Sterling Gates joins the Comic Vine podcast this week. Along with talk about Hawk & Dove and Captain Victory, Tony, Sara and Corey also talk about this week's book and comic news.
Sterling Gates on DC continuity is what many readers need to keep in mind I am seeing to many reviews of people getting upset over what may or may not have happened rather than just talking about the actual comic books. And let's be honest no one cares about Tony Daniel's plot points.
I think I've seen some of the jerks on the DC Message Boards who did troll on the Supergirl books because of shorts.
Damian did have problems with Bruce in Batman The Return he is in a new dynamic duo and has to start at square one.
In Doctor's Wife episode of Doctor Who it is mentioned that the Time Lords can regenerate into female forms if they were males.
the podcast needs more cursing. just my opinion. I like Gates discussion on continuity. I did make @deadpool754 just to send messages to people telling them they don't suck
@sterlinggates: thank you sir, that means a lot especially since there have been so many great Deadpool754s throughout time and space :). I just wish you guys had said a character I actually read haha.
I'm always up for a fun read. It's one of the reasons why I love One Piece. It not only has a great deep story, moving drama, but it can make you laugh and lift you up.
Bruce has been in his early thirties for decades.
Twitter has been sort of a double-edge sword for me (I swear, I typed this before you said it in the podcast, Sara). It's great the level of communication you can have with it. But I've also accidentally put my foot in my mouth with it and unintentionally offended some people. I'm trying to pull back on that sort of thing. I honestly feel really bad if I've offended someone on Twitter.
I've never listened to the Tested podcast. Part of me kind of regrets using my FoxxFireArt name for my handle on the Whiskey Media sites. Since I'm so active in on Anime Vice to the point of writing news articles and editorials. My PS3 handle is much closer to my real name. I don't like what Joe Quesada has done with Spider-man, but I've never wished a hair to be harmed on his head. Disagreeing with someone on an issue is one thing, but wishing violence against someone is just wrong.
I will find it very easy to forget there is continuity in DC. DC and Marvel haven't had that in decades. Though, I will say that DC has been much better about it than Marvel. I'm really feeling that I want to start telling people that if they are so strongly attached to continuity that they should stop with comics and go with manga. Manga will have continuity. Comics just can't have that same level, because you have so many authors on one comic. They can't have perfect knowledge of every event in a comic that came before them. I'm a reader who likes continuity a lot. It irritates the hell out of me to enjoy a story that hints at something to the future. It makes me look forward to what will happen, but never goes anywhere. It's because the writer changes. I'm never going to get closure on my anticipation, and that's so disheartening.
That said, I don't see a problem with Action Comics taking place so many years before the other series. My issue is more about the idea feeling more like Smallville, and the t-shirt with blue jeans outfit looks silly.
I agree about Cassandra!! She's freakin' cool. She deserves a spot, and I want to know what is happening with her since the whole Batgirl thing has been rewritten. Where does she fit into the Bat-Family? So much of her growth came out of being Batgirl. It's bad enough she was so diminished during the Bruce Wayne: The Road Home stories. This is getting ridiculous. I thought she was pretty popular. I could be patient if I felt they are just building up to something, but I really doubt they are.
I think one of the most ridiculous sexually exploitative female costumes I can remember would have to be that one for Sue Storm. The one with the 4 cut-out on her cleavage. That look always reminded me of "Basis Instinct" Sharon Stone for some reason.
I was shocked when I was at the store today and looking in the DVD section. I saw the DVD boxset for Birds of Prey in the TV section. I didn't even know they made enough episodes for a box set.
The internet talk reminds me of Clerks II where Randal talks about how he likes to go online and just bash this guy just because he can, because its the internet and no one knows who he is. He, I think, even says things that he may not actually believe just because he can get away with it. The internet can be a mean thing. I try not to say anything bad about anyone just because, but also I wouldn't want it to be traced back to me somehow. I don't use my real name because I don't want people who I don't know to know anything about me, so I use my company's name. Unless you are someone that other people already know, like an actor or a writer, it just feels like a vanity plate that says your name. Now everyone who passes your car knows that "Alicia" or something drives this car, even strangers Alicia doesn't know.
