According to Dabura, IIRC, a power level of 300 kili can be considered a planet buster. Even Yakon is is rated at 800 Kili. Considering he can absorb SSJ energy multiple times, this is not farfetched.
People seem to be forgetting that First Form Frieza entirely OBLITERATED Planet Vegeta, and not through that whole "Core of the Planet" thing that he did against Goku, he did that on accident!! Because he didn't use enough power out of fear for his own life (Ya know, cuz he was still ON THE PLANET). After the Saiyan Saga, Most of the higher tier characters are planet buster, and by the Cell Saga, basically everyone but Tien shinhan and Yamcha are Planetary level. To anyone who thinks this is ABC logic, it isn't, it's simple power scaling, Full Power/100% form Frieza's power level is around 120 Million, and SSJ Goku's (unpracticed SSJ goku) is around 150 Million, keeping in mind that SSJ Vegeta was on par with SSJ Goku and he got entirely annihilated by #18 (The WEAKEST of the three androids who fight cell). After that, we know that Piccolo, Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, and Gohan are all stronger than her by the time Cell reaches Perfect form, and we also know from a statement by Cell that he had "enough ki to obliterate the entire Solar System" (anyone who says this is an empty threat, use some common sense, if First Form Frieza was able to casually delete planet Vegeta, a planet with 5x Earth's gravity according to King Kai, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that Cell, who is hundreds of times stronger than that, could wipe out a Solar System with a FULL POWER ATTACK). Once you get to the Buu saga, the saga where Cell goes from big bad to Fodder, even attempting to suggest that these characters aren't planet busters is simply illogical, seriously. If you still aren't convinced, you seriously need to stop hating this series so much.
The question is silly for a number of reasons. Mostly because levels of power in DB in general fluctuate like nobody's business. They break their own rules and make it silly. Characters flippantly blow up planets but then their STRONGEST attack in the world only makes a really big impressive anime explosion............wait what??? Shouldnt earth be obliterated or whatever alien planet they're on. Oh because........reasons. AKA as PLOT. Vegeta is a perfect example. His Galick gun or whatever easily destroys planets, and its a pretty low level power but Final Flash which is WAY more powerful somehow doesnt destroy the entire planet. That just makes no sense. Also the method of 'busting' planets across universes like Marvel, DC, and anime is really different. In DC or Marvel Galick gun might do damage but not even CLOSE to planet busting. Piccolo is not destroying the moon on a whim with that low level blast etc. So in their respective universe I'd say yes probably, but across universes...............gets tricky.
@picallo3798: uh, of all examples you could’ve used for your point, why use the one where it’s actually explained why the planet wasn’t destroyed when he used his strongest attack?
In the Saiyan Saga, Vegeta destroyed a planet, whom the residence thought they were there to save it. His power level then was around 16/18,000. So judging by that, anyone with the right technique can do it.
In the Saiyan Saga, Vegeta destroyed a planet, whom the residence thought they were there to save it. His power level then was around 16/18,000. So judging by that, anyone with the right technique can do it.
This
power levels logic lol.
roshi destroyed a moon with a PL of 139? . chichi can do it too?. nice
. Daizenshuu 7 lists Kame-Sen’nin as being at 139 during the 22nd Tenka’ichi Budōkai. The text says that “he fires the original Kamehameha“, then list kame at 180, where a picture indicate that this is from his stand against Demon King Piccolo
you need 1800x that amount of energy to destroy Earth and its GBE and multiply it by 10x for planet vegeta, which means 2,502,000 BL at least. which base freiza is far off below that
then there is the kili scaling which puts only 10 million BL+ as plantery level. point in case,
Anyone above saiyan saga Vegeta with a blast comparable to galick gun/kamehameha can destroy Earth sized planet. Post-Raditz Piccolo and up could probably blow up some small ones like Mercury too seeing as how Piccolo completely vaporize our Moon.
@shintoki: 139 pl is for base Roshi. Roshi busted the Moon in his buff form plus with his strongest kamehameha that multiplies pl on top of that. ChiChi is nowhere close to that level of power and can't even manipulate energy to create a generic ki blast leave alone kamehameha. Bad argument is bad.
Anyone above saiyan saga Vegeta with a blast comparable to galick gun/kamehameha can destroy Earth sized planet. Post-Raditz Piccolo and up could probably blow up some small ones like Mercury too seeing as how Piccolo completely vaporize our Moon.
@shintoki: 139 pl is for base Roshi. Roshi busted the Moon in his buff form plus with his strongest kamehameha that multiplies pl on top of that. ChiChi is nowhere close to that level of power and can't even manipulate to create a generic ki blast leave alone kamehameha. Bad argument is bad.
