Surfer & Sentry vs. Superman & MMH

@reaverlation:

1. I've explained it with working out already.

2. Nova, also he's out of character here so he will.

3. But, as shown, he doesn't have to use it to reach those speeds.

4. The battlefield wasn't destroyed when Odin destroyed Galaxies against Seth either.

5. If we go by ultra highest end showings, then SS has zeptosecond reaction time.

@eternityx: MMH's highest end feats is forcing The Spectre onto the Astral Plane, breaching Maggedon's defences, a being who mind-raped a planet full of Old Gods (reality warping Skyfather's), telepathically keeping the god Vishnu asleep (who would end The Universe), etc. These are some of the notable telepathic feats.

My point exactly. I'm not buying this hype that SS is gonna solo or one shot anyone here. In fact MMH is the only one here most prone to one shotting anyone here.

@eternityx:

1. A fraction of a nanosecond could be 1000/2, that's 500 nanoseconds.

O__o

J'onn solos. He TP's Surfer and overpowers Sentry with his superior power and better control over his versality.

@frozen said:

@eternityx: I'll assume that comment is for me and not OMG...

@eternityx said:

1. Once again morals are off and it's within his power to do it.

2. Regular Thor's done it as well. Can't upload scans on iPhone thought. Remind me tomorrow and I'll upload them.

3. Fair enough, however this doesn't prove that he can resist SS's matter manipulation.

He hasn't been tested by an actual matter manipulator.

4. Still no proof.

5. No numbers, no proof. Also if this is the only scan showing MMH 's speed, then he really isn't a speedster.

6. It's silly and even if we assume time works as it does in Marvel, then SS can still BFR them.

1. Right, I know Surfer has morals off - the reason Surfer is fast in travel is because his speed is designed to travel great distances. It's not designed to be trillions xFTL in combat and he's struggled to translate the speed
2. Tom Brevoort, the editor of Marvel perfectly explained the difference between travel speed and combat speed with Thor as an analogy (which is also applicable to Surfer)

1. No proof??? It's been stated and backed up against Ultraman and then again when he increased his mass. He manipulates his OWN molecules, a self-matter manipulator, it's how his powers operate and work. If you matter manipulate someone who has 100% control over their own molecular structure, the person with control will just reform...
2. It's irrelevant, Flash doesn't have a quantifable number of speed every time he fights. That's just silly - however, Flash was using his speed against MMH and he had a lack of morals. That's also not the only speed feat - I gave you the feat of MMH speed-blitzing 4 White Martians in the same panel
3. It's downright silly. Why would SS go back in time and kill MMH's parents? A) There's no indication that this fight takes place in either DC or Marvel, B) he has no idea on MMH's background and C) It's silly. This sounds like a cheesy plot line, not a viable battle tactic

1. But Surfer has blitzed characters like Nova and Quasar before. And he's searched entire planets before, plus while travelling he's shown to dodge planets and other obstacles, so he must have some sort of combat speed.

2. Irrelevant, SS is not Thor and SS has shown combat speed.

3. So, he hasn't resisted it from a matter manipulator.

4. Unquantifiable. MMH seems to have less speed feats than SS, yet you say he's faster.

5. I did say it's a cheap and pretty stupid tactic, but it's not impossible. SS can still BFR him in time though.

@eternityx: You have no idea what you're saying.

So he bullrushed like Thor? This goes for you too ghostrider

In modern continuity he does

...

Hahahaha good one.He has zeptosecond reactions because of travel speed? Lol man this is just sad.

Team 1 in a good fight, edging handily.

SS beats Superman fairly easily via using energy of a red sun or draining him.

Sentry vs MMH is closer than people think; Sentry who is normally compared to Superman IMO is closely related in terms of power to MMH; both share arguably one of the best if not the best mabye in the respect universe Earths.

Both control there molecules.

Team 1 wins here

supes and mmh take this 7 out of 10.

Unlikely the writers meant it as I've said, but what I've said isn't incorrect.

