Should we classify durability feats under different categories ?

It is true actually, look at the manga, watch the anime. After the attack Raditz is NOT hurt in the least. The ONLY thing his headbutt did was break his armor and surprise Raditz at such a large power level coming from a toddler.

As for the Armor, you mean this Ki blast that Raditz dodged most of and still damaged his armor?

Or maybe you are talking about this one:

Durability vs Energy Projection (non-magical) =/= Durability vs Energy Projection (magical) =/= Durability vs Striking (non-magical) =/= Durability vs Striking (magical) =/= Durability vs Matter Manipulation =/= Durability vs Piercing/Slashing =/= Damage soak.

They are all somewhat interlinked. There are subsets of energy projection that require more in depth explanation in particular contexts.

@hulkage: Yamcha is stronger then Vegeta in saiyan saga is a planet level guy. That's just obvious lol

Writers will have characters tank area effects far better than they would precision.

Characters who can survive on a world ending explosion may get beaten down by punches. Street levelers who get badly beaten in a fist fight take less damage from being in a building that's blown up.

There is a certain kind of logic to the high tier version, if you get a huge piece of metal and place it in a city then nuke the city depending on the material it could be fairly intact, you then have a saw that can cut through the metal. The saw is not a city busting weapon but it is capable of doing more damage to an object that can tank a nuke.

@randomsid: No. I'm talking about the one in the OP. And also in that same OP you can see Raditz being hurt by the headbutt.

@saint_of_origin: I know what you are talking about which I answered, Gohan when angry is no idiot with Ki, he knows how to fly and raise it when angry. And release blast. Gohan when angry has Ki control, he shown this when he is able to release a blast to begin with, when in trouble, he shows in reactions and everything he knows what he is doing. Problem is he can only access it when in trouble

Since when does making a face equate being hurt? Do yourself a favor and go read the manga and/or watch the anime. The headbutt didn't hurt Raditz in the least.

I can't seem to find the scans from the Manga, but here is the scene in the Anime:

Notice, he wasn't even knocked down from the headbutt.

@randomsid: Aaaand I'm at the end of this rope.Since when does making a face equate being hurt? It's how majority of image based fiction shows pain, besides the actual wound. If you don't think that attack hurt Raditz, then you're a lost cause

Go look at the scene I added into my previous post. You are a lost cause if you think having your armor cracked and not even being knocked down equates being harmed.

And why are people looking down on Kid gohan ? When angry, he is a beast

And Ki does have force, Spirit bomb and Final flash prove this and is said too have enough force to destroy a planet, especially the final flash which can easily destroy earth with force alone. Piccolo attack on the 23rd wiped out a small continent with a shock wave, which Goku tanked while weakened and absorbed it's shock to stop it from spreading.

Piccolo shit his pants on Raditz, which power and force >>>> Piccolo blast on 23rd. If force durability really exist, then Piccolo wouldn't be surprise and just use the same attack base on force and kill Raditz since Gohan head butt is weak. Potency does exist in DBZ

@randomsid: WOW. Scans are easy to find, you just don't want to post them because they contradict your point. That is so intellectually underhanded.

http://m.mangatown.com/manga/dragon_ball/v14/c203/8.html

Raditz looks pretty dang hurt there. So conclusion supported by MANGA: Headbutt hurt Raditz

You are being flagged for that. I said I couldn't find the scans because I couldn't find the scans. I use this site for scans http://www.mangachapter.me/2989/dragon-ball/202-9.html and it was not there. Simple as that. And no, they do NOT contradict anything. He holds his chest for a second then backhands Gohan, yeah, real hurt *eyeroll*. You really need to redefine your idea of being hurt.

Can't believe you're actually saying it didn't hurt him..

You can actually see blood trickle from his mouth, if the overall situation is not painstakingly obvious to you.

@randomsid: Really? You can't go to the millions of manga sites online, find the chapter, and post the scan that I just proved shows Raditz as injured? I did it on my phone, while at work. Why can't you do the same?

@princearagorn1: There is no blood there at all, he staggers, rights himself and backhands Gohan. He isn't hurt in the least. Maybe I just have a bigger idea of pain than you guys. To me hurting him is like Goku laying on the ground over there, not staggering a little.

@princearagorn1: THANK YOU. God...

@randomsid: ...right side of his face. And he's staggering already, as you mentioned, as you expect when a solid hit is landed.

Really? You can't just accept the fact that I couldn't find the scan from the site that I ALWAYS use for DBZ scans when I posted the site so you can check for yourself and it ISN'T there. You want to call me a liar because of your adolescent need to contradict someone and you will be flagged everytime.

And this head butt on Raditz proves what Exactly ? Just remember 23rd budokai and a stronger Piccolo reactions to Raditz taking his blast.