Anyone above saiyan saga Vegeta with a blast comparable to galick gun/kamehameha can destroy Earth sized planet.
sure if we take vegeta claim seriously and literally.
Post-Raditz Piccolo and up could probably blow up some small ones like Mercury too seeing as how Piccolo completely vaporize our Moon.
mercury GBE > moon GBE. occam razor says no
his strongest kamehameha that multiplies pl on top of that
goku SK multiply his BL to 930 later on which is almost double his BL. later on a regular Kamehameha did the same trick. nothing special. and same should goes for roshi. even if it multiplied it. it would have made it into 278 BL. slightly above daiomo Piccolo BL which is 260
139 pl is for base Roshi. Roshi busted the Moon in his buff form plus
that means nothing, the daizenshuu/shonen jump stated he got stronger than he were in the 21 budokai tenkaichi. with his daiomo saga/22 budokai BL of 180. no matter how much you think it uprise it, it cant go above 179.
139 He powered up with training that he kept secret from his pupils. He did his best to build a bridge to the new era.
180 is taken from Kame-Sen’nin’s battle power when Bulma measures him with her converted scouter. It is worth pointing out that this is specifically supposed to be his battle power after he got stronger training for the 22nd Tenka’ichi Budōkai, meaning it would be lower during his first appearance in the series, and his fight with Goku at the 21st Tenka’ichi Budōkai.
The picture would seem to indicate that this is from his stand against Demon King Piccolo. Daizenshuu 7 lists Kame-Sen’nin as being at 139 during the 22nd Tenka’ichi Budōkai. The text says that “he fires the original Kamehameha“,
gonna assume you meant multiplate. which is irrelevant since a weaker than 180 roshi did it. and by KH mechanics logic. chichi would is still within range to do it.
to create a generic ki blast leave alone kamehameha
nice. look at the double standards, chichi cant do it because she cant use ki blasts! even though by your logic she is able to for having the required BL but whatever, double standards are double standards
Anyone above saiyan saga Vegeta with a blast comparable to galick gun/kamehameha can destroy Earth sized planet.
sure if we take vegeta claim seriously and literally.
No reason not to, there are two databooks confirming it like Daizenshuu:
Post-Raditz Piccolo and up could probably blow up some small ones like Mercury too seeing as how Piccolo completely vaporize our Moon.
mercury GBE > moon GBE. occam razor says no
You may be right on this one.
his strongest kamehameha that multiplies pl on top of that
goku SK multiply his BL to 930 later on which is almost double his BL. later on a regular Kamehameha did the same trick. nothing special. and same should goes for roshi. even if it multiplied it. it would have made it into 278 BL. slightly above daiomo Piccolo BL which is 260
That would do to base Roshi not buff mode which gives an additional unknown ammount of power boost.
139 pl is for base Roshi. Roshi busted the Moon in his buff form plus
that means nothing, the daizenshuu/shonen jump stated he got stronger than he were in the 21 budokai tenkaichi. with his daiomo saga/22 budokai BL of 180. no matter how much you think it uprise it, it cant go above 179.
139 He powered up with training that he kept secret from his pupils. He did his best to build a bridge to the new era.
180 is taken from Kame-Sen’nin’s battle power when Bulma measures him with her converted scouter. It is worth pointing out that this is specifically supposed to be his battle power after he got stronger training for the 22nd Tenka’ichi Budōkai, meaning it would be lower during his first appearance in the series, and his fight with Goku at the 21st Tenka’ichi Budōkai.
The picture would seem to indicate that this is from his stand against Demon King Piccolo. Daizenshuu 7 lists Kame-Sen’nin as being at 139 during the 22nd Tenka’ichi Budōkai. The text says that “he fires the original Kamehameha“,
Nowhere does it say his base become stronger than his previous incarantion's buff form. It could go: post training buff form > pre training buff form > post training base form > pre training base form, and this statement wouldn't change in the slightest.
ChiChi is nowhere close to that level of power
and can't even manipulate
gonna assume you meant multiplate. which is irrelevant since a weaker than 180 roshi did it. and by KH mechanics logic. chichi would is still within range to do it.
