Zoom (Hunter Zolomon) vs Silver Surfer

@fallingcliffs: dude obviously Surfer is omnipotent... He's undefeatable in the Astral Plane and can turn anyone into a potato he's also 6 nonillion times faster than light OMG he's omnipotent. Almost as strong as Blue Marvel's Omniverse busting anti matter punches tho

Sure he has.

You know, it just occurred to me: this statement helps me understand why you are making the (erroneous) assumption that Wally is faster than Surfer.

But where are you getting this Wally moving billions of times faster than the Surfer? What feats are you basing this on?

No, not really. For both the Surfer and the Flash, when they initially started hitting the speed of light, that meant travelling time. This changed for both characters over the decades with each character chalking up phenomenally fast reaction feats at way, way over the speed of light, that did not result in time travel. But you appear to be missing a very LARGE part of that picture.

Ah, yeah. You should really look at the scans (thanks @luciferousabyss!).

The narration in the scans make it clear the Surfer was flung by the exploding super nova. That's pretty top shelf durability. I understand the point your making, but a super nova, can generate as much energy as a star does over the course of its entire life span and the resultant "light show" can last as long as months. You either didn't read the scans, don't under stand the explosive power of a super nova, or you are conveniently ignoring the obvious point being made.

You're still pushing this lone, singular feat? Yet I present several by the Surfer and you dismiss them? The Surfer did precisely the same thing. LA introduced two of him zipping through a star and another of him skimming the surface of a star and two of him using the force of the supernovas to fling him across space.

Again, the lone feat for Supes counts, but Surfer's don't?

Wow.

The scans I shared are relevant because they indicate his level of power and durability post Crisis. Therefore, the feat you're referring to shouldn't count because there is no explanation in the character's continuity that clearly demonstrates a power up for post-Crisis Superman that would allow this. Even Silver Age Superman has avoided a star going nova:

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You could show me low showings of the Surfer, but that would amount to low balling on your part, because there would be no rational, logical explanation for the character's decrease in durability. And we haven't even covered the fact that in Blitz, Wally, who has no where near the durability showings of the Surfer, did just fine against Zolomon's punches. What is Zolomon going to do to someone of Surfer's level of durability?

Right.

And it's different for post-Crisis Supes. There is no rational explanation for the astronomical increase in his durability from the other showings I've shared. And incidentally, you will notice (if you read any Superman), the scans I've shared cover several decades, not just his immediate post crisis showings. The point is, even in Hunter/Prey, he couldn't handle the resultant explosion equal to a million nukes or the resultant explosion of a star going nova.

Incidentally, the logic you applied to the Surfer above, regarding surface area, would also have to apply to Superman....

Yet, clearly Superman was knocked out by a star going nova, while the Surfer...well, it was like a walk in the park to him. Your logic is rather flimsy.

Really, the only bias I've seen thus far, resides with you.

I assume you mean, that Wally's first confrontation in Blitz was not a good showing for him? Because he did hit Zolomon in that arc...and eventually defeated him as well.

In your opinion, just how fast was Wally moving in that fight, given the amp? Curious how you respond.

Where I get the idea from? Why, from actually reading and comprehending the book. :)

So, let's take this one at a time. What is Wally's fastest, base combat speed feat?

Now what is his fastest AMPED combat speed feat?

I'd like to see the feats too, because so far, all you've done is talk.

@hyper_temporal_shift:

Sure he has.

I would like to see them.

You know, it just occurred to me: this statement helps me understand why you are making the (erroneous) assumption that Wally is faster than Surfer.

But where are you getting this Wally moving billions of times faster than the Surfer? What feats are you basing this on?

The many times he's done obscene feats of speed in timeframes far shorter than Surfer's best reaction showings? He's literally moved so fast that people with similar or better reaction speed than Surfer could not perceive him.

No, not really. For both the Surfer and the Flash, when they initially started hitting the speed of light, that meant travelling time. This changed for both characters over the decades with each character chalking up phenomenally fast reaction feats at way, way over the speed of light, that did not result in time travel. But you appear to be missing a very LARGE part of that picture.

What large part of the picture? That time travelling isn't the be all end all of their capabilities in regards to speed? You're the one who brought them both being able to time travel up as some kind of standardization of their speed.

Ah, yeah. You should really look at the scans (thanks @luciferousabyss!).

The narration in the scans make it clear the Surfer was flung by the exploding super nova. That's pretty top shelf durability. I understand the point your making, but a super nova, can generate as much energy as a star does over the course of its entire life span and the resultant "light show" can last as long as months. You either didn't read the scans, don't under stand the explosive power of a super nova, or you are conveniently ignoring the obvious point being made.

