even more technical, Alfred is third due to negligence in lack of reporting nor ceasing the actions as he does he have the great social power to persuade Bruce to go against his “collecting” instincts and intuition but he’s instead been mostly highly supportive of those decisions.

Batman finds human lives and souls expandable and only of high worth to him if they choice indirectly or otherwise to remain under his control. It’s creepy and immoral as all hell. What actually sounds right to you in the grand scheme about taking advantage of a teenage boy with no home and grooming him to be like the one before him in a multitude of ways out of self servernecd and anti independence visibility, and dressing him up in bright underwear and spa daze while fighting pedophiles and traffickers, serial killers, street thugs, corrupt or brute super powered dangers, etc? There’s already a risk and off sounding undertone in the attire while having an impressionable young kid/teen go up against these potential nightmares for them who likely find pleasure in the “suit,” but then for them to be face to face and nearly along with multiple times quite easily captured by these freaks alone until Batman rescues them is twisted and unacceptable. Kidnapping and dodging attempted killings numerous times should not be a coming of age expectancy and given just because at 8-13 you “choose” to be a crime fighter and are permissed to be so. Not when a powerful billionaire with literally outwardly connects and networks and resources has the upmost ability to provide you the best life possible. Be it he decided to be your guardian or can send you off to a great and nurturing home. He does neither though. He doesn’t even express decent expressions of love. He replaces and ignores the emotions of the—again, very much not adults he takes in by the pound. That’s disturbing.

There’s a million laws against endangering and neglecting (emotional) minors this way for great reason. Batman’s house is one of glorified child soldiers he later supports if he decides he respects or likes them after pushing them away be it literally kicking them out or drawing them out mentally. The other times, he doesn’t even put in the proper effort to avoid them living alone and unstable before their time. In the context of a non Batman-centric perspective it’s easy to understand how wrong his coldness is and his harmful law breaking and soul crushing. He doesn’t even find therapeutic support to his traumatized son that came back from the dead and immediately experienced well known mind altering side effects from the Lazarus Pit on top of his existing death/post-death lack of healing.

And it’s easy as hell for him to give Jason this treatment. Professional mental health treatment. He just simply doesn’t. Same applies to his ten-thirteen year old born and groomed to be ninja assassin. Damian should definitely be in some sort of counseling and be provided patience and understanding to re-condition his mind and identity but is instead just thrust into a costume that isn’t actually his by originality, like the others. And is trained into a role that Batman fetishes in an idealistic way, that only benefits him most. Your fav superhero is freaky. His implications, decisions, thoughts, verbal expressions, and actions alike.

And there’s no way to spin Todd’s death around on himself because as much as the fact upsets you, he was by definition not responsible for taking caring of himself. And the fact that he died an attempted hero happens to be no small feat. It’s devastingly horrible he was betrayed in such a way by a woman he loved and was ready to go through high lengths for. A woman he owed him the world as much as Batman, his deadbeat birth father, etc. It’s pathetic as hell that the absuive and psychotic anti-villain Talia Al Ghul ended up being his biggest and most relevant via results/progress support system since his time coming back. And then later it’s another unstable, young man his age apart of his community (Roy obviously), and he has trouble helping himself. For those to be his two biggest post-death inspirations and greatest helps speaks volumes on the literal character pov’s of his ‘ex’-family that end up seeming him an enemy in an overly coloring and simplistic way.

It makes sense for Red Hood’s philosophies to clash with Batman’s and even for the fights to occur. But outside of the personas, Jason Todd deserves superior assistance in general. DC has always been known for its theme of tragedy and I’m not whining here for the sake of it and saying you should look at this from an emotional lense. Only that, the callous reverse psychology into making JT as some problem child turned monster by the man and ADULT he trusted most is clearly not okay. And no biases should get in the way of that even if you fairly enough dislike the character or prefer Batman.

From and outside context, nothing about the situation sounds right. And just weighing the cons vs pros in being a ward of Batman especially, Jason always had the short stick. And I’ve appreciate you arguing how he didn’t based on the canon evidence from his arrival down to his disattachment.

