Emma Frost vs Jean Grey

Jean.

Eh Em

I see scans and feats being posted though, you simply choose to ignore them

@lordofallhumans: Actually you did not post any feats that are in context. Especially the Jean Vs Phoenix Emma feat (Which is not in context at all). All you have done is yell at me saying jean wins, but you have no evidence. Dude i'm not trying to argue with you, i just want to have a good debate but you just telling me to leave because i "don't have a point". i'm not saying your opinion is wrong at all. as a matter of fact i can 100% say this battle is very debatable, that's why i bumped it, i like fights where you can go back and forth on which character wins.

Emma's feats > Jeans feats for the most part. and every time jean fought emma she had phoenix. Emma has also beaten people that have beaten and harmed jean before. and statements should put Emma at least on Jeans level.

Most of jeans high end feats have phoenix, thats why is difficult to see how powerful she really is. my mind can be changed on who wins, you just have been unable to change it.

I feel like were being ignored. Are we being ignored? I think were being ignored.

@emmafrostxmen: are you blind or illiterate? Why are you ignoring the posts of @koays and @del_torro

i mean New X-men pretty much painted a very clear picture of who is stronger... you shouldn't need that much evidence

@koays: I think we are being ignored. I don’t know how this is debatable since like I said before, Emma herself believes Jean to be more powerful than her. And why not listen to her? She’s very knowledgeable on the subject, I’m pretty sure she’d know.

I would bet on the Phoenix

Jean wrecks.

Jean Grey was possessed by the Phoenix Force in New X-Men, so it doesn't count.

@del_torro said:

@

@corapvp said:

@lordofallhumans: Dude, if Jean were powerful enough, she could have simply subdued Nova and then administering the chip thing would have been so easy, but she could not. Nova straight smacked her down bleeding. I do agree that throughout the build-up of Red, it was hinted that Nova could not actually take Jean and they were a match for each other, but it is shown in the final issue that clearly Nova>Jean otherwise Jean would not have been on the ground bleeding with Nova standing on top of her, she would have subdued Nova if she could.

@koays true but let's not pretend that Jean didn't have prep of her own. If she really can match Nova, then why would she take an entire week or whatever to have the helmets prepared? If she were Nova's match, she could have simply mentally shielded her team from Nova, or better yet wrestle away Nova's control over the soldiers. Also it wasn't just a punch, Jean is bleeding and on the ground with Nova seemingly not scratched and standing over her, it really does look like Nova beat her down easily despite them depicted as being equals throughout the series

Nova beat Jean in a telekinesis battle, not telepathy. Even then Jean got back up and told Nova they weren't trying to kill her. Nova tried telepathy on Jean and could do absolutely nothing.

Let's compare it to new Xmen where they first met, and now that both Jean and Nova claim that Jean is stronger.

First off, Jean vs Cassandra Nova, new Xmen #116

Here Nova completely and utterly dominates Jeans mind and has her on the ground drooling.

Then Xmen Red #11

She's trying to tear Jeans mind apart but it's getting no reaction. It's after this they shift to a telekinetic battle.

Let's compare other scenarios. Xavier amped by Cerebra Vs Nova

Compared to Jean using searebro

Jean removed all her mental defenses and let Nova into her mind. Nova couldn't tell that she was being played by Jean and fighting a construct the whole time, at the end Nova confirms that Jean has grown stronger.

I think they're on the same level now

First off, Jean lost every fight agains Nova. Secondly, in that scan where she said she would let down her mental defenses and pulled the illusions on Nova, Jean was boosted by Searebro, which was stated to be more powerful than Cerebro and Cerebra. Keep in mind that Cerebra augments a person's power tenfold, meaning Searebro was more powerful than that. These are non-feats for Jean.

@elpendejo: I mean really..shes basically spelled it out.

you need to go back and read it again... Jean was unable to tap into the Phoenix's powers until she died (in the sun with Logan) that was well after Jean brutally destroyed Emma.

so at this point im questioning... did you post that out of ignorance/you forgot or did you attempt to lie thinking i hadn't read the series?

