Raiden Vs Vergil

Laughing off Force Edge isn't outlier given what we saw in DMC3. Yes, he was heavily wounded when he was slashed by Yamato and impaled with Rebellion, but that was before he awakened his devil powers. As soon as he did, he was able to recover and do the whole tower dive thing. Later when he fought Vergil again, they were able to slash each other and continue fighting, only slowing down after a decently extended battle.

As for Trish's lightning, honestly his lightning resistance feats throughout the OG DMC game were pretty damn good overall. Which explains how Sparda was able to defeat one of the most powerful demons in the entire setting.

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Eh, I guess. Still, it seemed like there was a power gap even before then. At the very least, Abigail wasn't glowing either during the spike scene, so clearly she wasn't using her full power in that moment either.

@red_ruby_petal said:

@kingcrimson:

If you're referring to speed, Vergil is absolutely faster. Even with you trying to scale speed from gameplay when you've flat out said yourself that the devs don't care, that's still Raiden in blade mode which is a temporary amp and something he can't sustain.

I went over this with you. It doesn't make sense to think Blade Mode is a temporary amp.

@chaos_zelur

When I've played the game he can call it anytime he wants, whenever he wants, whatever he wants even without fuel cells. Having that FC bar is an obvious game mechanic. The Monsoon battled revolved around him having infinite FC yet all that happened was that he turned off his pain inhibitors. He can keep it up indefinitely as that is his combat speed. Blade Mode wasn't introduced before he got the new body and that is when the FC started being brought up. Its a way for the player to gain extra leverage mid game which can be altered per difficulty so obvioussllyyyyyy.... its game mechanics. Funny enough Raiden used blade mode or actually the right term is "zandatsu" right here.

I don't see any FC bar depleted

Or right here when he fights Senator

Or when he starts cutting Excelsus at an indefinite period of time for whatever reason.

Thats just headcanon to think that speed is temporary. Blade mode was the game mechanic.

Yeah its actually called Zandatsu and not blade mode. Blade is the amp that exists in gameplay. Zandatsu is the one that calls for the sign that makes a QTE that Raiden can call upon anytime he wants. Blade Mode in fact was NEVER mentioned up until he got his new body, yet his older body could still make the world look slow in his eyes. If it was a temporary amp, then Raiden would use it more carefully, but he obviously uses it to take his time butchering his enemies.

I made this argument with you before, and I showed you these

@kingcrimson

You didn't even respond much after that. I think the most you brought up last time was that Mistral reacting to Raiden or not is inconsistent, but that is like saying if you get hit by a lightning timer you are no longer a lightning timer. The important part is that she is fully capable of reacting to Raiden.

In fact making sense out of all this, how the hell is Raiden not blitzed yet when the enemies have consistently not moved slow and even countered it. They have consistently displayed speed to match even that of zandatsu.

Moreover Sam possesses the same ability,

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And so did Blade Wolf

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But there was no such thing as a temporary amp when you do the boss fights. Zandatsu's purpose was to lead to QTEs and to show off Raiden's speed and was never used as an amp.

Absolutely agree. This is by no means ever canonically used as a temporary amp. So many bosses are capable of reacting and countering it to a point its just silly to think that way. Raiden has 50+ QTEs that don't use blade mode so it doesn't make sense that it was ever used as an amp, otherwise we would be seeing like trump card shiz. The fact the ability to perceive things in slow motion existed before he got his new body all the more contradicts this. Its just a way for the player to use it outside of perfect parries and quick time events.

@chaos_zelur: Wait I realized zandatsu wasn't the right term since thats the cut and take. Its still called blade mode but it isn't utilized the same way. The real blade mode is when you slow everything down after a counter, a perfect parry or a QTE which still happens in the previous body. The blade mode that consumes FC when there is no QTE or whatever is the game mechanics one.

@red_ruby_petal: @chaos_zelur: I'll reply to both your posts in full, but how does it not make any sense to think blade mode is a temporary amp? Doktor states that you can increase your speed by utilising up a kind of bio-fuel that you can take from any military cyborg. The kind that increases your blade mode metre and *gasp* increases your speed drastically. There's even a canonical explanation for how its used, and why the "mechanic" is there. You need the fuel to inrease your reactions and speed seeing as you're a cyborg.