Spectre is an extremely inconsistent character though, there have been times where he's been owned by characters like Black Adam.

Also, what TP defence feats did Spectre actually have?

It seems I've really p***ed you off.

But can you counter that fact that he was dodging planets and other objects whilst going trillions of times faster than light.

@eternityx: Yes I'm pissed off because you can see emotions given out by others through a screen -_-

He didn't dodge anything. He just flew straight and slowed down right after. And the fact of the matter is:He uses Hyperspace in modern continuity

You haven't shown him blitzing other than a bullrush on Nova who had his guard down and has no reactions on part with Clark or J'onn

You think 500 nanoseconds are in 1 nanosecond lol and think you're correct

He does what Thor does and is considered blitzing

I mean...anything else?

@eternityx: You're scan is the proof lol.He flew straight and nothing else. You can't prove he went around or saw planets or stuff in his way.And for the fact that, once again, he uses Travel speed in Hyperspace

To what? Sucker-Blitz opponents who have no reactions on part with J'onn or Clark?

Actually it's you grasping at straws.

So Thor never bullrushes? Is that what you are saying?

J'onn TP's Surfer and it becomes 3v1 against Sentry

^

Based on what?

@ghostrider2: Way Superior telepath

@eternityx: Do you even read your own scans? He's not even going near his top speed when he's cruising, especially when in the next panels, Surfer claims he's about to go Warp Speed(Just Light Speed) and zooms off.

And you continue ignoring about how Surfer uses Hyperspace in modern continuity

So Thor and Surfer both bullrush then

Surfer won't resist jack against someone of J'onn's caliber.

And in that same story, Diana tanked a hit from Oblivion, a cosmic entity on Galactus level and J'onn is at least as durable as Diana.

@reaverlation: SS has good resistance.It will probably hurt SS but he cannot control him.If SS blitz he won't have the chance to use telepathy anyway.

@eternityx:

1. But Surfer has blitzed characters like Nova and Quasar before. And he's searched entire planets before, plus while travelling he's shown to dodge planets and other obstacles, so he must have some sort of combat speed.

Surfer's been blitzed by The Runner (a Flash like character). Spider-Man's speed posed problems for him in combat. 'Dodging planets' isn't a combat feat either, that's Surfer flying with his travel speed and altering trajectory. That hardly necesstiates at trillions xFTL combat speed.

2. Irrelevant, SS is not Thor and SS has shown combat speed.

The comparison is perfectly legitimate. Both lack combat speed and their best feats of FTL are travel.

3. So, he hasn't resisted it from a matter manipulator.

He is a matter manipulator. He has 100% control over his own molecules - there isn't really more I'm going to say to this. I've provided the evidence.

4. Unquantifiable.

It's not unquantifiable. An angry Barry Allen was fighting at super-speeds with MMH. Are you trying to suggest that Barry is slower than Nanosecond?

MMH seems to have less speed feats than SS

His combat feats are better.

, yet you say he's faster.

In combat, yes.

5. I did say it's a cheap and pretty stupid tactic, but it's not impossible. SS can still BFR him in time though.

He can't dump him in time. Flash has also time travelled, he doesn't dump people in time. This would require Surfer to grab onto Martian, fly light-years away and hope he ends up somewhere in time.

@eternityx: About The Spectre:

1. The Black Adam feat is a low showing. Characters like Galactus have equally low, if not worse showings. And The Spectre in power dwarfs Galactus
2. It was Hal Jordan Spectre, who defeated Jokerized Parallax (could re-write The Universe)
3. The Hal Jordan Spectre DOES have TP resistance - he resisted a mental assault from Stigmonus, an abstract entity who was a personifcation for all the thoughts in The Universe

@ghostrider2: Surfer won't resist long against J'onn

@eternityx: Warp Speed is just light speed dude.This is the exact same case when using Wally's nuke feat from Trials on Fire

But that's how he travels in modern continuity though. Feel like a broken record here

You haven't shown Surfer blitzing though

Not really

J'onn is as every bit as durable as Diana

@frozen:

1. Runner didn't blitz Surfer, he outright beat the crap out of him. And if we want to talk about lo showings, well then Wally was tagged by Deathstroke.

