vs.
Morals off
Random encounter
Both start 30 ft away
Punisher has an M16 (3 round burst) with 2 30 round box magazines and 2 1911 .45 caliber colts with 2 clips each 2 flashbang, 1 C4, and 2 fragmentation grenade. He has his Kevlar vest.
Jason has 2 full auto handguns with 3 clips each, his all blades, 2 flashbang batarangs, 1 tear gas batarang, 2 timed explosive batarangs, 10 regular batarangs, and his standard body armor and "hood" .
Fight takes place here
Depends on their equipment. Frank doesn't have "standard" gear, he brings whatever gear he deems appropriate for the threat he's facing. However, since he's in Gotham in search of Batman, and he has morals off, that would imply that he's carrying some seriously heavy duty equipment.
I'll go with Frank, although I'm willing to hear arguments for Jason.
Red Hood takes it in a good fight. Both are pretty skilled with firearms but the second it turns into a hand to hand fight, which is probably pretty quickly in this scenario, Jason is going to out class Frank in every attribute.
I'd say Frank is the more accurate of the two with firearms. In every Red Hood thread I've clicked on, not once have I seen him being given particular credit for his marksmanship. I'm not saying he isn't accurate, I just don't see him being on Frank's level of precision.
As I understand it, Jason has bulletproof armor and a bulletproof mask. Does this protect him from armor piercing rounds too? And what kind of protection does it give him from explosives. Does it help him against flashbangs/stun grenades at all either? Because based on the OP, these are the types of projectiles Frank would be packing here, and he's liable to use them. Not to mention he's incredibly tactical in his use of equipment, more so than Red Hood based on what I've seen of him thus far.
Even then, I don't see Red Hood outclassing Frank in unarmed in the slightest. For a start, submarine punching feat aside, what makes Jason any stronger than Frank? Frank's traded blows and grapples with Daredevil on the regular, and Matt himself has tipped a limo full of people. More so, Frank has done things like kick Ma Gnucci like 20 feet away off the ground, after her arms and legs had been cut off. Still, kicking a torso and head like a football requires a good bit of strength. He's also casually hoisted your average guy into the air with one arm a few times now, and has ragdolled a squad of SHIELD agents with his bare hands.
As for durability, no brainer this should go to Frank unless I'm missing something. Guy goes through all kinds of punishment (pardon the pun) without laying down. Bullet wounds don't stop him, he's fought on with a broken leg before twice, and he's even survived six straight .44 rounds to the chest, with his armor only barely saving him. That was in addition to one uzi round that had penetrated his armor prior, and one that the armor stopped. He's been punched through a wall by Anti-Venom and got back up, and has even let Daredevil beat him to a pulp before because he didn't want to fight him (and Matt is both incredibly strong and skilled as a fighter). Another fun fact is that Frank actually trains himself to slam his head off of concrete. I'm not kidding. In The Armory Frank talks about how he has trained himself to slam his skull off of concrete ground without it phasing him, in order to avoid something worse like a broken bottle or bat. You actually see this follow through in one of his fights with Bullseye where they slam eachother's faces into the ground numerous times to no avail. Frank is renowned for his borderline superhuman toughness and absurd tolerance for pain. It's what allows him to punch out of his weight class against skilled fighters on the regular.
I'd be willing to give Jason an edge in speed, but then seeing as Frank has dodged automatic machine gun fire nigh-instantaneously from three SWAT gunners, I fail to see how the edge could be particularly large.
Furthermore, Frank's fighting skill isn't to be underestimated either. He's non-lethally incapacitated several squads of SWAT officers, ragdolled numerous SHIELD agents, slaughtered two SWAT/military squads of gunmen with just a knife, even though they had him dead to rights with numerous machine guns. He's given Daredevil a serious run for his money and is usually depicted as being able to do so, and Matt is someone both faster, more skilled and far more reactive than Jason. And even though characters like Matt tend to get the better of Frank, and on-paper should outclass him, it's his absurd level of durability that allows him to hang in there. He'll take four, five punches, a nerve strike, and then return it all back to you in one blow.
And then you need to factor in a couple of things that he doesn't have aiding him in his fights with Daredevil that he does have here.
A good example of this was when Frank fought Daken. Enhanced physical stats, highly commendable fighting skill. Yet Frank, with a broken leg, was able to stand up to Daken in CQC, by using his knife, dirty fighting tactics and firearms. He left Daken dead to rights had it not been for his healing, in a sewer, when he blasted him with a skrull pistol. Later, he held his own by biting Daken, tanking Daken's slashes and stabs through sheer willpower, shooting him in CQC and through general fighting ability. Daken on-paper should have slaughtered Frank, but the fact is Frank has a few unique advantages that allowed him to land numerous killing blows on the healing mutant.
Jason is neither as fast as either Daredevil or Daken, not as skilled as Daredevil, can't heal like Daken, and will be subject to not only Frank's morals off fighting style which is incredibly formidable, but also his precision accuracy, dirty fighting tactics, combat knives as well as highly powerful flash/stun hybrid grenades and armor piercing rounds.
Again, I'm willing to hear an argument for Red Hood, but I'm pretty certain Frank can take him.
I agree with that statement, though the fight is going to turn into hand to hand rather quickly due to the OP.
