Meruem vs Younger Toguro

With the idiocy present above one could argue something like every human size character in manga being the size of a Large Country or every planet in manga being the size of a large mountain because they look visually similar in size to Beerus and Champa/this planet, since apparently inconsistent and eyeballed estimation of visuals somehow have any sort of diction on the size of things completely different manga from completely different artists:

Some of the most astounding lack of common sense I've seen on the internet and I just joined this forum. What takes precedence is the most consistent and grounded artistic depiction of the Bodhavista in Hunter x Hunter's own manga and Togashi's own pen only and not Attack on Titan or live action Godzilla fan guidebooks in which it is consistently in the ballpark of 100 meters.

Yikes.

@dogfighter90:

Again, you're missing my point and repeating the same premise. Illustrated sizes are literally never 100% consistent with author intended sizes. Even worse is that you intend on comparing sizes in animated/drawn series which is a false equivalence. Here's an example.

But every single drawn of the buddah shows it being way smaller than 100 meters and it has no confirmed size, so how the hell are you going to try and disagree with me using every piece of drawn evidence to show that size being BS?

Are you going to tell me that animators had heights in mind when illustrating this? What makes it egregious is that you're comparing sizes from different series which makes this even more muddy.

Again, you are taking confirmed sizes and showing drawing inconsistencies. There is no confirmed size in this case and every single drawn picture of it has it way under 100 meters.

So please, tell me what are you arguing again? Are you saying it's ok to just make up large sizes for things and use that to high ball because you feel like it? Are you trying to argue it's over 100 meters because drawings are inconsistencies and we might as well make up a big size for it?

You realize how stupid this shit is to use?

Of course, if I was using it to dispute confirmed sizes or using a few inconsistent panels. Again, there is no confirmed size, and every picture ever drawn of it has it looking way less than 100 meters, so why the hell should we consider it 100 meters?

And you realize how dumb it sounds for you to say we should never use visuals to judge size? Should we just ignore all feats now because drawings are inconsistent? Is an explosion the size of a mountain not mountain level because drawings can be inconsistent? Just stop. The only bade example I brought up was the AOT picture because that might not have been drawn to scale well, but everything else I brought up was fine.

@alextheboss: I never made arguments for the Buddha, I was just telling you how your claims were completely shitty because you were making false equivalences. Using different series to confirm sizes is completely asinine. You can't prove that Godzilla is to scale with the Bodhisvatta, it's completely preposterious. The first 3 paragraphs is just you misinterpreting and arguing against thinugs that I've never said.

And you realize how dumb it sounds for you to say we should never use visuals to judge size?

I never said that we shouldn't use visuals to judge size. This entire reply has been nothing but strawman arguments. What I said was that you're comparing two series with vastly different sizes which is fallacious.

Should we just ignore all feats now because drawings are inconsistent? Is an explosion the size of a mountain not mountain level because drawings can be inconsistent?

These aren't claims I made. I specifically used characters because they were the topic. Quit your red herrings and strawmans.

@alextheboss:

I just looked up a calc for Meruem's feat for destroying that hill and it was small city level.

I mean, it being small city level is nearly outshined by the various calcs that put it far beyond that range. Out of all the calcs, I don't know how you only found small city level results, when there are constant revisions that make the feat way above that, like here, or here that uses a low-end and high-end, and Vs Battle themselves making changes in the calculation that got small city level shown in HxH's re-tiering.

I don't know what makes you say a "simple" nuke can't take him out when nukes can do far more damage than what both the rose and Meruem has shown

Literally, all wrong, not even a 5 megaton nuke can do what the Rose Bomb can do because nukes usually have a weak fireball that barely extends a kilometer, unlike the rose bomb which was detonated hundreds of meters underground, cratering an area by it merely rising and you cannot sit here and tell me a simple nuke can do what the Rose Bomb can do when our nukes range from 1.5 megatons and no more, the Rose Bomb's power dwarfs that by a considerable amount. The difference between a 1 megaton nuke and a 5 megaton nuke is large let alone the Rose Bomb's yield.

Anyways, Toguro still probably wins. I think Meruem can probably make him go 100% though.

Nah, Meruem dies to 80% Toguro, much less 100. Toguro at 80% no-selled a suppressed Yusuke's spirit gun that busted a distant mountain. Not to mention, Yusuke took the heat of a dwarf star condensed to a small volume which such heat over a wide area can turn towns to ash, inside his body, mind you. They're probably around the same speed tier though.

@dogfighter90:

I never made arguments for the Buddha, I was just telling you how your claims were completely shitty because you were making false equivalences. Using different series to confirm sizes is completely asinine. You can't prove that Godzilla is to scale with the Bodhisvatta, it's completely preposterious. The first 3 paragraphs is just you misinterpreting and arguing against thinugs that I've never said.

Bro, that wasn't an actual picture of Godzilla from the movie, it was a scale someone made that was actually supposed to be scaled properly to his official height next to a human. It's not like I used a pic from Godzilla from the movie and tried to use a perspective shot. You could have literally ignored the godzilla picture and just used the lines on the side to look at how tall 100 meters is next to a human.

I never said that we shouldn't use visuals to judge size. This entire reply has been nothing but strawman arguments. What I said was that you're comparing two series with vastly different sizes which is fallacious.

I only ever did that in my first post, my second post didn't use a picture from a different series, so either you are weird and brought up the same argument twice even though I never did it again, or that was your argument and I'm not being fallacious.

These aren't claims I made. I specifically used characters because they were the topic. Quit your red herrings and strawmans.

Then you are a weirdo who brought up me using scans from another series twice even though I admitted that wasn't the best choice and never did again after that first post.

I literally knew you were going to call me out for strawmanning while writing my post, which is how far ahead of you I am. Of course I'll "starwman" you when your whole argument is a false accusation. Stop trying to act smart when you seemingly think using a size scale which just happens to be using a fictional character from another series is the same as using a scan or picture from another series.

@pics:

I mean, it being small city level is nearly outshined by the various calcs that put it far beyond that range.

Even ignoring the calcs, which aren't official and can easily be wrong, he didn't even destroy the entire hill, which wasn't even mountain sized. I don't see how you can argue partially destroying a hill should be anything more than city level.

Out of all the calcs, I don't know how you only found small city level results, when there are constant revisions that make the feat way above that, like here, or here that uses a low-end and high-end, and Vs Battle themselves making changes in the calculation that got small city level shown in HxH's re-tiering.

Their current placement for Meruem is small city to maybe city.

Literally, all wrong, not even a 5 megaton nuke can do what the Rose Bomb can do because nukes usually have a weak fireball that barely extends a kilometer, unlike the rose bomb which was detonated hundreds of meters underground, cratering an area by it merely rising and you cannot sit here and tell me a simple nuke can do what the Rose Bomb can do when our nukes range from 1.5 megatons and no more, the Rose Bomb's power dwarfs that by a considerable amount. The difference between a 1 megaton nuke and a 5 megaton nuke is large let alone the Rose Bomb's yield.

You know a kilometer is 1,000 meters right? How does making a fire ball which is a few hundred kilometers by your admission make it above a nuke? And the biggest nuke is 58 megatons, not 5.

Nah, Meruem dies to 80% Toguro, much less 100. Toguro at 80% no-selled a suppressed Yusuke's spirit gun that busted a distant mountain. Not to mention,

We can't see if the mountain was actually destroyed, a smoke cloud is blocking the damage. If the mountain was really destroyed he would win at 80%. If the explosion was just the size of a mountain and the mountain wasn't fully destroyed, it could probably go either way.

Yusuke took the heat of a dwarf star condensed to a small volume which such heat over a wide area can turn towns to ash, inside his body, mind you.

That kind of seems like an exaggeration.

@alextheboss:

Alex, at this point the calculations hold more validity than anything you've said so far in this thread, you simply appeal to opinion rather than what's literally blatantly in front of you. Who cares if he didn't destroy the hill, he vaporized a large chunk which yielded city level results, how does that have any relevancy to what was destroyed. Are you going to use the lack of DC as proof against of it not yielding said results?

Again, if only you did more research. Meruem's current placement is admittedly wrong and going to be revised sooner or later as the mods that revised certain HxH feats upgrading Meruem's tier to City level to Mountain level, but the revision is still going on. In any case, so what if they do have Meruem at City level, they used to have Yonkos at Large Mountain level.