No, I meant manipulate as in Ki/energy manipulation. She can't use any form of blasts and those she can't replicate any feats done by blasts even if she's stronger. Physicals are way weaker than energy projectiles in DB because techniques like kamehameha focus and charge energy from entire body for greater damage. Generic physical attacks that Chi Chi has don't. First characters than destroyed a celestial body with physicals were DBS characters and even then they used energy manipulation like Frieza in RoF or Beerus tapping half the planet.
to create a generic ki blast leave alone kamehameha
nice. look at the double standards, chichi cant do it because she cant use ki blasts! even though by your logic she is able to for having the required BL but whatever, double standards are double standards
There is no double standards, to replicate a feat done by energy projectiles you need energy projectile yourself. Just because Vegeta can destoy Earth with a galick gun doesn't mean he can destroy Earth with a fist.
Bad argument is bad.
read above.
I did, all of them are still bad arguments, sorry not sorry.
arguing for dragon ball powerlevels in 2K19<.
There's no point in arguing, DB has one of the most simpleton of a power system in fiction, it's literally just "1<2<3" with a rare outliers. Fact people still don't understand how it works is mind blowing.
Anyone above saiyan saga Vegeta with a blast comparable to galick gun/kamehameha can destroy Earth sized planet.
sure if we take vegeta claim seriously and literally.
No reason not to, there are two databooks confirming it like Daizenshuu:
Post-Raditz Piccolo and up could probably blow up some small ones like Mercury too seeing as how Piccolo completely vaporize our Moon.
mercury GBE > moon GBE. occam razor says no
You may be right on this one.
his strongest kamehameha that multiplies pl on top of that
goku SK multiply his BL to 930 later on which is almost double his BL. later on a regular Kamehameha did the same trick. nothing special. and same should goes for roshi. even if it multiplied it. it would have made it into 278 BL. slightly above daiomo Piccolo BL which is 260
That would do to base Roshi not buff mode which gives an additional unknown ammount of power boost.
139 pl is for base Roshi. Roshi busted the Moon in his buff form plus
that means nothing, the daizenshuu/shonen jump stated he got stronger than he were in the 21 budokai tenkaichi. with his daiomo saga/22 budokai BL of 180. no matter how much you think it uprise it, it cant go above 179.
139 He powered up with training that he kept secret from his pupils. He did his best to build a bridge to the new era.
180 is taken from Kame-Sen’nin’s battle power when Bulma measures him with her converted scouter. It is worth pointing out that this is specifically supposed to be his battle power after he got stronger training for the 22nd Tenka’ichi Budōkai, meaning it would be lower during his first appearance in the series, and his fight with Goku at the 21st Tenka’ichi Budōkai.
The picture would seem to indicate that this is from his stand against Demon King Piccolo. Daizenshuu 7 lists Kame-Sen’nin as being at 139 during the 22nd Tenka’ichi Budōkai. The text says that “he fires the original Kamehameha“,
Nowhere does it say his base become stronger than his previous incarantion's buff form. It could go: post training buff form > pre training buff form > post training base form > pre training base form, and this statement wouldn't change in the slightest.
ChiChi is nowhere close to that level of power
and can't even manipulate
gonna assume you meant multiplate. which is irrelevant since a weaker than 180 roshi did it. and by KH mechanics logic. chichi would is still within range to do it.
No, I meant manipulate as in Ki/energy manipulation. She can't use any form of blasts and those she can't replicate any feats done by blasts even if she's stronger. Physicals are way weaker than energy projectiles in DB because techniques like kamehameha focus and charge energy from entire body for greater damage. Generic physical attacks that Chi Chi has don't. First characters than destroyed a celestial body with physicals were DBS characters and even then they used energy manipulation like Frieza in RoF or Beerus tapping half the planet.
to create a generic ki blast leave alone kamehameha
nice. look at the double standards, chichi cant do it because she cant use ki blasts! even though by your logic she is able to for having the required BL but whatever, double standards are double standards
There is no double standards, to replicate a feat done by energy projectiles you need energy projectile yourself. Just because Vegeta can destoy Earth with a galick gun doesn't mean he can destroy Earth with a fist.
Bad argument is bad.
read above.
I did, all of them are still bad arguments, sorry not sorry.
arguing for dragon ball powerlevels in 2K19<.
There's no point in arguing, DB has one of the most simpleton of a power system in fiction, it's literally just "1<2<3" with a rare outliers. Fact people still don't understand how it works is mind blowing.
,
i said take "seriously" and "literally" for a reason. that saide, what daizenshuu says beside tori interviews is to be taken by a grain of salt. with that said, i will split roshi and vegeta debates into different sections
No reason not to
why would vegeta kill himself in a suicidal attack if we count it truly as planetary despite him fearing for his life later on
he also claimed to be the best warrior in the universe right before he was gonna allegadly destroy earth.
never showed feats later on to back this up, heck, he died to a One.
there are two databooks confirming it like Daizenshuu:
i hope one of them is not "manga the legend", a toy company collab with sheuisha. and the other is chozenshuu which is a daizenshuu reprint. because if so, misleading, otherwsie, cool.
