Pre Suit Vader is a better duelist than 10bby OWK Vader

Pre suit Vader is a better duelist than 10bby Vader

So I've decided to make this blog to deep dive into a clear comparison between pre suit Vader's performance against Obi Wan compared to 10bby Vader's performance. Based on the two respective performances, I think it is largely apparent that pre suit Vader is significantly a better duelist than 10bby Vader. Whereas suit Vader is decisively more powerful in the force.

Now I will stress that I am not at all saving that pre suit Vader is > suit Vader overall. In fact, ESB/ROTJ Vader would almost certainly defeat pre suited Vader in an all out fight. The force difference is far too great, not to mention Vader post ESB trials is matching Palpatine in sparring. However Vader as of 10bby and even Rebels is going to be losing hard to pre suited Vader in a pure duel.

With this out of the way, let's cover some preliminary points:

1. Mustafar Vader is hindered. See the following for reference -
2. OWK Vader per Insider is not conflicted. Not to mention there is not much to say he was conflcited in his duel with Obi Wan. Even if he was, it would still be meaningless given Mustafar Vader's conflcit

Now with those brief points out of the way, let's start with the scaling chain:

Pre-Hole OWK Obi Wan = Mustafar Obi Wan

In the climatic duel with Obi Wan, Vader remarks to Obi Wan that "your strength has returned". This IU statement is canonized OOU by virtue of the fact that the showrunner, who had creative oversight over the story and climatic duel, states that pre hole Obi Wan is "back at his full powers again" (see timestamp 0:05 seconds to 0:20):

It cannot be stressed enough how fortunate we are to have a DIRECT reference point to compare pre suit and suit Vader. By all intents and purposes, Mustafar Obi Wan = Pre-Hole OWK Obi. They're one in the same... and thus, we can contrast the performance between pre suit Vader and suit Vader.

Comparing the duels:

(I'm going to refer to Mustafar Vader as 'Anakin' here and OWK Vader as 'Vader', to avoid confusion).

From the offset, it is clear that both Anakin and Vader attack aggressively. This is after all, no surprise - both Anakin and Vader share the same primary form, which is Form V Djem So. Anakin and Vader are primarily offensive fighters and are rarely if ever on the defense. This is important to note, because it is here that we see where their skill divulges. Almost immediately, Anakin is on the attack against Obi Wan and driving him back. The audio description describes this sequence as:

"Anakin backflips over to his former teacher and drives him back with a series of high sideways strikes"

It is readily apparent from the above GIF that Anakin is all over Obi Wan with constant pressure. The audio description acknowledges that Anakin is driving him back. This isn't just Obi Wan flooding to fight defensively. He's being forced back and has to adopt his primary form. Similarly, OWK Vader attacks Obi Wan first too:

In fact, if you look closely at the end of the GIF, you'll see that Vader is initially driving Obi Wan back:

When we return to this duel, we see that this is no longer the case and that they're fighting more evenly. The shift into a more even match is reflected by the audio description:

"Vader sparks his own blade and attacks. The two of them fight in a clash of blue and red. Each skillfully parry erupts in a flurry of sparks. A view from overheard swirls around the heated combat. Obi Wan gymnastically tumbles away from his adversary and continues the battle from one knee. As their blades lock together he returns to his feet and tries to connect with a mighty lunge. The two of them briefly find themselves fighting back to back. Each spinning to try and gain the upper hand on the other."

However we see a shift take place. Now this is rather significant. Obi Wan manages to turn tables and drive Vader back. This may not sound significant to some of you reading, so I'll reiterate it in a different way. Obi Wan, a primarily defensive fighter, manages to force Darth Vader, a primarily aggressive offensive fighter, to adopt the defense:

In fact, the audio description not only acknowledges that Obi is forcing Vader to adopt the defensive position, but it also states that it is because Obi's strikes are "strong" enough do that:

"A couple of strong swings put Vader on the defensive"

Upon further inspection, something else also becomes clear. Obi Wan is using wild and basic frenzied strikes to force Vader back. This form of fighting most closely resembles Shii-Cho, which is the most basic lightsaber form imaginable. It's called form I for a reason, and it's the one they teach younglings:

Not only is he driving Vader back with a very basic form, and not only is the audio description attributing this to his strength, but he is also forcing Vader to shift forms. If you look closely at Vader's stance at the end of the GIF, he's adopting the signature Ataru stance which the likes of Qui Gon and Yoda wield:

So for brief summary, we have:

• Obi, a primarily defensive fighter, driving Vader (an offensive fighter) back, despite Vader initially attacking first
• Obi adopting a very basic form of offense
• The audio description attributing this to Obi's strength (obviously Obi used skill too, but the combination of basic form choice + attribution to strength means that strength is majorly at play here)
• Vader being forced to shift from his primary form of Djem So to Ataru

Now let's compare the above with hindered Anakin's performance against the same Obi Wan. Credit to Cryolancer47 for the below GIFs:

Hindered Anakin breaks Obi's guard with a kick. Not a saber strike. But a kick:

Anakin drives Kenobi back, and overpowers him again:

Anakin overpowers and chokes Kenobi. Page 746 of the senior novel states that Anakin's non robotic hand was going to crush Obi's bones. That's just a testament to his monstrous strength.

"Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks."

Kenobi only manages to escape with a kick when Anakin wasn't ready, only for Anakin to recover quickly and kick Obi-Wan before the latter can swing at him:

Both are equally matched in the Force, and are blown back from the clash. But Anakin recovers immediately, while Kenobi is clearly affected by what happened:

This is how much a kick from Kenobi affects the hindered Anakin:

And this is how a kick from Anakin affects Kenobi:

Anakin overpowers Kenobi in a blade-lock, TWICE:

In fact, there is only one point in the duel in which it looks like Obi Wan tries to go on the offensive against Anakin. What enda up happening is that Anakin just straight up punches Obi so hard he staggers him and nearly knocks him over. He completely thrawts any attempt Obi has at fighting on the offensive:

So what we can see so far? Both Anakin and Vader are offensive fighters against the same version of Obi Wan. That's where the similarities begin and end. Anakin is able to constantly pressure Obi Wan, force him back, overpower him in strength contests, nearly crush his bones and force Obi to utilize his defensive Soresu to the fullest of his ability. Keep in mind, this isn't even Anakin at his peak, but the hindered version. On the other hand, Vader is being forcibly driven back by Obi's offensive form, struggling against Obi's strength and all around just performing noticeably worse in sabers.

It does not end there either. When we return to the OWK duel, Obi is still driving Vader back. He is still fighting with that wild frenzied form:

In fact, not only is he driving him back, but he is physically PUSHING him back in their saber lock. His raw strength and aggression is enough to briefly press Vader back. Such a maneveur would have been suicide against the force augmented strength of pre suit Vader:

To Vader's credit, he is able to briefly press Obi back. However Obi just cleanly counters this by breaking his guard. The audio description even refers to this maneuver as "staggering" Vader:

"Obi Wan swings with all his might staggering his foe"

Definition of the word staggered:

Given that it is said he "swings with all his might", it again points to Obi's physical strength which is what is capable of staggering him. In fact, we have three clear examples of Obi's physical strength giving Vader serious issues:

• His "strong" swings which forced him to shift to Ataru
• Obi physically driving Vader back in their saber lock
• Obi breaking his guard

Vader having his guard broken like this is quite significant once you compare it to Anakin who is straight up able to break Obi's guard with kicks, let alone saber strikes:

Hindered Anakin breaks Obi's guard with a kick. Not a saber strike. But a kick:

Anyway, I have elected to end the OWK duel at the portion where Obi tries to telekentically move the pillar. At that point, it becomes a force contest in which Vader is clearly superior. An area in which pre suited Vader could not assert superiority. The force contest not only allows Vader to recuperate but also to regain himself and gain an upper hand. Prior to that however, it was pure duelling, in which Obi was noticeably superior.

Now I'm not trying to drag Vader here. Obi is very obviously having to fight to the fullest of his abilities to pull this off. He's having to roll around a lot too, which shows that he is fully aware of how dangerous Vader is. In fact, I think it's very respectable that Vader was able to be relative to a peak ROTS Obi. Ironically, this is probably his best duelling feat in canon. The other duelling showings are not close. So we have a pre prime suited Vader giving Kenobi issues, but ultimately being the inferior duelist.