2. No it's not. SS has shown nanosecond reaction time and can move in a non straight path easily at high speeds.

3. I'm saying he wasn't using nanosecond speed at the time and you can't prove me wrong. You have no quantifiable speed feats for MMH.

4. Yep so? He can grab MMH and travel back in time with him, then travel back, he's done it before.

5. How do we know that that wasn't a low showing for Spectre as well?

6. SS has resisted Moondragon with the mind gem, who seems to be similar to this Stigmonus.

SS should be able to hold off MMH for a small amount of time telepathically.

Also, how does MH deal with being trapped in SS's board? Or a black hole?

@reaverlation:

1. I've just checked it, warp speed is any speed greater than light. So SS was traveling trillions of times faster than light and the panels do not contradict it.

2. But he doesn't have to, plus he could still use Hyperspace back then, he just chose not to.

3. I have, and I've said it a million times, it's not in his character to blitz. It just wouldn't make for an interesting story because SS would be too fast and the fights would end too quickly because most marvel characters don't have super speed.

4. Well apparently not, you've said Diana tanked a shot from a Galactus level being, when has J'onn ever done that?

5. By the way, have you got a counter for the black hole or board entrapment?

@eternityx: ...Warp Speed is just Light Speed...

Not repeating myself again

You mean bullrush?

J'onn was the last one to fall to an attack from a 6D Imp and still used telepathy before falling.But using these type of feats is stupid and unnecessary so let's not go there please

@frozen:

Spider-Man's speed posed problems for him in combat.

To my knowledge silver surfer has never used his speed on spider-man.

He does have feats like throwing a punch within a nano second and maneuvering an asteroid field at such speeds quasar (who has shown nanosecond reactions) was asking surfer to slow down because he couldn't keep up.

@jashro44: That feat has been used in this thread already and proven wrong

@reaverlation:

1. No it's not, google it. Warp speed is any speed faster than light.

2. Bullrush.... speedblitz... Whatever

3. Ok, but as we've already seen, J'onn can't handle a black hole, whereas SS can easily fight in them.

Plus there's the BFR via time travel, transmutation, manhandling, board trapping etc.

I can't participate in Surfer battles. I just don't get him. I've been here for about 3 years and just do not understand his powers. On paper he should be nearly unbeatable but he gets his ass kicked a lot. I think Thor even thrashed him once.

1. And The Runner's primary superpower is superspeed. How is this a 'low showing'? The Runner is a Flash like character and his speed is better suited to combat. He's one of the fastest character's in Marvel, comparable to Barry Allen. How is that even remotely comparable to Wally getting tagged by a street-leveller? (which btw, are mostly Kid Flash showings)
2. He's shown Nanosecond reactions, not sure how that changes the vast majority of his speed feats are travel related. Dodging objects while flying at fast speeds in travel does not necessitate dodging the punches of an extremely fast character
3. LOL, Barry Allen was almost morals off. And you think he'd be lower than a Nanosecond? A holding back Barry Allen has already shown to be faster than Nanosecond Superman. It makes no sense that Barry would be below Nanosecond
4. Here's the problem: not only does this seem out of character, but MMH is faster in combat and equally as versatile in combat, while having TP to mind-rape Surfer, which negates this last resort
5. Getting TP'd by Martian? It isn't. He mind-wiped DC Earth including MMH. The feat is just to show MMH can force him onto the Astral Plane, it's a high feat for MMH
6. Not really. Moon-Dragon's best feat was IIRC including thousands of planets, Stigmonus is clearly far above that
7. He won't, not given MMH's feats

MMH mind-rapes him, that's how he deals with it.

Can you requote the post in which the feat was proven wrong? And the quasar one as well?