You mean that little shadow that isn't visible in the scan immediately before it? If it was blood it would have been there right after Gohan headbutted him. It isn't blood. It's also not there in the scan right after it when he backhands Gohan. He didn't wipe it away, it didn't magically disappear. It was a simple shadow, not blood.

I guarantee you, if you were looking at a Superman fight and someone hit him and staggered him the exact same way and people claimed it hurt him when it didn't even knock him down you would be calling them an idiot.

You're saying this is the first time we saw blood disappear in the manga? *sigh*

Anyway.

@princearagorn1: Could you provide the link for that scan? Like I said before I use a specific site to get my DBZ scans and it doesn't have that at all. I'd like to see the preceding and the scan right after this one. If he really did say that then I guess Gohans headbutt hurt him a little. Doesn't really matter though because I've already shown that the KI blasts did as well and even did more damage to him than the headbutt.

No idea which site you use. Fox has it..

If he really did say that then I guess Gohans headbutt hurt him a little.

why the 'if', now? He directly says the hit did quite a number on him.

@princearagorn1: This is what I got when I clicked your Link.

Still working fine for me. Anyway, I posted the other missing scans.

And since you were talking about anime, you can see that, correct?

it was quite clearly highlighted there as well.

0:30 - "How could that little brat's attack weaken me so much!?", any dub.

@saint_of_origin: "I can agree that DBZ is an interesting case but do you really think Gohan's headbutt is moon level? It's feats like those (As well as others like Gohan ((and rocks :P)) making Nappa bleed) that raise the question in DBZs universe too."

-I believe that if Gohan's ki hadn't raised first, from his anger, that his kick would not have caused the same results. He didn't become physically stronger via muscle increase or anything, and yet his strength was higher than it would have been otherwise all the same. From this we can conclude that there is a measure of ki involved even in basic fighting (ex: ki focused punch>regular punch, even though the deliver is the same).

Your issue with ki attacks, as much as I hate to share similar views with some other particular viners, ignores attack potency, and you are instead basing your opinion on his aoe. Aoe has almost nothing at all to do with the attack power behind a ki attack in dbz.

All of your grievances here do conform to comicvine standards but you have to understand that Akira Toriyama did not have those standards in mind when he wrote his manga, and if he did his first and foremost objective likely would been to butcher them because DBZ is a parody, as much so as one-punch man. He has much more liberties as far as inconsistency than a work with a more serious theme.

The long and short here, though, is that ki directly impacts physical abilities such as strength, speed, and impact in dbz so as it is, if you try to remove ki from dbz they will be literally featless, as we have no way of telling how much a standard punch is amped by a user's ki. Ergo, ki and physical damage are more or less mutual here.

@thelocust619: I really don't want this discussion to become purely about DBZ but anyway, I'd like to point out that Nappa started bleeding when he collided with the rocks and not when Gohan hit him.

Gallery

You can clearly see the left side of his face bleeding even though Gohan kicked the right side.

@thelocust619: I think you're misunderstanding. I'm not saying to remove ki from the equation, but rather that countless times in the manga, physical attacks have shown to do more damage than they appear to be capable of based on the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of ki blasts of a similar or often greater magnitude. I know that A.T.'s intentions don't match up well with this forum's general way of running, but we have to work with what we have and apply it the best we can.

@mudamudamuda: Well, you can get pierced by even a pizza crust if it's moving fast enough lol. I wouldn't say it was so much the density of the rock that hurt him as much as his velocity from the kick, and again, Akira was likely not considering absolute logical accuracy. He rarely ever does, and as I said he has more liberties to be inconsistent considering Dragonball is was not originally a serious work. I'm absolutely certain he didn't have RPG style spreadsheets on all of his characters' individual resistances, he just did what he wanted to.

However, I agree with this thread, but I'm pretty sure DBZ is the major motivation here. I was in the thread where this became an issue in the first place lol. In most cases, yes, durability is different, but with DBZ I think people are taking it too seriously. IMO when your effort exceeds the writer's, it's time to call it in lol

@saint_of_origin: I'm saying that those physical attacks use ki as well, so itd make sense that they're as effective as they are...not to mention they are more accurate, delivering focused strikes to individual vulnerabilities like the gut or face instead of a mass area.

The issue here is aoe, not potency. For instance, Gohan can have a moon level kick in potency, but if he hit the moon with it it'd just pierce into it because of his lack of aoe. By that logic, though, if his foot were as big as a moon then sure, I don't see why it wouldn't bust the moon because his kick was already stronger than an attack that did so, and now it has the required aoe.

As far as rocks causing damage...that's Akira. In BoG he had Goku flying through the freakin earth like butter, but he had to stop short to avoid a stalactite. These inconsistencies are obviously intended to build tension, otherwise we'd have the same lack of reader investment found in some of the more poorly excecuted superman stories, where he's just invincible at everything and there basically is no threat. Akira has shown two muses: drama and humor. He will even go so far as to break his own rules just to achieve either of those, but Logic is seemingly not so high in his priorities.