Another thing that struck me is that once you reach a certain level of popularity you will get detractors, Bandis has them, Liefield has them, Alex Ross has them, Mike Allred has them, everyone. Sure you cannot please everyone all the time, but sometimes people just don't like something because others like it or they judge it without really looking at it. Make assumptions.
I once heard that comic artists shouldn't have video games because it will eat up your time, so I don't play video games. My brother does. And occasionally when we are hanging out he'll ask me to play and after a short time my hand, or arm... I don't remember, will be sore from playing and I can't draw for a while. So I have learned not to do that.
I understand that these stories are fresh and new, and everyone should give them a chance. I agree. I loved Action Comics, I got Swamp Thing, and will get Superman, and want to get Batman and Nightwing. But my problem isn't the continuity, its the loss of history of the characters. Loosing the stories I have loved. The reason I got into comics and continue to read them is because of history. Comics builds on this history. Thats why people keep buying Spider-Man for years. The idea that suddenly the slate is wiped clean and we shouldn't expect anything is something I don't care for. So I got JLI #1, and it sort of talks about this likes its new and never done before. So does that mean that the Giffen Maguire JLI never happened? Does this mean that Blue Beetle and Booster were never friends? Or that Ted Kord never existed at all? So I guess continuity is sort of important, to me anyway. The entire time I read a comic I don't want to be wondering if this or that happened, like Was there a JLI before this? Were Booster and Beetle friends? etc. I also loved the rich history of some of the characters, like how Kord got the mantel from his friend who used the scarab to be Blue Beetle, but was killed fighting bad guys. Kord promised to be the Blue Beetle, but could never make the scarab work for him. I like that. But if the slate is wiped clean that means there were no other Blue Beetles before the current one. I think DC should just come out and say in each instance of the new 52 comics what has changed and what has stayed from the past comics. Like how Snyder mentioned that all of the Batman stories happened, or how Gates mentioned how Hawk and Dove stories happened just not the Monarch stuff. Or how in Spider-Man they mentioned that all the stories prior to One More Day happened, just without MJ as part of it. If DC did this, instead of keeping things so mysterious, fans might be more relaxed and not so worried. I read about a study that claims people like knowing the ending, so if people knew that JLI is totally new and not related to the past stories and not to expect any connection, then fans might be OK with that.
I just read a comic by Allred about Batman having to adjust to the darker times and forget his campyness and become as dark as the criminals he fights. Reminded me of this talk. Batman started out as a gun toting pulpish vigilante, was changed to a campy superhero, then changed back to a dark vigilante. (Francis Manapul posted fan letters from the 80s about DC's revamping relaunch back them. Fans were up in arms about how they wrongly changed Batman in Frank Miller's year One. How dare they!)
I think the reason, maybe that Aunt May is going to Mentor the new Spider-Man is not because she knew he was Spider-Man or she knows how to fight or has powers, but (I think) because Peter was the man he was because of her and Uncle Ben. She is not training him to be a good fighter, but a good hero like Peter was. She will teach him lessons of Uncle Ben. How with great power comes great responsibility. Maybe now Spider-Man will know that without having to loose someone he loves to figure it out. So I like that idea a lot. She also wants to make sure that the kid who takes the name, and the place, of Spider-Man (a mantel created by her nephew) is worthy of being Spider-Man and doesn't discredit her nephew's legacy. I like that too. She has a personal stake in it. I would still like to see Captain America and Nick Fury step in too and train him in combat, Cap could do it because Spider-man died saving his life.
A female Doctor Who would be fun, and a male companion. I also would love to see alien companions too, not just humans. They mentioned in past episodes how he would travel with an entourage of humans and aliens and robots. I would like to see that. Also a switch from white Doctors would be cool too.
