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#1 Posted by Bezza (3869 posts) - - Show Bio

...Can anyone explain why WW did so badly against Doomsday in the Hunter Prey arc? I mean in fairness the whole JL got wooped, but WW in particular seemed ineffective, barely landed a punch.

#2 Posted by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

easy. machismo. it's always been the disease that incapacitates Wonder Woman

#3 Posted by Bezza (3869 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizoom:

fair points, there seem to be no logical explanations for her inept fighting style in their encounter.

#4 Posted by PapiNacho (3232 posts) - - Show Bio

Well Superman had to be the hero, so of course everyone else had to look bad.

#5 Posted by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

Its the position DC has Superman in vs the position Superman is to the fans. The best example of this is strangely enough, the Justice league: Unlimited episode Destroyer. Everyone is at the ends of their ropes and Darkseid is about to win. Then suddenly, Superman gives this speech about how ALL THE TIME he has to hold back, even when fighting his usual rogues, but Darkseid can handle his full strength. He then actually womps on Darkseid pretty good.

What it comes down to is day to day Superman is holding back. The reason he looks roughly in the same league as his peers is that he is holding back. But then these impossible to defeat enemies pop up, Imperiex, Doomsday, Darkseid, and Superman is THE ONLY who can stand toe to toe with them. They can defeat the entire rest of the League, and Superman can fight them alone. This shows that DC holds to the "World of Cardboard" speech and see Superman as the absolute top of the JLA, just holding back all day everyday. And it shouldnt be all that surprising because writers are constantly having characters comment about Superman being the most powerful being on Earth. We see it even in the New 52, where he easily handles Hal, Flash, and Bruce. Where, at the start of Trinity War, he literally knocks down ALL THE TEAMS while fighting Martian Manhunter.

The reason we as fans dont accept this, is because we are VERY concerned with Continuity (and other reason like the fact we all have our own favorite characters). And what continuity has to do with it is this: We take all the showings, and make our average, non-pis versions of the character, so the moments where he goes so far beyond normal level, IT BECOMES THE ABERRATION. We call it PIS.

This is my out-of-universe take.

#6 Posted by marvel123 (377 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: @bezza: Hey, at least she gave darksied a beatdown in the justice league war movie. superman got ko'd for practically the entire battle and it seemed like WW was more effective against darksied than any of the other characters.............i know it's off topic, but hopefully u feel a lil better knowing that she can hold her own against a big villain on the big screen.

#7 Posted by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: @bezza: Hey, at least she gave darksied a beatdown in the justice league war movie. superman got ko'd for practically the entire battle and it seemed like WW was more effective against darksied than any of the other characters.............i know it's off topic, but hopefully u feel a lil better knowing that she can hold her own against a big villain on the big screen.

She was so incredibly cool in that it wasnt even funny. The only person who was shat upon was GL, but it was due to his arrogance.

#8 Posted by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: Well if Superman is intended to be so uniquely powerful then he shouldn't be in the Justice League because it's seriously gotten to the point where he's just cannibalizing other characters. I don't get this seemingly obsessive need to create insurmountable hierarchies. I immediately gave up on Naruto as soon as the gap between the genetically endowed characters and the ordinary ones became unbridgeable.

#9 Posted by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: Well if Superman is intended to be so uniquely powerful then he shouldn't be in the Justice League because it's seriously gotten to the point where he's just cannibalizing other characters. I don't get this seemingly obsessive need to create insurmountable hierarchies. I immediately gave up on Naruto as soon as the gap between the genetically endowed characters and the ordinary ones became unbridgeable.

it may surprise you, but I agree. I would pull Supes and Batman out of the JLA, as they both hold the team back in different ways. DC would probably do it too, but sadly the sales would plummet.

#10 Edited by Dernman (15813 posts) - - Show Bio

Because Doomsday>>>Superman>>Wonder Woman.

#11 Posted by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

it may surprise you, but I agree. I would pull Supes and Batman out of the JLA, as they both hold the team back in different ways. DC would probably do it too, but sadly the sales would plummet.

all Superman needs is a depowerement. He can still be the strongest hero in the DCU without being put in a pedestal, far far up in the sky

#12 Posted by WonderWomanFan8 (219 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo said:

it may surprise you, but I agree. I would pull Supes and Batman out of the JLA, as they both hold the team back in different ways. DC would probably do it too, but sadly the sales would plummet.

all Superman needs is a depowerement. He can still be the strongest hero in the DCU without being put in a pedestal, far far up in the sky

I agree. He's way too powerful. He either needs more weaknesses, or a complete power down.