That would do to base Roshi not buff mode which gives an additional unknown ammount of power boost.
daizenshuu/shonen jump said roshi got stronger during the 22 BT as a 180 from 139 so it doesnt matter as the boost is that insignificant if there is any
Nowhere does it say his base become stronger than his previous incarantion's buff form.
occam razor and appealing to special pleading. it said roshi got stronger than his 21 BT counterpart therefore it means he got stronger than his whole 21 BT counterpart. thats it
No, I meant manipulate as in Ki/energy manipulation.
so as in ki blasts?. got it.
She can't use any form of blasts and those she can't replicate any feats done by blasts even if she's stronger. Physicals are way weaker than energy projectiles in DB
she is still technically moon level via your PL/ki logic. regardless whe she can put it into use or not is irrelevant
because techniques like kamehameha focus and charge energy from entire body for greater damage.
overly charged attacks, never saw that before and still irrelevant
Generic physical attacks that Chi Chi has don't.
irrelevant since we are applying her under your PL/ki logic. she has more than enough BL to bust a moon with her physicals. inb4 ironically feats plz
First characters than destroyed a celestial body with physicals were DBS characters and even then they used energy manipulation like Frieza in RoF or Beerus tapping half the planet.
and?.
There is no double standards, to replicate a feat done by energy projectiles you need energy projectile yourself. Just because Vegeta can destoy Earth with a galick gun doesn't mean he can destroy Earth with a fist.
they can if they punched it with the same BL as the ki blast.
I did, all of them are still bad arguments, sorry not sorry.
claiming roshi has an X multiplier when buffing himself while appealing to special pleading to the daizenshuu/shonen jump stating otherwise
claiming vegeta can destroy the earth (which is suicidal) despite (him fearing for his life later on) + showing no feats later on to back that up
dismissing the fact that chichi has a highter BL than the one required to destroy the moon by Point A and appealing to special pleading
did i miss something?
There's no point in arguing,
pointless indeed yet so many fools cline to this "power levels" logic. which is just a battle power number generated by a scouter. yet.........sigh
DB has one of the most simpleton of a power system in fiction, it's literally just "1<2<3" with a rare outliers.
db power system= simpleton power system. top kek.
clearly someone thinks DB is not one of the most inconsistent work ever written
i said take "seriously" and "literally" for a reason. that saide, what daizenshuu says beside tori interviews is to be taken by a grain of salt. with that said, i will split roshi and vegeta debates into different sections
I love how you are backpedaling now. Using Chi Chi and Roshi pl and statements from databooks, fair game but as soon as databooks confirm statements from manga that don't fit your argument you make up excuses. No dude, Daizenshuu are official databooks that Toriyama himself signed under and praised, either accept them or go home.
No reason not to
why would vegeta kill himself in a suicidal attack if we count it truly as planetary despite him fearing for his life later on
Because as soon as Vegeta starts losing he's not afraid to kill himself and take opponent with him, he did the same against Frieza firing planet busting blast at Namek and he did the same against Buu killing himself
he also claimed to be the best warrior in the universe right before he was gonna allegadly destroy earth.
He was at a time. Knowing Toriyama there's a good chance that Frieza wasn't even a cocnept at the time of saiyan saga. And opposed to planet busting claim his statement about being the strongest was never confirmed in official guides.
never showed feats later on to back this up
He's way stronger than an on panel planet busters like 1st form Frieza or Buu, that's enough.
, heck, he died to a One.
Saiyans can't breath in space opposed to chars like Frieza, Beerus or Buu.
there are two databooks confirming it like Daizenshuu:
i hope one of them is not "manga the legend", a toy company collab with sheuisha.
I don't know the title. It's a sphanish only book made by Bird Studio (Toriyama's own studio). What's important is that it's offcial.
That would do to base Roshi not buff mode which gives an additional unknown ammount of power boost.
daizenshuu/shonen jump said roshi got stronger during the 22 BT as a 180 from 139
so it doesnt matter as the boost is that insignificant if there is any
Yes, reffering to their bases. Both 21st and 22nd buff forms have no stated pl. It may be 300, it may be 500, noone knows.
Nowhere does it say his base become stronger than his previous incarantion's buff form.
occam razor and appealing to special pleading. it said roshi got stronger than his 21 BT counterpart therefore it means he got stronger than his whole 21 BT counterpart. thats it
As I already adressed in previous post "It could go: post training buff form > pre training buff form > post training base form > pre training base form, and this statement wouldn't change in the slightest."