Hold on, Hold on. Did you not read what I said? I never said anything above the Rose Bomb being hundreds of meters in diameter, I said it rised from such height simultaneously cratering the ground as it awakened. Also you're misreading my arguments again, when did I say a 5 megaton nuke is the highest nuke ever? I said the difference between a 1 megaton nuke and a 5 megaton nuke is large, let alone the Rose which yields a consistent 10 megaton tier. Like bro.

The smoke cloud is in replacement of the Mountain, that wide extension is part of said Mountain range where said blast can be extending further than a good portion of just one Mountain. If 80% Toguro was Mountain level, how would he win? That doesn't even remotely add up. Yusuke spirit gun is stated to hold power than any potent weapon on earth so we know for a FACT nothing on earth can rival his spirit gun, so why would Toguro beat Yusuke for being Mountain level?

Wow, apparently Genkai stating her aura is a condensed dwarf star is an exaggeration which she's literally one of the most intelligent characters in the series and has never boasted about her power before. Like that makes any sense. It's not an exaggeration hint hint.

@pics:

Alex, at this point the calculations hold more validity than anything you've said so far in this thread,

Except there are calcs that say conflicting things...

you simply appeal to opinion rather than what's literally blatantly in front of you.

I'm going what's in front of me. Busting a hill or vaping a portion of it isn't above city level.

Who cares if he didn't destroy the hill, he vaporized a large chunk which yielded city level results, how does that have any relevancy to what was destroyed. Are you going to use the lack of DC as proof against of it not yielding said results?

There is no proof he vaporized anything in the manga. In the anime it does look like vaporization, but he didn't vaporize nearly that entire thing, actually only a fraction of the hill. The calcs you are using are trying to use the entire hill, which isn't even correct.

Again, if only you did more research. Meruem's current placement is admittedly wrong and going to be revised sooner or later as the mods that revised certain HxH feats upgrading Meruem's tier to City level to Mountain level, but the revision is still going on. In any case, so what if they do have Meruem at City level, they used to have Yonkos at Large Mountain level.

That re tiering thing you posted was done months ago and there are multiple comments in that thread calling out problems, so just because some guy calced it again, doesn't mean the site will accept that, not that VS battle wiki is usually right in the first place, as they usually highball things.

Hold on, Hold on. Did you not read what I said? I never said anything above the Rose Bomb being hundreds of meters in diameter, I said it rised from such height simultaneously cratering the ground as it awakened. Also you're misreading my arguments again, when did I say a 5 megaton nuke is the highest nuke ever? I said the difference between a 1 megaton nuke and a 5 megaton nuke is large, let alone the Rose which yields a consistent 10 megaton tier. Like bro.

10 megatons is low on the city tier in VS battle wiki, and would still be nuke level. You seemed to be claiming it was above nuke level. Are you saying that isn't the case? I agree the rose is nuke level, so if you do to we are on agreement on that.

The smoke cloud is in replacement of the Mountain,

It's in the same spot, but it could be in replacement or just in front of it.

that wide extension is part of said Mountain range where said blast can be extending further than a good portion of just one Mountain. If 80% Toguro was Mountain level, how would he win? That doesn't even remotely add up. Yusuke spirit gun is stated to hold power than any potent weapon on earth so we know for a FACT nothing on earth can rival his spirit gun, so why would Toguro beat Yusuke for being Mountain level?

Can I see this statement saying Yusuke's spirit gun at that point is stronger than any human weapon? If that's true it would make it above large nuke level, but even the biggest nuke is still city level. So it would make it at least large city to small mountain level, but we can't say much more than that.

Wow, apparently Genkai stating her aura is a condensed dwarf star is an exaggeration which she's literally one of the most intelligent characters in the series and has never boasted about her power before. Like that makes any sense. It's not an exaggeration hint hint.

1. is that the official translation?

2. that statement would imply star level power, which at that point in time is clearly false. Toguro literally showed off his power to her by making a small crater in the ground. Implying they are actually star level would be insane. If you are implying it's just star level heat (which isn't actually what the statement says) even nukes get as hot as stars, so it doesn't mean that much.

@alextheboss:

Except there are calcs that say conflicting things...

Clearly, I am speaking about the calcs. Obviously, some calcs are straight-up outrageous, but the calcs I presented are far from it.

I'm going what's in front of me. Busting a hill or vaping a portion of it isn't above city level.

Oh, but it is, in fact you can't deny this unless you yourself calculate different results because the highest Meruem's feat was 800+ Megatons. That is vastly above City level.

There is no proof he vaporized anything in the manga. In the anime it does look like vaporization, but he didn't vaporize nearly that entire thing, actually only a fraction of the hill. The calcs you are using are trying to use the entire hill, which isn't even correct.

What? One of the calculations I literally posted provided evidence of how the manga portrays it as vaporization, it's NO different from the anime. This calculation here proves it being vaporization and no less. Furthermore, you are wrong again. The calcs I posted do not believe he busted the whole thing...they calculate the surface of said area vaporized and two taking an entirely different method by calculating the blast radius after Meruem fired at the said hill.

That re tiering thing you posted was done months ago and there are multiple comments in that thread calling out problems, so just because some guy calced it again, doesn't mean the site will accept that, not that VS battle wiki is usually right in the first place, as they usually highball things.

It's actually still being revised and never once were the revisions neglected or denied, what is happening is no one is bothering to update the profile, or said profile was remade. They have done this to countless series, it's nothing new. Vs battle, high-balling things is irrelevant when it's consistently calculated at 10 megatons or more. That's the premise of me providing more than one calc, unlike you basing your argument off of one calculation outshined by the new ones.

10 megatons is low on the city tier in VS battle wiki, and would still be nuke level. You seemed to be claiming it was above nuke level. Are you saying that isn't the case? I agree the rose is nuke level, so if you do to we are on agreement on that.

Yes, it's in the nuke level tier, I just said it was above the majority of nukes apart from the very known Tsar Bomb.

It's in the same spot, but it could be in replacement or just in front of it.

Given the blast still makes visible destruction that of a mountain supplements it having had destroyed some type of land area relative to that of the Mountains on the island because even a crater from that distance would still be very hard to make out.

Can I see this statement saying Yusuke's spirit gun at that point is stronger than any human weapon? If that's true it would make it above large nuke level, but even the biggest nuke is still city level. So it would make it at least large city to small mountain level, but we can't say much more than that.

This is the statement. Why would it make it Yusuke only small mountain level? The statement is vague, thus asserting it only caps at that level makes no sense. We know it's more potent than any nuke, thus we have a basis. How much powerful? Scaling off other feats in the series, i.e Genkai's power stating to have heat to that of a dwarf star.

1. is that the official translation?

Yes.

2. that statement would imply star level power, which at that point in time is clearly false. Toguro literally showed off his power to her by making a small crater in the ground. Implying they are actually star level would be insane. If you are implying it's just star level heat (which isn't actually what the statement says) even nukes get as hot as stars, so it doesn't mean that much.

Wrong for many reasons and why even if we did assume it'd mean that character had Star level power, Genkai was NEVER in shape to use said power at full capabilities if never having access to such power because she couldn't unlock it, in fact, Yusuke despite absorbing said power still could not access the full capabilities of his power, hence why Toguro wanted to show him how to harness that power and as you should know, Toguro fell victim to that power a power Yusuke still could not use at its full extent. So in no way is it an outlier or contradicts anything, consistent with the portrayal of what comes later: Sensui.That said, I will not argue this, to begin with, because it is related to heat as Yusuke literally says "It's as hot as the sun!" and his insides are nearly burning. He isn't taking an entire supernova in his body, just the core heat of the sun.

@pics:

Clearly, I am speaking about the calcs. Obviously, some calcs are straight-up outrageous, but the calcs I presented are far from it.

I'm not claiming the calcs you posted are outrageous, but they are still fan calcs and there can still be problems with them. Unless you present the reasons why I should take them seriously, or prove they are some sort of top tier physicist who really knows what they are talking about, they can only be taken with a grain of salt.

Oh, but it is, in fact you can't deny this unless you yourself calculate different results because the highest Meruem's feat was 800+ Megatons. That is vastly above City level.