@stormcell: So again, explain why Nova couldnt TP her on Genosha the second time. Or get past her when she attacked Searebro. Or what the point of any of the book was if she was strong enough to beat Jean.

@koays: And someone already pointed out that she’s grown in power based on her performance against Cassandra. Showing that Jean’s performances post resurrection are outdated

@koays said:

@elpendejo: I mean really..shes basically spelled it out.

That's Jean with the Phoenix. Don't you see the Phoenix Effect? She is the White Phoenix of the Crown when possessed by the PF, afterall.

However, Emma doesn't feel that way about Jean as a basic telepath. In fact, she said in Jean's solo title that Jean was underwhelming as a basic telepath.

Jean obviously lost that fight, and the writer was just trying to get the Jean fans off his back. We saw the same thing happen earlier with Jean fans in a Xavier discussion with a writer. If Jean could have beaten Nova, she would have done so, and then give her that compassion stuff.

@stormcell: It is a better feat than Jean’s but it doesn’t change the fact that Emma’s stated that Jean’s more powerful than her. And again, Jean projected images to the moon which is over 200,000 miles from earth. 10 times the distance of Emma’s broadcast.

Emma broadcast to nearly 200 minds at once scattered across the globe, and she did so easily. The fact is, we have never seen Emma try and project out to the moon, however, time and again, we've seen her succeed at feats Jean failed at.

@stormcell: They just used an image of Phoenix Jean because it’s the most popular version of her. She was talking about Jean without the Phoenix. If she was talking about Jean with the Phoenix, I doubt she’d call her gifted as a psychic

She said teen Jean was underwhelming not adult Jean

Why assume she could broadcast to the moon when she hasn’t done anything close or above that? Because a dated version of Jean couldn’t beat somebody? No.

@stormcell said:

@warlockmage said:

@stormcell said:

@warlockmage said:

@emmafrostxmen said:

@stormcell: Nice post, people keep claiming "Jean is stronger", without any evidence at all. you on the other hand backed up all of your claims with evidence.

i mean New X-men pretty much painted a very clear picture of who is stronger... you shouldn't need that much evidence

Jean Grey was possessed by the Phoenix Force in New X-Men, so it doesn't count.

you need to go back and read it again... Jean was unable to tap into the Phoenix's powers until she died (in the sun with Logan) that was well after Jean brutally destroyed Emma.

so at this point im questioning... did you post that out of ignorance/you forgot or did you attempt to lie thinking i hadn't read the series?

Wrong. When Jean died and came back with Logan, that merely fully opened the Phoenix consciousness within her. When she fought Emma, she said in plain English, "Now it's just you, me, AND THE PHOENIX," while manifesting a huge Phoenix Effect. In fact, she got the Phoenix Force as early as New X-Men issue 120:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/kf4JlC5RqC-pvSKvYB5YGHhvCVfgJnLohS8RXlGR2QbQ2ZrTNx_9FsklYRDWznhGQb-oLcbL3ZJO=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/A1hbAm0e-nqYWrPNGxefXuT3QtKSjP86XnbiUYFQRuAFVOoWIW-1wey4-LHfLXql9cBP0jSnUE4a=s1600

@koays said:

@stormcell: Ok lets use facts. Shortly after taking on the Phoenix costume Jean has to reach out for a global TP feat contacting Cable, Warren and Nate (who is on the other side of the world) when she doesn't know where they are. This concerns Scott because he believes the strain had to be alot for her. She says she's fine, though this is a rare highend feat for her in this era. Compare that too recent Uncanny where she calls X-Men around the planet all at once to come to her aid.

Also compare the fact that Jean was able to jump into Emma's body when Xavier later can't even use TP in the same room as her without interference. Scans and feat sir

I've already dealt with Jean jumping into Emma's body. She was only able to do that because Emma had sent herself into some kind of psychic comatose state which buried her psyche deep in her own body. The issue stated that she would have never been able to do this to Emma had Emma been conscious. On top of all of this, Jean was limited with this feat. She could only send her mind into a fellow psi whereas the issue stated Emma could send her mind into anyone's body whether they were conscious or not.