No, I meant manipulate as in Ki/energy manipulation.
so as in ki blasts?. got it.
Yes, ki blasts are the primary attribute of ki manipulation.
She can't use any form of blasts and those she can't replicate any feats done by blasts even if she's stronger. Physicals are way weaker than energy projectiles in DB
she is still technically moon level via your PL/ki logic.
If she could manipulate Ki to form ki blasts, yes. Without it, she's not even close. Also as stated previously Roshi's buff form doesn't have a stated multiplier nor a power level, it's all speculations.
regardless whe she can put it into use or not is irrelevant
It is. Energy projectiles >>>>> physicals in DB.
Generic physical attacks that Chi Chi has don't.
irrelevant since we are applying her under your PL/ki logic. she has more than enough BL to bust a moon with her physicals.
Noone in the series destroyed even a country leave alone Moon with physicals at that low pl.
inb4 ironically feats plz
Well, I can show you both on panel feats and statements showing energy projectiles destroying Moon around 1K pl. Can you show me anyone destroying Moon with physicals in 1K range pl?
First characters than destroyed a celestial body with physicals were DBS characters and even then they used energy manipulation like Frieza in RoF or Beerus tapping half the planet.
and?.
And noone before them shown feats to destroy a celestial body like Moon or planet with physicals opposed to their blasts.
There is no double standards, to replicate a feat done by energy projectiles you need energy projectile yourself. Just because Vegeta can destoy Earth with a galick gun doesn't mean he can destroy Earth with a fist.
they can if they punched it with the same BL as the ki blast.
Ki blast =/= physicals. It was sown throughout whole series that their blasts are much much stronger than generic punches and kicks. Maybe if they charged their physical attacks with KI like Goku did against King Piccolo they would be as strong as blasts but again Chi Chi can't do that.
I did, all of them are still bad arguments, sorry not sorry.
claiming roshi has an X multiplier when buffing himself while appealing to special pleading to the daizenshuu/shonen jump stating otherwise
Show me daizenshuu stating otherwise, show me official pl's and multipliers for Roshi's buff form, you can't because there is none.
claiming vegeta can destroy the earth (which is suicidal) despite (him fearing for his life later on)
Wut?
+ showing no feats later on to back that up
Vegeta has feats of straight up overpowering on panel planet busters and above the recent one being in Toppo who warped Void on atleast solar system scale.
dismissing the fact that chichi has a highter BL than the one required to destroy the moon
Give me pl of 21st Budokai buff Roshi
by Point A and appealing to special pleading
Needing energy projectiles to replicate energy projectile feat is not a "special pleading". Claiming characters with around 1K pl can one shot Moon with a generic punch or kick is quite absurd tho if you ask me.
DB has one of the most simpleton of a power system in fiction, it's literally just "1<2<3" with a rare outliers.
db power system= simpleton power system. top kek.
It is lol. Usually it's just "who has a higher number wins", hell in most cases higher number counters exotic hax abilities that ignore durability in other fictional works. It's as simple as you can get really.
clearly someone thinks DB is not one of the most inconsistent work ever written
Most of long running franchises are, Marvel, DC, Naruto, Bleach, Star Wars, Yu Gi Oh, Pokemon, recently even Harry Potter. And that's only mainstream media. Try following some REAL inconsistent stories like Kingdom Hearts for example.
Your style of quoting and responding is pretty annoying to work with btw :/
Any Saiyan Saga Vegeta level is one actually even less
Vegeta could only arguably destroy Earth with his galic gun which had a power level of at least 24,000. So nobody less than him is Earth sized planet level.
In the Saiyan Saga, Vegeta destroyed a planet, whom the residence thought they were there to save it. His power level then was around 16/18,000. So judging by that, anyone with the right technique can do it.
This
power levels logic lol.
roshi destroyed a moon with a PL of 139? . chichi can do it too?. nice
. Daizenshuu 7 lists Kame-Sen’nin as being at 139 during the 22nd Tenka’ichi Budōkai. The text says that “he fires the original Kamehameha“, then list kame at 180, where a picture indicate that this is from his stand against Demon King Piccolo
you need 1800x that amount of energy to destroy Earth and its GBE and multiply it by 10x for planet vegeta, which means 2,502,000 BL at least. which base freiza is far off below that
then there is the kili scaling which puts only 10 million BL+ as plantery level. point in case,
Loading Video...
What i meant by "This" was that anyone with the right technique should be able to do it....their power levels are irrelevant.