Why would I have to provide a fan calc to disprove a fan calc that is making a bunch of assumptions?

What? One of the calculations I literally posted provided evidence of how the manga portrays it as vaporization, it's NO different from the anime. This calculation here proves it being vaporization and no less. Furthermore, you are wrong again. The calcs I posted do not believe he busted the whole thing...they calculate the surface of said area vaporized and two taking an entirely different method by calculating the blast radius after Meruem fired at the said hill.

His argument of vaporization is just wrong. Every time of rock/dirt explosion leaves behind dust clouds. He can't prove that's vaporization just because their his dust in the air. Even worse, the dust is actually blocking how much of the hill was even destroyed. We have no idea if it even blew through the whole thing, maybe only the front of it was blown off.

The damage from that attack was actually less than the Rose.

Given the blast still makes visible destruction that of a mountain supplements it having had destroyed some type of land area relative to that of the Mountains on the island because even a crater from that distance would still be very hard to make out.

Dust/smoke clouds are almost always larger than the actual destruction, so I wouldn't use that to prove it destroyed or could destroy a mountain. Large nuke mushroom clouds are usually larger than mountains, but that doesn't mean they could obliterate one. I'm not saying it can't be mountain level, just that it's safest to call it city level from what we've seen.

This is the statement. Why would it make it Yusuke only small mountain level? The statement is vague, thus asserting it only caps at that level makes no sense. We know it's more potent than any nuke, thus we have a basis. How much powerful? Scaling off other feats in the series, i.e Genkai's power stating to have heat to that of a dwarf star.

I'm not saying that makes it the cap, it's just the cap because he doesn't have feats above that level. And scaling off of other feats in the series wouldn't put it above mountain level. Every feat before that was significantly below mountain level. 60% Toguro showed off his power by destroying a building with multiple hits, and 80% showed off his power by making a small crater in the ground.

Also that link you gave isn't working.

Wrong for many reasons and why even if we did assume it'd mean that character had Star level power, Genkai was NEVER in shape to use said power at full capabilities if never having access to such power because she couldn't unlock it, in fact, Yusuke despite absorbing said power still could not access the full capabilities of his power, hence why Toguro wanted to show him how to harness that power and as you should know, Toguro fell victim to that power a power Yusuke still could not use at its full extent. So in no way is it an outlier or contradicts anything, consistent with the portrayal of what comes later: Sensui.That said, I will not argue this, to begin with, because it is related to heat as Yusuke literally says "It's as hot as the sun!" and his insides are nearly burning. He isn't taking an entire supernova in his body, just the core heat of the sun.

Even if we ignore it probably being a hyperbole, we don't know if they mean the heat of the surface of the sun, or the core. If you are arguing Yusuke can take multi thousand degree temperature, I would agree with that. Not that heat feats translate to busting or kinetic durability feats.

@alextheboss:

I'm not claiming the calcs you posted are outrageous, but they are still fan calcs and there can still be problems with them. Unless you present the reasons why I should take them seriously, or prove they are some sort of top tier physicist who really knows what they are talking about, they can only be taken with a grain of salt.

Why would there be problems with it? You're asking me to prove a negative. The burden of proof is on you. Sure, you can have skepticism of said calculations, but literally, every time you try, it always ends in a misunderstanding on your part. If you really doubt the calculations, I'd consider opening your mind to its validity because one of the people who calced Meruem's feat is an efficient physicist. That being ChaosTheory who made this calculation. If you have any doubt, this guy has been in the battle forums community for a while now and is mostly known as a decent and good calculation guy. So at this point, doubting them just because you don't think they're valid is not an argument. As I said, you're appealing to your opinion rather than arguments.

Why would I have to provide a fan calc to disprove a fan calc that is making a bunch of assumptions?

If you seriously can't grasp the calculation itself that you doubt, then calculate it yourself. Just because you think in your opinion they don't seem right doesn't make it wrong. Prove it yourself, because just implying "no" is not an argument. That said, assumptions that are far more valid and make sense than what you are arguing thus far, I think I'd clearly take the calculations side, Alex. Not much assumption is going on when it's backed by reason.

His argument of vaporization is just wrong. Every time of rock/dirt explosion leaves behind dust clouds. He can't prove that's vaporization just because their his dust in the air. Even worse, the dust is actually blocking how much of the hill was even destroyed. We have no idea if it even blew through the whole thing, maybe only the front of it was blown off.

No, it isn't. How can you tell me you even read the thread and say it's wrong? He literally tells you the entire DIFFERENCE between the sign of pulverization dust and vapor with an intense form of heat but also defines what a crater that consists of vapor would look like and what a crater that consists of pulverization would look like. That literally tells me you are not reading what's being said.

The damage from that attack was actually less than the Rose.

Sigh, I shouldn't have to tell you Nen is an act of a concentrated force, like ko which can be concentrated to a singular punch, could be more devastating than an attack that wipes out city blocks. Meruem Rage Blast having less AoE does not make it weaker than the Rose, especially when his Pre-Rose self literally has 50% of biomass left after being in the epicenter of the nuke. The Rage Blast works as a concentrated blast too, we see that it enters the hill, decreasing in size then expanding outward with a shockwave. The power behind the Rage Blast is arguably equal if not greater than the rose, as the calculations even back up.

Dust/smoke clouds are almost always larger than the actual destruction, so I wouldn't use that to prove it destroyed or could destroy a mountain. Large nuke mushroom clouds are usually larger than mountains, but that doesn't mean they could obliterate one. I'm not saying it can't be mountain level, just that it's safest to call it city level from what we've seen.

I'm not talking about the smoke though...and the smoke despite being very large is still not visibly appearing over the sign of destruction below it. Highlighted here:

Even if we ignore it probably being a hyperbole, we don't know if they mean the heat of the surface of the sun, or the core. If you are arguing Yusuke can take multi thousand degree temperature, I would agree with that. Not that heat feats translate to busting or kinetic durability feats.

Why would we assume it's not referring to the core? It's specifically referring to a Star itself with the same heat...acting similar thus said heat would possess a core as that's where the heat comes from, and Yusuke compares it to touching the sun, Clearly, it's not just referring to the surface when the spirit orb extended through his entire body, so he would be taking in all of its heat. It scaling as a durability feat is plausible as well yes, because such heat can in fact melt through buildings with ease reaching temperatures relative to that of a sun's solar flare.

@pics:

If you really doubt the calculations, I'd consider opening your mind to its validity because one of the people who calced Meruem's feat is an efficient physicist. That being ChaosTheory who made this calculation. If you have any doubt, this guy has been in the battle forums community for a while now and is mostly known as a decent and good calculation guy.

Oh man, ChaosTheory, Cableguy and endless mike are some of the best when it comes to calcs. I know ChaosTheory of course calcs based on "purely" what's evident with NO scaling whatsoever but his calcs are absolutely top notch and show necessary minimums (given again.. he adds 0 scaling to the calcs). He's someone I'd check the blogs of around 8+ years ago XD.

Why would we assume it's not referring to the core? It's specifically referring to a Star itself with the same heat...acting similar thus said heat would possess a core as that's where the heat comes from, and Yusuke compares it to touching the sun, Clearly, it's not just referring to the surface when the spirit orb extended through his entire body, so he would be taking in all of its heat. It scaling as a durability feat is plausible as well yes, because such heat can in fact melt through buildings with ease reaching temperatures relative to that of a sun's solar flare.

This honestly is all actually extremely easy to argue for in fact him having star level power given the scan. Obviously i'd disagree with it and the heat resistance side is all you can "realistically" appeal to with something like trying to compare to what Hiei's demon flames may have to be and such. I just don't see what constitutes it as "in fact" hyperbole if using the: "it's not ever contradicted therefore true" logic I see used for so many characters as is though.

@zaelleaz: Yeah, Chaostheory and Cable brings back memories. Two of the best calculation guys I've seen if I have to be honest.

As far the Spirit Orb, I mostly would use it to prove a characters power i.e: "YYH characters are Star level because of that" however that Spirit Orb is going to come in handy when it comes to Hiei...as Darkness of the Black Flame usually doesnt have a stated heat, we can certainly make assertion its greater in raw heat than the Spirit Orb given its portrayal and possibly more supporting evidence. That's what I hope to use it for anyways.