#13 Edited by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizoom said:
@deaditegonzo said:

it may surprise you, but I agree. I would pull Supes and Batman out of the JLA, as they both hold the team back in different ways. DC would probably do it too, but sadly the sales would plummet.

all Superman needs is a depowerement. He can still be the strongest hero in the DCU without being put in a pedestal, far far up in the sky

I agree. He's way too powerful. He either needs more weaknesses, or a complete power down.

I disagree. I say, have him stop holding back so much, but distance him from the other heroes. It's silly to weaken a character for other characters. Just have Supes not get involved with them as much. I'd add, that personally, i'd amp Wonder Woman.

#14 Posted by WonderWomanFan8 (219 posts) - - Show Bio

@wonderwomanfan8 said:

@archizoom said:
@deaditegonzo said:

it may surprise you, but I agree. I would pull Supes and Batman out of the JLA, as they both hold the team back in different ways. DC would probably do it too, but sadly the sales would plummet.

all Superman needs is a depowerement. He can still be the strongest hero in the DCU without being put in a pedestal, far far up in the sky

I agree. He's way too powerful. He either needs more weaknesses, or a complete power down.

I disagree. I say, have him stop holding back so much, but distance him from the other heroes. It's silly to weaken a character for other characters. Just have Supes not get involved with them as much. I'd add, that personally, i'd amp Wonder Woman.

OR, like someone said (IDK who) take him off the team, why have him on there if his strength eclipses the others so much?

#15 Posted by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

OR, like someone said (IDK who) take him off the team, why have him on there if his strength eclipses the others so much?

Exactly, Superman's hurting their image.

I disagree. I say, have him stop holding back so much, but distance him from the other heroes. It's silly to weaken a character for other characters. Just have Supes not get involved with them as much. I'd add, that personally, i'd amp Wonder Woman.

Its sillier and frankly bad for business and for Superman himself to let him cannibalize other characters. The Justice League, at this point, look like a bunch of losers and that obviously doesn't sit right with us.

#16 Posted by r2datu (720 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizoom said:
@deaditegonzo said:

it may surprise you, but I agree. I would pull Supes and Batman out of the JLA, as they both hold the team back in different ways. DC would probably do it too, but sadly the sales would plummet.

all Superman needs is a depowerement. He can still be the strongest hero in the DCU without being put in a pedestal, far far up in the sky

I agree. He's way too powerful. He either needs more weaknesses, or a complete power down.

Not really, he has the most numerous and exploitable weaknesses in comics. Magic + kryptonite + red sun radiation.

#17 Edited by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

@r2datu: magic and psionics are not weaknesses to Superman per se. He's just susceptible like everyone else

#18 Posted by PowerWoman (3576 posts) - - Show Bio

Why you creater this thread?

Pre-52 or New 52 wonder woman get destroyed by doomsday,and easy

#19 Edited by PowerWoman (3576 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: i almost forgot,in the Pre-crisis,superman and Supergirl both beat JLA with easily

#20 Posted by WonderWomanFan8 (219 posts) - - Show Bio

@r2datu said:

@wonderwomanfan8 said:

@archizoom said:
@deaditegonzo said:

it may surprise you, but I agree. I would pull Supes and Batman out of the JLA, as they both hold the team back in different ways. DC would probably do it too, but sadly the sales would plummet.

all Superman needs is a depowerement. He can still be the strongest hero in the DCU without being put in a pedestal, far far up in the sky

I agree. He's way too powerful. He either needs more weaknesses, or a complete power down.

Not really, he has the most numerous and exploitable weaknesses in comics. Magic + kryptonite + red sun radiation.

That doesn't mean diddly when he's provided with the most instances of him overcoming his weakness to the point where, they don't even seem like weakness, but mild annoyances. Supes needs a super power downgrade.

#21 Posted by marvel123 (377 posts) - - Show Bio
#22 Posted by Johnni_Kun (289 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizoom: Well if Superman is intended to be so uniquely powerful then he shouldn't be in the Justice League because it's seriously gotten to the point where he's just cannibalizing other characters.

Well, he's not anymore. Praise Luthor! Time for Wondy and Billy to shine!

Our savior

*Psssst* I actually really like Superman, it's just I prefer him solo.(like how some people hate Batman with a partner.)

#23 Posted by WonderWomanFan8 (219 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think that video counts, the title is misleading. It wasn't just Wonder Woman vs Darkseid one on one. She had help from Green Lantern, Captain Marvel, Flash, etc, so that clip IMO doesn't do her justice of her handling things on her own.