Obi could not ever hope to fight Anakin the way he did Vader. And even if he wanted to, he was incapable of it due to being clearly weaker. So to come to my conclusion:

Concluding thoughts

• Anakin is very obviously a better offensive duelist than OWK Vader. He's able to constantly drive Obi Wan back and force him to utilise his Soresu to the fullest of his abilities. By comparison, Vader tried fighting Obi Wan offensively but was actually driven back for the near entireity of the duel. Anakins Djem So >>>> Vader's. Keep in mind, this isn't even peak Anakin who performed better than Vader, but the hindered Mustafar Version. Therefore, KFV >> MFV >>> OWK Vader in sabers
• Anakin has greater force augmented strength than OWK Vader. He's constantly overpowering Obi Wan in their strength contests, to the point where he is even described as being able to crush Obi's bones. By comparison, ROTS Obi is nearing or on par with OWK Vader in force augmented strength. We have 3 clear cut instances of his strength being a huge issue for Vader, with even the audio description explicitly attributing Obi's dominance to the strength of his strikes
• Force power does not always translate smoothly to augmentation. They're obviously correlated. For example, Vader is massively more powerful than the likes of Ezra Bridger and would be able to destroy him purely based on augmented stats. However we have clear instances where force power doesn't always equate to stats. For example, Mustafar Anakin and Obi stalemated in their force clash. And yet, Anakin dominated him in their physical contests. Vader is clearly more powerful than Obi Wan based on their TK contest over the pillar, yet Obi's force augmented strength was giving Vader serious issues. OWK Vader is blatantly more powerful than Mustafar Anakin based on comparing the Mustafar force clash to the pillar contest, and yet Anakin physically overpowers the same Obi that Vader struggles to. Now if you want an IU reason as to why Vader's augmentation is worse despite being more powerful in the force, this is anyone's guess. But it seems highly likely that his machinery means he can't augment his stats to the extent that he could. Regardless of what the reason may or may not be, this version of Vader has worse augmentation and skill than pre suit Vader
• To his credit, OWK Vader is more powerful then Mustafar Anakin and was able to actually beat ROTS Obi with the force. Something which Mustafar Anakin could not do

Yup, seems legit. Good work.

say it louder for the people at the back

he at the very least matched obi wan in skill while being far above in raw power. that alone makes him a better overall duelist than rots anakin. pure lightsaber skill isn’t the only factor in a fight so vader is still superior.

Nice work

What makes you think he matched him in skill? He was forced to shift forms, driven back and had his guard broken. Obi was not even using his primary form. I feel I conveyed all this clearly in my OP.

@frozen: if your opponent is also attacking aggressively it’s logical you have to switch to a defensive form to actually defend. every single character in the verse (for the most part) has been on the defensive at one point or another. just because you switch styles to attempt to better combat your opponents doesn’t make you weaker than them, it makes you more strategic. vader also visibly doesn’t fight the same as anakin anymore. he’s more reserved and powerful in his strikes while also losing a bit of mobility and agility (as shown). he’s obviously going to fight differently and perform differently. star wars has one of the worst applications of abc logic in fiction.

regardless your thread is wrong overall because the vader obi wan fought ended the fight with the force effortlessly which anakin was incapable of doing. the force is a factor in every single lightsaber duel and accounts for much of what being a duelist means. this vader is still above anakin as a duelist overall. there may be a trade off due to loss of mobility but he’s overall more effective.

@emmafrostxmen:

if your opponent is also attacking aggressively it’s logical you have to switch to a defensive form to actually defend. every single character in the verse (for the most part) has been on the defensive at one point or another. just because you switch styles to attempt to better combat your opponents doesn’t make you weaker than them, it makes you more strategic.

Nope. Obi was completely incapable of fighting aggressively against Anakin. That's the point. He even tries once and is swiftly overpowered. Obi initially started defensive against Vader by adopting the Soresu stance. However he is able to turn the tides on Vader. He straight up isn't able to fight offensively against Anakin because he is being physically overwhelmed. Against Vader, he's actually the one who has THREE separate instances of overpowering Vader.

regardless your thread is wrong overall because the vader obi wan fought ended the fight with the force effortlessly which anakin was incapable of doing. the force is a factor in every single lightsaber duel and accounts for much of what being a duelist means. this vader is still above anakin as a duelist overall. there may be a trade off due to loss of mobility but he’s overall more effective.