@pics:

Why would there be problems with it? You're asking me to prove a negative. The burden of proof is on you. Sure, you can have skepticism of said calculations, but literally, every time you try, it always ends in a misunderstanding on your part. If you really doubt the calculations, I'd consider opening your mind to its validity because one of the people who calced Meruem's feat is an efficient physicist. That being ChaosTheory who made this calculation. If you have any doubt, this guy has been in the battle forums community for a while now and is mostly known as a decent and good calculation guy. So at this point, doubting them just because you don't think they're valid is not an argument. As I said, you're appealing to your opinion rather than arguments.

I already gave my reasons. 1. we don't know how much mass was destroyed as we literally can't see and 2. that smoke doesn't mean vaporization. Even if it did, maybe only part of it was vaporized and the rest was melted or crumbled. Bringing up someone else's fan calc who used clear assumptions isn't proof of anything. You yourself need to show me how much mass was vaporized, and why I should believe that to be the case.

If you seriously can't grasp the calculation itself that you doubt, then calculate it yourself. Just because you think in your opinion they don't seem right doesn't make it wrong. Prove it yourself, because just implying "no" is not an argument. That said, assumptions that are far more valid and make sense than what you are arguing thus far, I think I'd clearly take the calculations side, Alex. Not much assumption is going on when it's backed by reason.

How can I calc the feat if we can't even tell how much mass was destroyed? Like I said, the smoke is covering most of it, and we would need to know if that smoke is dust or vaporization steam as well, and we have no way of telling that form the scan.

What we do know is he destroyed a hill, so it should be at least hill level. We can assume some things in a calc, but that doesn't make it accurate.

The only time fan calcs can be used as clear evidence is if we have FACTS. Like if we had a clear picture on just how much of the hill was vaporized, then I would be much more accepting, but as it stands we really can't see how much of it was.

No, it isn't. How can you tell me you even read the thread and say it's wrong? He literally tells you the entire DIFFERENCE between the sign of pulverization dust and vapor with an intense form of heat but also defines what a crater that consists of vapor would look like and what a crater that consists of pulverization would look like. That literally tells me you are not reading what's being said.

The argument is pretty sketchy since we are looking at a still frame of a manga, but lets say that was a clear sign of vaporization. We still don't know how much was vaporized. Maybe he only vaporized the face of the hill, and 99% of the hills mass wasn't actually vaporized.

Sigh, I shouldn't have to tell you Nen is an act of a concentrated force, like ko which can be concentrated to a singular punch, could be more devastating than an attack that wipes out city blocks. Meruem Rage Blast having less AoE does not make it weaker than the Rose, especially when his Pre-Rose self literally has 50% of biomass left after being in the epicenter of the nuke. The Rage Blast works as a concentrated blast too, we see that it enters the hill, decreasing in size then expanding outward with a shockwave. The power behind the Rage Blast is arguably equal if not greater than the rose, as the calculations even back up.

Sure, but you can't calculate concentrated nen, only visual destruction.

I'm not talking about the smoke though...and the smoke despite being very large is still not visibly appearing over the sign of destruction below it. Highlighted here:

I'm not sure what you are trying to show here. If you are trying to show how wide the burn spot on the ground is, destroying land area the width of a mountain is only city level, as I said. To be mountain level it would have to destroy the mountain, which we can't tell from that scene. Not to mention it's much less impressive in the manga.

City level seems the safest, with a possibility of mountain level.

Why would we assume it's not referring to the core? It's specifically referring to a Star itself with the same heat...acting similar thus said heat would possess a core as that's where the heat comes from, and Yusuke compares it to touching the sun,

Well you wouldn't "touch" the core of the sun, you would touch the surface.

Clearly, it's not just referring to the surface when the spirit orb extended through his entire body, so he would be taking in all of its heat. It scaling as a durability feat is plausible as well yes, because such heat can in fact melt through buildings with ease reaching temperatures relative to that of a sun's solar flare.

It's not that it wouldn't translate at all, but you can't really say "he is mountain level because he survived the heat of the sun".

@alextheboss:

Bruh, Alex. If you again, looked at the calculations more than once, you would find that they calculated the depth of said crater formed from the blast. If you want to really be that picky, you can clearly tell that more than 10 meters worth of depth was removed from the hill, as both the sides are shown to lack the connection of the hill's surface.

You don't need to know the mass to calculate the feat if we have a visible crater on panel. Stop reaching.

So his reasoning is sketchy despite the Rose Bomb being a bomb that has shown to visible vaporize ground and even stated to have melted what existed beneath it. So vaporization is not supportive? Hmmmm.

The visual destruction is being calculated, as the calculations show again.

As I pointed out Yusuke's Spirit Gun removes landmass in a trail to eventually making destruction comparable to that of what a Mountain can extend to, so the overall landmass wiped would still conservatively yield Small Mountain to Mountain level results.

Who's to say you wouldn't be touching the Sun in it's entirety? Yusuke is comparing it to heat that rivals the sun, which you don't refer to if you aren't speaking of the core. That said, its not really relevant as I made a better case and you strawmanned me to something I never said. You should be in reminisce of where I explicitly said that such heat would be able to "turn towns to ash" not vaporize Mountains, which in theory would be a plausible argument because a red dwarf star would emit heat comparable to that of a Solar Flare from our very sun. But I never used that as an argument because Yusuke survived the heat of a dwarf star, I completely argued it in being supportive of Mountain level scaling by a specific feat demonstrated by his Spirit Cuffed version.

That said, this will likely be my last response as I'd rather not bother get into a repetitive debate constantly, since I'm not urging to prove anything more than I already have unless it was done under other circumstances, but this being a random thread, I'd rather not bother too much. Agree to Disagree for the time being.

@pics:

You can partially see the sides of the hill so you can try and find a depth that way, but that's not what it looks like those calcs did.

Even if we assumed his calculation on volume is correct, one of the links YOU posted, the guy had two versions with a high and low ended volume, with a low middle and high end destruction for each depending on the type of explosion.

And as someone mentioned in the comment section on one of those threads, there is some rubble under the hill, which would also imply it wasn't pure vaporization.

@alextheboss: At this point, how can you fail and fail to prove nothing? The calculations didn't need to do the method I said, its literally IRRELEVANT when we have an on panel crater.

Bruh. Ive been established ChaosTheory using a low end and high end. This is what I mean by this being repetitive and you just end up proving nothing in the end.

"Debris"? You mean those tiny pieces of rock...that was blasted outward from the shockwave we see transverse on ground and to the left and right of the hill. Yeah, sorry to break it to you, but that proves nothing as I've again already established that the Rage Blast possesses an entire shockwave that consists of force, so of course chunks of rock would be blasted outward while the rest is entirely vaporized.

@pics:

At this point, how can you fail and fail to prove nothing? The calculations didn't need to do the method I said, its literally IRRELEVANT when we have an on panel crater.

I don't have to "prove" anything, all I have to do is bring reasonable doubt to the calc you are presenting, and the calc you are providing has the low ends in city level which I agree with.

Bruh. Ive been established ChaosTheory using a low end and high end. This is what I mean by this being repetitive and you just end up proving nothing in the end.

You realize if he puts a low end it means he thinks it's theoretically possible right? He wouldn't bother doing it if he thought it wasn't possible. And you know when debating you can't confidentially use high ends, only low ends right?

"Debris"? You mean those tiny pieces of rock...that was blasted outward from the shockwave we see transverse on ground and to the left and right of the hill. Yeah, sorry to break it to you, but that proves nothing as I've again already established that the Rage Blast possesses an entire shockwave that consists of force, so of course chunks of rock would be blasted outward while the rest is entirely vaporized.

See, the problem here is there is no proof the rest is entirely vaporized. You are just assuming it. Vaporization would can also come from heat, not just destructive force, so how do we know his attack doesn't just have incredibly high heat?

@alextheboss:

He has a low-end based off of two volumes that the Hill Meruem vaporized consists of. In providence of that, I supplied 2 more calcs that put the feat above 1 megaton. You are going no where but trying to now take the low-end yields (despite their being two) to assume 1 Megaton is possibly plausible for Meruem's feat despite again the calcs you can't debunk and continue to misunderstand proves otherwise. Not to mention, who the hell was arguing it being above City level? How of all this time do you agree its City level (despite implying Meruem capped at Small City level which I argued against) but now you agree to it being City level. You're literally contradicting yourself, I argued Meruem's Rage Blast being equal or stronger to the Rose Bomb, which you agreed was City level and then you agree that Meruem is City level yet disagreeing with it not being on par with the rose, like holy crap make up your mind. I am literally done speaking on this topic It's now that you put the several explanations I have given together.