As far as Jean reaching out globally, here is Emma sending Scott's thoughts out to the scattered 198 remaining mutants in the world globally:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/8/85507/1694573-uncanny_x_men_500__zone_megan__pg34_35.jpg

That tops Jean's feat BIG TIME.

@marvelfan1992 said:

@del_torro said:

@elpendejo: I think Emmas position would be something like this

Xavier

Cassandra Nova

Jean

Emma

Exodus

Rachel

Psylocke

I personally still would rank it as Jean=Xavier=Nova or Jean/Xavier/Nova whichever is the right way to illustrate it

There is absolutely no way Jean=Xavier. Xavier has feats that completely blows Jean out of the water. It's not even a comparison as going by their feats, Professor X is several magnitudes higher than Jean on the power scale. Trust me, you don't want to go there with me. Heck, even Nova doesn't compete with Xavier in the TP department.

@emmafrostxmen said:

@stormcell: Nice post, people keep claiming "Jean is stronger", without any evidence at all. you on the other hand backed up all of your claims with evidence.

Thanks!

You have Storm in your name so I'm just gonna ignore you as I know dealing with your kind will lead nowhere. :)

@stormcell: Lmao are you really reading post. Or just talking here man? My post was simply about comparing Jean to Xavier. Xavier cannot enter Icemans mind because of the interference of Emma's unconscious mind. Meanwhile Jean was able to enter into that same mind. When he sees what Jean's done he has no idea how she even did it. It's the same coma. What are you talking about?

Jean contacting the X-Men has nothing to do with Emma's feat. It's a comparison of her feats pre and post Morrison because that's what we were talking about. Jean's growth in powers. You didnt read the post.

Plus Emma's feat is contacting less then 198 (minus the majority that were already there) mutants around the world that had already been found by Cerebro. Jean's is sending a message to 50plus X-Men around the world that she has no clue to the location of prior.

You wanna talk feats then show me Emma defending against anyone in X-Mans tier. Holding a spirit in place so that Xavier can talk to Moira before she dies. Show me Emma getting through Juggernauts helmet, or holding another persons mind inside her own. Show me her splitting Apocalypse from possessing someone or entering another dimension with TP. Or even better, show me one time when Emma Frost is called the most powerful telepath on the planet by a character or the narrator or even remotely implied to be superior to Xavier in anything.

Because heres the thing. By Age 12 Jean Grey was able to sense pinpoint calm Scott Summers pain and while Xavier states he can only detect him through her senses. That's a day one feat that compares to Xavier and supports the character defining arc if her having raw power comparable if not greater then his.

Hasn't this been done before in comics? I'm pretty sure Jean won most if not all of their battles. Although that could have been when she had the Phoenix. Either way I think Jean just slightly edges Emma out.

@theleeaboveall: there was only one fight with Phoenix, at the Hellfire Club. In New X-Men there was no fight, Jean attacked and dominated Emma who attempted to defend herself with her diamond form and telepathy and Jean basically laughed at her attempts.

@koays: I guess you could say Emma’s power feats don’t really hold up anymore. At least when comparing to the top tier telepaths above her.

@elpendejo: See that's the thing. Shes hung with Sinister, projected images globally, and has more Astral projection, group combat and pure skill feats then nearly anyone over her. Their just arguing the wrong points by trying to say shes stronger then people shes not.

Jean had the Phoenix Force in the New X-Men clash. It doesn't count. Jean even acknowledged her use of the PF.

@koays: Exactly, if they want to argue a win for Emma, they can’t base it on power, that’s a losing battle. What they should do is focus on skill. At least that’s debatable. But I doubt it’d help them since the skill difference between Emma and Jean is smal and wouldn’t help Emma anyway.

Okay, are you really trying to compare Xavier to Jean Grey? LOL! Xavier was not only constantly stated to be the most powerful psi on the planet, but he has the feats to back it up.