@thelocust619:

Well, you can get pierced by even a pizza crust if it's moving fast enough lol. I wouldn't say it was so much the density of the rock that hurt him as much as his velocity from the kick

I'm not sure about that. While it's true that the speed at which you are hit would play a major role on how much damage you will take there are still two factors to consider here. The first being that rocks have a limited durability and the second is that well... we are talking about someone who can easily take multi-moon vaporizing Ki blasts, I simply do not see what kind of speed Gohan kicked him at for his collision to cause so much damage lol

Akira was likely not considering absolute logical accuracy. He rarely ever does, and as I said he has more liberties to be inconsistent considering Dragonball is was not originally a serious work. I'm absolutely certain he didn't have RPG style spreadsheets on all of his characters' individual resistances, he just did what he wanted to.

This is possible, but by that logic DBZ is a terrible debating material...

However, I agree with this thread, but I'm pretty sure DBZ is the major motivation here. I was in the thread where this became an issue in the first place lol. In most cases, yes, durability is different, but with DBZ I think people are taking it too seriously. IMO when your effort exceeds the writer's, it's time to call it in lol

Hehe, that's true as well.

@mudamudamuda: "but by that logic DBZ is a terrible debating material..."

-Yes. Lol

Piccolos Special Beam Canon was fired with the power of 1330 according to Raditz scouter.

http://i2.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/201/dragon-ball-1998219.jpg
And it did noticeable damage to his shoulder

http://i19.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/202/dragon-ball-2092411.jpg
After torturing Goku we see Gohan get enraged and according to Raditz scouter
has obtained a power of 1307. So is it really surprising that Gohan did damage to Raditz?
http://i39.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/203/dragon-ball-68423.jpg

Well, what can I say. lol

@thelocust619: I guess I'll accept that. Applying CV logic to DB characters just isn't very feasible. Because you can't apply the universe logic (or once again, lack thereof) and CV logic at the same time without running into multiple critical logic snags. I concede.

I think we should always know that durability is not a singular thing. Classifications is tricky though. For instance if Superman punches a starship it's not a blunt force attack, but piercing because kinetic strikes are really about surface areas and densities. Energy damage is far trickier because there are more abstract physics involved though most contain some kinetic elements.

Ultimately the best course I think is to make sure we utilize the most similar cases for determining a character's durability against certain attacks is to do what most reasonable debaters have been doing; use the most similar examples possible. Most characters experience a wide variety of attacks and there are usually feats available for comparison. If none are available we use simple reasoning based on the other feats available.

@hulkage: Yamcha can take New 52 Supes, care to debate it?

@precrisisbardock: no because it will be all based off of Yamcha's performance in Other World, which was a PIS moment that had absolutely nothing backing up why it even took place. I'm not even sure that it happened in the manga. And then you'll proceed to tell me Goku did XYZ when he was at this level therefore Yamcha can do XYZ+ because of story progression and power levels. So no I don't want to debate it. Plus I'm currently busy debating others on a similar subject.

@hulkage: Not necessarily, I can prove Yamcha is a FTL Planetbuster and Supes isn't. Honestly the other world feat would just be showing he got way stronger.

I don't understand the issue with Raditz? Most people in DBZ are Ki Manipulators so hitting them with Ki isn't as good an idea as hitting them with physical attacks. It is like Thor hitting Electro with Lightning, Electro isn't going to even flinch even if the blast would normally sunder a mountain.

Basically any time that a Ki Manipulator in DBZ hits another Ki Manipulator with a Ki Blast it is the dumbest possible action. It is literally like Sunfire and Human Torch fighting one another with Fire Blasts. Neither are going to do any real damage to one another unless they use attacks that do not use fire.

DBZ fighters are some of the dumbest fighters in fiction.

Yes, because a punch from a pro boxer and a firecracker may release the same amount of energy, but deal 2 different types of damage. The firecracker would do much more damage if it exploded in my hand.

Blunt Force Durability, Energy Durability (includes heat, because heat is energy), Cutting Durability, ect. They're classified differently. Nevertheless, if a character can survive a planet busting explosion, I find it hard to believe they are being put down by mountain level punch.

You should not because it complicates debates and would guarantee needless bickering over details that 99% of writers don't really account for.

@hewho: And nobody wants a complicated debate? Every debate should be a stomp.

@johnnyz256: Your comment hurts my brain

Attack and Durability are different. However...Superman can get KOed by something as small as a planetary bomb...but yet he can survive in the core of the sun? Which is basically 300 000 planets exploding in his face per second.

We should.

I've always been saying this, it needs to happen for sure