What are you on about. Why would the visible crater not be vaporized when it's there? What the hell is there to assume when it's right. there. Stop reaching, the amount of misunderstanding in this thread is something I have never came across. Meruem's Rage Blast has vapor, which is the same as Youpi's Rage Blast which also has vapor. Pulverization does not remove such mass nigh instantly, with there being blackness within the crater itself, and "incredible heat" is literal vaporization, the sun surface has incredible heat and that would vaporize our planet's surface if too close. Literally Incredible heat is not even a defined term, because if so that's vaporization when there's intense heat there's vapor...that lasts for a long time unlike pulverization which is visually different but nowhere near like vaporization.

@pics:

He has a low-end based off of two volumes that the Hill Meruem vaporized consists of. In providence of that, I supplied 2 more calcs that put the feat above 1 megaton.

When did I ever say it was only 1 megaton?

You are going no where but trying to now take the low-end yields (despite their being two) to assume 1 Megaton is possibly plausible for Meruem's feat despite again the calcs you can't debunk and continue to misunderstand proves otherwise.

Again, where is this 1 megaton stuff coming from? I never said I thought it was that level.

Not to mention, who the hell was arguing it being above City level? How of all this time do you agree its City level (despite implying Meruem capped at Small City level which I argued against) but now you agree to it being City level.

This whole time I was trying to dispute it definitely being mountain level, not it being city level...

I'm pretty sure I was saying pre rose was town to small city level, and that post rose was small city level or higher.

To me it seemed you were trying to claim the 500 megaton thing was pretty much what we should go with. If you agree that city level is also ok, and mountain is just the high end, I would be ok with that, but to me that's not what it seemed like you were trying to push.

You're literally contradicting yourself, I argued Meruem's Rage Blast being equal or stronger to the Rose Bomb, which you agreed was City level and then you agree that Meruem is City level yet disagreeing with it not being on par with the rose, like holy crap make up your mind. I am literally done speaking on this topic It's now that you put the several explanations I have given together.

See, that's ok, I think his blast being equal to or a bit stronger than the rose makes sense, but that's not what your argument seemed to be conveying.

Actually I just went back and checked, this is what we said

Me: I'm going what's in front of me. Busting a hill or vaping a portion of it isn't above city level.

You: Oh, but it is, in fact you can't deny this unless you yourself calculate different results because the highest Meruem's feat was 800+ Megatons. That is vastly above City level.

See, all I originally said was it isn't above city level, not that it wasn't as strong or stronger than the rose. I think that's fine.

So you say I'm the one contradicting myself, but I just proved you straight up lied, or your mind is altering past events in your memory so you remember things in a way that suites your narrative.

I guess there is no point in responding to the rest if you'll literally lie and make up my own arguments for me and then say I'm contradicting myself.

@alextheboss: How is me saying the highest Meruem's feat was calculated at 800+ megatons in relation to what I said later on of it being City level or greater? I never went with the argument it was 800 megatons or more, none of the calculations I even provided reached that high, so how the hell can I have been lying?

It seems that you're twisting my words and making them out to be of something I never was arguing, just as you're doing now. Tell me where I exactly ever argue Meruem's Rage Blast is that high, because this entire time I was in disagreement with you blatantly implying Meruem's Rage Blast had been calculated at Small City level (1 Megaton) and you taking that as a fact. I'd consider re-reading what you said because you CLEARLY don't remember how this escalated towards the point we are at now.

Toguro wins. he has meruem outclassed comfortably in all stats but intel and speed with intel being a loss and speed being close

@pics:

Tell me where I exactly ever argue Meruem's Rage Blast is that high,

You didn't directly say it, but you implied it, probably by accident due to misunderstanding my argument. I was never saying the highballs couldn't be possible, I was saying there wasn't enough information to confirm them as being true, and then you seemingly disagreed with that, so I thought that meant you thought the calcs proved it to be mountain level.

I think there was confusion on both of our parts there.

because this entire time I was in disagreement with you blatantly implying Meruem's Rage Blast had been calculated at Small City level (1 Megaton) and you taking that as a fact. I'd consider re-reading what you said because you CLEARLY don't remember how this escalated towards the point we are at now.

Can you please post where I said it was a fact it was small city level and couldn't be higher? If I actually said that, I take that back, but I don't remember saying that.

@alextheboss: No, I actually didn't. What I had actually implied was you implying Meruem's feat is Small City to City level, you even beginning to use Vs Battle to prove that Meruem is Small City, to "maybe" City level, and yes you implied that he was City level, with skepticism unlike the previous tier you considered him, which was Small City.

I argued that is false and Meruem would consistently be anywhere to City level to Mountain level, never even bringing up a calculation or mentioning Meruem being Mountain level (though high-balled) again. This is where you took things out of context and constantly straw-manned me throughout the debate. I never once took the high-balled route and said Meruem was definitively Mountain level, like anyone reading my comments cannot be that misinformed, especially something I mentioned one time, in comparison to me constantly saying Meruem is City level or greater (I hope you know City level has its tiers, just like there's Country level, there's Large Country level.) did not mean I was asserting he was Mountain level, and if I was even arguing him at that level, refuting my arguments would have not been hard or confusing at all because you should know what tons of TNT Mountain level yields, because the calculations I provided literally didn't support anything I said for Meruem being Mountain level, if I was ever arguing him at that tier in the first place. It's common sense, really.

So to wrap things up: You stated that Small City level was a tier Meruem sits at, with maybe City level being an exception, in comparison to what you agreed of his power level now. Which is City level? I hope this clears things because I was genuinely confused what you were getting befuddled by.

@pics:

No, I actually didn't. What I had actually implied was you implying Meruem's feat is Small City to City level, you even beginning to use Vs Battle to prove that Meruem is Small City, to "maybe" City level, and yes you implied that he was City level, with skepticism unlike the previous tier you considered him, which was Small City.

Yes, I was arguing I personally think he can't be reliably argued above City level. I wasn't saying he couldn't be higher than that, but that arguing above it was dubious. Considering him small city level is still a fine opinion imo, but I never claimed it as a fact. I would never claim VS battles as a fact either, I was just showing you what a sight that consistently high balls characters had him at.

And I didn't mean you purposefully implied it, I meant you accidentally implied it by going against my argument which you misunderstood. You can't just keep denying what my argument was, I asked for you to quote me proving it, and if you can't do that you are just talking.

I argued that is false and Meruem would consistently be anywhere to City level to Mountain level, never even bringing up a calculation or mentioning Meruem being Mountain level (though high-balled) again. This is where you took things out of context and constantly straw-manned me throughout the debate. I never once took the high-balled route and said Meruem was definitively Mountain level, like anyone reading my comments cannot be that misinformed, especially something I mentioned one time, in comparison to me constantly saying Meruem is City level or greater (I hope you know City level has its tiers, just like there's Country level, there's Large Country level.) did not mean I was asserting he was Mountain level, and if I was even arguing him at that level, refuting my arguments would have not been hard or confusing at all because you should know what tons of TNT Mountain level yields, because the calculations I provided literally didn't support anything I said for Meruem being Mountain level, if I was ever arguing him at that tier in the first place. It's common sense, really.

Watch me simply prove you are a liar right now with actually posting facts from our debate and not just rambling like you.

ME: Busting a hill or vaping a portion of it isn't above city level.

You: Oh, but it is

As we know, above city level is mountain level. You said IT IS, not that it could be. That is you saying it is mountain level.

This may have just been you accidentally implying it by a misstep in your language, but like I said, you did do it.

I literally admitted we both made mistakes, yet you are doubling down saying you might not have even accidentally implied it, yet I just proved it. You are just making yourself look worse and worse.

And here is another example of a lie

You: Out of all the calcs, I don't know how you only found small city level results, when there are constant revisions that make the feat way above that, like here, or here that uses a low-end and high-end, and Vs Battle themselves making changes in the calculation that got small city level shown in HxH's re-tiering.

