(MCU) Iron Fist vs. Black Widow

Black Widow is trying to get some coffee when she sees Danny interrogating a person by shoving him against a brick wall, Like how Luke witnessed in Defenders. However this time it's by day. She immediately turns to the alley to confront and possibly stop the situation. However Danny isn't in the right mood nor mind to deal with Widow. The man who was getting tortured by Danny runs past Widow saying, "Thank you.. HE's crazy!" Danny then turns to Widow saying, "Really... Now you better have some answers on you...." Widow feels threatened and gets ready to fight.

• No prep
• No knowledge
• Just H2H combat
• Morals on for both, but willing to cause serious injury
• Danny can only use the Iron Fist once

Who wins?

Also the location is obviously an alley in New York.

Should be iron fist but he sucks dong in his tv show

Danny is above Nat's pay grade. Stronger, hits harder, far more and faster. He stomps.

Could go either way but I think Nat secures the bag here.

Danny in a one sided fight.

Apparently she and Hawkeye are above the Netflix fighters

@ganon15: Where have you been? Nat is better than super soldiers now.

Mixed opinions? Awesome! Can’t really decide myself.

Danny. But widow will give him some trouble

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/mcu-iron-fist-vs-black-widow-1876000/

Been done

@rogueshadow@jashro44@jedixman

@hecomesatnight

Widow would probably win, the damage from Danny's Iron Fist would be devastating but in the end she would be able to take it after all the feats she's accomplished in the avengers movies. After that one punch, it would be over for Danny as Widow has proven to be able to take far more skilled or stronger characters and turning them against themselves. It would be the equivalent if Daredevil had been willing to go in for the kill against Danny in Defenders.

Danny stomps

Danny with a degree of trouble

She would win with gear though

Danny.

Even with danny being inexperienced in this show. He is still far beyond her in skill he will take it in a close fight

Black Widow should out skill/stat Danny for the most part. She faster, is physically stronger (excluding a charged Chi Fist) and has hanged with tougher opposition.

Danny can potentially win with a clean Chi Fist, but him tagging Natasha is a hard sell

@namesclassified: Danny one-shots Hand fodder who are enhanced to an extent, he also dodges bullets from point blank range, although Widow has better feats in the tie-in comics Danny is still more skilled and is decently fast, he also (without chi) has comparable striking strength, he can stagger Murakami, someone who survives from falling 1,000 feat and gets stabbed in the chest, Murakami can also take punches from Luke Cage and Jessica Jones. Although Widow is strong she hasn’t injured someone who can survive falling from 1,000 feat or take multiple hits from Jess and Luke.

@avengergamer676: Both Danny and Natasha are presented as CQC masters, so without features being cited, I don't see what makes Danny the more skilled practitioner. Is it the choreography?

As for strength feats, Natasha's numerous features against the muliti tonner/car bulldozing/concrete smashing Ultron Sentries is comparable to staggering Mukurmai IMO.

Natasha being able to kick back and tank attacks from Super Soldier level combatants like Proxima Midnight is the kind of accomplishment that makes Danny injuring her significantly without a Chi Fist a hard sell, especially with her acrobatic maneuvering.

@namesclassified: Jessica Jones is easily super soldier or super soldier+ strength wise, she rips apart steel with complete ease, Murakami can take multiple hits from her and Luke, Danny without Chi should be able to injure widow.

@avengergamer676: When I say Super Soldier tier, I'm referring to Captain America's tier, and I don't believe that Jessica Jones is easily comparable to him. I don't know if she could compete in a tug o war with Spiderman like Steve did for instance, or push a bulldozer across a football field like Deathlok can.

I'm not saying that Natasha can just stand there no selling Iron Fist punches, but in a fight against someone who's faster, more agile and who can tank attacks from people stronger then anyone that Iron Fist has ever met (Proxima), dealing enough damage to K'O her without a Chi Punch while she is trying to kill him is a hard sell.

1. cap shouldn’t be able to physically match or be anywhere near Spider-Man, Peter can Keep two sides of a large boat in the same position, Cap has NO feats on that level, Cap struggles to stop a helicopter from flying away, that isn’t even COMPARABLE to Peter’s feats.

2. Luke and Black Sky are Stronger than Proxima, not even a contest, Luke has destroyed a steel rail and Stops a speeding Car, both a strength and durability feat, WAY above Proxima or Cap.