I think commercials would be AWESOME for comics. DC could advertise all the time on Cartoon Network, at kids, and apparently on BBC. Marvel could advertise on Disney XD and the Disney channel (and before Disney movies in theaters). That would be awesome. Back when the Tick cartoon was starting I saw a commercial that showed the comic, it was like the Tick #5 or something (Tick was wearing a Tux and holding a wounded Oedipus, and the BG was split into several skinny panels). That commercial made me go out in search of the comic, but the store near me had no clue what the Tick was, so I thought I had imagined the commercial. The point is that the commercial worked on me, I loved the cartoon and wanted to get the comic. Imagine kids watching cartoons, like Johnny Test or The Avengers or Young Justice or whatever, and seeing a commercial (like those animated comic trailers). They would run out and buy stuff. the Disney stores should even sell Rated E Marvel comics.
I mean, one of the hardest things seems to be to get people to go get a comic, or to know they exist. The commercials would help.
OH MY GOSH! I would never have a lack of something on TV! I could just put the TV to the Simpsons channel and never turn it ever and just have the Simpsons playing all the time while I work.
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! made it all the way through! SO PROUD OF MYSELF!
Im not a fan of Leifield but I think his art kind of worked. I loved Hawk and Dove. And I really wasn't expecting to. You guys are talking as if people hate him. I hope you guys know that he has a huge following. He is THE 90s artist. When I think 90s I think Jim Lee and Rob Leifield.
I haven't read much of the Superman side of the DCU pre Flashpoint so I don't really know much of Sterling Gates' work but I'm interested. Also pretty interested in his Kirby work.
I like Sterling. Recently, Kid Flash Lost was one of the minis that I really enjoyed, and War of the Supermen was also really good for me. I liked the writing more than I did the art for Hawk and Dove #1, but the art isn't terrible. There's a lot of people showing off their teeth though. Anyway, I don't see myself as a fan of Hawk and Dove as characters. If I stick with the series for a few issues, and Sterling Gates can convince me as to why I should care about these characters, then great. I'll definitely give it a try.
So glad Tony and Sara didn't give him a pass on brushing off continuity. It seemed that Sterling doesn't quite understand what makes comics so different than most other mediums. Continuity and history does matter. And I thought that Flashpoint was a good transition. But Sterling asks "who cares" or "why does it matter"? He asks why do comic readers think the way we do? It's simple. Comics are different and continuity matters.
Holy cow, everyone is so wrapped up in continuity. They're just stories! The only continuity you should be concerned with, is the continuity of single books and cross-overs. If we had a single, perfect continuity, each character would only be able to have one book. I've never cared about all these timelines, and it has made the stories so much more enjoyable!
@keith71_98: Glad you made it through the "potty mouth" moniker to actually listen to the podcast, Keith! As you heard, I was very apologetic the first time I swore, and then everyone gave me the O.K. to speak freely. And it's okay if you think a book is "terrible," there's no need to amend your past posts.
As for continuity, I think you're misreading (mishearing?) what I was saying.
I've found my comic-reading friends can't come to the New 52 books and read them without the pressure of figuring out "the continuity" of which day each book takes place on. They're overwhelmed/crippled by trying to piece together what year characters were in from issue-to-issue, rather than reading a story and enjoying it for what it is. The perfect example is Superman. THREE of my friends had a huge argument in front of me trying to figure out when Action Comics took place in relation to Justice League, rather than actually looking at the book for the story. When I asked them what they thought about the writing, the art, etc, they gave me blank looks. Clicking around on the Internet, I've found much of the same reaction, and it makes me worry fans are so focused on the "continuity" of matters that they're having some trouble reading these books without trying to dissect the "when" of them all.
Yes, continuity is important in a shared comic book universe, but when the continuity becomes a crutch for actual storytelling, it's detrimental to both the story you're reading and the industry as a whole. Storytelling is meant to be an emotional endeavor, each story designed to have an emotional climax for the protagonist and resonance within the reader. I've spent a LONG TIME working in continuity (I was the one responsible for a lot of that stuff during New Krypton, figuring out when Supergirl or Superman was off/on-planet, etc), and I've found it offers a lot of rewards along with the headaches. When someone says they like Adventure Comics #1 not because of Conner's struggle to do what's right but because Superboy has his old "Reign of the Supermen" jacket hanging in his room in Smallville, though, they're missing the POINT of the story, missing the emotional value of the unfolding narrative. Sure, we all get little thrills from references we "get," but the resonance in living out events through the characters is what matters in the end. I LOVED hearing the Nimon referenced in last weekend's Doctor Who episode, but at no point did I think that was what was important about that story. I worry some fans do that. Hell, I've done it before, and I've had to un-train myself the last few years.