1) X-Men #90: Xavier projects his astral form a great distance to talk to Galactus:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/NhSlE6rAhD4fXZRRal-ILA4YJ8IOEzvcjv0wj_TzmvZE6CP4OQ2UbXK9S-TBuAwGW2AohDQtilMD5Q=s1600

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/xULEBCUPWYBSO2EU26uG7GFZUioaCaUwCFO750rNPwQG0-KWAZJ-jSQRZDDtKECuUhC1RAZVls7lVQ=s1600

Note in the second scan how it states there are 8 billion skrulls on the planet. Now, after establishing contact with Galactus despite the distance, Xavier channels all of the feelings of every skrull on the planet to Galactus. So, he connects with all 8 billion minds and shows Galactus their collective thoughts and feelings:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/ci8FWW2fHyGDMGELDlZ5iD7ejAR33ODqTgoYVHXVXINjXfw_GEVj6QxyGtHaK6fnUHToG-wOVFSn6A=s1600

2) Xavier beat Nova down badly in New X-Men...and this is when Nova's powers were enhanced tenfold by Cerebra:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Rzs7KmyB3DjWxqWF66aOa_3AV9V1tBKW9qZC-SFN7JXnpNAm8y81_T138Za9vXd4kJs2kFXk1WnZ=s1600

3) Xavier was also able to battle the Dark Phoenix on all the infinite planes of existence at the same time: https://imgur.com/a/aFv5f

4) When Shadow King mind controlled the planet, he clearly stated in the issue that Xavier was the only psi who could have been a threat to him and stopped him. In other words, Xavier is on a comparable level to where he could have mind controlled the Earth's population as well. Jean was in the story, and she went the way of every other telepath on the planet. In other words, Jean's power was negligible.

5) Xavier reaches across space to a planet and channels their minds to defeat Ego the Living Planet: http://i.imgur.com/wRgRg4s.jpg

6) Xavier defeats Rachel, who appears to have at least a portion of the Phoenix Force: https://imgur.com/a/f98dx

7) Xavier contacts Kitty and Nightcrawler from half a star system away: http://i.imgur.com/s5vGtPP.jpg

Don't even mention Xavier when talking about Jean. Jean is a complete joke by comparison.

@elpendejo: Exactly. The only statement we have on skill between them is Exodus saying that Xavier, Sinister, Jean and Emma are the only ones skilled enough to have hidden Kittys memories the way they were in Messiah Complex.

@koays: So basically Emma has no hope of winning. Jean’s power covers any skill difference they could have.

I mean, heck, in "Bloodties," we saw Exodus easily mop the floor with Jean, Crystal, Quicksilver, and Wanda combined, and then he dragged them around in a TK grip while they were powerless to do anything against him, yet Xavier was stated in the same story to be more powerful than Exodus and the most powerful mind on the planet (a claim that was constantly made about the Prof.).

Jean has no feats to compete with Emma without the PF boosting her.

@stormcell: Rachel didn’t have the Phoenix force and scaling makes Jean comparable to 1,2,5, and 7. Rachel’s read the minds of everyone on the planet and she’s also astral traveled across a universe unaided. She’s also been stated to be the second most powerful telepath on the planet, next to Xavier. This was when Emma has her powers. Rachel said also that Jean’s above her in power, making Jean second to Xavier in power. Emma’s not more powerful than Jean plain and simple. And as for the others.

3.He wouldn’t have been able to win if it wasn’t for Jean holding the Phoenix back

4. I’m pretty sure you’re talking about the 90s, therefore outdated

@stormcell: Let me introduce you to scaling.

1 He sent thoughts and feelings yes. However Xavier being a planet level telepath this is easily within his abilities since telepaths are constantly hearing thoughts and feelings in their range. How do we know this isnt out of Jean's league? Because not only has she read the planets mind entirely when looking for Xavier but also has on panel statements putting her above Rachel Grey who has Astral projected from Shiar space to Earth and also read every mind on the earth and categorized them.

On panel statements are greater then your opinion.