This is inconsistent with what I've seen in Justice League (referring to the cartoon). What's the point of having a character like Superman on the Justice League, when not only does he seem to dwarf his team mates substantially in raw power and endurance/durability,but it's also implied that he's powerful enough to handle all Earthly threats on his own, simply because he's always "holding back"? The main reason why Superman formed the Justice League is because he acknowledged the fact that he couldn't protect Earth by himself. But then he goes against that claim, to overstep and over-protect his team mates in battle on occasion because in the back of his mind he knows he can take more than they can because they're "not cut out for that".

If there was ever a time for Superman to NOT hold back his strength, then it should've been during the alien invasion of Earth. If Superman needed help to fight the invasion, but then by the end of the series, can all of a sudden, singlehandedly take on a hybrid of Darkseid and Braniac because he's been "holding back" all along, I'm more likely to believe he's just not as powerful as people want us to think he is, or that's just bad, inconsistent writing.

#24 Posted by PowerWoman (3576 posts) - - Show Bio

@marvel123: No,wonder woman always get destroyed by Doomsday,No matter it's Pre-52 or New 52

Superman always can toe with toe fight doomsday

#25 Posted by RustyRoy (14037 posts) - - Show Bio

PIS

#26 Edited by The_Titan_Lord (7084 posts) - - Show Bio

DD.

#27 Edited by WonderWomanFan8 (219 posts) - - Show Bio

@powerwoman Is that right? Well, Superman sure seemed to struggle against Doomsday in Justice League. He was getting beaten up really badly, and had to resort to lobotomizing him in order to stop him. But he can't be beaten in the same way twice, now can he?

Oh, and powergirl and supergirl are kryptonian, so they need a massive power reduction as well!

#28 Posted by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@marvel123: I feel like Batman keeps all the other leaguers from realizing their full potentials with his presence, because a lot of them would make him seem useless by comparison. Essentially, from a plot standpoint, I dont think he adds any aspect to the team other than cold rationality.

Without him, Cyborg is fully capable of doing all the tech stuff. Without him, Firestorm is totally capable of doing the science-y stuff. Without him, there are plenty of candidates for leader, not the least of which being Diana and Hal. Without him, Diana could easily become the combat specialist. But because he is there, he has to step in all of their territories and even show them up at their own specialties.

#29 Posted by PowerWoman (3576 posts) - - Show Bio

@wonderwomanfan8: Supergirl always crazy powerful just like superman in the Pre-crisis(like moving planets)

Powergirl only have half strength in the Post-crisis

Of couse,since post-crisis,wonder woman get much more powerful than before,it's look like wonder woman>supergirl

But in history?No,the most strongest female it's Mary Marvel and Supergirl

#30 Posted by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

@johnni_kun: I think we can have Superman in the Justice League without having him eclipse, shame and dwarf his teammates constantly. While everybody's powers seem to have hit a plateau, Superman, who's already powerful beyond compare, is presumably still discovering his. Is this humongous gap between him and other superheroes really necessary though. He's embarrassing them.

#31 Edited by WDW (1520 posts) - - Show Bio

@powerwoman said:

@marvel123: No,wonder woman always get destroyed by Doomsday,No matter it's Pre-52 or New 52

Superman always can toe with toe fight doomsday

I disagree Wonder Woman can also go Toe To Toe with Doomsday

#32 Edited by marvel123 (377 posts) - - Show Bio

@powerwoman: i'm just making the point that the justice league members can still do well without bats and supes, that's why i showed the clip.

@wonderwomanfan8: ur right, the video clip is kinda misleading, but it's the only one i could find for that specific scene of the JL battling darksied without supes and bats

#33 Posted by Lvenger (21246 posts) - - Show Bio

@wdw: That was a weaker and imperfect clone/duplicate version of Doomsday. When Diana fights the real Doomsday, she acknowledges this before Doomsday effortlessly manhandles her.

@dernman said:

Because Doomsday>>>Superman>>Wonder Woman.

This. Doomsday is on a whole other level of power that Superman cannot match.

#34 Edited by WDW (1520 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@wdw: That was a weaker and imperfect clone/duplicate version of Doomsday. When Diana fights the real Doomsday, she acknowledges this before Doomsday effortlessly manhandles her.

I disagree based on the scan below.

and the "REAL DOOMSDAY" was actually NOT"THE REAL DOOMSDAY" since it was really braniac who took over doomsdays body. Also in that ARC superman never fought the Doomsday/Braniac amalgamation that beat the entire justice league including MMH

#35 Edited by Lvenger (21246 posts) - - Show Bio

@wdw: If you look at the scan closely, you'll see that Diana notes that the monster is as "powerful as when it battled Superman to death." That's Death of Superman Doomsday, a weaker and not as powerful version as Hunter Prey. That version overpowered Darkseid, defeated a Mother Box and New Genesis tech amped Superman with Waverider as back up, laughed off a blast of a million nuclear explosions and tore through contingents of Imperiex Drones when one gave Superman trouble.