3. Don’t compare Murakami to Ultron Sentries, just don’t. Sorry if I’m beating a bit aggressive but that’s disrespecting Murakami. I’m gonna use real world science to shed light on his durability.

distance of the fall: 1,000 feet

Murakami Weight: 63 kg (his actor weighs this much)

Speed of impact: 77.29 m/s

Time until impact: 7.89 s

Energy of Impact: 188183.52 joules

Newtons of force: 188183.52

Tons of Force: 19.189379

meaning Murakami felt 19 tons of force on impact, making him more durable than Ultron Sentries.

Who no-sells bullets, but, bullets only hit with around 304 newtons, and 16 tons of force make sentries turn into pieces (Cap’s Punch). And it seems that getting stabbed in the chest is what nearly kills Murakami, not the fall. Aside from that Ultron sentries swimming in concrete isn’t more impressive than Murakami surviving that fall.

Wish they would just effing release the Black Widow movie already

1. Peter's efforts to keep the ships halves looked to be pointless until Tony came. I won't pretend that Pete may not have way better feats (didn't watch his films yet), but lets remember, Cap has some absurd feats. The only question is which one isn't PIS or taken outta context.

He's got shit off on some heavy hitters. From Loki to Ultron to Iron Man to War Machine and even Thanos. He got it made.

2. Without calcs, I don't know how impressive stopping a car is when Deathlok (who's canonically inferior to Cap) moved a bulldozer across a football field. It's a good durability feat, but that doesn't help with scaling Murakami or Danny.

Can you link Luke Cage destroying of the steel rail? Did he rip it? Pull it from the ground? Can't compare it to Cap's feats without visuals.

That aside, Cap can move bulldozers and lift steel beams that I'm told possibly weigh well over 20 tons. Is Luke's feature comparable to these low-mid end Cap feats?

Terminal Velocity for humans is supposed to be 55/56 m/s on average, and Murakami probably wouldn't reach that from a 1000 ft (according to google), so unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by speed of impact is, this calc doesn't seem accurate.

If you think that Cap punches with the force of 16 tons, then I don't see how you'd ever think that Luke or Jessica got shit on him

Saying 'Deathlok' and 'canonically' in same sentence without a negation is funny

@namesclassified

@avengergamer676: When I say Super Soldier tier, I'm referring to Captain America's tier, and I don't believe that Jessica Jones is easily comparable to him. I don't know if she could compete in a tug o war with Spiderman like Steve did for instance, or push a bulldozer across a football field as Deathlok can.

I'm not saying that Natasha can just stand there no selling Iron Fist punches, but in a fight against someone who's faster, more agile, and who can tank attacks from people stronger then anyone that Iron Fist has ever met (Proxima), dealing enough damage to K'O her without a Chi Punch while she is trying to kill him is a hard sell.

Do you think a Chi punch can only K’O her? being real for a second, Cap is more than Strong enough to kill Widow with single punch. Cap’s best punch (without the Russo force) is weaker than an Iron Fist, You haven’t showed feats that put Proxima on Cap’s level strength wise. It however is clear that by scaling Proxima is close to Vision level, and if that‘s true dismisses Cap being on her level, Why? Vision at bare BARE minimum is multi-city black level. Are we gonna assume Cap is Multi-city block level now? Hell no! just more Russo force. And how do you think Widow compares to Luke and Jessica? She’s not even comparable to those two, I remember Jess had a feat of sending Nuke half a mile away with a single full force punch, that’s already above the super soldiers. imo, a Chi punch easily kills her, that stuff leveled a floor of a large building and the fist consistently causes shockwaves.

1. cap shouldn’t be able to physically match or be anywhere near Spider-Man, Peter can Keep two sides of a large boat in the same position, Cap has NO feats on that level, Cap struggles to stop a helicopter from flying away, that isn’t even COMPARABLE to Peter’s feats.

2. Luke and Black Sky are Stronger than Proxima, not even a contest, Luke has destroyed a steel rail and Stops a speeding Car, both a strength and durability feat, WAY above Proxima or Cap.

1. Peter's efforts to keep the ships halves looked to be pointless until Tony came. I won't pretend that Pete may not have way better feats (didn't watch his films yet), but lets remember, Cap has some absurd feats. The only question is which one isn't PIS or taken outta context.

even though it was pointless I don’t see Cap doing it, thus, Peter is Much stronger than Cap by a significant margin. Tug of war with Peter is either PIS to make Cap look good or taken outta context since you can make the argument that Peter was weaker in CW than in other films. But yeah, Steve would be ripped in half if he tried replicating that feat, He shouldn’t even be able to stun Peter considering Peter survived getting hit by a train and the force on his body was 435 tons. Calc Peter’s ferry scene is impressive and Cap will never be able to replicate it without PIS, the boat is 3,000 tons and 6,000,000 pounds, meaning Peter held 3,000,000 pounds in one of his hands, meaning his maximum is 1,500 tons In a single hand. Cap isn’t comparable to Peter, it’s not even debatable.