@eternityx: It just says Warp Speed.You can't say how fast Surfer went and that's not what we were talking about in the 1st place with that scan

Not the same thing

Actually he can.Just Diana pulled him out (both surviving a black hole)

Telepathy is all J'onn needs

@jashro44: The scan is post 161.You'd have to keep reading or just read the scan itself

@jashro44:

maneuvering an asteroid field at such speeds quasar (who has shown nanosecond reactions) was asking surfer to slow down because he couldn't keep up.

Not really impressive if we look at feats across the board. Captain Marvel (DC) moved so fast that Wally West wondered whether he had a connection to the Speed Force. And Wally's reactions are Zeptosecond, that does not necessitate Captain Marvel being at that level of reaction.

If we hold the same standard, then MMH fought a near-bloodlust (IIRC) Barry Allen who has Attosecond reactions, which is FAR above Nanosecond.

@frozen: Runner isn't near Barry's or Wally's speed

Barry was bloodlusted. Already posted the scans in a spoiler block a while back

@frozen:

1. The Runner didn't use his speed on SS, he was just more powerful than him.

2. I'm not arguing about him dodging there punches, because he'll laugh off there weak punches, I'm arguing that he bulrushes them before they can do anything, or that he uses transmutation, board trapping, black hole creating etc.

3. Odin was shown to be a Galaxy buster, he was a also pretty angry, did Thanks take Galaxy busting shots?

You can't prove MMH's speed.

4. Prove it. Also, this is morals off SS, so he'll be using a lot more things he doesn't normally use in this battle.

5. Prove it. How can we just assume that against Black Adam it was a low showing but against MMH it isn't?

6. Once again, prove it.

7. Yes he will, but once again, MMH will be too busy getting bullrushed.

This whole argument for MMH is based upon the idea that he is fast enough to use his telepathy on SS, that is literally his only way to win. SS has a bunch of ways to own MMH as I've already

@reaverlation:

1. You can calculate it from the fact that he traveled past Galaxies like they were a blur, so it took him seconds to travel hundreds of thousands of light years.

2. Yes they are.

3. Lol, don't even deny this one. He clearly says in the scan that he can't resist the pull of the Black hole.

4. SS can momentarily resist and finish J'onn off before he gets the chance to use it.

So? Captain Marvel isn't in this thread.

Thats not really the same thing. Yes Barry was bloodlusted but beyond that do we know how fast he was moving? Qausar was asking surfer to slow down because he couldn't maneuver through asteroids as well as silver surfer could. He basically admitted surfer has better reactions.

Also for the record I am not arguing he is faster than martian manhunter or superman I just don't think he's actually slower than them.

Thats not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about these:

Gallery

He's shown other operational feats like searching an entire planet before doctor strange can finish a sentence, blitzing nova, etc. He doesn't use his speed often though because a majority of characters in the marvel universe don't have super speeds and personally I think because surfer is a bit of a pacifist he also doesn't use his speed.

Gallery

I won't say he's faster than them but I don't believe he's actually slower than them either. Not sure if these scans have been posted or not.

@eternityx: (sigh)...all you keep posting is travel speed

No they aren't

But J'onn still took the force of a black hole, especially since J'onn is FTL

Not a chance

Are you talking about this, from The Infinity Crusade #3?

Gallery

Because he's not resisting Moondragon, he's breaking free from the mind control of Goddess. This is actually dramatically more impressive than resisting Moondragon considering Goddess was empowered by the Cosmic Egg.

@jashro44: I know exactly how fast Surfer is.Just J'onn is faster

And Surfer blitzed a Nova with his guard down and Nova doesn't have great reactions to my knowledge and Nova even came back and blitzed Surfer back.