If you'd read my thread, you would see that I plainly acknowledged that Vader was able to win through the force. Something I said Anakin couldn't do. The point of the blog is to assess their pure saber abilities, which includes skill and force augmentation. Not TK. So nothing you have said actually adresses the OP.

This is all really sound, but the conclusion still just boggles my mind. The idea that Vader, the hulking man-machine monstrosity is getting pushed back and having his strength matched by Obi is insane to me. His arms are literally pure mechanical might, how the hell is he getting shoved so hard he stumbles and grunts? Especially compared to overpowering Obi consistently in strength contests 10 years earlier and with less pure physical strength.

Good thread.

You'd have to ask the writers why they chose to go down that route. I have no clue.

@frozen: I assume they wanted to make Obi look like he was doing really well so he wouldn’t be getting forced back or manhandled. More like a contest of equals (even though ROTS did it better). But it just makes Vader look substantially worse than Anakin after a 10-year adjustment period.

At least Obi fighting contrary to form has basis in canon. He did it against Rebels Maul. That said, the scaling of the show is a mess. Fortunately for Vader, it's probably his best feat in terms of combat - that being defeating ROTS Kenobi with the force. The issue is that his duelling just looks end up looking iffy. He was clearly relative, but being driven back the way he was and having his guard broken is not a good look. So it's a trade off. He gets superior force scaling but inferior duelling.

At the very least, we got statements saying Obi was back at ROTS levels. If we didn't get such statements, then it would look very bad. Because Vader would have been hard pressed by an out of practice desert rat bum Kenobi.

@frozen: fair enough. To be fair I’ve always thought of Old Ben as better than ROTS Obi, but I’m aware that’s purely headcanon with next to no basis or support behind it. Though with the end of the Obi-Wan show having him get his mojo back and maybe even permanently improve past post-hole levels, the idea of prime Kenobi as ANH doesn’t feel quite so far-fetched.

I’m kind of disappointed with how iffy his dueling is now. I’ve made my perspective pretty apparent in other threads, but the idea he’s worse than he was 10 years ago while having superior Force power is just… so weird. How is his augmentation this bad with decently superior power?

@a_fine_edition:

fair enough. To be fair I’ve always thought of Old Ben as better than ROTS Obi, but I’m aware that’s purely headcanon with next to no basis or support behind it. Though with the end of the Obi-Wan show having him get his mojo back and maybe even permanently improve past post-hole levels, the idea of prime Kenobi as ANH doesn’t feel quite so far-fetched.

I wouldn't be opposed to prime Kenobi being ANH. The issue is that a lot of sub ROTS Kenobi quotes for ANH Ben exist. Albeit they were written pre OWK, I fear they may be reprinted post OWK. That said, you could just ignore those quotes and say that the series takes precedence. But there is thought in the idea that perhaps Obi Wan chooses to forego his saber skill following the series and focus on the more spiritual aspect of the force. Given that he beat Vader.

I’m kind of disappointed with how iffy his dueling is now. I’ve made my perspective pretty apparent in other threads, but the idea he’s worse than he was 10 years ago while having superior Force power is just… so weird. How is his augmentation this bad with decently superior power?

Well I don't think his augmentation is bad. ROTS Obi is a top council tier Jedi. Its moreso that Anakin is just a physical monster. After all, he physically held Dooku's hands in place on the IH. We can see from Obi vs Anakin force clash that force power doesn't always translate equally to augmentation. My reasoning is that Vader perhaps is better at channeling the force through TK than into his stats.

@frozen:

Fortunately for Vader, it's probably his best feat in terms of combat - that being defeating ROTS Kenobi with the force

Would you say that is better than post ESB Vader stomping Summa with force? I mean given how much trouble even Zillo beast gave to Jedi , with Summa being undeniably far superior Kaiju

Nah that feat is obviously way better. I meant this is his best combat feat against another lightsaber wielder, with the exception of Sidious spar.