Basically what ET said. Anyone first form frieza level can casually bust planets way bigger than earth, anyone saiyan saga vegeta level should be able to do it at full power.
In the Saiyan Saga, Vegeta destroyed a planet, whom the residence thought they were there to save it. His power level then was around 16/18,000. So judging by that, anyone with the right technique can do it.
This
power levels logic lol.
roshi destroyed a moon with a PL of 139? . chichi can do it too?. nice
. Daizenshuu 7 lists Kame-Sen’nin as being at 139 during the 22nd Tenka’ichi Budōkai. The text says that “he fires the original Kamehameha“, then list kame at 180, where a picture indicate that this is from his stand against Demon King Piccolo
you need 1800x that amount of energy to destroy Earth and its GBE and multiply it by 10x for planet vegeta, which means 2,502,000 BL at least. which base freiza is far off below that
then there is the kili scaling which puts only 10 million BL+ as plantery level. point in case,
Loading Video...
What i meant by "This" was that anyone with the right technique should be able to do it....their power levels are irrelevant.
i said take "seriously" and "literally" for a reason. that saide, what daizenshuu says beside tori interviews is to be taken by a grain of salt. with that said, i will split roshi and vegeta debates into different sections
I love how you are backpedaling now. Using Chi Chi and Roshi pl and statements from databooks, fair game but as soon as databooks confirm statements from manga that don't fit your argument you make up excuses. No dude, Daizenshuu are official databooks that Toriyama himself signed under and praised, either accept them or go home.
No reason not to
why would vegeta kill himself in a suicidal attack if we count it truly as planetary despite him fearing for his life later on
Because as soon as Vegeta starts losing he's not afraid to kill himself and take opponent with him, he did the same against Frieza firing planet busting blast at Namek and he did the same against Buu killing himself
he also claimed to be the best warrior in the universe right before he was gonna allegadly destroy earth.
He was at a time. Knowing Toriyama there's a good chance that Frieza wasn't even a cocnept at the time of saiyan saga. And opposed to planet busting claim his statement about being the strongest was never confirmed in official guides.
never showed feats later on to back this up
He's way stronger than an on panel planet busters like 1st form Frieza or Buu, that's enough.
, heck, he died to a One.
Saiyans can't breath in space opposed to chars like Frieza, Beerus or Buu.
there are two databooks confirming it like Daizenshuu:
i hope one of them is not "manga the legend", a toy company collab with sheuisha.
I don't know the title. It's a sphanish only book made by Bird Studio (Toriyama's own studio). What's important is that it's offcial.
That would do to base Roshi not buff mode which gives an additional unknown ammount of power boost.
daizenshuu/shonen jump said roshi got stronger during the 22 BT as a 180 from 139
so it doesnt matter as the boost is that insignificant if there is any
Yes, reffering to their bases. Both 21st and 22nd buff forms have no stated pl. It may be 300, it may be 500, noone knows.
Nowhere does it say his base become stronger than his previous incarantion's buff form.
occam razor and appealing to special pleading. it said roshi got stronger than his 21 BT counterpart therefore it means he got stronger than his whole 21 BT counterpart. thats it
As I already adressed in previous post "It could go: post training buff form > pre training buff form > post training base form > pre training base form, and this statement wouldn't change in the slightest."
No, I meant manipulate as in Ki/energy manipulation.
so as in ki blasts?. got it.
Yes, ki blasts are the primary attribute of ki manipulation.
She can't use any form of blasts and those she can't replicate any feats done by blasts even if she's stronger. Physicals are way weaker than energy projectiles in DB
she is still technically moon level via your PL/ki logic.
If she could manipulate Ki to form ki blasts, yes. Without it, she's not even close. Also as stated previously Roshi's buff form doesn't have a stated multiplier nor a power level, it's all speculations.
regardless whe she can put it into use or not is irrelevant
It is. Energy projectiles >>>>> physicals in DB.
Generic physical attacks that Chi Chi has don't.
irrelevant since we are applying her under your PL/ki logic. she has more than enough BL to bust a moon with her physicals.
Noone in the series destroyed even a country leave alone Moon with physicals at that low pl.
inb4 ironically feats plz
Well, I can show you both on panel feats and statements showing energy projectiles destroying Moon around 1K pl. Can you show me anyone destroying Moon with physicals in 1K range pl?
First characters than destroyed a celestial body with physicals were DBS characters and even then they used energy manipulation like Frieza in RoF or Beerus tapping half the planet.
and?.
And noone before them shown feats to destroy a celestial body like Moon or planet with physicals opposed to their blasts.