Cap’s got shit off on some heavy hitters. From Loki to Ultron to Iron Man to War Machine and even Thanos. He got it made.

oof. Well, Loki pretty much manhandled cap and we know Loki was holding back since he was trying to be caught. problems with him beating Ultron? Ultron scales off of Iron Man. In the Avengers movie Iron Man fought Thor and held his own Thor fought Hulk in the same movie does that Mean Captain America is Hulk’s level now? Cause he sure as hell isn’t, either Cap has plot armor as Thicc as his ass or Iron Man purposefully weakened his suit? And Thanos?

1: Cap has THICC plot armor.

or

2: Thanos held back

2. Without calcs, I don't know how impressive stopping a car is when Deathlok (who's canonically inferior to Cap) moved a bulldozer across a football field. It's a good durability feat, but that doesn't help with scaling Murakami or Danny.

Luke would have to exert a force equal or greater to the Car hitting him. The Car is going at 30-40 mph and SUV’s weigh 3,500 - 5,000+ pounds.

Can you link Luke Cage destroying of the steel rail? Did he rip it? Pull it from the ground? Can't compare it to Cap's feats without visuals.

He rammed into it, I can’t find the feat right now. Here’s a better feat of kicking a steel gate:

Here and Luke Can send a car in a circle with ONE kick, compareable to Cap’s feat of kicking a military car.

That aside, Cap can move bulldozers and lift steel beams that I'm told possibly weigh well over 20 tons. Is Luke's feature comparable to these low-mid end Cap feats?

It’s 34-50 tons to be exact. Cap didn’t lift it completely tho, he barley lifted it, so he can’t lift 50 tons, he could barely get it off the ground a Bucky even helped him a bit

@avengergamer676 said:

3. Don’t compare Murakami to Ultron Sentries, just don’t. Sorry if I’m beating a bit aggressive but that’s disrespecting Murakami. I’m gonna use real world science to shed light on his durability.

distance of the fall: 1,000 feet

Murakami Weight: 63 kg (his actor weighs this much)

Speed of impact: 77.29 m/s

Time until impact: 7.89 s

Energy of Impact: 188183.52 joules

Newtons of force: 188183.52

Tons of Force: 19.189379

meaning Murakami felt 19 tons of force on impact, making him more durable than Ultron Sentries.

Who no-sells bullets, but, bullets only hit with around 304 newtons, and 16 tons of force make sentries turn into pieces (Cap’s Punch). And it seems that getting stabbed in the chest is what nearly kills Murakami, not the fall. Aside from that Ultron sentries swimming in concrete isn’t more impressive than Murakami surviving that fall.

Terminal Velocity for humans is supposed to be 55/56 m/s on average, and Murakami probably wouldn't reach that from a 1000 ft (according to google), so unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by speed of impact is, this calc doesn't seem accurate.

If you think that Cap punches with the force of 16 tons, then I don't see how you'd ever think that Luke or Jessica got shit on him

have you established what feats Proxima has that are “Captain America level” her husband fought Cap, not herself, so how does she Scale to Steve in anyway? If she doesn’t compete with Steve?

’speed at impact‘ means your free fall speed, it’s how fast you’re moving after falling a certain distance. So the Calc is still correct. and since that true, wouldn’t that Mean Jess and Luke scale off of Steve? Since Murakami can take 19 tons of force but Luke has been able to make Murakami scream in pain for certain amount of time.

This Wank for Widow is out of hand. She not comparable to Super Soldiers, they literally treat her as a minor annoyance CONSISTENTLY STOP WITH THE WIDOW WANK! STOP WITH THE WIDOW WANK! STOP WITH THE WIDOW WANK!!!

Iron Fist winning via K'O or Death doesn't change what the outcome will be but sure, it'll kill her.

You believe that Cap punches with 16 tons of force. That takes a dookie on any feature Danny has ever accomplished in the MCU. Proxima had a brief fight with Steve in IW.

Vision was seemingly injured severely before his bout with Glave via the backstab, to the point where he lost his ability to manipulate his own density, so scaling Proxima to a prime Vison isn't as logical as me scaling her to Cap.

The fact that you'd accept her scaling her to a higher tier character in spite of her majority showings being below said tier while not making the same concession for Cap isn't fair in my eyes.

What episode did Jessica do that in? And is a feat like that really gonna win against Caps supposed 16 ton punch force?

I already eluded to a Chi punch killing Natasha on the first post you replied to.