@frozen: Interesting. I’ll hold out some hope for ANH Obi as prime. To me the whole “age makes them weak” argument never made much sense. Yoda, Sidious, and Dooku are old geezers but they’re still competing with the other top dogs. Hell, they ARE the top dogs.

Honestly my question is just… why? Like this all makes total sense within the context of what you’ve brought up, but it really just does not hold water with me in terms of taking the entire franchise into account, or even just taking basic reasoning. Why is he suddenly worse at channeling and augmenting his stats? And were his stats really so good previously that Vader with cybernetic limbs can’t outright power through people’s strikes now?

@frozen: Yeah, KFV is pretty clearly>early suited Vader.

Well I guess it's hard to ignore how slow the choreography looks in ANH. So there is a desire on the part of writers to reconcile this. The explanation usually being that Tattooine speeds up ageing and is hard on the body.

As for augmentation, well that is up for us to figure out. But as a general rule of thumb, we can see from Mustafar Anakin vs Obi that equal force power doesn't mean equal stats. Vader being part machine is noted as being a downside in canon. It's part of his character. So he can be powerul in the sense of using TK, but augmenting his stats is harder because its essentially just augmenting machinery. I'm not too sure tbh.

@frozen: true. The two of them the two of them gently poking and prodding isn’t remotely as engaging or impressive. Though to be honest I like the interpretation that Vader trimmed down his style to a more essential and efficient one, removing the flourishes and acrobatics for something more straightforward but just as skillful. I could’ve sworn I even saw a little something like that in his fight with Cere, particularly in the way the two of them hold their sabers in that midway cutscene before the final phase of the fight.

It seems to be the case. Still I find it interesting how we have a direct comparison point here.

And Vader closer to ROTJ is significantly more powerul than this OWK Vader. That is for sure.

A lot missing here. Kenobi actually can match Anakin outright when he wants to. The issue is he doesn't want to. And this is emphasized repeatedly in the BTS. But my favourite phrasing of it is

”I took it on as like a fight between a husband and wife. It sounds silly, but Obi doesn?t want to kill him. Obi has got to try and withstand this onslaught?this huge onslaught that?s going to cover like a mile and be 10 minutes long, which is an enormous amount of time for a fight. So I took it as Obi trying to take this onslaught continuously and hoping that Anakin was going to eventually, you know, get over it and calm down. That doesn?t happen."

- Gillard

"My take on the whole duel was that Obi is the central character in that duel. He wouldn’t try and kill Anakin. The way I saw that fight was like having a fight with your girlfriend. That she’s just lost it and that she’s coming at you with everything she’s got. You can’t hit her-she’s a girl. So you try to defend her as long as you can until she breaks down. Then you can give her a cuddle. That was the way I saw it. Obi is taking it and taking it, and hoping it’ll lead to a point where Anakin will run out of steam."

~ Nick Gillard

"In that fight, Anakin knows that Obi is not going to kill him…"

~ Nick Gillard

INTERVIEWER: Who is the better swordfighter... Obi-Wan or Anakin?

GILLARD: At what point?

INTERVIEWER: At the end of the Clone Wars, so Revenge of the Sith.

GILLARD: It's so close. I mean it has to be Anakin. It has to be Anakin. How I did it, it's a bit like gaining enlightenment, going up through the levels. A bit like a yogi in India might stand on his head for ten years to gain enlightenment. If he dropped some acid he might see the same thing, but it's not good and it's not going to work. But it makes him potentially far more dangerous and that's how I played Anakin/Vader at that point. He's like a junkie. He's had all the training and then he's taken a drug and so potentially, he's far more dangerous than Obi at that point. He cheated his way in. So in that fight, to me, that's where I put him. He'd just done some heroin and he went at it.

INTERVIWER: I completely see what you're saying. Technically he should have been better than Obi [Gillard nods] but because he was a little whacked out on some H like you're saying, he couldn't focus his full potential.

GILLARD: His full potential is bubbling out of him, and that's fucking dangerous, shit. Because in those kinds of fights it's like a pro boxer. They don't get excited in there, they just knock them down and wait for the moment, and that's what Obi did all the way through.