Also the Brainiac/DD amalgamation fought Superman twice, there are scans for this fight available.

#36 Posted by WDW (1520 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@wdw: If you look at the scan closely, you'll see that Diana notes that the monster is as "powerful as when it battled Superman to death." That's Death of Superman Doomsday, a weaker and not as powerful version as Hunter Prey. That version overpowered Darkseid, defeated a Mother Box and New Genesis tech amped Superman with Waverider as back up, laughed off a blast of a million nuclear blasts and tore through contingents of Imperiex Drones when one gave Superman trouble.

Also the Brainiac/DD amalgamation fought Superman twice, there are scans for this fight available.

Fine but my comment was originally addressed to powerwoman who implied Wonder Woman gets beat with all versions and every encounter of the doomsday character which I disagreed with

#37 Edited by WDW (1520 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: I would love it if you posted scans or gave me the issue when Superman actually fought the Braniac/Doomsday amalgamation that beat the justice league

#38 Posted by Lvenger (21246 posts) - - Show Bio

@wdw: Gladly. Here you go

#39 Posted by Bezza (3869 posts) - - Show Bio

So how come Superman was in the end able to beat up on that almighty Hunter Prey DD, considering how effortlessly he was able to swat away all the JL and knock out Darkseid? It did seem rather a turn around when, for most of the book, DD was beating up on Superman fairly effortlessly!! I think its stuff like this that annoys some people about Superman, because stories like this one place him on a much higher plane to other DC powerhouses to the extent where one is tempted to ask "does he need the JL?"

#40 Posted by Lvenger (21246 posts) - - Show Bio

@bezza: Superman's never beaten the Hunter Prey version of Doomsday mate. That incarnation broke Superman's arm with ease and had to be BFRed to the end of time to be stopped. When HP DD came back, he had to be sealed in the JLA teleporters to ensure he couldn't escape. Only Imperiex Prime destroyed HP DD with any kind of attack on him. All other times, DD has had to be BFRed or incapacitated to be stopped.

#41 Edited by WonderWomanFan8 (219 posts) - - Show Bio

In order for Superman and his villains to be more compelling to me, they need to find a way to bridge the gap between his power when NOT holding back, along with his team mates. More checks please.

#42 Edited by WDW (1520 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly there is no point to this thread since everyone in the justice league got Wooped by Doomsday. Not just Wonder Woman

#43 Posted by WDW (1520 posts) - - Show Bio
#44 Edited by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

@wdw: except the japanese-inspired hair you mean, and the shakespearean exuberance.

#45 Edited by WDW (1520 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizoom said:

@wdw: except the japanese-inspired hair you mean, and the shakespearean exuberance.

Heh I like multiple version of wonder woman based on artist impressions

#46 Edited by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

@wdw: I like some designs, not this one though, she looks like Korra from Legends of Korra.

#47 Edited by PowerWoman (3576 posts) - - Show Bio

@wdw: Stop Interpret out of context

wonder woman can do that it's because her strength 10x time stronger than before when she have bracelets,wonder woman strength nothing to do with DD

#48 Edited by PowerWoman (3576 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Why you scan this?

superman beat doomsday by himself

#49 Edited by marvel123 (377 posts) - - Show Bio

@wdw said:

@marvel123 said:

@deaditegonzo: @r2datu: @archizoom: @wonderwomanfan8: @powerwoman: I'm convinced that the rest of the justice league members can hold their own with out superman and batman........but having a justice league without them, well ..it just wouldn't be the same

Wonder Woman was awesome. Exactly how she should be.

the days of superman fighting darksied by himself are gone

#50 Edited by Zandalf (173 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizoom said:

@johnni_kun: I think we can have Superman in the Justice League without having him eclipse, shame and dwarf his teammates constantly. While everybody's powers seem to have hit a plateau, Superman, who's already powerful beyond compare, is presumably still discovering his. Is this humongous gap between him and other superheroes really necessary though. He's embarrassing them.

But what are you talking about? have you ever heard a guy named J'onn J'onz of Mars? Or Wally West? Have you seen what happened in Superman/Wonderwoman # 4 when he gets brutally defeated but she could stalemate 2 kryptonians? Now even Aquaman can throw a submarine out of the ocean, its simply logical to me and probably to many others that Superman is stronger than that. Even if he can lift the earth he isn't embarassing anyone, he still needs the JL, the whole world needs the JL and the other heores: if Darkseid will come back to our planet and will find just Superman to defend it he can take it in a matter of minutes.

Superman doesn't need to be depowered, he needs what every fictional character does: good stories and nothing else.