Oh no!!!!!!!!!
Oh no!!!!!!!!!
This was exactly what i was thinking when i said that lol, funny enough this also has the potential to kill Storm if you were to catch her off guard.
Multiple realities spanning storm headass can't cure a broken neck.
@professorrespect: 1- It was directly focused on Jean when she was being tested inside heart of the Celestial while she was holding back the "small sun" and continued even after she broke into the celestials mind. It's relevant here because she was able to perform to higher end feats with TK and TP at the same time, both of which would seemingly require far more effort then Xemnu would require of her.
2- Clearly it says alot because Rogue can effortlessly maintain that level of drain without contact now and Juggernaut has no feats or arguments to defend against that. She keeps draining....what does he do? Nothing, because he has no defense.
There's 30+ years of story that suggest that Rogue would have no trouble draining his power source since she's already done it and that she would be able to handle the mental strain since she's already done it. She's contained billions of personas from the Hecatomb, the combined personas of every hero on earth and multiple gamma based powersets which have better feats of causing mental strain then whatever Juggernaut would be putting out. Plus Juggernaut can't KO base Rogue without high effort let alone a Rogue who has amped herself with some of his own physicals so even if your view on her needing to adjust was correct he'd still lose because he can't take advantage of that time frame.
Juggernaut at this time was a serious contender to the Savage Hulk of the 80s and 90s. Rogue was recently taking hits from a guy who had just punted modern Hulk into space in the same series. Her actual damage soak at current levels is ridiculously underrated and moreso then anything, she'd have his own to add it.
3- She's gotten past better defenses then his own since the 60s and scales over the best person he's ever blocked by that person's repeated admittance. This point is moot. He's not defending against someone he's failed to defend against, who has better feats then the people he's failed to defend against and the people he's succeeded in defending against.
No Betsy did not use the Psi-knife to get past his helmet.
We can use pre-M'krann Xavier if you want since it's closer to the timeframe.... Onslaught saga begins with Juggernaut getting mindwiped and BFR'd by base Onslaught without Franklin or Nate batteries. Someone who current Jean scales over as well.
How is Bedlam Xavier+ at that point?
4- Rogue-
And yet every point made either doesn't apply here or applies in Rogue's favor here with point i'm making....so yea I wouldn't repeat myself either were I you.
Sue-
Internals, restraints, stalls in genral....any way you put it she's making him vulnerable to the others in this enviornment.
Jean-
It matters because Jean is either more skilled or more powerful then most of the people he has feats for and with her teammates she has more then enough time to exploit that here.
Storm-
She matches, is protected by Sue or is recovered by Wanda. The team makes her more effective and covers for her for her weaknesses while she adds on to there strengths that give them the win.
5- Wanda and Storm have lots of low showings. But unlike Hulk they have a whole team to cover for them here or give them time to actually do something. Hulk's teammates aren't making it to the halfway point of the battle due to bad match ups and hard counters. So provided Wanda doesn't decide to high end and give him a problem he can't solve, he has to get past everyone else working together when it takes some of his better feats to drop just Sue. He's a massive problem that they have multiple ways to deal with.
1- No. Jean's test specifically involved a large psychic wave used by the celestial in order for it to get pass her defenses. She still maintained her TP protection over the others from the Celestials pressure and the her telekinetic hold over the "miniature sun" she split apart for them to clear the room.
The miniature sun is the heart of the celestial, it's relevance here is that the feat of separating and containing it strained Jean's TK beyond what Xemnu is capable of doing and she was able to maintain it while under psychic pressure that Xemnu isn't capable of putting her under.
It's just one of many ways Xemnu is utterly incapable of beating her while both her powers are available.
2- Considering Rogue has already drained Juggernaut repeatedly with none of the problems your suggesting i don't see why they would suddenly be present now.
Being a direct link to Cyttorak has never helped Juggernaut before in physical fights nor will it help him when he's getting out statted by Rogue after being drained for a while. Even if he maintains his power levels he'd still eventually go down to his own stats here.....or more likely his own stupidity.
3- Jean between the 60s and now has faced far better and more consistent defenses then Juggernaut. Period.
60s Jean plus "help from Xavier" is still less then current Jean so i don't see why you wouldn't take that claim seriously. Juggernaut being out done on panel by weaker versions of characters who state Jean is their better seems like a pretty clear argument though.