Oh yeah, Jason has to confront him. You're right then, still I would take Frank in a battle of guns, knives and whatever else you can get your hands on.
Well in death of the family, Jason took a flash bang or some variant of a flash bang at point blank range from Tim Drake. Even being dazed and stunned by the flash bang, he was still able to fight Tim Drake on even par without even seeing him. I don't think Punisher's flashbangs are any different than Tim Drake's, so the same outcome would happen here.
Well, over 20 years ago Frank had access to these puppies:
Pulling the pin and blasting out 170 dBs of noise and 2.3 million candlepower is about like having the Space Shuttle engine go off in your face.
Now, candlepower is an obsolete measurement nowadays, but 170 dBs is more or less enough to bust your ear drum, and the comparison Frank made to the Space Shuttle is also particularly telling of how potent these things are. And one can only assume that 20+ years later, Frank would have obtained superior models to these things. The fact they not only blind but also disorientate the target makes them far more formidable than a standard flashbang or a standard stun grenade. If Frank wanted to widen the distance he need only drop a couple of these infront of Jason and then take off into the shadows. This could potentially open him up for a stab or some other type of assault. I doubt it'd be that simple, but it's something to consider anyway.
I dont know. From what I've seen from Jason, he was able to tank a laser in under the Red Hood with virtually no damage. Also, Batman slams him through a couple walls, some ceramic tile, a sink, and various other objects all of which seemed to do little damage to him. If anything, I'd say that they are about even in terms of durability, as both can be knocked out or killed with bullets regardless, though that won't be the deciding factor in this fight.
The laser would be due to his armor, although his armor would help against Frank nonetheless. But yeah, at face value Jason is also pretty durable. I would still say that Frank has an advantage there though - it's kind of his forte. And it's what allows him to stand up to foes like Daredevil and Daken where normally they'd cream him.
I don't really know all to much about the Punisher, so I can't really de bunk and feats or stats you are providing. I just think that Jason has better training when it comes down to it. He's been trained by Batman, the All Caste, and the League of Assassins. That alone should put him above Punisher's hand to hand talent. As well as if we are using standard gear here, then Jason is going to have Tamarian armaments, the All Blades, tasers capable of killing someone, and an inter-dimensional teleporter that he could use as he sees fit. But like I said, I think it's going to come down to a purely hand to hand engagement, where Jason would have the upperhand.
On-paper Jason would be more skilled than Frank, and maybe he is slightly. But evidently that isn't all there is in a fight. Frank's fighting style isn't too intricate, but he's still seriously effective. He knows how to target weak areas and break bones. He'll go for your eyes, balls or just bite chunks off of you. He's shown grappling skill against Daredevil himself. When you factor in his durability, and overall fighting ability and tenacity, he should be able to beat Jason. He makes up for raw knowledge, technique and training with experience, determination and simple, crude effectiveness.
The All Blades would allow Jason to win, aha. I hear they cut through virtually anything so he has Frank beat there. Frank has shown resistance to electric attacks before so I doubt tasers would be his downfall, and he also carries his own tasers from time to time which IIRC go up to something like 100,000 volts after he modified them. A teleporter is also pretty useful and isn't something Frank has much experience with.
So, I figure Jason can win with his more extravagant armaments, but with only conventional weaponry, I personally see Frank as the winner.
@daredevil21134: I really doubt Kara was going full force, and the All Blades are indestructible so theres that.
Even if she was going half strength that's still really impressive and he still kills Castle easily anyways.Not to mention he can also fire energy blast from the swords.And he has that technique Talia taught him
Scans? I believe you but I'd like to see them,and IIRC that technique only works on those mystic Untitled guys,I doubt Frank will just fall apart like that if Jason uses it on him.
I'm gonna read the issue again to make sure but you might be right on the untitled thing
Oh yeah...I remember that Shiva thing is stupid.
Not really. Its not like he stomped her in a H2H fight, he just dodged some attacks, and pressure pointed her. Its still as impressive as hell, but not to the point of stupidity or PIS.
It sounds like PIS. He beat her in a page which is a stomp IMO. Not to mention who did Jason ever beat that was on par with lady shiva?
Has anyone got the scans? Because I vaguely remember from months ago that Jason pressure pointed her while she was distracted or something to that effect. Could be totally off here, that's just what I remember. I also remember that apparently they had a more straight up encounter where Shiva was winning? I dunno.
Oh yeah...I remember that Shiva thing is stupid.
Not really. Its not like he stomped her in a H2H fight, he just dodged some attacks, and pressure pointed her. Its still as impressive as hell, but not to the point of stupidity or PIS.
It sounds like PIS. He beat her in a page which is a stomp IMO. Not to mention who did Jason ever beat that was on par with lady shiva?
Has anyone got the scans? Because I vaguely remember from months ago that Jason pressure pointed her while she was distracted or something to that effect. Could be totally off here, that's just what I remember. I also remember that apparently they had a more straight up encounter where Shiva was winning? I dunno.
Sounds like they tried to play it up as Jason cheating. He said he was given a few short cuts to defeat her, and that shiva told him he could never win hand to hand:
I'm not familiar with the fight he lost. I've only seen this one scan.
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