And this is echoed in the Lucas edited RotS novel and secondary material. But frankly if you want to play the sourcebook game

MFV being hindered is not a thing. Never has been

Suited vader has always been overrated in pure dueling, his injuries and suit has made him more stiff (but hes obv still of high level) but i feel like everyone and their mom has "held their own" against him at this point.

And I agree with the above post, Obi just has his number.

@greysentinel365:

I recall you saying that you don't think Obi Wan was amped against OWK Vader after he escaped the hole, and that was just plain old ROTS Obi. I'm curious for your reasoning on that?

He is a high tier, but canon prefers to emphasize him as a force god rather than a duelist.

@frozen: People get tunnel vision of the hole scene about the twins and only focus on the tail end. Its very clear looking at the scene that Kenobi having Nam' flashbacks hard. That's the weakness that Vader is referring to and what has been hindering Kenobi up to that point. Kenobi focussing on the twins, what he's fighting for, allows him to clear his mind and return to essentially his base. The Kenobi that pubstomps vader into the ground is the same "letting go" Kenobi that's present late Mustafar duel.

I see. But how do you reconcile this line of reasoning with the words of the showrunner? Because she is stating that Obi Wan is "strong and his mind at peace" prior to meeting Vader, given that she follows this line up with "he realizes he has to meet Vader".

@frozen:

I see. But how do you reconcile this line of reasoning with the words of the showrunner?

There isn't really a contradiction to need one. Kenobi making peace with him needing to do this one ship and fighting in person are two different things. Hence why Kenobi only loses ground once Vader starts bringing up the past. That's his weakness and what Kenobi has been fighting to keep down.

I think that pre suit Vader being physically stronger than suit Vader makes some sort of sense.

In Kenobi's confrontation with Grievous, his strength or the power of his blows is barely mentioned once, with the primary threat being the speed and angle of the General's strikes.

Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks—sixteen per second, eighteen—until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip. (ROTS Novelisation)

In contrast to this, during both his fight with Dooku and his fight with Kenobi, Skywalker's physical strength is a decisive factor.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker— Skywalker was getting stronger. (ROTS Novelisation)

And quotes for strength being an important advantage for Skywalker in the Kenobi fight are in the OP.

Grievous is obviously incapable of using the force to become physically stronger, but his mechanical limbs are probably a good point of reference to compare the baseline strength of Vader's own prosthetics to given that they're both state of the art replacements designed on Palpatine's orders within a few years of each other. Grievous' mechanical strength is a non issue for RoTS Kenobi.

My guess would be that if Pre-Hole OWK Kenobi is physically stronger than Vader despite Vader's cybernetics, either Vader is incapable of substantially enhancing the strength of his mechanical limbs with the force, or force based physical augmentation is the one area of the force that KFV and Anakin were substantially more skilled in than suited Vader, possibly because the limbs you're enhancing need to have midichlorians, or for whatever lore reason.

good blog

@shafamalam:

but i feel like everyone and their mom has "held their own" against him at this point.

Yeah, but to be fair Suited Vader is a pretty shit duelist

@drachna:

My guess would be that if Pre-Hole OWK Kenobi is physically stronger than Vader despite Vader's cybernetics, either Vader is incapable of substantially enhancing the strength of his mechanical limbs with the force, or force based physical augmentation is the one area of the force that KFV and Anakin were substantially more skilled in than suited Vader, possibly because the limbs you're enhancing need to have midichlorians, or for whatever lore reason.

Neither of those are correct, in Lords of Sith, Vader was specifically noted to be using force enhanced strength to overpower Lyrek queen, Kaiju, so he can definitely amp his stats a lot. Pre Hole OWK is also not really stronger, they are more on par.

@eredin12: Well then the one area Vader is weaker than Anakin in is force based physical augmentation.

At the time of OWK, yea maybe, though TK wise, Vader is stronger and that is in fact why he defeated Obi before his amp, which Anakin failed to do.

That's the way I see it... Anakin has greater force augmented strength than OWK Vader based on showings. But is lesser in TK.

As to why he has lesser augmentation, I think Drancha explanation works for OWK versions. Perhaps it is the case that Vader needs a lot more force power than a typical FU to channel into his augmentation.