Why does being flung by the supernova make it a better feat? Stop pulling this lame "I'm guessing you didn't read the scans" thing. It's patronizing. Depending on the size scale and distance from the supernova planets can survive the blast, despite the fact that their surface area is millions of times larger than Surfer's. Surfer has better feats than surviving a supernova. It's not actually one of his best durability feats.

You're still pushing this lone, singular feat? Yet I present several by the Surfer and you dismiss them? The Surfer did precisely the same thing. LA introduced two of him zipping through a star and another of him skimming the surface of a star and two of him using the force of the supernovas to fling him across space.

I mean, it's not the only time he's gone into a star. It's just the only one that I would count because red stars don't empower him. Times like Worlds at War, he would run into the sun to get a temporary powerboost. Then there's the whole superman thing where he sat in the middle of a super star for thousands of years to gain a permanent power boost. The Rao feat is not the only time he's gone to or through a star. As you point out, in the late 80s and early 90s, Supes had bad encounters with dealing with the Sun/Stars when he was much less powerful (this would be like me using feats from when Surfer was stuck on Earth and significantly weaker than he is now to defeat your point, by the way. It's disingenuous).

Again, the lone feat for Supes counts, but Surfer's don't?

Wow.

What? Where did I say Surfer's durability feats don't count? You're just putting words in my mouth right now. I said his feats are comparable to Post Crisis Superman's. You realize that's not a slight to Surfer, right? It's not saying his feats don't count, it's saying "Yeah, that puts him around Superman's durability level."

The scans I shared are relevant because they indicate his level of power and durability post Crisis. Therefore, the feat you're referring to shouldn't count because there is no explanation in the character's continuity that clearly demonstrates a power up for post-Crisis Superman that would allow this. Even Silver Age Superman has avoided a star going nova:

Right, so why do your scans count more than other showings of Superman's durability? Superman's obviously had variable levels of durability from year to year and writer to writer. You can show him getting KO'd by someone way weaker than planet level punching and then turn around and see him tanking world shattering attacks. The same could be said for Surfer. If you want to harp on inconsistencies then that's your prerogative.

Like, your last sentence here is super indicative of what you're saying. You know that Silver Age Superman also blew stars out like candles with his breath, right? You're trying so hard to discredit Superman it's gone into the obscene of trying to discredit Silver Age Superman of all characters (as if Silver Age Superman is A: Relevant to this thread B: Weaker than Silver Surfer).

You could show me low showings of the Surfer, but that would amount to low balling on your part

Your entire debate has been comprised of trying to push low showings. Do not play the victim card here.

And we haven't even covered the fact that in Blitz, Wally, who has no where near the durability showings of the Surfer, did just fine against Zolomon's punches. What is Zolomon going to do to someone of Surfer's level of durability?

Is this really where you're going? Zolomon didn't kill Wally so Zolomon doesn't hit hard? Is this some weird joke? Zolomon's express goal was not to kill Wally. He didn't even want to KO him. He wanted to drill a lesson into his head. He can also punch as hard as Superman, again when he wasn't trying to kill the person he hit. You show an express misunderstanding of the characters you talk about.

And it's different for post-Crisis Supes. There is no rational explanation for the astronomical increase in his durability from the other showings I've shared. And incidentally, you will notice (if you read any Superman), the scans I've shared cover several decades, not just his immediate post crisis showings. The point is, even in Hunter/Prey, he couldn't handle the resultant explosion equal to a million nukes or the resultant explosion of a star going nova.

Your scans were from Hunter/Prey, which is early 90s(also known as Mullet Superman) and another scan which is late 80s. Then you have the 1 scan of him getting knocked out by a Supernova which is definitely more recent and completely fair to use, but does it override every other durability showing Superman has? Why does it count more than his Rao feat? Is this the part where I go, "Well, here's Surfer getting KO'd by Thanos." Unless you think Thanos punches harder than a Supernova (he doesn't) then there's obviously some inconsistency here. Or do I show scans of him losing fights on Earth, where Galactus trapped and weakened him, like you showing scans of early 90s Superman (acting as if showing things over "decades" makes your argument better when you're actually buffering it with a much weaker version of the character) being KO'd by stuff? Both Superman and Surfer have massive discrepancies in their durability showings, usually when it comes down to getting punched by a villain, as the Villain isn't actually punching harder than a star exploding but they've still got to KO the good guy for dramatic effect.

Incidentally, the logic you applied to the Surfer above, regarding surface area, would also have to apply to Superman....

Yet, clearly Superman was knocked out by a star going nova, while the Surfer...well, it was like a walk in the park to him. Your logic is rather flimsy.

Right so here is where I show Surfer getting KO'd by Thanos but Superman taking punches from Imperiex and question why oh why is Surfer's durability considered as good as Superman's, right? Because that's your logic. You accuse me of lowballing while your entire argument is literally based on lowballing and ignoring the bad showings of the character you're supporting. I'm ignoring the bad, out of place showings for both characters. It's just as easy to go get Surfer KO'd scans as Superman ones, you know that, right? But that's a bad, or at the very least intentionally biased, argument.