If there are instances outside this that you've quoted, then sure I'll take a look and review my stance, but quit it with the "hur dur so stupid to think blade mode is temporary".

@kingcrimson:

I'll reply to both your posts in full, but how does it not make any sense to think blade mode is a temporary amp? Doktor states that you can increase your speed by utilising up a kind of bio-fuel that you can take from any military cyborg. The kind that increases your blade mode metre and *gasp* increases your speed drastically. There's even a canonical explanation for how its used, and why the "mechanic" is there. You need the fuel to inrease your reactions and speed seeing as you're a cyborg.

Then explain this, how is it that Doktor only mentions fuel cells an amping your speed in post new cyborg body when he clearly possessed this ability even before he got the newer body.

THIS IS EVEN MENTIONED BY DOKTOR HIMSELF. You can do it without fuel cells.

Where are the fuel cells in that? He didn't need fuel cells to do any of this. That was just one contradiction, what about the other things that happen in game the serve as a contradiction to it being a temporary amp that I mentioned to you past threads. Reread what we just wrote. We have like an exponential amount of evidence as opposed to when you have one which is already contradicted by another codec conversation. In fact what Doktor says about blade mode is more akin to MGS saying press the square button to reload.

To even think this a temporary amp has more contradictions than to think that it isn't.

@kingcrimson: Lets treat blade mode and Raiden's base speed as 2 different things. Lets follow your logic and here are the results.

Raiden can't tag Monsoon in blade mode

But he can tag him outside of blade mode

Raiden can't go up Senator's face in blade mode

Yet he is perfectly capable of matching him face to face without it

Mistral can counter Raiden in blade mode

But she can't counter base Raiden?

So what is the obvious conclusion. Base mode Raiden >>>> Blade mode Raiden. Hmmmmmmmm

@red_ruby_petal: Coulda sworn they were different terms. Yeah the whole fuel cells shenanigans are all game mechanics since he could do this without fuel cells since the beginning of the game. Its altered through game mechanics like difficulty or upgrades but there isn't enough consistency or anything that supports the idea that its limited. We never once saw Raiden have this issue in either cutscenes or QTEs. All we got was Doktor talking about it and thats it. Same goes with some codecs explaining how rations immediately fill up your health.

Hell its even stranger that Ripper Mode consumes fuel cells. Raiden only deactivated his pain inhibitors, yet somehow needs to consume fuel and Ripper Mode isn't even canonically used as an amp but a moral boost. He kept it off throughout the game too, so that would mean that he would have already lost all his fuel cells and couldn't move on in the game. Its a codec and mechanic that contradicts what actually happened in the game.

@red_ruby_petal: Now you're just being disingenuous.

You know full well that you're also able to tag every single one of those characters in blade mode, so you're selecting certain evidence to suit your case. The Minstral GIF for instance happens if you hit the wrong part of her staff - that's gameplay mechanics, not an actual feat.

@kingcrimson:

Now you're just being disingenuous.

You know full well that you're also able to tag every single one of those characters in blade mode, so you're selecting certain evidence to suit your case.

This doesn't address anything. You are able to tag them in blade mode, so what!!??? They can also counter you in that mode, THATS THE POINT. I am not giving a matter of what Raiden can/can't do, I am giving a matter of what HIS ENEMIES can do. Can this be any clearer to you? Are you just gonna ignore the fact that Senator, Monsoon, Mistral, and Sundowner, have all reacted or been able to counter Blade Mode simply because it happens in game? So Senator catching Raiden's blade in between his fingers in blade mode is also not an actual feat?

How is this so difficult to understand? There is nothing disingenuous from what I said. You are the disingenuous one here.

The Minstral GIF for instance happens if you hit the wrong part of her staff - that's gameplay mechanics, not an actual feat.

The Mistral GIF happens because it requires you to actually cut a weak point of her staff cutting it in the process and disarming her. By not cutting her staff, you are giving her time in Blade Mode, to actually counter you. Thats her feat because because the message is clear that is can react to you in blade mode. By saying its not an actual feat means that you are going to disregard the idea of her not actually countering him.