@frozen: Maybe, I just wanted to note that he can still amp his stats lot , he has really good stand alone physical strength showings, such as deflecting blasts from space ships that were vaporizing Red Guards as well as deflecting blasts into tank hard enough to vaporize most of said tank. He was also stronger than Cere physically, despite how powerful she is, and he is in fact noted to be using force enhanced strength to be physically stronger than Kaiju and of course, by the time of ROTJ, he is able to clash with Emperor

In today's issue, Vader ripped apart a ship with his staff. It would require strength to stay in place and not move:

@frozen: Is that some sort of giant lightsaber spear?

It's not specified what it is. Other stuff from the issue:

@frozen: So it is indicates that that he ripped apart much more than just what we saw?

I’m not disagreeing but good gosh that’s some overanalysis

Which part?

Yep.

@frozen: …all of it.

Well I would prefer to be overly detailed than under detailed. The goal is to be specific as possible. Audio description helps clear up ambiguity.

@frozen: you labeled the thread as anakin being a better duelist. in star wars being a duelist encompasses everything a jedi can do in a fight. i read your thread and you didn’t label it properly in the title which is what i was correcting. vader is a far better duelist overall. anakin is just debatably a better ‘lightsaber’ duelist. he’s far more agile and fast whereas vader is much stronger and is visibly more reserved in his motions. vader is also much better with the force. the characters do not fight the same visually. not even close in fact so comparing them both fighting obi wan doesn’t work. they may use the same form but they do not fight the same.

When people refer to duelling, they refer to saber abilities. Typically this does not refer to force usage. Hence why most SW threads have separate rounds for sabers and force battles. So you bringing up the force when I explicitly said that Vader was more powerful is completely irrelevant and an appeal to semantics. It has nothing to do with what I wrote or the topic at hand.

We can push aside their force comparison and compare their pure duel. And it's very obvious that Anakin is superior. Both in skill and in physical strength. Vader is repeatedly overpowered and driven back by Obi Wan. Anakin on the other hand, isn't... and he overpowers Obi numerous times. He is able to break Obi's guard, drive him back and overpower him. Obi cannot fight offensively against him. Vader on the other hand, has his guard broken, is overpowered and driven back. If you have an argument as to why Vader is better at pure duelling, then bring it forward. Otherwise I'm not seeing anything that is convincing. Appealing to Vader's superior force power isn't relevant to my point whatsoever.

@emmafrostxmen:

whereas vader is much stronger

No, he isn't. I just showed you numerous.instances of Anakin directly overpowering Obi in nearly all of their strength contests. Whereas the same Obi can overpower and drive back Vader in several of their contests. Something which he cannot do against Anakin. Remember that this is the exact same Obi Wan.

@frozen: you agreed vader is better with the force. the force is directly what creates the incredible strength jedi/sith can use. it’s more logical that obi wan grew in the force as well considering jedi in canon typically don’t get weaker over time even after not training for a while. they just said he was back to his prime. i don’t believe they ever said he was perfectly akin to his ROTS version and unless it’s that exact statement then it’s a flimsy standing at best. it could easily just be hyperbolic to mean he’s back in fighting form.

@emmafrostxmen:

you agreed vader is better with the force. the force is directly what creates the incredible strength jedi/sith can use.

Once again, irrelevant. I don't care about who is more powerful in TK. The analysis on their pure duelling. Anakin clearly displays superior force augmented strength than this Vader. Its just blatantly shown in the examples provided. If you think otherwise, present your case. I've put forward the evidnece.

it’s more logical that obi wan grew in the force as well considering jedi in canon typically don’t get weaker over time even after not training for a while. they just said he was back to his prime. i don’t believe they ever said he was perfectly akin to his ROTS version and unless it’s that exact statement then it’s a flimsy standing at best. it could easily just be hyperbolic to mean he’s back in fighting form

They explicitly said he is back at his ROTS levels. "He is back at his full powers again" while the clip that overlays is showing their upcoming duel. It couldn't be any clearer that they're saying he is ROTS Obi. So no, you cannot get that pre hole Obi above ROTS Obi. Without such statements, it would be logical to assume that Obi is worse than his ROTS self because he is rusty.