I've been trying to keep my recent work fairly clean, too, so that anyone can come into it on any issue (hence the long exposition-tastic flashback sequence in H&D #1). I wrote that flashback fairly heavy-handed so that even my mother (who doesn't read comics) could pick up issue one and still feel like she got to know these characters and what brought them to where they are today. I won't go that heavy-handed with H&D again, nor will I need to. It felt like a necessary decision to make at the time, and now anyone who reads issue one knows Hawk & Dove's origin story. ANYONE. It seemed important to me to design these relaunched books to be as "new reader friendly" and as basic as possible, but I've found some old school readers (yes, I'm making a generalization here, and no, I don't mean everyone) have had trouble with that idea, worrying about "what happened and when did it happen before" rather than reading the story presented. It drives me nuts, because it undermines *everything* creators are doing in these comics.
I'm positive the story of when Superman put on the new costume will come along, but if *that's* the only thing you're focused on while reading Action Comics, you're missing a great story because of "the continuity of it."
That's what I meant, re: continuity. As someone who's worked in comics in both the retail and creative sides for twenty-two years, I've had a LOT of time to think about in-story continuity and its effect on shared universe comics.
Hope that clarifies my comments to some degree. If not, lemme know, I can always try to make myself more clear.
@sterlinggates: First off, I appreciate you actually taking time to address my opinion. It makes me feel as if it matters to you. Also, I FEEL it was important to amend my post. You made an interesting point on the podcast about people making random criticisms without providing any basis for them (on Twitter). My post provided no reason for my views and for an opinion that strong, I should have at least provided a link to my Comic Vine review. It wasn't really fair in my opinion. That's why I changed it.
As for continuity, I'm one of those old school comics readers. Been reading for about 30 years and first got into comics after finding some of my uncle's old books at my grandmother's house (Sad Sack, Spectre, Detective Comics). So I've walked through a lot of continuity as well. It seemed as though you were saying that the past continuity simply didn't matter. I think in a very real respect it does matter and it must matter. Granted, the New 52 is meant to be a new start with a new continuity but it's using characters created and made popular in the past. So naturally we as readers (especially older readers) are going to be attached to these characters in a way that makes in almost impossible to seperate them from how we came to know them.
Now, that being said, I think DC did a great job with Flashpoint. It basically said that the old continuity did happen and it did count but it's confined to the old time line prior to the events of Flashpoint. Since that's the case it's easy for me to seperate the pre-Flashpoint continuity with the New 52 continuity. That's probably why I'm loving the idea so much. But as it moves forward, I'm probably going to look at it with New 52 continuity in mind. Again, comics are cool that way. It's a Universe that builds upon itself week after week. I don't need for every little detail to match up but it gives comics that bit of uniqueness that makes it such a different medium.
Again I appreciate the clarity. There is an almost anti-continuity movement in comics that has really showed itself particularly in the "comics are too complicated for new readers" camp. It really sounded like that was your position especially when Tony would mention something (from a continuity perspective) and you would ask him why it was so important or why it mattered. I get a better feel of your position now.
By the way, I'm not a stranger to your work. I would have never became a Supergirl fan if it wasn't for your run on the book. Just throwing that out there.
I frankly agree with Sterling about the continuity thing. It doesn't matter. Needing every bit of information handed to you like some goddamn appendices makes for some REALLY restrictive writing. Do you watch every movie and need to know every bit about these characters' histories before the plot actually starts? Can you not watch Lord of the Rings because they never explain how Aragorn and Gandalf know eachother? Can you not watch The Matrix because they never explain how Trinity joined up with Morpheus? Good storytelling will develop those details over time when they are relevant. They don't need to hand you a goddamn appendices before you start reading. Stop with the desperation to hold onto this continuity thing. Appealing to that mentality is just going to put DC back to square-one before the reboot.
so wait... its cool for the Doctor to be played by someone that's not English (and maybe a woman) but you guys cringe at Donald Glover being Peter Parker.... I don't get it.