There is no double standards, to replicate a feat done by energy projectiles you need energy projectile yourself. Just because Vegeta can destoy Earth with a galick gun doesn't mean he can destroy Earth with a fist.
they can if they punched it with the same BL as the ki blast.
Ki blast =/= physicals. It was sown throughout whole series that their blasts are much much stronger than generic punches and kicks. Maybe if they charged their physical attacks with KI like Goku did against King Piccolo they would be as strong as blasts but again Chi Chi can't do that.
I did, all of them are still bad arguments, sorry not sorry.
claiming roshi has an X multiplier when buffing himself while appealing to special pleading to the daizenshuu/shonen jump stating otherwise
Show me daizenshuu stating otherwise, show me official pl's and multipliers for Roshi's buff form, you can't because there is none.
claiming vegeta can destroy the earth (which is suicidal) despite (him fearing for his life later on)
Wut?
+ showing no feats later on to back that up
Vegeta has feats of straight up overpowering on panel planet busters and above the recent one being in Toppo who warped Void on atleast solar system scale.
dismissing the fact that chichi has a highter BL than the one required to destroy the moon
Give me pl of 21st Budokai buff Roshi
by Point A and appealing to special pleading
Needing energy projectiles to replicate energy projectile feat is not a "special pleading". Claiming characters with around 1K pl can one shot Moon with a generic punch or kick is quite absurd tho if you ask me.
DB has one of the most simpleton of a power system in fiction, it's literally just "1<2<3" with a rare outliers.
db power system= simpleton power system. top kek.
It is lol. Usually it's just "who has a higher number wins", hell in most cases higher number counters exotic hax abilities that ignore durability in other fictional works. It's as simple as you can get really.
clearly someone thinks DB is not one of the most inconsistent work ever written
Most of long running franchises are, Marvel, DC, Naruto, Bleach, Star Wars, Yu Gi Oh, Pokemon, recently even Harry Potter. And that's only mainstream media. Try following some REAL inconsistent stories like Kingdom Hearts for example.
Your style of quoting and responding is pretty annoying to work with btw :/
pretty late but better late than never. and finals made me busy
Vegeta:
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I love how you are backpedaling now. Using Chi Chi and Roshi pl and statements from databooks, fair game but as soon as databooks confirm statements from manga that don't fit your argument you make up excuses. No dude, Daizenshuu are official databooks that Toriyama himself signed under and praised, either accept them or go home.
taking them with a grain of salt =/= rejecting them. i don't get why verifying whether an evidence is valid or not is the equivalent of rejecting them but oh well.
Because as soon as Vegeta starts losing he's not afraid to kill himself and take opponent with him, he did the same against Frieza firing planet busting blast at Namek and he did the same against Buu killing himself
majin vegeta was a bad example since he sacrificed himself to atone for his sins and take out boo with him so the others don't have to risk fighting him. he wasn't really being suicidal.
but i suppose vegeta losing his nerve in namek was a fair example of a suicidal attempt.
He was at a time. Knowing Toriyama there's a good chance that Frieza wasn't even a cocnept at the time of saiyan saga.
gotta reknow then.
And opposed to planet busting claim his statement about being the strongest was never confirmed in official guides.
true, which further proves he was bluffing.
He's way stronger than an on panel planet busters like 1st form Frieza or Buu, that's enough.
scaling =/= feats, but fair enough.
Saiyans can't breath in space opposed to chars like Frieza, Beerus or Buu.
You can't breath in space, there is no air to breath. you either can survive without air or not. according to toriyama, saiyans probably barely breath.
if we take his word in face value, then i'm sure they can project an energy shield around them and hold it off for a minute at least. but i'm no hypocrite, ki is not equal in stats. so that does not matter either way, since DC =/= durability.
i'm an open minded person. so i will settle for this:
he was aiming for the Planet's core to detonate it, and leave via his FTL spaceship right immediately upon impact. not a proper planet buster. but a one nonetheless. the vegeta talk ends here
I don't know the title. It's a sphanish only book made by Bird Studio (Toriyama's own studio). What's important is that it's offcial.
the title is: the manga of the legend
it's not spanish only, it's available both in french and japanese actually.
it wasn't made by bird studio. bird studio is where toriyama makes his various manga with the help of his assistants. where it gets published by sheuisha afterwards. so that's a alot of misinformation. that book was made as a collab work between sheuisha and hachette, hachette is a french distrubtor/publisher for manga. basically funi but french and manga only.
this is the company address: 43, quai de Grenelle 75905 Paris Cedex 15. it's french.
that guidebook is not canon at all as it has 0 relation to the author beside being made by the company he works for. in other words, it's the equivalent of sheuisha stating boohan = SS3 Goku. sheuisha be sheuisha, at any rate. that means only daiz backs up your viewpoint.
official =/= canon
Yes, reffering to their bases. Both 21st and 22nd buff forms have no stated pl. It may be 300, it may be 500, noone knows.
sarcastic answer: or could be 1,2B because why not?, no one knows after all!.
serious answer: daimao piccolo 260 > buff roshi. deal with it.