Juggernaut "getting stung" by 80's Betsy in TP at all is enough to say that he would do worse against current Betsy who is still completely out classed by current Jean. There isn't any case to say that his defenses could perform better against 2024 Jean Grey then they did when they were bypassed by 80's Betsy Braddock
So Juggernaut's powers were fluctuating by 1996 so I shouldn't count Onslaught, but I should count Bedlam even though that happened in 1999......
At this point Juggernaut's resistance feats presented are against 60's Xavier, (something surpassed by a morals off incarnation of Xavier) and Bedlam who failed to penetrate a distracted Juggernaut's helmet in the same book that Xavier was able to, and who is Xavier+ level via a sneak attack that he was also able to perform on her.
I don't see the evidence to support him defending here.
4- Rogue-
You don't need to challenge as the point remains.
Internals. restraints & stalls-
Unless your saying he's shrugging off Sue's internals and walking straight through her forcefields then I'd think they'd slow him down enough initially that the team could take advantage.
Jean-
Jean hasn't TP'd my local bus driver either....doesn't mean she can't.
At the lowest ends she's a tier or more above base Cable to who TP'd savage Hulk and at highest ends broke into the mind of a celestial and guy who enslaved multiple celestials.
As far as this thread the only argument for Savage is swatting away Xemnu who she also outclasses by any measurement.
Storm-
Sue has far better feats of multitasking then "puts shield around teammate during fight". I could see if it was an actual physical exchange sure.....but from a thunder clap at range? Storm will be protected and free to spam AOE to add to the slow down of Hulk.
5- I mean if there is a case for it then sure i'd like to see it, but realistically even if Jean fought Juggernaut and Rogue fought Xemnu there's still more then enough feats between them to say they'd win despite the disadvantages relatively early in this particular fight, and in Rogue's case, come out better for the victory.
i do think that the hulk is overrated. That is my opinion and it isn't a crime to have an opinion if it doesn't hurt anyone or did it hurt you?
I'm sure UF will go over the rest but just on this point, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having an opinion on something. If you watch a movie and don't like it then that is a completely personal take. However, if you say you don't like a movie but have never actually watched it... Sure it would still be your personal opinion, but not exactly backed by anything. He is implying that you are doing the latter, and I would say that thinking Hulk is overrated from a battle forums perspective is relevant to a battle thread. Especially one where you believe his team (of which he is the strongest member) loses.
remember the statement it is from avengers: no surrender but it doesn't apply to savage hulk because that was devil hulk
Savage Hulk is outright confirmed to be more powerful than Devil Hulk at least twice, and around equal per Ewing himself when he's not particularly angry.
This is part of what Underfire's point was when he asked you to clarify exactly why you believe Hulk is overrated.
he can sense every kind of radiation, Sue has her powers thanks to cosmic radiation
This won't work as her invisibility recently concealed her from The Overseer while he was searching every frequency of radiation
@professorrespect- 1- Lol no, as in "No, your wrong....again"
As far as the psychic wave, i disagree but we can judge that however you want. She tanked that wave and still was able to protect the others minds and perform the TK feat of separating a "mini sun". Then she was tested, which was clearly causing her pain and she resisted that while still protecting the minds and holding back the celestials heart. The fact is Xemnu doesn't have the feats to pressure her to the levels she resisted here so the rest is irrelevant.
It's a hyperbolic to a degree, but it's also described as the celestials pacemaker and the celestials' power source.....so if I choose one of those it's still more power then Xemnu can unleash to strain Jean.
Again, there's no offense Xemnu has, telepatically, telekinetically or physically, that can surpass that strain or that difficulty. This is just one feat, I can just as easily reference half a dozen more. He doesn't have the feats to do what you said he would do.
Defending from Onslaught's physical and mental attacks at once, Resisting Cassandra Nova's TK and TP trying to rip her apart, shielding millions of minds from an attack that Word of God says would've flat out killed them while battling a giant monster without visible strain,.....what exactly is Xemnu doing here that you think is pressing her?
2- Rogue did it twice, in Marvel Team Up and then again in Uncanny X-Men....it's repeatedly worked and she was at far weaker drain levels then current and didn't have AOE drain to aid her. It's literally back to back appearances for Juggernaut under the same writer.