You sate I could only find small city level results (which is something I never stated, I just said I found one that put it at small city level).

You then proceed to show a calc that had a low end of 1 megaton, which would be small city level.

You realize that when you have a high and low end, you can only use the low end in a debate confidently right?

If you are taking assumptions, and the low ends can get it that low, that means theoretically it CAN be that low, and that arguing it higher is an ASSUMPTION. Assumptions in debates are never strong arguments. All I have ever been trying to do here is show you that you were using assumptions and trying to present them as facts that can be used in debates, which they aren't.

Also you realize just because you trust those people's calculations doesn't mean I have to? If you want to be convincing with a calc, bring your own reasonings and calculations to the table. They are not pillars of authority that have to be debunked, they are a fans personal interpretation and estimation and as you can see in the comments people disagree with them all of the time, and they are constantly changing them to your own admission. There are different levels of evidence, and bringing up a fan calc you think is good is ok, but it will never be a strong point of evidence unless it's a calculation using facts, like if a confirmed distance, speed, or mass is given.

So to wrap things up: You stated that Small City level was a tier Meruem sits at, with maybe City level being an exception, in comparison to what you agreed of his power level now. Which is City level? I hope this clears things because I was genuinely confused what you were getting befuddled by.

My argument has always been that city level can be confidentially argued, and that city level is also a good possibility. My disagreement was acting like high ends of calcs should be the facts we should go with.

So what I'm basically saying is

Meruem is at least small city level

could easily be city level

could be mountain level, but it's a stretch

@alextheboss:

I meant you accidentally implied it by going against my argument which you misunderstood. You can't just keep denying what my argument was, I asked for you to quote me proving it, and if you can't do that you are just talking.

Lmao, my misunderstanding? Alex, you're the one who straw-manned me this ENTIRE time, asserting something I never argued, while you are now back-peddling because I called you out on your lack of reading.

Watch me simply prove you are a liar right now with actually posting facts from our debate and not just rambling like you.

And watch me educate you on the ability to read as I disprove of again your misunderstandings.

As we know, above city level is mountain level. You said IT IS, not that it could be. That is you saying it is mountain level.

Alex, that is me saying Meruem's feat is above your standard yield of City level which is defined as 6 Megatons If I was ever arguing Meruem was Mountain level as a fact, I would have NEVER implied it being City-level or more on multiple occasions, which again, me saying moredoes not mean it has to be Mountain level when I literally explained to you that I mentioned it once and never again. What's even worse is that you're literally leaving out context, that very response you quoted was in relation to this:

I'm going what's in front of me. Busting a hill or vaping a portion of it isn't above city level

What you said that it isn't above City-level with me replying with a calculation that has yielded 800 Megatons or more, which as you should literally have knowledge of, that's not freaking Mountain level. How you're twisting my words is hideous and absolutely disgusting like, the hell is with you and your straw-man. 1 Teraton is Small Country, would you still call a feat Small Country if it yields 10 Teratons? No, just as you wouldn't call 800 megatons still CIty level, that would be in the realm of Large City tier, or Multi-City level or most notably used by Vs Battle Small Mountain Tier. There is absolutely nothing wrong with me saying it's above City level if anything above 6 megatons is literally above City level. Like hello, common sense, do you not have it?

I literally admitted we both made mistakes, yet you are doubling down saying you might not have even accidentally implied it, yet I just proved it. You are just making yourself look worse and worse.

No Alex, it's you making a fool of yourself. I did not accidentally imply SHIT because I know what I meant, you are just not able to read is all. Don't bring me down because you misunderstood common sense bruh,

common sense.

You sate I could only find small city level results (which is something I never stated, I just said I found one that put it at small city level).

And if you did find more than Small City level results, Meruem being City level wouldn't have been a "maybe" in your own words by using Vs Battle as some type of source because they maybe have Meruem at City level:

Their current placement for Meruem is small city to maybe city.

Which the statement you quoted was literally your pathetic response to what I gave of other calculations yielding much more accurate results. Now, Alex, you should again have the ability to read because I explained why pulverization is not the ideal destructive force of Meruem's blast hint where the Small City level results come from. If a character vaporizes a Mountain, but somehow someway a calculations guy decides to use fragmentation as a low-end, would you take that low-end over the attack that visually vaporized something rather than fragment? No, that'd be straight-up retarded. So there is a specific reason why I am not taking into account the Small City level calculation because it used the wrong method of destruction.

Also you realize just because you trust those people's calculations doesn't mean I have to? If you want to be convincing with a calc, bring your own reasonings and calculations to the table. They are not pillars of authority that have to be debunked, they are a fans personal interpretation and estimation and as you can see in the comments people disagree with them all of the time, and they are constantly changing them to your own admission. There are different levels of evidence, and bringing up a fan calc you think is good is ok, but it will never be a strong point of evidence unless it's a calculation using facts, like if a confirmed distance, speed, or mass is given.

And you know what happened when you tried to go against these calculations? You got your shit debunked and never bought them up again. Who cares if you don't like them, it is the burden of proof you disprove of them which you failed to do. Me saying "no" is not an argument and I did in fact prove why these calculations were right in their estimates, do not act like I straight-up didn't address the arguments of you saying the surface of the hill was small, or you can't calculate the feat because we don't know how much was destroyed. Like the majority of your points were literally dismantled and you never bought them up again. At this point, taking this debate in a positive manner made me lack any will to do so when you are spreading these garbage lies and straw-man non-stop.

My argument has always been that city level can be confidentially argued, and that city level is also a good possibility. My disagreement was acting like high ends of calcs should be the facts we should go with.

Good thing that the low-end has been disproven of the wrong hints the fact Meruem's feat at a low-end with the right method of destruction would in fact be City level, not only that, but I used consistency to prove that the low-ends yield City level results, not Small City level.

@pics:

Alex, that is me saying Meruem's feat is above your standard yield of City level which is defined as 6 Megatons If I was ever arguing Meruem was Mountain level as a fact, I would have NEVER implied it being City-level or more on multiple occasions, which again, me saying moredoes not mean it has to be Mountain level when I literally explained to you that I mentioned it once and never again. What's even worse is that you're literally leaving out context, that very response you quoted was in relation to this:

I was talking about city level as an entire tier, not 6 megatons, which I never heard of being called standard city level before. So again, that was just you assuming what I meant by above city level incorrectly.

What you said that it isn't above City-level with me replying with a calculation that has yielded 800 Megatons or more, which as you should literally have knowledge of, that's not freaking Mountain level

It is on vs battle wiki...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with me saying it's above City level if anything above 6 megatons is literally above City level. Like hello, common sense, do you not have it?

I never said you saying it above 6 megatons is wrong, or if that's what YOU consider city level. The problem is you were responding to MY definition of city level, not YOURS, so you can't apply YOURS to it, understand? Or is that too complicated for you?

No Alex, it's you making a fool of yourself. I did not accidentally imply SHIT because I know what I meant, you are just not able to read is all. Don't bring me down because you misunderstood common sense bruh,

common sense.

How ironic. You just admitted above by above city level you meant above 6 megatons, which you never clarified earlier and was not what I meant by above city level, so you just flat out admitted your argument implied something which I was not considering. Again, this was both of our faults for not clarifying what we meant by "city level", but the fact you keep acting like I'm the only one who didn't clarify and am the only one making a mistake is really making you look like the fool not me. You really need to take your rose tinted glasses off and check yourself, your arrogance is getting the better of you.

And if you did find more than Small City level results, Meruem being City level wouldn't have been a "maybe" in your own words by using Vs Battle as some type of source because they maybe have Meruem at City level:

What you are saying here isn't making sense. I don't consider VS battle a wiki an authority on anything and I think they are wrong a lot. VS battle wiki and fan calcs aren't sources you should use in a debate. Use official sources, and then your own reasonings. You are hiding behind other people's calcs and asking me to read through them and debunk them when I'm not compelled to do so.

Which the statement you quoted was literally your pathetic response to what I gave of other calculations yielding much more accurate results.

Can you prove to me they are more accurate? Being newer doesn't make them more accurate.