As I already adressed in previous post "It could go: post training buff form > pre training buff form > post training base form > pre training base form, and this statement wouldn't change in the slightest."
read above.
If she could manipulate Ki to form ki blasts, yes. Without it, she's not even close.
so you acknowledge that she is a moon buster by your formula?. regardless whether she has the right technique or not.
to make this even funnier, with the right technique, farmer with a shotgun can bust an island!.
Also as stated previously Roshi's buff form doesn't have a stated multiplier nor a power level, it's all speculations.
i for once never stated that it does, can't speak for the others but roshi did when he stated piccolo was out of his league when he was 180 at base, this means the boost is that *tiny*, if you want to use your charging rise your power logic to that, then at max, it can't be above 2x.
It is. Energy projectiles >>>>> physicals in DB.
tell that to jiren or broly who were using physicals in favor of energy projections for the most part. in other words, what you are preaching about is but a rule of thumb.
Noone in the series destroyed even a country leave alone Moon with physicals at that low pl.
i'm pretty sure an Oozaru can destroy a DB country regardless of its battle power because of its size
Well, I can show you both on panel feats and statements showing energy projectiles destroying Moon around 1K pl. Can you show me anyone destroying Moon with physicals in 1K range pl?
considering that the moon in dragon ball somehow has air, depicted as tiny, has the same distance as ours, and doesn't kill its inhabitants when it explode. my bet is in the Oozaru!
First characters than destroyed a celestial body with physicals were DBS characters and even then they used energy manipulation like Frieza in RoF or Beerus tapping half the planet.
i'm pretty sure an SS4 goku can destroy a celestial body with his physicals and walk it off
Ki blast =/= physicals. It was sown throughout whole series that their blasts are much much stronger than generic punches and kicks. .
isn't that like saying they can't deflect ki projections with their physicals because ki projection > physicals? you just need the same amount/level of energy to deflect said projections.
Maybe if they charged their physical attacks with KI like Goku did against King Piccolo they would be as strong as blasts but again Chi Chi can't do that
oh look who remembered that's a thing. not toriyama for sure.
Show me daizenshuu stating otherwise, show me official pl's and multipliers for Roshi's buff form, you can't because there is none.
why would i need to show you an official multiplier for roshi buff form to shut your insane hypothesis?, you said it yourself. nothing of you are claiming is officially supported and mere hypothesis, roshi said he can't take out daimaio piccolo, that's it. the author intent is clear
Vegeta has feats of straight up overpowering on panel planet busters and above the recent one being in Toppo who warped Void on atleast solar system scale.
again, that is scaling and not feats. majin vegeta was solar system level for being around SS2 preteen gohan level. so that's not impressing.
Give me pl of 21st Budokai buff Roshi
easy, above 180 and less than 260.
Needing energy projectiles to replicate energy projectile feat is not a "special pleading". Claiming characters with around 1K pl can one shot Moon with a generic punch or kick is quite absurd tho if you ask me.
in case you need a memeory refresing, goku as a kid was pulling boulders in the range of hundreds of tons, and an Oozaru, he should do it in the thousands. so i don't see why?. of course we all know those were retconned
It is lol. Usually it's just "who has a higher number wins", hell in most cases higher number counters exotic hax abilities that ignore durability in other fictional works. It's as simple as you can get really.
Most of long running franchises are, Marvel, DC, Naruto, Bleach, Star Wars, Yu Gi Oh, Pokemon, recently even Harry Potter. And that's only mainstream media. Try following some REAL inconsistent stories like Kingdom Hearts for example.
well, usually so if the contenders are going pure energy projections but when it comes to those who have special techniques, hax, and the other stuff, you can be many times stronger than them and you would still lose.
the highter battle ignore hax is false, it's like saying piccolo can ignore mafuba because he has a highter battle power. no, you need a counter hax. vegito was a candy and yet was somehow talking, and alive?, sorta like being dimensionally warped as a candy
you think kingdom hearts is that convulated?, try the fate series.
Basically what ET said. Anyone first form frieza level can casually bust planets way bigger than earth, anyone saiyan saga vegeta level should be able to do it at full power.
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