I could potentially compromise on Peter being weaker, but dismissing Cap's feat due to Peter failing at something is harder to make a compromise on. The ferry's continued movement coupled with the fact that determining how far Peters webs stretch is impossible for now makes the feat unreliable

While I personally wouldn't use Cap's fight with Loki to hype him up usually, he accomplished the feat of staggering Loki similar to what Danny accomplished against Murakami. He doesn't need to exert his full power to not get staggered.

Iron Man was 400% Supercharged the vast majority of his first encounter with Thor, so I wouldn't scale his Civil War version based on said encounter. He doesn't have feats comparable to Thor prior to Infinity War.

Both of the two only sites I could find calcs on Luke's feat have it below 5000 kg of lifting strength and my own math has him enduring 162894 newton's of force. In the event that my calcs wrong, here's the disclaimer.

Unless kicking the steel gate is comparable to pushing 100 tons, it'd still be inferior to Cap.

Cap was suffering from injuries at the time, so that wasn't exactly peak performance. Still, it's more then Luke or Jessica have lifted to my knowledge.

And Bucky looked to be more concerned with getting from under the beam rather then helping

You can't determine whether Murakami fell long enough to reach free fall (8 seconds likely isn't enough time) and you can't determine his terminal velocity during the fall anyway, so the calc is unreliable IMO.

Proxima has a brief bout with Steve and Natasha

Okay, sorry about scaling Proxima to Vision. But momentarily fighting someone while they have help isn’t scaling to them, I made that mistake, but Proxima was fighting 2 people for a short amount of time she dosen’t scale to Steve unless there’s a feat of her fighting 1 on 1 for an extended amount of time, or the people behind the film say she scales to Steve.

@namesclassified: I was actually just a dead body, not Nuke himself

Steve displayed visible strain when blocking Proxima's strike intended for Natasha, confirming that she's in that physical ballpark in my eyes.

Don't think the short time span along with Steve having back up would change the context of that feature IMO.

@namesclassified: then explain how Nat sent Proxima flying with a kick when Winter Soldier no sold all of her attacks?

@namesclassified: Also explain how Proxima pretty much borderline stomped both Okoye and Nat?

Proxima on her own doesn’t have a lot of feats, she can’t one-shot Nat (someone who is only a minor annoyance to super soldiers) and she only gets one feat of Making Cap strain, but based on feats Cap is much superior to Proxima. Hitting your weapon on someone else’s weapon while fighting doesn’t mean you scale to them in striking strength, plus, Proxima kneed Widow, not punched, meaning it’s flawed to assume her lower striking strength is on par with her upper strength. Remember, ‘Strength’ can mean a lot of things. Attacking someone with a weapon and them stopping it Immediately with their weapon and they strain for a second doesn't mean you are in the same ballpark in terms of striking strength. Proxima and glaive where stomped by having an Inferior number and they were not expecting the attack. What are feats for Proxima’s knees outside of falling to one-shot people who are an annoyance to Captain America and Bucky? People she supposedly scales to after temporarily getting in a fight with Cap that isn’t even that long. If it was extended Cap would've won on his 1v1 since he has feats much better than someone only temporally make him strain. The fight is way too short to automatically say that they scale to each other when they have never had a proper battle.

@namesclassified: Killmonger (Super Soldier level) was toying with Dora Milaje warriors (and Okoye herself)only lost when they were blood lusted. And he was pretty much winning that battle beforehand while holding back:

Why is this important? Well, you claim Proxima is on the same level as these guys who are capable of stomping/borderline stomping characters who Proxima has trouble with while blood lusted.

@namesclassified: while Danny holds his own against superhuman have better feats then Proxima:

Elektra is superior to Proxima:

Kills around 10 hand ninjas within a few seconds

Stomps the defenders

One-shots every defender (Luke is weakened though)

yeah, Elektra has better feats.

And Elektra has legitimate FIGHTS against Luke and Jess. not hitting a weapon for a second or two. And going for the weaker of the duo Proxima would get stomped by Steve and it shows.

@namesclassified: Proxima is overwhelmed by 2 individuals who are very different in power levels. That’s kind of pathetic on Proxima’s part. She’s not as impressive as you make her seem if she gets stunned by attacks that Super Soldiers no sell.

@namesclassified: also, what better skill does Nat have over Danny? Please explain.

Danny fights multiple Hand Ninjas, better than any of Nat’s fodder busting feats

@namesclassified

1. Proxima was never sent flying by Natasha

2. I also don't understand why I need to rationalize Natasha getting stomped by Proxima. My argument is focusing on her durability, not if she can kick it with super solders.