I assume you mean, that Wally's first confrontation in Blitz was not a good showing for him? Because he did hit Zolomon in that arc...and eventually defeated him as well.

That would be during his third fight with Zoom during Blitz, after three amps, yes. He also only beat him because of a plot device time warp thing that could trap Zoom. He admitted during the fight that he was losing and it was only a matter of time before Zoom overwhelmed him. If your argument is Surfer can keep up with Zoom because he's as fast as a Wally West who was amped three times over could barely keep up with him then your argument is bad.

In your opinion, just how fast was Wally moving in that fight, given the amp? Curious how you respond.

Well, we don't know. The only real scale we get is he and Zoom were fighting so fast that Superman appeared to be a statue, but that's something Wally is capable of normally. He had the speed of three other speedsters absorbed into him, for whatever that accounts.

Where I get the idea from? Why, from actually reading and comprehending the book. :)

So, let's take this one at a time. What is Wally's fastest, base combat speed feat?

Now what is his fastest AMPED combat speed feat?

I'd like to see the feats too, because so far, all you've done is talk.

Base speed would be trillions of times lightspeed where he went a few hundred thousand miles in one tenth of a nanosecond. Fastest he's gone with amps is infinite speed (he beat teleportation) or, in a more calculable part of that showing, 250,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times the speed of light.

As far as I'm aware, Surfer's reaction speed feat is responding to someone energy draining him to the nanosecond and maybe some nebulous feats where people guess at how fast he was going and reacting to off panel showings (the scanning the earth's population one). But with the annihilators the "Around nanosecond" reaction speed seems pretty consistent with that group, as I think he's got a few nanosecond showings in that run.

Zoom

ONE is from the 60s, his first appearance, one is from the 80s and the other two are from the 90s. So his consistency is good.

Go fish.

You're are truly dreaming it you believe this.

You're welcome!

@luciferousabyss:

And at the same time he gets taken down by punches and blast. Consistency is on over-all durability, not selective points in his history when he survived something. He's been knocked down plenty of times with characters who don't hit as hard as an exploding star.

@ maninthemountain: - wrong. The ss is not omnipotent, not remotely close if he were he wouldnt have gotten tagged, koed by people like thor, galactus or black panther among many others.

Hes also not ftl, flash is faster, much less zoom lol and who does he turn into potatoes? Ss also loses to mexicans with hammers so far from omnipotent, obviously hes not.

Ss dies before he knows what hits him. Period.

was the sarcasm in his statement not obvious enough for you m8?

All he needs is that split second to kill zoom but its unlikely he will

@jbourne_32: pretty sure he wasnt sarcastic....he made tgis whole explanation about ss being omnipotent lol

SS

you can look at his previious posts if you dont believe me but seriously "blue marvels universe busting anti matter punches" cmon now hes joking. W8 are you being sarcastic about his sarcasm which might or might not have been sarcasm? oh goddamit

@ jbourne_32: IDK dude, im just referring to his 'SS is omnipotent' argument and he previously said such at someone else ysing similar argument lol but still foing zoom here for this match.

The thing is... Zoom and Flash get tagged by slower people all the time as well. And all for the same reason. If a fight is that one sided, it's boring, and boring doesn't sell comics.

@tyger: Thing is SS has gotten tagged by people far slower than him, unlike in flash or zooms case. I mean ww tagged zoom, shes not exactly 'slow'. And last time I remember flash getting tagged by someone slower alot slower was DS when he took on the JL which is considered pis and pre new 52 anyway. Other than him I can only think of a few such as superman, reverse flash and future barry who are all insanely fast by their own right especially since two of them are speed force users, the other is superman....

Ss has gotten tagged by south americans with hammers and by black panther. I just dont see the comparisons...

SS being tagged or harmed by people without powers to me is far worse showing than anyone whos tagged zoom or flash..

I really need a break from some of these threads...

@ tyger: Im just pointing out the difference, at least when flash or zoom get tagged by 'slower' people they're either metahumans or people of superman level...usually. All Im saying.

I'm sorry, but I've seen flash get tagged by people that have no speed whatsoever.

@randomsid:

Flash actually trying usually doesn't get tagged, at all. But I wonder who you are referring to?

Just go back and read the pre new 52 justice league and flash comics. He got tagged all the time by people that had no speed whatsoever. I'm not saying he's slow at all, but using the argument that because one character gets tagged by slow people that makes them slow is rather ridiculous when the person that you are using as an example of speed has also been tagged by slow people.

Please lock this thread it been done already. @saren@god_spawn

This isn't any different from existing threads.