@red_ruby_petal:

You were trying to present evidence for a case where Raiden was faster without Blade Mode than he is with it, by providing evidence of when he tagged opponents in base VS him being unable to in BM, even though they can all be tagged in blade mode, and they can all react to his attacks in base too.

So Senator catching Raiden's blade in between his fingers in blade mode is also NOT AN ACTUAL FEAT!!!!!! Just why.

I never mentioned the senator. He's the only exception out of the characters you mentioned.

The Mistral GIF happens because it requires you to actually cut a weak point of her staff cutting it in the process and disarming her. By not cutting her staff, you are giving her time in Blade Mode, to actually counter you. Thats her feat because because the message is clear that is can react to you in blade mode. By saying its not an actual feat means that you are going to disregard the idea of her not actually countering him.

The counter doesn't happen through speed, it's because of a mistake on the players part and the game punishes you for it.

@kingcrimson:

You were trying to present evidence for a case where Raiden was faster without Blade Mode than he is with it, by providing evidence of when he tagged opponents in base VS him being unable to in BM, even though they can all be tagged in blade mode, and they can all react to his attacks in base too.

Ok now this getting out of hand. I was defending Raiden not having blade mode as a temporary amp, now you come off making this pointless argument of he can tag them in base and blade mode stuff.

So its pretty clear now that he is just as fast in base as he is in blade mode, in fact there is no such thing as base mode anyway.

I never mentioned the senator. He's the only exception out of the characters you mentioned.

Monsoon not being tagged by Blade Mode, and Sundowner moving normally in it?

The counter doesn't happen through speed,

Counters need speed to be counters. If an anime character counters another character in a sword fight, its pretty clear they can keep up with them. What you are saying doesn't make sense.

it's because of a mistake on the players part and the game punishes you for it.

The game punishes you through Mistral. You aren't explaining how she doesn't get the feat. The counter is there to portray what happens if Raiden doesn't cut that specific part of the weapon to break it, so Mistral counters it and punishes you.

Vergil ftw still.

R2 DMC team stomps.

@kingcrimson: ok what now? I dont get how Mistral doesnt get a feat she just did in the scan there. At the very least she reacted to it.

Not to be rude but... What kind of arguments are those?

@kingcrimson: Seriously if you are going to try to present an argument then you are going to have to quote all our points. These are all important because there is too many contradictions than just bosses. The contradictions actually happen throughout the game and they are CONSISTENT contradictions.

Choose to open the spoiler block or not, this pretty much sums up all the contradictions presented.

Contradiction 1: Fuel Cells

Fuel Cells didn't exist up until he got his newer body, yet he still clearly possessed the ability to see things in slow motion.

Video 1: Doktor mentions that all you had to do is parry and you can slow down perception while you are at it.

Video 2: Parrying does indeed slow down your perception. The biggest part is that NO FUEL CELLS were involved.

And thinking about it, Metal Gear has a knack for saying press the square button to do this in codecs. They only wanted to give an explanation for what is just a game mechanic. IIRC they say Snake can recover health from rations because of the nutrition. The same can pretty much apply to Rising for FC being a thing. Its merely a game mechanic for mid game not QTE blade mode.

CONTRADICTION 2: Ripper Mode

The only thing that happened on ripper mode is that Raiden told Doktor to turn off his pain inhibitors.

So how does that constitute as amp? You know what else is strange? Throughout the entire fight, he possessed INFINITE FC. So Doktor says Raiden needs FC to perform these things right? He gets FC by acquiring it from energy sources. Strange, he got an unlimited supply here.

You know what else, Ripper Mode uses your FC. How has Raiden not lost his FC when he clearly kept it off for half of the entire game.

Contradiction 3: Sam and Wolf also have Blade Mode

Where was that ever in the boss fights? How come they never used their so called "temporary amps"

None of this is temporary. This is just their actual speed. I would have seen things like "here is my trump card" kind of things but no. They've always treated it as if it was there consistent speed.

Contradiction 4: He can get FC from nowhere.

Why does he get another bar of FC from just 1 swing

Why does he suddenly go from 0 to full when he wants to butcher Sundowner

He doesn't even use FC yet slow down time here

Contradiction 5: Raiden consumes FC to take his sweet time butchering things when he doesn't need to.