**

I also find it very, severely, ironic how unfamiliar and over the top Hood was treated and beaten by Batman in the August ‘18 issue, mostly due out of anger and despair and hurt feelings of Catwoman leaving him at the altar (though she funnily enough gave him a much better and more sensitive and careful letter then the “you’re my greatest FAILURE” voicemail he left to RH). And how it ends up even being acknowledged in the comics it was such an horrible knock down that it was worse than he ever hit the Joker in history (it’s actually admitted right on the page). And that is obviously a horrible thing for a Joker victim to experience from a hero and man they love in itself. But then the justification ending up being that Hood shot a criminal villian on television being the last straw for Batman. Though he knows all his other enemies have done far worse and he used half the force as he did on his ex-son. But Batman fans defend it by appealing to the “keep in mind his emotions are running high” argument simply due to him being heartbroken and seeing his philosophy get trampled on by an ex-mentee he no longer even bears relation to. Yet somehow, by some stretch of the imagination the Batman fanatics actually find the arguable flaws of the mentally ill and several times over betrayed, much younger, and less privileged and cared for Hood to be more concerning and in the wrong for his hatred of Batman (that the fans call “blind” and “fallable”), and his activities as anti-hero. And even find Todd should be grateful Batman previously didn’t use his full force on him.

But Batman being more cruel than Hood has ever been to him and dragging him to actual blood trails like a rag doll or bag of trash is given a pass because of the same level—if not higher, of emotion displayed and at root than Hood’s is deemed an considerate enough excuse for this behavior.

Hood is torn apart by his ‘haters’ for his actions being to emotion-based or blatant and fueled by by emotional needs as much as it is his personal philosophy of what he considers neccessary and he does stick to a code with limits of his own. Yet, again, this EXACT SAME DISPLAY is used against him in his own comic by Batman and Batman gets treated with tea sized gloves by the fans that Jason Todd never even received as child Robin where he was despised out of pettiness and a lack of recognition of how his background drove him to be something Dick wasn’t due to an imbalance of knowledge in self handling and of others...because he was obviously a boy who unfairly had to live on the streets and take care of his drug addicted mother by chance and unluck alone.

His ‘haters’ didn’t care that the deck was never in his favor and blamed him before attempting to understand him and give him the chance of development opportunities as they did with Tim quite easily, and Batgirl 1&2 (Babs and Cass). And then while Hood gained way more fans than he had before the view still didn’t tilt much when it comes to his original complaints as a character and his motivations. But somehow, even when his behavior is identical the beloved Batman can commit no wrong the eyes of ComicVine, at all whatsoever.

From a typical view of judging character actions in a just and even-minded way, the passes don’t make sense. The only explanation is the rights and abilities to be granted unlimited ‘freebies’ by fans alone since fans will always tip the flawed behavior in the characters favor, or even just not care and pick and choose what they ignore at such times. Which is incorrect and disallowed practically in making a stated argument against another in universe character. Nonetheless, in their own story.

It lacks logic and empathy for other characters in equal measure.

Batman fans share his perspective and it’s odd because he’s such a purposely unrelatable entity by design whereas the rest of the Batman is a less self-centered and more talented and skillful version of us. They represent the center of the Bat vision of hope for their crime ridden environments they fight against. But Batman doesn’t just have more love and fans in response, but an inconsistent and hypocritical defense squad. The only mechanisms people will ever fault Batman for using is his tears. That’s his main complaint in recent times as a character.

And it very much explains where the wild ideas of how 19 year old’s with nightly flashbacks and practice intensive self preservation and carry out their own version of protecting other innocents out of necessity and concern makes them a lesser person and more fault-able character than the highly selfish and self serving and bizarre sort of vigilante (a stand out in the DC superhero universe), of Batman.

It’s accurately “ass backwards” in its finest use, that applies here.

Everyone’s definitely entitled to have their favorites in least favorites in a basic way but to overly embrace one and attack or downplay the strengths or gifts and positives of another requires excellent execution and listed factual attributes even within a bias narrative, to even work argument or debate-wise.

@zdaybreak: That’s direct victim blaming. If the Joker had raped him after he choose to go there and save his mother, you wouldn’t make the claim that the heroic teenage boy is to blame for his murder and post-trauma. And Bruce is second to blame after Joker for committing the serious legal and moral crime of child endangerment. And that man lives and breathes that crime and has since the first day he took Robin out with him on patrol. The dead child who died a torturous, heinous, sickening death in a brutal way mentally, emotionally, and physically is not to blame. Put this in the context of real life and you’d recognize easily how stunted that sounds. Stop worshipping your beloved hero for five minutes and actually consider just an ounce of the terrible things he does from not his perspective but of others—those he has harmed, which would be literally everyone he’s trained, all of whom were impressionable, isolated, in self reliable, children/minors. Batman is messy and crazy and always has been however badass you find him. And he has the emotional tools of an infant bat quite literally to be frank.