3. You're gonna have hard time selling to anyone that a persons upper body strength is in a completely different tier to their lower body, a large stretch. Besides, Proxima punched Natasha in the face as well. Cap having difficulty with Proxima's spear thrust in conjunction with her applying her upper body strength absolutely confirms her strength level. It'd be a leap in logic to suggest otherwise just because a weapon is involved. If you tried blocking someone with the strength of a grizzly, you'd see that weapon or not. The fight can be as short as it wants to be, I got the features I need out of it.

Proxima made quick work of Natasha and Okoye while being tagged once.

Killimonger got tagged more times and even got restrained for a time. Your video goes far opposite to what you meant to prove. Killimonger struggled more then Proxima visually.

I'd also wager that Black Widow and Okoye are a more skilled team to face.

Not one of these feats showcase Elektra's physical dominance being greater then Proxima.

A few seconds is all that's need to showcase someone's strength, especially when that someone is getting tag teamed.

Proxima was sparring just fine against Steve and Natasha before Falcon came in with the drop kick. Before that Black Widow accomplished nothing in that engagement, only Cap did by breaking the tip of her weapon. Proxima barely got stunned compared to Bucky's bout with Natasha/Sharon.

The irony is that Murakami is afflicted with the exact same inconsistency illness you accuse Proxima of. Being stunned by Danny/Matt level attacks by also being fine tanking Luke Cage level assaults?

I can look up a clip of Nastaha making short work of Hydra agents if we are having a fodder contest. Stats matter more then skills here, because stats can be quantified.

@namesclassified: fodder contest? What feats do Hydra agents have over Hand Ninjas? A single hand Ninja knocked out 2 cops in 2 seconds. Has a hydra agent ever done that? Nope.

As for stats, you haven’t proven That Nat is stronger, You still haven’t.

Also strength feats for Black Sky? Wouldn’t knocking out someone who jumps off multi story buildings a strength feat?

I don't watch Agents Of Shield, so I have no first hand knowledge pertaining to the series, but according to their wiki, some Hydra Operatives have much better features then knocking out beat cops.

-Hydra guy's like Kebo could fight toe to toe with top Shield Agents like Bobbi Lee.

-A Hydra employee named Spud was able to easily outmatch British SAS/Shield Agent Lance Hunter.

-Brock Rumlow's (Crossbones) feats likely need no description from me

When Natasha has victories over guy's like Hawkeye, I question how fodder incapacitating two random cops is meant to be impressive, especially when all Hand Ninjas aren't created equal.

1. I cited Natasha's features against Chitauri's and Ultron Sentries in my very first reply to you.

You however, still haven't explained why I should hold Danny's physical strength in the regard that you seem to want me to. I've explained to you why your calc regarding Murakami's durability is unreliable.

2. Knocking someone out that can jump multiple story buildings can probably be a strength feature, but I doubt their getting anymore then wall level attack potency based on falling calcs I've seen. Did Danny knock out a Black Sky?

Marcus is a freelance mercenary, not a Hydra trained operative. Whatever you think my point is, it wouldn't have anything to do with him.

Your doing the exact same thing that your accusing me of. You don't have confirmation that the Hand members that Danny fought possess the ability to knock out 2 cops in two seconds (a mediocre feat all things considered), yet unless I'm somehow mistaken, you cited said feature in hopes of hyping them up above traditional fodder status, as if fighting people who can incapacitate cops is noteworthy compared to facing superhuman aliens and killer robots. Your assumptions that the bulk of all Hand Ninja are equal in skill isn't written law.

You questioned whether any Hydra employee have features comparable to knocking out two random cops, so I answered. Your assumptions about my intentions beyond that are invalid. I mentioned Natasha's battle with Hawkeye to remind you that Danny's feats against fodder Hand fighters should have no place here, whether they're cop K'Oers or not. It is not a hook, line and sinker.

How can I leave out context for a feature that I didn't even talk about? 2012 Cap is capable of combating his Endgame self, so your imposed limitation on him is sort of retroactively rendered null in void.

Even if you don't believe that, Chitauri's can damage cars by jumping on them.

There's also Natasha's feat's against Ultron Sentries. And her minor feats against Bucky.

Daredevil is certainly superhuman, but still only Black Widow tier by MCU standards, as opposed to Jessica or Luke.

1. Jessica Jones is quite a bit stronger then Danny based on their respective bouts with Luke.

2. You definitely need the durability necessary to make use of your strength.

3. Oneshotting random Hand fighters doesn't mean that oneshotting Natasha is doable. Fodders are shorts of feats.