1. I'm pretty sure he did. That's his primary power: speed - his combat speed is more potent for battle than Surfer's
2. Yeah, no. If Surfer won't be dodging his punches, I'm fairly certain the reason won't be that he'll be laughing off attacks from both Superman and MMH. I've been over bullrushes, Surfer isn't trillions xFTL because of bullrushing, he's that fast because of the distance involved, countered transmutation by informing you he has full control over his molecules. How can Surfer transmute someone who can do anything he wants with his own molecular structure? Considering the level of control he has, which is 100%. MMH has T.P (which is nigh-uncounterable) given his power levels and faster combat-speed (which negates Surfer using the less likely tactics)
3. I can understand that you may not believe Barry was fighting in Attosecond range. What I do not understand is that a bloodlust Barry Allen was fighting below Nanosecond. That's garbage speed for Barry. That's like arguing an angry Odin that fought Thanos only used city-busting attacks (which one-shotted Surfer and Drax). Odin may have not used Galaxy busting attacks, and Barry may have not been Attosecond, but for a bloodlust Barry to be below Nanosecond is ridiculous. I brought up the Attosecond feat due to Jashro using the Nanosecond benchark for Quasar
4. Prove what? That he's faster. Here are two feats which are notable - blitzing 4 White Martians, the same White Martians (one would be enough to beat Superman) who trashed the Justice League and fighting on rather equal footing with Flash. Those are two great, applicable speed-feats, they are more applicable than Surfer travelling ____ xFTL distance. MMH's also travelled light-years with his speed over great distances, those feats aren't cited for his fights because he has actual combat applicable speed feats
5. That's like arguing a street-leveller could beat Galactus. The Spectre is a Universal abstract entity, he's recreated The Universe so I know for certain getting hurt by Black Adam is a low showing. As I've told you, the MMH feat isn't low because The Spectre has mind-wiped DC Earth including Martian himself. Martian forcing him onto the Astral plane is to demonstrate that he could atleast do that to a being of such high power + such high TP resistance
6. How can I 'prove it' if you're the one who made the claim of Moondragon = Stigmonus. Stigmonus is a personifcation for all the thoughts in The Universe, that's more in line with Phoenix, rather than Moon Dragon
7. He's not getting bullrushed. It's like arguing Thor can bullrush a character much superior in speed

Surfer doesn't travel trillions xFTL because of ''bull rushing'' - it's the distance involved, more often than not.

MMH has over a dozen of notable TP feats, many TP feats on above Skyfather level linked on Saren's repsect thread. To deny TP and opt for 'Jack of All Trades, Master of None' is rather cheap.

Honestly, I think that's enough evidence.

@fiendish:

Didn't know about that one, cheers for the scan.

@reaverlation:

1. Pretty much are the same thing.

2. But it doesn't matter, he was getting pulled into the black hole and he couldn't do anything about it. This also shows that he isn't faster than light by much.

3. Yes he does.

@jashro44: @pokeysteve: @reaverlation:

All of these guys(outside of Sentry) usually keep their calm, Bloodlust changes everything. I just want to post two things for people interested. I don't know if these have already been posted.

SS & Sentry Official entry.

To be fair to the other team and MM Mind Rape of Despero when MM takes his morals off...

I think someone already posted impressive TP defense for SS, and if John goes into the mind of Sentry, he will find Void just as Emma Frost did. Only reason Void did not take over Frost is because Frost trapped a piece of the Void that infected her into her diamond form. Then Professor X, Cyclops, and Pyslocke had to perform a sort of psychic surgery to get it out.

Even with John's incredible TP feats. SS can resit him & like I said, if he goes into the Sentry's mind...he will find Void which will force him to leave quickly.

Due to overall versatility, SS & Sentry should take the majority over MM & Superman. 9/10 in my humble opinion.

@jashro44:

So? Captain Marvel isn't in this thread.

It's a good analogy.

Thats not really the same thing. Yes Barry was bloodlusted but beyond that do we know how fast he was moving? Qausar was asking surfer to slow down because he couldn't maneuver through asteroids as well as silver surfer could. He basically admitted surfer has better reactions.

It's the exact same thing. Barry was bloodlusted, we know Barry operates at Attosecond and that Nanosecond is in line with the slowest Flashes. Flash had no reason to hold back, MMH matching him in a fight while Barry is utilizing his speed is basically telling you his speed is comparable. That's if you hold the SAME standard for the Qausar feat.