2. Xavier didnt beat Nova. Nova stomped in their first encounter, stole his body in their second and in the third was rigged to return to his body by Jean which caused Nova immense pain causing her to abandon her his body. This is backed up by the entire issue before this being about how much of a strain Jean had holding 2 minds in one body. He had nothing to do with this feat, and even credits it to Jean 2 issues later. The only 2 characters with Nova resistance feats are Emma at the end of Antonishing and Jean at multiple points in Red.

3. That is literally his highest end feat. And the very next time he faces the Phoenix it traps him in Rachel's mind for hours while he thinks hes been there for minutes. After that he sends Jean in. The time after that which is also the scene when the Nova feat is explained, he flat out states hes afraid to go deeper into Jean's mind for fear of being incinerated when facing it. The time after that Cyclops kills him. Xavier is 1/4 against the Phoenix. Jean beat Phoenix frag amped Maddie and Emma and both she and her younger self punked it during Ressurection.

4- Shadowing lost to and was imprisoned by Psylocke. His origin story is about him being ripped from his body by an amateur Xavier. Outside of Astral plane prep feats he isnt that much of a threat and has been overcome by people without TP.

5- Yet Jean reaches holds someone between life and death so he can say goodbye to them. Your point?

6- This shows me you havent read the comics and are just regurgitating things you've read. That's from AvX, Rachel doesnt have the Phoenix and as already stated Jean is stronger then Rachel.

The only joke here is you arguing against panel. Because 3 characters have been stated by narration at different points to be the strongest mind on the planet. And thats Xavier, X-Man and Jean Grey. And Jean has repeatedly been shown by statement by Xavier to be capable of things he isnt.

Is she above him? I dont know, hes had a couple boost. Are they comparable? Absolutely. Because the character has stated multiple times he cant replicate or understand some of her feats.

And character statements are greater then your opinion.

Jean has always been stated to be second in power to Xavier since the 90s. The problem is, her showings contradict that statement. She was a constant joke everytime she crossed swords with Exodus. Nate Grey easily overpowered her, and she acknowledged him to be her superior (she even stated Cable with the techo-virus to be stronger than her, too, IIRC). She lost to Cassandra Nova badly. She was too scared to even attempt a psychic fight against Legion. Even though Shadow King is technically not a telepath, but a psychic demonic entity born from the first nightmare, she was constantly shown to be a joke compared to him. Then, of course, Emma Frost outfeats Jean. So, any claims about Jean being "this powerful" or "that powerful" in canon is not backed up by her actual feats/showings.

Here is another perfect example of the problem with claims about Jean's powers:

Notice in the scan below, it states that JEAN claims "no shields, natural or artificial can withstand her psychic powers..."

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Bkplx8Vq7URModUCg66YIMKkecvnQptyIhWQa2m5ryheRf8GupzFlwzcSjhCtKLJmYMSCTGzTYhh=s1600

Now, earlier in the same issue, we get this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/GbR4wFTDT5oG94Gl-rQvwHu7-55Gl-X2pJWt-WaGEuTg_CJKtouKKVBlDOCL3GjJ0j6gUpiTwCpW=s1600

So, you see? I care about feats, not what "so and so" says about Jean's powers. She is not as powerful as Emma and a host of other telepaths.

Now, onto another Emma/Jean instance some of you try and use:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-6770375

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-6770376

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111188890/6770377-6558810777-RCO00.jpg

Regarding the Emma/Jean scans, notice how Emma said Jean was underwhelming as a basic telepath (in other words, when she isn't being possessed by the Phoenix Force and parading around as the White Phoenix of the Crown). Not only that, but Ghost Jean sucker punched Emma. Even Teen Jean, who was carring Ghost Jean inside of her, didn't know Ghost Jean was about to attack Emma. Then, while Emma was rendered unconscious by the psychic sucker punch from Ghost Jean, both Ghost Jean and Teen Jean were struggling to keep unconscious Emma down. This actually helps Emma, not Jean.

1) Scanning the planet for a person's mind isn't the same thing as taking in the sum of 8 billions minds' emotions and feelings collectively. Let alone psi-linking all of that to Galactus's mind. When you scan for a person's mind, you're simply sending out a psychic sweep across the planet in search of an individual's unique psi-pattern.