Pretty much blade mode is just there so players can enjoy butchering things, and Raiden uses it when he feels like it. Just like the Sundowner instance I mentioned.

Contradiction 6: Bosses can counter/react to Blade Mode

Sundowner can clearly move normally in blade mode. If blade mode was temporary, how was Raiden not blitzed by him yet?

Lets treat blade mode and Raiden's base speed as 2 different things.

Raiden can't tag Monsoon in blade mode

But he can tag him outside of blade mode

Raiden can't go up Senator's face in blade mode

Yet he is perfectly capable of matching him face to face without it

Mistral can counter Raiden in blade mode

But she can't counter base Raiden?

So what is the obvious conclusion. Base mode Raiden >>>> Blade mode Raiden. Hmmmmmmmm

In Conclusion

Blade mode is not a temporary amp

Now for Vergil vs Raiden, you are trying to make an argument that Raiden can only keep up with him temporarily.

So in other words, you are trying display a weakness of Raiden that NEVER happened in the whole game. You absolutely CANNOT apply this to the battle when it NEVER applied to Raiden in HIS OWN GAME.

@red_ruby_petal: Sure, but not today. It’s Christmas lol.

@kingcrimson: Christmas passed in my country, Merry Christmas

@red_ruby_petal: Merry Christmas mate :)

@kingcrimson: And I've had like 2 Christmas parties, which is tiring, will get a 3rd one soon. :/

@red_ruby_petal: @kingcrimson:

Vergil still wins.

@chaos_zelur: ?

@kingcrimson: still waiting for your counter argument m8. Well mostly to see how your debate with Ruby unfolds, since he she seems to know more than I do in Rising lol.

@kingcrimson: That said if there is going to be a weakness of Raiden you think will occur in this fight like having a temporary amp, then you are going to have to prove it by an occurrence in his own game. Really it wouldn't make sense that parrying is how you can stun Monsoon whereas blade mode was rendered obsolete.

@chaos_zelur: Sure. Will respond soon. Ruby is a girl by the way.

@red_ruby_petal: No probs, will make sure I address that when I respond.

@kingcrimson: Oh ok lol.

Vergil

@kingcrimson: As of current, Vergil should stomp, but like I remembered you said you were gonna reply here.

@red_ruby_petal: Yeah I was mate, but my opinions have changed since we last spoke.

I think... *gulp*... I’ve accepted Raiden’s in-game feats as legit. With that said, I still think Vergil would have beaten him without DMC5 feats, if we scale him to Dante.

@kingcrimson:

Though the only great feat I remember in DMC 3 was the reentry feat. Then goes Quicksilver which was never countered.

@red_ruby_petal: I’m talking about scaling him to DMC 1 era Dante (through his time as Nelo Angelo), who has a couple of possibly shady lightning timing feats.

@kingcrimson: They're not shady, pretty sure its of intention. Anyways doesn't seem like we'll disagree here.

@red_ruby_petal: The only one I think was 100% intentional was from the anime, but I suppose it depends how picky you’re being.

@regnierofhexter: wrong Raiden

R1 I'd say Raiden 8 times out of 10. He swings hard and fast. I truly believe he could remove Virgil's head before his healing factor can save him.

R2 Dante and Virgil just because Dante is there.

Raiden

Assuming this is still DMC3 Vergil(Obviously as of DMC5 he casually stomps this fight), I just basically think it comes down to Vergil having a bigger margin of error with his insane healing factor, and he can pester with swords. One guy basically has to be perfect because his limbs aren't coming back if he gets hit. With his swords formations I think Vergil can play it more defensively

The skill/experience gap between DMC3 Vergil and MGR Raiden should be considerable.

Both have been fighting since they were young but Raiden is like 33-38 in Rising give or take and has been trained to kill since he was a literal child soldier in the first Liberian civil war by Solidus Snake.

That being said Yamato is just too OP due to its supernatural properties. Vergil can just air slash in his direction or lock blades and Raiden would be split in two.

Vergil kills Raiden and solostomps the entire Metal Gear verse

Vergil would effortlessly curbstomp the MGRR verse while sleeping. Mismatch.

Raiden has arguably better strength and speed. But Vergil is better in all other stats and has the far more potent abilities.

Vergil annihilates.