Now, Alex, you should again have the ability to read because I explained why pulverization is not the ideal destructive force of Meruem's blast hint where the Small City level results come from. If a character vaporizes a Mountain, but somehow someway a calculations guy decides to use fragmentation as a low-end, would you take that low-end over the attack that visually vaporized something rather than fragment? No, that'd be straight-up retarded. So there is a specific reason why I am not taking into account the Small City level calculation because it used the wrong method of destruction.

I have a bigger problem with the mass of the hill they are using rather than the vaporization. For one thing they try to scale the blast compared to that little nen bot thing, but when next to Meruem it looks incredibly smaller. Then there is no real way to calc the depth of the crater on the hill.

And you know what happened when you tried to go against these calculations? You got your shit debunked and never bought them up again. Who cares if you don't like them, it is the burden of proof you disprove of them which you failed to do. Me saying "no" is not an argument and I did in fact prove why these calculations were right in their estimates, do not act like I straight-up didn't address the arguments of you saying the surface of the hill was small, or you can't calculate the feat because we don't know how much was destroyed. Like the majority of your points were literally dismantled and you never bought them up again. At this point, taking this debate in a positive manner made me lack any will to do so when you are spreading these garbage lies and straw-man non-stop.

Lol, you don't debunk my feats, you just tell me too look at the calc again. Show me where there is solid proof how much mass was destroyed, because I didn't see it in those thread you linked.

@alextheboss:

I never said you saying it above 6 megatons is wrong, or if that's what YOU consider city level. The problem is you were responding to MY definition of city level, not YOURS, so you can't apply YOURS to it, understand? Or is that too complicated for you?

Responding to yours? Alex, I made it clear from the damn near the start of our debate that you claiming it's "City level" is vague, this was my exact quote when you called the Rose Bomb City-level.

Sure, this is vague though. That doesn't assert the nuke to being 6 megatons or any lower when calcs put it at 20 Megatons or more, which is far above your average City busting nuke.

I've been established how I was going about these high-yield megaton yields, the fact you think I did not clarify is literally false, this misunderstanding is just a common foible on your part for skipping over arguments I bought to your attention. Don't slander me with your own faulty habits of misreading text or not proofreading or having common sense. You should have known I addressed how you kept calling things "City level" and hence why I said the Rage Blast is above City level.

How ironic. You just admitted above by above city level you meant above 6 megatons, which you never clarified earlier

Wrong.

Again, this was both of our faults for not clarifying what we meant by "city level"

Sigh, let me explain why the hell you never once implied this thought because what you previously called me was a liar, Alex, a liar for saying something that should not need any clarification especially when I addressed it before as shown in this response. I have been addressed on what you thought was City level, why would I clarify something again that you should have read, which I thought you did because that the mindset I was following going further into this debate. It's not my fault at all, and I admit when I'm in the wrong, but you literally are changing this shit up by calling me a liar now butting me in with your own misunderstanding, as I have in fact spoke on what I meant of "being above City-level"

What you are saying here isn't making sense. I don't consider VS battle a wiki an authority on anything and I think they are wrong a lot. VS battle wiki and fan calcs aren't sources you should use in a debate. Use official sources, and then your own reasonings. You are hiding behind other people's calcs and asking me to read through them and debunk them when I'm not compelled to do so.

Wow, me hiding behind a calculation because they make a good point of how strong the feat is thus I will be in support of it because it's backed up...hiding behind a calculation, wow. Do better Alex, I'm done acting like you are not insane because you are again slandering me. I did use my own reasoning, reasoning which you tried to say the calculation was false because they use methods you fail to grasp. Now when it came to that vaporization argument? Why would I even begin to make a case to such if it was already addressed in the thread, I do not need to defend the calculations methods if the said person already defended their methods. Me hiding behind the calculations is straight-up lies as I literally made you shut up about things you were trying to poke at the calculations, with my own resource.And even if I was hiding behind a calculation, it's better than saying "no you're wrong because my opinion says otherwise" but that literally changed when I in fact convinced you that the Rose Bomb and Rage Blast was higher than you expected. If you can't argue against the calculations, why are you arguing it's false? Alex, it wouldn't have gone this far if you had simply said I don't like the use of calculations, but no you made a fool of yourself trying to debunk them. I would have gone a different route if that was the case.

Can you prove to me they are more accurate? Being newer doesn't make them more accurate.

Yo what? I literally did that back when you tried addressing the issues with the calculation, now we're going back in circles and making the debate repetitive again, I'm not going to repeat myself.

I have a bigger problem with the mass of the hill they are using rather than the vaporization. For one thing they try to scale the blast compared to that little nen bot thing, but when next to Meruem it looks incredibly smaller. Then there is no real way to calc the depth of the crater on the hill.

I have no idea which calculation you are talking about, but scaling the blast next to APR is literally what you do, and what do you mean it looks "smaller"? APR was a speck in comparison to the blast. There is a way to calculate the depth of the crater....very easily, but literally, you don't need to calculate the depth at all to gain results, hello we've been established this. Here you go again, bringing up irrelevancy to something that's not needed.

Lol, you don't debunk my feats, you just tell me too look at the calc again. Show me where there is solid proof how much mass was destroyed, because I didn't see it in those thread you linked.

LMAO. Uh-huh, like as if I didn't have to break it down for you. Keep reaching.

@pics:

Responding to yours? Alex, I made it clear from the damn near the start of our debate that you claiming it's "City level" is vague, this was my exact quote when you called the Rose Bomb City-level.

Yes, city level is vague, but you never defined it, not in the statement you just reposted either.

I've been established how I was going about these high-yield megaton yields, the fact you think I did not clarify is literally false, this misunderstanding is just a common foible on your part for skipping over arguments I bought to your attention. Don't slander me with your own faulty habits of misreading text or not proofreading or having common sense. You should have known I addressed how you kept calling things "City level" and hence why I said the Rage Blast is above City level.

Again, you never clarified. Lets look at your statement.

Sure, this is vague though. That doesn't assert the nuke to being 6 megatons or any lower when calcs put it at 20 Megatons or more, which is far above your average City busting nuke.

All you said that doesn't assert the nuke being 6 megatons, and it could be 20 megatons or more. That would still be within city level by vs battle wikis tier chart, and still does not define what were talking about when you said city level. I never heard of 6 megatons being the standard city level before, and you did not state that here, so to me it looked like you were just saying it could be 20 megatons, not 6, not that it had anything to do with being above standard city level. The problem is you assumed I knew something you did, but I didn't, so I could not make that connection.

Wrong.

Correct. Your above statement you re posted did not clarify 6 megatons meant standard city level.

Sigh, let me explain why the hell you never once implied this thought because what you previously called me was a liar, Alex, a liar for saying something that should not need any clarification especially when I addressed it before as shown in this response.

The problem is you didn't clarify, you thought you clarified. Also you don't get to decide what needs to be clarified.

I have been addressed on what you thought was City level, why would I clarify something again that you should have read, which I thought you did because that the mindset I was following going further into this debate. It's not my fault at all, and I admit when I'm in the wrong, but you literally are changing this shit up by calling me a liar now butting me in with your own misunderstanding, as I have in fact spoke on what I meant of "being above City-level"

Again, claiming you think the rose is above 6 megatons isn't a clarification of the definition of city level.

Wow, me hiding behind a calculation because they make a good point of how strong the feat is thus I will be in support of it because it's backed up...hiding behind a calculation, wow. Do better Alex, I'm done acting like you are not insane because you are again slandering me. I did use my own reasoning, reasoning which you tried to say the calculation was false because they use methods you fail to grasp. Now when it came to that vaporization argument? Why would I even begin to make a case to such if it was already addressed in the thread, I do not need to defend the calculations methods if the said person already defended their methods. Me hiding behind the calculations is straight-up lies

I don't believe I said the calcs were "false", I said they made assumptions which made them not factual. Not being a fact, and being false are two ENTIRELY different things, but maybe you did not know that.

And you are hiding behind the calc, because when I looked at it and brought my grievances behind certain aspects, all you said was the calc explains that and to check again, shifting the burden from yourself to the calc.

as I literally made you shut up about things you were trying to poke at the calculations,

LMAO, me not responding to something was just me not wanting to deal with all the crap you were posting. You never made me shut up about anything. Also we were just going in a circular argument. I wasn't going to keep repeating the same argument I already debunked over and over again because you disagreed with it.