@keith71_98: Glad you made it through the "potty mouth" moniker to actually listen to the podcast, Keith! As you heard, I was very apologetic the first time I swore, and then everyone gave me the O.K. to speak freely. And it's okay if you think a book is "terrible," there's no need to amend your past posts.
As for continuity, I think you're misreading (mishearing?) what I was saying.
I've found my comic-reading friends can't come to the New 52 books and read them without the pressure of figuring out "the continuity" of which day each book takes place on. They're overwhelmed/crippled by trying to piece together what year characters were in from issue-to-issue, rather than reading a story and enjoying it for what it is. The perfect example is Superman. THREE of my friends had a huge argument in front of me trying to figure out when Action Comics took place in relation to Justice League, rather than actually looking at the book for the story. When I asked them what they thought about the writing, the art, etc, they gave me blank looks. Clicking around on the Internet, I've found much of the same reaction, and it makes me worry fans are so focused on the "continuity" of matters that they're having some trouble reading these books without trying to dissect the "when" of them all.
Yes, continuity is important in a shared comic book universe, but when the continuity becomes a crutch for actual storytelling, it's detrimental to both the story you're reading and the industry as a whole. Storytelling is meant to be an emotional endeavor, each story designed to have an emotional climax for the protagonist and resonance within the reader. I've spent a LONG TIME working in continuity (I was the one responsible for a lot of that stuff during New Krypton, figuring out when Supergirl or Superman was off/on-planet, etc), and I've found it offers a lot of rewards along with the headaches. When someone says they like Adventure Comics #1 not because of Conner's struggle to do what's right but because Superboy has his old "Reign of the Supermen" jacket hanging in his room in Smallville, though, they're missing the POINT of the story, missing the emotional value of the unfolding narrative. Sure, we all get little thrills from references we "get," but the resonance in living out events through the characters is what matters in the end. I LOVED hearing the Nimon referenced in last weekend's Doctor Who episode, but at no point did I think that was what was important about that story. I worry some fans do that. Hell, I've done it before, and I've had to un-train myself the last few years.
I've been trying to keep my recent work fairly clean, too, so that anyone can come into it on any issue (hence the long exposition-tastic flashback sequence in H&D #1). I wrote that flashback fairly heavy-handed so that even my mother (who doesn't read comics) could pick up issue one and still feel like she got to know these characters and what brought them to where they are today. I won't go that heavy-handed with H&D again, nor will I need to. It felt like a necessary decision to make at the time, and now anyone who reads issue one knows Hawk & Dove's origin story. ANYONE. It seemed important to me to design these relaunched books to be as "new reader friendly" and as basic as possible, but I've found some old school readers (yes, I'm making a generalization here, and no, I don't mean everyone) have had trouble with that idea, worrying about "what happened and when did it happen before" rather than reading the story presented. It drives me nuts, because it undermines *everything* creators are doing in these comics.
I'm positive the story of when Superman put on the new costume will come along, but if *that's* the only thing you're focused on while reading Action Comics, you're missing a great story because of "the continuity of it."
That's what I meant, re: continuity. As someone who's worked in comics in both the retail and creative sides for twenty-two years, I've had a LOT of time to think about in-story continuity and its effect on shared universe comics.
Hope that clarifies my comments to some degree. If not, lemme know, I can always try to make myself more clear.
Fan boys are stubborn. They're going to think the way they want no matter how much you try to argue your point. Or "make yourself clear".
Now, that being said, I think DC did a great job with Flashpoint. It basically said that the old continuity did happen and it did count but it's confined to the old time line prior to the events of Flashpoint. Since that's the case it's easy for me to seperate the pre-Flashpoint continuity with the New 52 continuity. That's probably why I'm loving the idea so much. But as it moves forward, I'm probably going to look at it with New 52 continuity in mind.
I think maybe that should be mentioned on the first page or something on these New 52 books for a while. I didn't read Flashpoint so I didn't know. This might also help people feel better about the New 52.
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