2) Nova did not beat Xavier telepathically in their first encounter like you say. When Xavier told Jean to stand back because Nova was far too much for her, he was about ready to shut Nova down before she TK blasted him. Also, when she stole his body, she used Cerebra to enhance her powers tenfold when she pulled it off. This hardly counts as a victory for Nova. Get your facts straight. As for Jean holding two minds in her body at once, she was boosted by Cerebra and the Phoenix Force when she did that. Xavier, on the other hand, was able to hold both his mind and Jean's in his body at the same time without half the strain and without anything boosting his power.

3) Jean NEVER beat Phoenix frag amped Emma. Jean was dead and connected with the Phoenix Force in the White Hot Room when she pulled that Phoenix fragment out of Emma, hence when the fragment asked how Jean could do that, she said, "I am you," and then she took it back to the White Hot Room with her.

4) Shadow King was imprisoned by Psylocke only because she attacked him while all of his energy was being expended mind-controlling the entire Earth's population. She even admitted that she could not contain his power, but didn't have to. All she had to do was contain his nexus, and he would be powerless. Remember that he exposed his nexus to her while he ignored her as he was intoxicated with mind-controlling the world. That said, he acknowledged Xavier as the only threat to his power in that story, and was proven right. No other psi was anywhere near strong enough to challenge him. That means Xavier is of comparable strength to be able to mind-control the Earth's population as well. That's FAR FAR FAR above Jean's power grade.

Jean is a joke compared to these other psis as she doesn't have the feats to back up your claims.

@stormcell: You dont read comics, you read scans. It's obvious because your misquoting all over the place and arguing against panel. Were done here.

Actually, I own these comics. You're the one who reads scans. You completely ignored the context of the Psylocke containing Shadow King instance in "Psi-War". You completely lied about Nova stomping Xavier in their first encounter by ignoring critical aspects of the story like her having to use Cerebra (which enhanced her powers tenfold) to steal his body. Furthermore, you ignored the fact that Xavier was about to shut her down telepathically in their very first encounter until she struck first with a TK blast. You also ignored the fact that Jean was the White Phoenix of the Crown at the time she ripped the fragment of the Phoenix Force from Emma in "Endsong". I'm merely calling you out on all of this and you can't handle it. So, c-ya!

@stormcell: LMAO

I’m with koays here. I don’t think there’s much to discuss. Feats, statements, and powerscaling are in Jean’s favor

@marvelfan1992: Emma also has feats on and above jeans level of power, she has beaten exodus (who beat Jean twice), and has stated in jeans solo series that Jean is underwhelming without the Phoenix. This fight is very debatable....I’m trying not to be bias here but no one has any feats for Jean where she didn’t use the Phoenix force.

@elpendejo: Emma said in jeans solo series that Jean is underwhelming without Phoenix, so Current statements are actually on Emma’s side. Also Emma’s feats are also on jeans level as well.

@emmafrostxmen: She didn't beat Exodus it was a stalemate. Dust beat Exodus, who is nowhere near as powerful as he was in the 90s when he was a team buster. Emma had trouble getting into the mind of M back then without being violently thrown back by psi backlash, while Jean at least decade earlier was mind raping helmeted Juggernaut and Hulk with nascent telepathy.

@koays: To be fair stormcell actually is the only person putting the feats in context.

Everyone else was using Jean vs Phoenix Emma as an example why Jean should win, but stormcell put the feat in context because it wasn’t a real fight.

@lordofallhumans: Sorry, I misspoke. I meant stalemated.....Which is still better than Jean did

@emmafrostxmen: within context it's not better because he was far stronger in the 90s than he was with Emma, on top of him and Jean not fighting. She tried to talk to him telepathically and he forced her out of his mind. She then went about her business trying to save people on Avalon, because he wouldn't listen to her and continued his fight with Holocaust, which was destroying Avalon.

@emmafrostxmen: no he didn't he completely ignored context given in the issues, because Jean was not Phoenix and stated she was actively keeping the Phoenix away from her so that it couldn't replace her.