Objectively being true is an interesting statement given your takes on other Juggernauts.....but given we've seen this one play out on panel I'll digress and stick to the proven argument that Rogue can down him.
We aren't presuming Rogue goes after Juggernaut, I sited options for dealing with Juggernaut and now were talking about how they would work....she can also go after Xemnu for which they would work even easier. The fact that her powers work on Juggernaut has already been confirmed across multiple encounters.
3- Jean has TP'd Juggernaut since the 60s, it just wasn't him at full power so were giving him a pass. Aside from that though the only other time they've encountered eachother as "enemies" was when he was asking for her help.
I can leave it out of quotation marks.... Even if Xavier gave 100% of his full power to 60's Jean it still wouldn't make up the gap that he took from being ignored by Galactus (despite help) in 80's to being able to throw a planets thoughts at him and tank the same while weakened in the 90s. And even then, we have Xavier and Word of God stating repeatedly that he's stronger then ever post M'krann crystal repowering him in the 2000's and yet still weaker then current Jean. The only thing being ignored is that math isn't mathing in your premise.
80's Betsy (as shown), late 90s Xavier (as shown), pre-amp Onslaught (as shown) have all gotten past Juggernaut's defenses. Do I also need to show them saying Jean is superior to them?
His showings against Xavier (infamously known to hold back) don't really mean much when we saw what happened when Xavier was morals off against Juggernaut. The weakest version of Betsy going all out and hurting him proves only that the bare minimum to break his defenses is lower then you think it is and that his defenses are consistently bypassed even during this supposedly peak era.
Did you actually read what I wrote? I said at the beginning of the Onslaught saga, not at the end. Maybe your assuming just the event, i'm talking about when he got thrown from canada to the US and couldn't remember who did it because he was mindwiped. This is before he was imprisoned in the gem by Onslaught when he confronted him for mind screwing him
Resisting a person who's only feats are underperforming Xavier who got past the defenses in the same story doesn't make the feat better.... it makes her worst.
4-Rogue-
Lol it's garbage because you wanted to argue against panel....idk how to help with that.
Sue-
I'm not implying that Sue is gonna be going for killing blows against Hulk, in fact i'm counting on intelligence prevailing and her just going for the stall rather then doing things that will just make him angrier and more aggressive. Doing internal damage that slows him down is just the kind of mid point with internals that Sue usually uses that will give her team time to exploit the play.
Jean-
Jean already did something, you have no proof she can't still do it. And scaling from people who have done it supports that she'll do it again. Plus unless Jean is playing hide and seek with Juggs her being shit at looking for people doesn't really help him here.
On Cable-
So Cable repeatedly breaking into Hulk's mindscape despite added defenses by Onslaught means nothing, despite the fact that he not only frees Hulk the second time but Hulk in his own book later references Cable getting past his defenses and has flip out because of it which Cable had planned for.....ok. Idk what exactly you proved with Pyro but your gonna need to walk me through how someone breaking into the mind of someone else isn't a feat.
Storm-
I don't have Sue attending to Juggernaut at all, because at this point Rogue on panel draining the dude to base human twice mean's he's not a factor that I need a heavy hitter on.
Now if you want to argue moving flying targets then no, Sue has only done that on select occasions as far as I can tell....but It's not like Storm is zooming around like Johnny. In fact the reason she is so terrible a glass cannon is because she mostly stands still even if she's flying. Storm floating above her without much movement...yea I can see Sue shielding that very easily.
5- Lol...Jean defends Rogues mind while entering Juggernauts. Xemnu has no feats to suggest he can get around even an occupied Jean and Juggernaut has no feats to say he requires her full attention.
Xemnu gets drained, Juggernaut gets TP.....or even Juggernaut runs around slamming things while Jean dodges and defends Rogue's mind while she drain stomps Xemnu.
Even in bad match ups the bricks aren't winning....maybe if they added another person to occupy the team, but as it stands I see them struggling and that's without applying Wanda for at least one guranteed KO.
And Xavier has never been able to TP Cain.
80's Betsy (as shown), late 90s Xavier (as shown), pre-amp Onslaught (as shown) have all gotten past Juggernaut's defenses. Do I also need to show them saying Jean is superior to them?
I'm satisfied
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