And even if I was hiding behind a calculation, it's better than saying "no you're wrong because my opinion says otherwise" but that literally changed when I in fact convinced you that the Rose Bomb and Rage Blast was higher than you expected.

First off, that calc is also an opinion. If it was my opinion vs an official statement or something that would be different, but it's my opinion vs another fan's opinion on how he did his calculation. And I'm not saying he did everything wrong, I just think he took some liberties which make it questionable to use it as a FACT. At best I would say it could be used to get a rough ball park on where the feat could be.

If you can't argue against the calculations, why are you arguing it's false?

Again, never said it was false. Stop strawmanning.

Yo what? I literally did that back when you tried addressing the issues with the calculation, now we're going back in circles and making the debate repetitive again, I'm not going to repeat myself.

You said it being vaporization makes it more accurate, and all the calc said was because the smoke went up...

Look at these pics from dynamite explosions (not vaporization) where the smoke went up.

Here is a video showing many examples.

Trying to say it was a complete vaporization feat due to the direction of the dust and smoke is an extremely questionable argument, so I was asking you for real PROOF it was DEFINITELY vaporization.

I have no idea which calculation you are talking about, but scaling the blast next to APR is literally what you do, and what do you mean it looks "smaller"? APR was a speck in comparison to the blast. There is a way to calculate the depth of the crater....very easily, but literally, you don't need to calculate the depth at all to gain results, hello we've been established this. Here you go again, bringing up irrelevancy to something that's not needed.

That calc is assuming the depth of the crater is the same as the width, which is an EXTREMELY big assumption.

Most craters have a far more shallow depth than width, even for nukes.

He also found the top diameter by measuring the smoke width at the top, but the smoke width could have been wider than the actual crater width. In fact, the way it was drawn it looks like it probably was.

LMAO. Uh-huh, like as if I didn't have to break it down for you. Keep reaching.

See, this is what I meant by you hiding behind the calc. You just keep saying you don't need to break it down for me, yet I'm going out of my way to break down to you why they didn't actually find the depth, and they just assumed it, but you had to do nothing but say I'm wrong and look again. If anything this just shows you don't understand what the calc did yourself or why it could be wrong. You not understanding it and being able to argue back against what I'm bringing up is what I call, "hiding behind a calc".

Toguro, way more stronger and faster than Meruem since he kept up with Yusuke.

All you said that doesn't assert the nuke being 6 megatons, and it could be 20 megatons or more. That would still be within city level by vs battle wikis tier chart, and still does not define what were talking about when you said city level. I never heard of 6 megatons being the standard city level before, and you did not state that here, so to me it looked like you were just saying it could be 20 megatons, not 6, not that it had anything to do with being above standard city level. The problem is you assumed I knew something you did, but I didn't, so I could not make that connection.

You're leaving out context Alex, my statement said that's above your average City Busting. Keyword: City-busting. I blatantly implied what I meant by saying 6 megatons or more is above City-Busting. Did I not? My issue here is how you claimed I LIED Alex, now brushing it off as "We're both in fault" when I literally made the claim 6 megatons or more is above City-busting. Again, if you read my comments, you would have not been confused at all about what I was implying because I said this from the get-go, I never was talking your definition of City-level, I was following my own as I been said.

The problem is you didn't clarify, you thought you clarified. Also you don't get to decide what needs to be clarified.

"Thought I clarified" Good fucking lord. This guy. Or maybe I did clarify and you just ended up missing where I assert the tier I was saying Meruem scaled in...

I don't believe I said the calcs were "false", I said they made assumptions which made them not factual. Not being a fact, and being false are two ENTIRELY different things, but maybe you did not know that.

And you are hiding behind the calc, because when I looked at it and brought my grievances behind certain aspects, all you said was the calc explains that and to check again, shifting the burden from yourself to the calc.

If they were not factual, that means they were falsely calculated thus making the resulting yields false by default which you argued. That's no different than what I said.

No Alex, I never hid behind the calculation, because what you were saying was you literally making shit up that the calculation never assumed, "thE cAlcUlaTioNs asSumed mErueM vapOriZed tHe hILl enTiReLy" which is something I told you to check again because that was literally false. Why would I go any other way about addressing that when you claiming things the calculation never assumed and you are acting as if I didn't even explain to you what you were misunderstanding because It wasn't "You're wrong, go look at the calculation again" but keep reaching.

LMAO, me not responding to something was just me not wanting to deal with all the crap you were posting. You never made me shut up about anything. Also we were just going in a circular argument. I wasn't going to keep repeating the same argument I already debunked over and over again because you disagreed with it.

LMAO, Alex I straight up made you changed your entire opinion of the Rose Nukes power, something which you can't even refute, next was you implying Genkai Spirit Orb yielding a star's worth of energy as an outlier, debunking your garbage arguments again, and then so came the Spirit Gun may not or may have destroyed a Mountain, but I made a rebuttal to even if it didn't, it still destroyed landmass relative to the Mountains, so how the hell are you going to act like you are all high and mighty when you conceded on more than one arguments, after debunking your trash your responses were relative to "Ok, but still that-" you tried making arguments around it. Anyways, I don't want to sound like a cocky ass hole, but talking bullshit out of your mouth is something I won't let slide, I'd advise you to bring up those supposed arguments you "didn't bother debunking" because oh boy, I'd love to tear them apart again.

First off, that calc is also an opinion. If it was my opinion vs an official statement or something that would be different, but it's my opinion vs another fan's opinion on how he did his calculation. And I'm not saying he did everything wrong, I just think he took some liberties which make it questionable to use it as a FACT. At best I would say it could be used to get a rough ball park on where the feat could be.

This I find in agreement of, however as I said before, you did not refute the calculations which is why merely saying no is not an argument. By all means, disagree but if you try and present this mindset in a debate, do not appeal to your opinion, that's the equivalent of me ignoring your arguments because I don't think this certain character is as weak as you claim, just as I'd try and use evidence and reason to prove my point, you do the same. Not saying you didn't before, but lots of it was a misunderstanding, but at least we're going somewhere.

You said it being vaporization makes it more accurate, and all the calc said was because the smoke went up...

Look at these pics from dynamite explosions (not vaporization) where the smoke went up.

You also misread the calculations points, again. The calculation doesn't assert vapor merely just going upward, they mention it extending and constantly spreading upwards.The video or the images you linked show none of that. What your images show is the very start of the explosions detonation rather than what the smoke does after, which is something similar to this or this. Furthermore, seems you missed the part where he says that the effects of said smoke/vapor would spread out more slowly and settle which compared to the vapor from vaporization will not:

pulverization will spread much more slowly (diff sfx as well) and eventually settle after the kinetic event due to the particulates being much heavier/dense solid matter

So the comparison isn't valid at all.

That calc is assuming the depth of the crater is the same as the width, which is an EXTREMELY big assumption.

Most craters have a far more shallow depth than width, even for nukes.

He also found the top diameter by measuring the smoke width at the top, but the smoke width could have been wider than the actual crater width. In fact, the way it was drawn it looks like it probably was.

It's not doing that at all? Where do you see him highlight the depth of the crater at all? What he does is use the diameter of the crater and the height of the crater as supplementary values, then gains the total volume destroyed off of that, if anything the diameter is simply not being used making the calculation low-balled for that exact reason, but it's simply not relevant.

Huh? How would it be wider, if the crater itself visually shows measuring exactly up to the top diameters gained by the pixel-scaling? The vapor forming off the hill is the total area wiped from the Rage Blast itself. In that same scan, the crater even shows extending higher than the Plateau itself, with both sides being left similar to what the scan shows of the intense vapor coming off. It all lines up pretty well.

See, this is what I meant by you hiding behind the calc. You just keep saying you don't need to break it down for me, yet I'm going out of my way to break down to you why they didn't actually find the depth, and they just assumed it, but you had to do nothing but say I'm wrong and look again. If anything this just shows you don't understand what the calc did yourself or why it could be wrong. You not understanding it and being able to argue back against what I'm bringing up is what I call, "hiding behind a calc".

What? Bro, my brain hurts already having to properly process what you're mindset is right now because I never said I don't need to break down anything, I used "as if" meaning that in past-tense, I've done so when you questioned the calculations. This is what I mean by me saying you are not reading...

(Forgot to tag @alextheboss)